Why did AC fall?

[outlander]

What do you think was the biggest single factor in the fall of AC?

Just too badly outnumbered.

Redcloak was too good a commander.

The titanium elementals breeching the wall.

Xykon was too much of an ubercharacter.

Miko wasn't there to defend it.

[WutAmI]

Miko wasn't there to defend it.

Oh, she was there. She was there to screw everyone over.

[Athalos]

All of the above?

[Nathander]

A lot of it had to do with how little time the city even had to prepare (which was, what, a day? A day and a half?) And, right after they hear that they're going to war, they're currently leader is killed by the most powerful member of the Sapphire Guard, causing her to fall. They were suffering horribly morale-wise, and the desertion of all those soldiers when Redcloak led the charge was far too much of a loss for the city, which needed all of it's soldiers in any attempt to defend against Xykon and Redcloak's assault.

And, of course, the fact that they were led by a nigh-epic level lich sorcerer helped tilt in towards Xykon's favor. Really, one of the major turning points that could have helped would have been if Soon had succeeded in killing Redcloak and Xykon, which would have struck a horrible blow to the hobgoblins morale to see their leaders dead (and, in Xykon's case, destroyed), and could have possibly caused them to go into panic and retreat, or at least have made them easier to route. And we all know how that turned out.

Hinjo, for his part, while intelligent and capable of leading, made poor decisions for the battle, primarily allowing the release of high-level characters in prison who hadn't committed capital crimes. Considering this led to the release of an assassin after Hinjo and a Mystic Theurge who wanted to destroy the city, and the only one not betraying his trust being Belkar, Hinjo actually helped weaken his city's chance for survival.

All in all, there was simply too much stacked against them to allow them a victory.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

6. Rich wanted AC to fall?

[TheNovak]

You must've played a Kensai in 2E, because you sure love killing the magic.

Also, to the OP: all of the above, except for Miko.

[Gitman00]

What do you think was the biggest single factor in the fall of AC?

Just too badly outnumbered.

Redcloak was too good a commander.

The titanium elementals breeching the wall.

Xykon was too much of an ubercharacter.

Miko wasn't there to defend it.

Well, as Nathander astutely pointed out, there were a whole lot of reasons for AC's fall. But, since you're wondering about the largest single factor, I'd have to go with the breach in the wall. It was a very shrewd move by Redcloak to heave elementals at the wall for the opening salvos, and it made the rest of the victory possible. Had Vaarsuvius not been there with the dismissal scrolls, the elementals would have been there for a good 18-20 rounds, methinks, since nothing else was damaging them, but they did enough damage even in the 3-4 rounds they had. Without the breach in the wall, there's no ramp of hobgoblin bodies for the death knight to ascend, no glorious charge on the fiendish mammoth, and no panicking Azure City soldiers when they see the army coming in.

[Tor the Fallen]

Oh, she was there. She was there to screw everyone over.

Right, as the OP stated, she was not there to defend it.

[edit]
The bouncing ball of symbol of insanity was probably the most decisive part, as it led to AC losing all their high level troops in a single round.

[Aquillion]

...which leads to a corollary: Azure City fell because V banned Conjurations. One application of Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron would've sealed that breach right up.

(And that's ignoring what a Cloudkill could've done to the invading forces when they mass-assaulted it...)

[Tawkis]

Plot demanded it?

But as the above have said the Breach, or perhaps the Titanium elementals we the single largest reason the city fell.

[Chronos]

I think that crediting the titanium elementals is missing the forest for the trees. Azure City fell because Redcloak was too tactically clever for them. The titanium elementals were just one manifestation of Redcloak's cleverness. The way things turned out, they were the most decisive, but if they had failed for some reason (like, say, a high-level wizard using Wall of Stone to repair the breaches), he would have come up with something else the heroes weren't prepared for.

[Kreistor]

The answer is, of course, because Rich wanted it to fall.

But that answer is unsatisfying, of course. So...

1) Shojo died.

With Shojo's death, the nobility and their retinues abandoned the city. This had three effects.
a) Loss of effective defenders. Their retinues include bodyguards and probably wizards who could have assisted directly.
b) The nobles' ninja could have been directed at enemy commanders instead of Hinjo.
c) Clearly their abandonment had negative effects on morale, as can be seen when half the defenders left the breach.

2) Redcloak was very smart.

Redcloak's elementals made a breach that should have taken a day to create. By the rules, the elementals should not have been capable of doing so much damage in so short a time, but here's where the Giant overplayed it.

Normal sieges of this type would not have seen the first assault succeed. It might seem a good idea to make a broad assault, but that only works when the defenders can't defend the entire wall. Early on, the AC would have enough to do that, so all that attack does is increase the numbers of attackers dying. The problem with a wall is that only a small group can defend a single section, while the attackers can place hordes in position to attack that section. Concentration increases deaths for the defenders while not significantly increasing attacker deaths. Anyway, the Giant made it work anyway.

3) A lack of real world effects.

30000 soldiers are a real problem. They need lots of food. Truckloads per day. You don't find that scavenging or foraging. It takes supply trains and organization. We never see that.

Disease kills more siegers than anything else. The demands of such a situation caused dysentry, typhoid, and other deadly infections. Handwaved away.

For the defenders, significant deaths from famine don't happen until stores are worn down, and that was a long way away off for AC which was only seiged for one day.

30000 troops move little more than 10 miles a day. Individual units can make 20, but huge armies have huge difficulties slowing them down. Faced with such a plodding movement, there's no way such a large army could have gotten to within one day of AC without raising tremendous amounts of notice. A single rider on a single horse is all it takes. And the devastation in the wake? That leaves its own evidence for someone to stumble upon.

Anyway, lots of things shouldn't have happened this way. It still should have gone in Redcloak's favour, but not this quickly.

[David Argall]

As others have suggested, the prime reason was that the plot was going to go that way. Accordingly, the defenders had no scrolls of Wall of this or that, and no other protections that are fairly obvious to the typical D&D player who spends a day looking over the rules, while the attackers were allowed to play fast and loose with the rules.

Now as to the listed factors...

Just too badly outnumbered.- No, 3-1 is no advantage at all in a siege. In fact the attackers are actually "outnumbered" because they simply can't use most of their troops. 10 men on a ladder are stopped by the 1 foe at the top.

Redcloak was too good a commander. - Well, more precisely the defenders were too bad. Hinjo seems to have done almost nothing during the battle. In particular we see a mass of troops behind the wall, who apparently spend the entire battle standing there, and do not go down to support the troops at the breech.

The titanium elementals breeching the wall. - If the story had stretched over a more realistic month or two, the attackers would have managed to beat down those walls. Of course by then, the lich might have gotten bored and killed half of his army, or it might have run out of food or... But breeching the walls is one of the prime tactics in a siege.

Xykon was too much of an ubercharacter. - the lich did very little in the fight. He largely just killed some backup troops who were not going to get into the fight unless it was lost.

Miko wasn't there to defend it. - If we consider all points, she was a very big negative. The deserting nobles would have hesitated to run if Shojo had been in charge still, and even with him in jail, they would have worried and might have stayed. But they had pledged no loyalty to Hinjo, and so were free to flee.
Hinjo in turn was unwise not to put her on the front lines to fight. This was a standard punishment for traitors anyway. You got rid of the traitor and gained a trooper. And you put her sort of level at the breech and it could be quite enough by itself to block that attack. Recall here that Miko is much better than Belkar and the loss of paladin specials doesn't change that. So you are looking at 100 hobs dead off the front line where they are useful, minimum.

[slayerx]

...which leads to a corollary: Azure City fell because V banned Conjurations. One application of Wall of Stone or Wall of Iron would've sealed that breach right up.

(And that's ignoring what a Cloudkill could've done to the invading forces when they mass-assaulted it...)

Ya, not to mention, V could have possibly prepared some scrolls or something to reinforce the walls by placing iron or stone behind the existing walls to make them harder to breach, all before the attack happened...

Y'know, it's kinda funny thinking of some of the things that V could have done if she had Conjuration... One thing is summoning a wall of iron, but not nailing it down... have the AC soliders give it one nice shove when the hobgoblins are bunched up ad all the hobgoblins underneath it goes squish... with the hobgoblins all bunched up and the wall covering a i think 230ft (which can be doubled by halving the thickness), that's alot of dead hobgoblins in just one attack...

Grant it, thinking of it now, shouldn't Durkon be able to Cast Wall of Stone if he prepared it? i think it is both a cleric and a wizard spell... hmm...

[EyethatBinds]

To those who say that the army needs food/supplies this isn't true in D&D. A living creature of any size can live off of a single bowl of gruel every three days because that is when starvation effects kick in. The hobgoblins don't need tents or blankets to sleep with since there aren't any rules governing those either. And because none of the hobgoblins were fighting a creature with disease special attacks they were at zero risk of catching anything.
Hope that helps you folk who want to kill catgirls. The rules are there to tell you what the consequences of your actions are. With no rule there is no consequence.

[J.Gellert]

I am thinking mostly low morale, and inability to utilize their strongest assets.

That is, Roy got himself killed fighting a losing battle while he could have done at least as much damage as Belkar did. And if they were together, they would have done even more than double that damage (watching each other's backs. Well maybe Belkar not so much).

Catapults do not matter so much when the enemy just storms in. However, they could have defended better the breach. Is it because of the elementals? No. Rocks would have demolished it sooner or later. But when you have one breach, how hard would it be to defend it? The battle is not fought around all 7 gates of Thebes... 30.000 Hobgoblins are trying to get in through one small hole; well send all you have there, and hope they break morale.

Three to one is not such terrible odds when defending a breach. One warrior in plate armor, using cover, and backed by clerics, can easily kill three hobgoblins before going down. They should have stayed and fight.

On another note, Xykon didn't do half as much as what he could have done. He wasted all his spells on things he could not hurt in the first place. Yes he killed the Sapphire Guard very cost-effectively with the bouncing ball, and then he ruined it. The single best thing he did was keep Roy busy (and killing him, but more importantly, keeping him busy).

[Kreistor]

Just too badly outnumbered.- No, 3-1 is no advantage at all in a siege. In fact the attackers are actually "outnumbered" because they simply can't use most of their troops. 10 men on a ladder are stopped by the 1 foe at the top.

Sun Tzu disagrees. I believe 5:1 is the ratio he suggests for attacking a city, but only if you have no choice, and that was from an age before siege engines that could bring down walls. (He loathed the very concept of besieging cities. Too wasteful for both sides.)

To deal with that ladder, the man on the wall had to expose himself to fire from below. and it simply isn't that easy to stop a rank of men attacking up a ladder. He can still defend himself, and if he's injured or killed, the defender becomes an impediment for his replacement to get to position to replace him.

The fact is: cities were captured with ladders. Yes, it was expensive on troops, but it did work.

[Baalzebub]

6. Rich wanted AC to fall?

No way! How could that have happened?

No, seriously, AC was badly outnumbered.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Yeah, really, no Miko was a very bad thing for them. If they tossed her into the middle of the enemy troops, she'd rampage through them like some kind of not-as-hairy, bootwearing goddess of war. She evidently is at least level 14+, somewhere in there, and definately wouldn't hesitate to kill any goblin in her way. Granted, later, she might go after the order, but by the time she gets back into the city, things would have resolved themselves pretty quickly. Soon would have killed the enemy leaders, morale would be down, and then things would have been simplistic. Killing a couple thousand hobbos? Great cleave is your friend.

[ThorFluff]

alot of stuff that could have caused AC to win never happend, Excluding the morale and lack of troops and leadership caused by poor mikos misguided actions. , such as
a: V does not have Conjuration spells. I mean, Acid Cloud? Incendiary Cloud? wall of iron, or why not force?
b: Roy, instead of agreeing to being put down somewhere where he could be useful decided not to, and die instead.
c: Belkar, MoJ.
d: Haley should have set traps!
e: Durkon, didn't see him cast a singel spell, i mean, isn't he high enough lvl for sunburst soon ?
f: Elan, should'a been singing all along, and casting spells whenever possible.

I mean, if optimized for it, Oots could turned this battle around by themselves!

[TreesOfDeath]

Plot requires it, but mind ignoring that:

1) AC was hopelessly out numbered
2) High level evil npcs and those monsters

Thats all, really.

[TerraNova]

I would say it was chiefly because of Miko.

Now, usually i am pretty much in favor of Miko as a (tragic) character, but her killing of Shojo was probably the deciding factor. Not because it "deprived AC of its most valuable defender", even though she'd probably have had a few words to say about it, but because of the effect it had on the overall city morale. Shojo was playing the senile fool, but had all the cards in hand well enough. Hinjo, on the other hand... well, Ninja Assassins are one thing, but the nobles outright deserting the city is another. This was a serious dent in their forces above and beyond the numbers being against them anyway. Must have done wonders for the remaining soldiers as well.

Elans "speech" didn't help in this respect, either.

[evileeyore]

The Hob Army had a really high THAC0...

[Mariana]

I'd say 'Logic' defeated Azure City.

How many times and in how many histories have we seen the "outnumbered few, but brave" win against the ridiculously greater army ? It's a terrible cliche. So here in Oots, where cliches tend to be destroyed by humor, logic prevailed, and the massive army won, even if it's general was wasting his troops during most (most, not all) of the the battle.

[squidthingy]

What do you think was the biggest single factor in the fall of AC?

The bouncing ball of incanity, if it weren't for that the paladins would of totaly kicked xykon's ass, or even if xykon was able to deafet them he would of been weakened enough where soon and the other paladins ghost would have defeated him easily

[ThorFluff]

He could a flew outside the castle, while using greater invidibility and bombarded them to hell.
Or just like, Widend, Maximised, cone of cold- them into icy little blocks, the guys a lvl 20 lich sorc! no Amount of foes is going to beat him, just someone with high enough HD

[chibibar]

It is a lot of factor. But I think the most important factor that cause the whole thing to fall..

Miko's existence :) she cause the whole thing to fall cause she is totally delusional person and unstable character.

Of course we could have played "what if" game but I personally think if the nobles didn't leave, the AC forces wouldn't have been so outnumbered. And the only reason Nobles leave because of Miko killing Shojo :)

[squidthingy]

He could a flew outside the castle, while using greater invidibility and bombarded them to hell.
Or just like, Widend, Maximised, cone of cold- them into icy little blocks, the guys a lvl 20 lich sorc! no Amount of foes is going to beat him, just someone with high enough HD

than he would of been out of spells to fight the ghost mayrts and would have been defeated before miko showed up

[F.H. Zebedee]

Indeed, the deserting nobles, IIRC, took like 1/3 of the effective military force of the city with them. That was an immense loss... And if Shojo had not died, they would have also had an undistracted, full force Hinjo and an unfallen Miko on the front lines, two characters that are level 12+. As it is, they had a distracted Hinjo instead, who can't fight as well due to leading all his little troops.

[gatitcz]

The Hob Army had a really high THAC0...

Heh, I was thinking the same thing.

But other than that, I'm guessing that all the gates are going to be destroyed eventually, and that was the only way to get to Azure City's.

[Sky_Schemer]

I'd say it's almost exclusively plot. The deck was stacked against them and they weren't given the chance to really put up a fight. It's hard to believe there was no one in the entire city without the ability to Wall of Stone those breaches. Or to take down Tsukkiko (how did they capture her in the first place?). Or to give Redcloak a real challenge. Aside from V, there's no evidence that any spells were fired in the other direction.

No, the city was supposed to fall for the purpose of the story, and so it did. We were just presented with a mostly plausible telling of how.

[chibibar]

I'd say it's almost exclusively plot. The deck was stacked against them and they weren't given the chance to really put up a fight. It's hard to believe there was no one in the entire city without the ability to Wall of Stone those breaches. Or to take down Tsukkiko (how did they capture her in the first place?). Or to give Redcloak a real challenge. Aside from V, there's no evidence that any spells were fired in the other direction.

No, the city was supposed to fall for the purpose of the story, and so it did. We were just presented with a mostly plausible telling of how.

Maybe it was Miko who caught her ;)

[rashambo]

It was Redcloak's planning. Miko was a thorn in the plan, if she hadn't been so irrational, Xykon and Redcloak would have bought the farm. But AC would have still fallen since they were just totally overrun.

[dehro]

I'd say 'Logic' defeated Azure City.

How many times and in how many histories have we seen the "outnumbered few, but brave" win against the ridiculously greater army ? It's a terrible cliche. So here in Oots, where cliches tend to be destroyed by humor, logic prevailed, and the massive army won, even if it's general was wasting his troops during most (most, not all) of the the battle.

it's a cliché that has actually worked quite well on a number of occasions, before becoming a cliché... which is why it actually became one.

in open field you are totally right...but that's exactly why fortifications, huge walls and castles where made all along the middle ages: to allow a small number of armed men to survive (and I repeat survive, not necessarily win a battle..sometimes also drawing out things is enough to force theenemy to retreat) to the assault of larger armies.
fighting uphill, standing on a wobbly ladder, under the fire of arrows, stones and boiling water coming from above, is quite different from fighting on open ground, surrounded by a wall of shields.

things could have gone quite differently, had the full force of AC been at the disposal of a clearly estabilished leader. (admittedly, also having to fight against the necessities of the plot has been a major issue, since in fact, many things pointed out by some of you are indeed "unrealistically left out of the picture"...supplies, the sheer sound and visibility of a huge army, etc. etc.)...if the giant had given AC a fair chance, things might have turned out to be taking quite longer , if not be different in the outcome.
but, of course, the plot must follow it's course.

[The Wanderer]

A lot of stuff happened before the battle to influence the outcome, (most notably Shojo's death/the nobles abandoning the city), but if we're talking about specific events that happened in the battle, it all comes down to one thing: the massive breaches in the walls. I must have said it a hundred times in the various discussion and who's winning threads, but when a medieval city gets its walls breached, it is a dead duck. At that moment it turns from a battle to a sack, and sacks consist almost entirely of wholesale slaughter. (And rape, murdering children, burning buildings, etc).

Perhaps if there was only one breach there is a very slight chance it could have been defended heavily enough to continue repelling the besiegers from it, but there's no way it could be done with five such holes. (And the further damage done to the wall by the elementals before they they could be dismissed/defeated).

Hell, just think how quickly the city would have fallen if the ORder hadn't been there, or if Redcloak had cared from the start. In fact, even if V just hadn't been present, that breach would have been overrun far soon, and Hobs would have been pouring into the city. Or if, instead of going for the throne room, Xykon was hitting the defenders on the wall with Meteor Storms and fireballs and such.

The city had a chance as long as its walls were intact. As soon as they had holes in the wall, it was only a matter of time.

[BisectedBrioche]

Because it was caught flatfooted and lost its dexterity bonus.

[LCR]

Because it was caught flatfooted and lost its dexterity bonus.

You win, of course.

[Chronos]

e: Durkon, didn't see him cast a singel spell, i mean, isn't he high enough lvl for sunburst soon ?Sunburst is a pretty good spell for a battlefield (large area of effect, and enough damage to kill most 1st-levels), but on thinking about it, Durkon probably had one much better available. He probably has Air as one of his domains (explaining how he can cast Thor's Lightning and use a scroll of Control Weather), and he's certainly at least 11th level, which means he can cast Control Winds. Azure City is built in a pass between mountains next to the seashore, which means that the prevailing winds are almost certainly Moderate to Strong. That means that Durkon could have created a circle over a thousand feet across, centered on him, of hurricane or tornado force winds. Just get him into the center of the enemy army (an Invisibility spell, courtesy of V, would help a lot here), and cast Control Winds with an eye around himself. With hurricane-force winds, he'd be able to batter most of the enemy hobgoblins into unconsciousness, and with tornado-force winds, he could kill them outright.

To be fair, though, he did cast some spells. He squashed the Huecueva using Thor's Might, and he cast a few buffs on Roy before he leaped onto the dragon. He just didn't cast spells as effectively as he might have.

[chibibar]

Also the problem we have now is that we are looking from hindsight also most of us had time to "research" the situation.

This comic portrays the perfect gaming session and trying to use character knowledge only (no 4th wall or player knowledge) as much to do what they can in given situation. We the reader knows what is going on in the throneroom, the breach and the battlefield, but the character doesn't know what they can see or told otherwise.

The battle communication is VERY limited which is a major issue in large scale battle.

[Ganurath]

Just too badly outnumbered.Three men to ten hobgoblins is duable if you have a superior strategic mind. Therefore, the reason AC fell first and last is...
Redcloak was too good a commander.He probably would have suffered substantially fewer casualties if he had sent undead to the wall and sent all his hobgoblins up the breach, with freshly summoned support breaking the initial defenders. Perhaps the star pitcher, MitD?
The titanium elementals breeching the wall....Was part of Redcloak's brilliant strategic workings.
Xykon was too much of an ubercharacter....Who only demonstrated competence when working within the general parameters of Redcloak's plan. He practically needed Redcloak to hold his hand through the fight with the Ghost-Martyrs.
Miko wasn't there to defend it....No.

[RobbyPants]

What do you think was the biggest single factor in the fall of AC?
The castle and a huge portion of the city blew up. :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'd put it down to lack of preperation and an inexperianced commander.

To work out why Azure City fell I'll look at how you win sieges.

1. Determination. This is pretty much what decieded Stalingrad. If you're men don't want to survive at all costs they won't survive.

2. Supply lines. You need to be able to survive even when surrounded. Azure City had a port but wasted it on evacuating civilians.

3. Fortifications. You have to use your fortifications to your advantage in order to minimise the enemy's numbers.

4. Endurance. You have to be able to out last your enemies. You have to make it so that your enemy is risking something by continuing the siege.

How I would have won the battle.

1. I would have slowed down the troops so that reinforcements could arrive.

2. I wouldn't have wasted my Paladins by keeping them it a room. He had at least 20 paladins, who give moral bonuses against fear to people around them. That would have been useful when everyone was panicking.

3. I would guard the thone room better. I would have heavily enchanted it. As well as consecrating the throne room I would have put a permanent anti-magic field around all the entrances. I would have reinforced the walls with magic. I would make it so that the enemy would have to take the castle to enter. This would mean that I could leave the castle unguarded and only fall back to it when I lost the walls.

4. I wouldn't have sent away the Civilians. I would only have allowed people to leave if I couldn't feed them or if they were going to get supplies. If the commoners couldn't leave the nobles wouldn't be able to and would have to work with me. The commoners would be useful as fire fighters and cooks. Also, the soldiers would have more insentive to fight if their loved ones were in more immediate danger.

[Khoran]

Here is why the city fell, in no perticular order

Miko killed Shojo, which meant that Azure City had to sware in a new leader right away with little experiance.
The Nobility abandoned their city, and I'd imagine they took their personal armies sworn to them with them.
Redcloak had suppirior numbers. Once he wizened up and decided to charge the hole, it was over.
Julio Scoundrel just recently attacked this city. They actually make a joke about it here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html

[EvilJames]

Sun Tzu disagrees. I believe 5:1 is the ratio he suggests for attacking a city, but only if you have no choice, and that was from an age before siege engines that could bring down walls. (He loathed the very concept of besieging cities. Too wasteful for both sides.)

To deal with that ladder, the man on the wall had to expose himself to fire from below. and it simply isn't that easy to stop a rank of men attacking up a ladder. He can still defend himself, and if he's injured or killed, the defender becomes an impediment for his replacement to get to position to replace him.

The fact is: cities were captured with ladders. Yes, it was expensive on troops, but it did work.

Um... I'm confused it looks like Sun Tzu would agree that 3:1 isn't an advantage then (which is what the person you qouted said) if 5:1 is the prefered ratio then 3:1 would be a bad ratio in a seige.

Yes ladders were useful and did take walls but they took time because they could be shoved away (defenders had a special Y tool to minimize their own exposure. Persistance is what allows ladders to be successful, siege towers work better for this but they move really slowly where as ladders are much more portable.

[TiamatRoar]

Azure City supposedly had more low level casters and mid level casters according to Red Cloak. Yet none of those casters seemed to actually DO anything.

On the other hand, Red Cloak had flying zombies. And none of those seemed to do anything, either.

I do have to wonder why Hinjo placed the arcane casters back at the castles instead of at the walls where they could have actually DONE something. Ditto for the lower level paladins being in the city instead of at the walls. Also, why did it take so long to start firing the catapults? Scoundrel didn't break all of them, after all.

[chibibar]

Azure City supposedly had more low level casters and mid level casters according to Red Cloak. Yet none of those casters seemed to actually DO anything.

On the other hand, Red Cloak had flying zombies. And none of those seemed to do anything, either.

I do have to wonder why Hinjo placed the arcane casters back at the castles instead of at the walls where they could have actually DONE something. Ditto for the lower level paladins being in the city instead of at the walls. Also, why did it take so long to start firing the catapults? Scoundrel didn't break all of them, after all.
He broke the one that was magically tied to the other catapults :)

[Sky_Schemer]

I must have said it a hundred times in the various discussion and who's winning threads, but when a medieval city gets its walls breached, it is a dead duck.

Well, obviously.

But the point here is that the plot prevented them from fixing the holes. I mean, do you honestly believe that any walled city of this size with these resources would not have some means of repairing a breach in a wall? It's not like Wall of Stone is some great secret.

AC fell because the story said it had to. The holes in the wall are just the justification.

[Green Bean]

Azure City supposedly had more low level casters and mid level casters according to Red Cloak. Yet none of those casters seemed to actually DO anything.

On the other hand, Red Cloak had flying zombies. And none of those seemed to do anything, either.

I do have to wonder why Hinjo placed the arcane casters back at the castles instead of at the walls where they could have actually DONE something. Ditto for the lower level paladins being in the city instead of at the walls. Also, why did it take so long to start firing the catapults? Scoundrel didn't break all of them, after all.

I figure we didn't see much of AC's magic because most of them were low level. Spells like Aid, or Bless don't 'show up' from out perspective, unlike fireballs or lightning bolts. So it was there, but we couldn't see it.

[tamashii]

I think it fell because there were too many issues from the inside. People switching sides. Soldiers leaving. People not working together as effectively as they could have.

[Nemal]

Don't forget that hobgoblins are superior to humans as soldiers, stat-wise, if I recall correctly.

[TheNovak]

Technically, I think they're both CR1/2...but Hobbos get bonuses to Dexterity and Constitution. A 1st level human warrior gets a bonus feat and some skill points; not really an even trade.

[Chronos]

Closet_Skeleton, I think your analysis falls a bit short, in this specific case. Endurance and supply lines are very important in a protracted siege, but this battle took less than a day. I'm certain that Azure City had enough supplies stockpiled to last a single day. And even if the siege had gone longer, what's the problem with sending the civilians away? Civilians aren't taking up any space on the incoming ships, only the outgoing ones. What would you have filled the outgoing ships with, instead?

On your specific suggestions:
1: How would you have slowed down the enemy troops? That's certainly a worthwhile goal, if you have a way to do it, but you need to be a little more specific.
2 and 3: You're simultaneously saying to protect the throne room better, and to take away its most effective defense. Xykon was well-prepared to deal with reinforced walls and magical wards, but the paladins almost finished him off.
4: Why would keeping the commoners around constrain the nobles from leaving? The impression I got of the Azure City nobles is that they would have preferred to be free of the dead weight commoners taking up space on their yachts. And deliberately keeping your soldiers' families in danger to encourage them to fight harder isn't exactly a great idea, when your elite force (and the lord of the city) is composed of paladins.

[PirateMonk]

I think that, beyond plot, was the plot's main manifestation: bad luck.

First of all, Miko and Hinjo happened to learn of Shojo's deceptions just when a huge army was on its way. And that army happened to have a high level lich and be lead by as brilliant a strategist as Redcloak.

Of course, if Shojo had survived, things might be tricky: if the nobles have stayed, the OOTS might have just grabbed a teleporting wizard and defeated the death knight, the Eye, and the huecuva before Haley had time to figure out the "shell game," leaving Xykon to attack the palace with his mount, and remain invisible.


2 and 3: You're simultaneously saying to protect the throne room better, and to take away its most effective defense. Xykon was well-prepared to deal with reinforced walls and magical wards, but the paladins almost finished him off.

Um... no. The paladins got killed in one round. The ghost-martyrs did real damage, but there is no indication that they were anywhere near destroying his body. And I agree with CS, the paladins would have done more good elsewhere, though finding substitute defenders would be difficult.

[....]

The Hob Army had a really high THAC0...


High THAC0 is a bad thing...

[comicadv]

Simple:

Xykon had a freak'n huge army, they had a castle, it was pretty straight-forward.

[Milandros]

The hobgoblins had:

1. Massively superior numbers. Yes, of course, in pre-gunpowder non-magical societies three to one against a fortified position isn't that great odds, etc etc, but we're talking about an enemy with invisible zombie dragons, flying zombie troops, inifinite fireball supplies and massive elementals here. Normal real-world numbers don't apply.

2. Decent, non-moronic leadership. Redcloak didn't just pour waves of troops against the walls until they were all dead. He used decoys, clever magics, infiltrators to open gates, etc. That's not to say Hinjo was a bad leader - all his "poor decisions" are based purely on hindsight, and even supposed mistakes like letting the prisoners out to fight worked out positive overall, thanks to Belkar - but considering what he had to work with, he didn't get that much of a chance.

3. At least equal and probably superior firepower/magic. There are an awful lot of hobgoblin clerics around, and Redcloak seems to have been a better and more capable combat cleric than anything AC had.

4. Xykon. By far the most powerful character present, Xykon takes out most of the Sapphire Guard in one go. He takes out Sangwan, one of AC's high level characters, in a single attack, almost incidentally. He takes out Roy, the highest level fighter AC has.

5. Treason. The AC nobles do their best to ensure that Hinjo dies and the city falls. They move their troops out. When Hinjo goes to try to stem the breach, they attack him in an attempt to kill him and ensure that the city falls - so the Daimo can be a "big hero" and "liberate" what's left of it.

6. Miko. One could argue that she should have been allowed to fight; however, it's far too likely that her first act would have been to cut down Hinjo and the OOtS "traitors". In the end, she turned a slight victory into a desperate-well-we-didn't-lose for the Sapphire Guard, and into a loss for AC as a whole.

7. Morale. The hobgoblins were really pumped up, the city forces defeated mentally before they even began. While Elan didn't help much, the real problem was again Miko. Shojo's death lead to all sorts of rumours and unhappiness, not to mention the noble's withdrawal from the city.

8. Good luck - had that catapault stone landed 50 metres away, Redcloak wouldn't have noticed it and would still be smiling at the hobgoblins dying in droves, wouldn't have had his damascene revelation and wouldn't yet have entered the city. The breach would have been held and reinforced. Belkar might well have broken the morale of the other attack. The Sapphire Guard would probably have killed Xykon before Miko entered the throne room, the castle wouldn't have exploded and things could be looking very different. If Redcloak had failed his save before the chief cleric of the 9 gods as well, things might look different.

All in all, thing's just didn't work for the good guys today. The bad guys rolled too many critical successes, the good guys failed too many rolls. It ,might have gone the other way, but the odds were definitely against AC from the start.

[TheNovak]

Reading more posts here, I think I might've narrowed down the most important turning point in the battle: the boulder killing the hobgoblin. Check it out:

1) Had Redcloak not charged, the breach would have held until reinforcements arrived. His change of philosophy absolutely crushed the spine of AC's defenses; once the attackers are inside your walls, their numbers start counting for even more.

2) Had Redcloak not charged, he wouldn't have summoned the Chlorine Elemental, and Tsukiko wouldn't have damaged the prison with her spells. If Tsukiko hadn't damaged the prison, Miko's cell wouldn't have been damaged (and the Linear Guild wouldn't have escaped, but that didn't have any real impact on the battle). If Miko hadn't gotten free, she wouldn't have seen Soon fighting Xykon and destroyed the gate. If the gate hadn't gone kablooey, Xykon would've been destroyed and the clerics and others still in the main keep (with Ghost-Soon) would have been able to hold out against the hobgoblins for at least three days (yay starvation rules).

3) Here's one thing that went in favor of the Good Guys. If Redcloak hadn't charged, Xykon would've still reached the throne room and pwned the Sapphire Guard, but the sudden appearance of the Ghost Martyrs would have (and did) kicked his skeletal butt. If Redcloak didn't arrive, he would have been defeated (though the phylactery would have been out of harm's way). Had Xykon been defeated, the Ghost Martyrs would (possibly) have been confined to the throne room. The hobgoblins would have still likely won the battle outside, but the main keep would be pretty much invincible from the 8th Floor down. After a week or two, Xykon would have reformed and been better prepared for the battle; together, he and Redcloak could have destroyed the Ghost Martyrs and claimed the undestroyed gate.

So...the single biggest contributing factor to how the battle played out was the sacrifice of some poor, nameless hobgoblin. Way to go, dude; with your death, you screwed Azure City, but saved the world.

[JaxGaret]

Simple:

Xykon had a freak'n huge army, they had a castle, it was pretty straight-forward.

Heh. I love Xykon.


On topic: Miko dominates the field for her all-around 'contribution' with a minor in Redcloak kicking major ass.

[JaxGaret]

Heh. I love Xykon.


On topic: Miko dominates the field for her all-around 'contribution' with a minor in Redcloak kicking major ass.

Whoa ho ho, check this out:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html

Xykon is the one that engineered Miko's survival beyond being caught by X & R, which lead to all her 'good' work in AC. And combined with the waste-laying he accomplished during the battle, I'm going to up his status in this regard.

So I call co-MVPs of taking down AC: Sirs Xykon and Redcloak.

[2.5 cats]

The entire story before the battle pointed to AC falling.

I know this thread is about the biggest factor, but a few other things haven't been mentioned

- Remember AC's best wizard, the one who could cast teleport? Eaten by the roc and the city is attacked the day which he would otherwise get raised.

- The catapults being burned up by Scoundrel.

- Tactical surprise by Xykon's army.

- And, as others have mentioned, Miko killing Shojo and the myriad of bad consequences from that.

All that said, the defenders of AC made a few big mistakes. In addition to the obvious one of not having a spell to repair the wall or at least kill most anything that tried to get through, they were nuts to have their heavies all up on the wall, with only Varsuvius (by accident) defending the largest breach. As soon as that massive hole (and it was the only hole that was fairly close to the ground) appeared, Hinjo should have immediately sent the OOTS to defend that point.

And while the paladins were bound by oath to defend the throne room, the high-level clerics needed to be further forward where the action was. One of them might have had a spell that could've saved the day.

Still with such a large hole in the wall, it might have turned into a longer battle of attrition. This would normally favor the side with more troops, but with Xykon dead from attacking the throne room and Beklar with his pet flamethrower AC might well have had a great shot.

Oh, one thing, though. Regarding a wall of stone/iron/force/etc. (Or, for that matter, some cool Durkon spells suggested above), couldn't they have been dispelled by Redcloak?

[EvilElitest]

The bouncing ball of incanity, if it weren't for that the paladins would of totaly kicked xykon's ass, or even if xykon was able to deafet them he would of been weakened enough where soon and the other paladins ghost would have defeated him easily

Not really no, Xykon could have easily destroy the SG without expanding many spell, the bouncy ball in fact was a bad idea, he should have used that against the basic troops in the breach


Now what destroy AC
Under Moral
1. Lack of orginization. AC's moral seemed really easy to break, because the city wasn't unified enough.
2. The Soilder's were not aware of how important this fight was. Nobody other than hte SG was, Hinjo should have made the importance of this battle far more clear, so the nobel and the basic troops wouldn't retreat
3. Shojo was dead
4. With the nobles gone, a massive loss in moral as well as troops and resources. Most of the Nobles i would imagine would hire high level guards and their ninja's could have taken out hte Hob clerics
5. Shojo's death was not made clear, aka the commoners just thought this was a noble's fight
6. Elan's speech
Under resources
1. Really, they should have had a better warning system, for more time
2. The city's artillery was destroyed
3. Most of the SG was out wandering, if they had been withdrawn
4. out numbered
5. Hobgoblins are at least equal to an adverage NPC warrior,
I think Hinjo's biggest problem was bad NPC management
1. The clerics (high priest and all that) should have been at the wall defending
2. The paladins should have been at the breach, imagine the damage they could have done
3. That wizard should have been brought back to life, so that he could fight, once V ran out of spells
4. OOTS ether should have held the throne room, or been placed in the breach, Thor's Might would have been useful their.
5. Roy should have been put in charge of the defence, him and V seem to be the best tatic people
6. Miko should have been placed that cell that Belkar was put into to avoid escaping, or just thrown into the enemy mass
7. Out freaky eyed undead loving friend should have been placed in the breach as well
8. They could have used Thog to fight, he is a very high level character and easy to control
9. When the giant soilders were holding hte breach, the other guys in the back should have been on the wall firing arrows or right behind the giants ready to take on the ghasts once hte death knight went past
from,
EE
5.

[Chronos]

Oh, one thing, though. Regarding a wall of stone/iron/force/etc. (Or, for that matter, some cool Durkon spells suggested above), couldn't they have been dispelled by Redcloak?Actually, no. Wall of Stone and Wall of Iron are both instantaneous duration, which means that as soon as the spell is cast, the magic departs, leaving behind a perfectly ordinary stone or iron wall. And Wall of Force has as a special property that it's immune to Dispel Magic (but its duration is way too short to be of use here, being only 1 round per level).

For Durkon's spells, Sunburst is instantaneous, but he almost certainly can't cast it (it's too high level, and there's no reason to believe he has the Sun domain). Control Wind could be dispelled, but a caster would have to get close enough to do so, and figure out what was going on. And it would only take a few rounds to do some major damage to the army.

[Thorin]

Not really no, Xykon could have easily destroy the SG without expanding many spell, the bouncy ball in fact was a bad idea, he should have used that against the basic troops in the breach


Now what destroy AC
Under Moral
1. Lack of orginization. AC's moral seemed really easy to break, because the city wasn't unified enough.
2. The Soilder's were not aware of how important this fight was. Nobody other than hte SG was, Hinjo should have made the importance of this battle far more clear, so the nobel and the basic troops wouldn't retreat
3. Shojo was dead
4. With the nobles gone, a massive loss in moral as well as troops and resources. Most of the Nobles i would imagine would hire high level guards and their ninja's could have taken out hte Hob clerics
5. Shojo's death was not made clear, aka the commoners just thought this was a noble's fight
6. Elan's speech
Under resources
1. Really, they should have had a better warning system, for more time
2. The city's artillery was destroyed
3. Most of the SG was out wandering, if they had been withdrawn
4. out numbered
5. Hobgoblins are at least equal to an adverage NPC warrior,
I think Hinjo's biggest problem was bad NPC management
1. The clerics (high priest and all that) should have been at the wall defending
2. The paladins should have been at the breach, imagine the damage they could have done
3. That wizard should have been brought back to life, so that he could fight, once V ran out of spells
4. OOTS ether should have held the throne room, or been placed in the breach, Thor's Might would have been useful their.
5. Roy should have been put in charge of the defence, him and V seem to be the best tatic people
6. Miko should have been placed that cell that Belkar was put into to avoid escaping, or just thrown into the enemy mass
7. Out freaky eyed undead loving friend should have been placed in the breach as well
8. They could have used Thog to fight, he is a very high level character and easy to control
9. When the giant soilders were holding hte breach, the other guys in the back should have been on the wall firing arrows or right behind the giants ready to take on the ghasts once hte death knight went past
from,
EE
5.

Full of ideas, are you not?

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

I think a namless Hobgoblin aide-de-camp is the true hero of this battle. He must have a statue in the Red City, :redcloak:, despite all his tactical genius might just have been splattered under a rock.

As mentioned before, up to that point, the force attacking the walls was not really expected to be as succesfull, maybe not expected to accomplish anything at all. They just had to give a good battle to the defenders in order to keep them occupied. Basically, Redcloak's plan was based on the Cupgame. Xykon's invisible attack was meant as the manouvre that would win the battle, raising the slain paladins and other dead defenders of the citadel as undead and attacking the rear.
The defeat of Xykon would have been acertained if the loyal hobgoblin hadn't sacrificied himself for the Supreme Leader, but then, he would have been returned to it's pylacthery (or is there a minimum range?) and Redcloak might have changed his plan in the same way as well... The brilliant breaching of the southwall was maybe just a good starting point for any plan-B if required (but was it a nice move? certainly! :smallcool: ).

[yoshi927]

The best I've been able to come up with is;

1. Shojo's sudden death and Miko's (the most powerful Paladin in the Sapphire Guard, presumably something of a second-in-command) falling directly before the battle. Not only is there a new and inexperienced commander of the city, but also of the most powerful military body within the city. Also, since the Azurites seem prone to believing in omens from the gods, the damage to morale is presumably worse than it would've been elsewhere.

2. The nobles fleeing further detracted from morale, because in situations like this much of the time most of what the soldiers have to depend on is a lord to protect them. The loss of troops also hurt badly.

3. An at least 3:1 ratio of attackers to defenders. With a breach in the wall, there was no chance of holding them off.

4. The giant charge caused most of the breach defenders to flee, so it's at least a 20-30:1 ratio of attackers to defenders.

5. Miko destroying the gate wiped out most of the surviving high-level defenders, and stopped Soon from killing Redcloak and Xykon.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

Yes, all that contributed to it's fall, the circumstances for a Team Evil victory couldn't have been better. Miko pretty much screwed up a lot, even saved redcloak and xykon from the SoonSurprise. the only thing she did FOR the city instead of against it was giving them a last minute warning on aproaching danger... then the foolish woman killed Shojo which demoralised the AC greatly. And then the nobles just left, the selfish basters.

[Tirian]

Clearly, the problem is that Elan prepared a semi-rousing speech when he should have had all of the Azurites yell out their names. Zykon would have been the only one to make it into the city if Team Evil had been fighting named NPCs.

[Twilight Jack]

Clearly, the problem is that Elan prepared a semi-rousing speech when he should have had all of the Azurites yell out their names. Zykon would have been the only one to make it into the city if Team Evil had been fighting named NPCs.

The only issue with this tactic is that it would have required a few hundred strips, as each and every soldier in the army would need to be unambiguously identified to the reader in order for their plot armor to kick in. Elan knows that, so dismissed the plan as unworkable, given pacing considerations.

[lemmor]

It was an assault, not a siege...

[Rincewind]

They were caught flat-footed in the surprise round. That's the main reason the AC fell.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

naaaah... Miko warned them... yes, a bit too late, and yes, the Hobbo's managed to move fast and take out all the watchtowers...

In effect the strategy of Redcloak was superb, even though Sun Tzu (the big authority in strategy) was not rather fond of sieges, other Chinese strategists did realise a fast battle, even if an assault on the walls, can sometimes not be avoided and is in some ways key to winning a war. Had the Hobgoblins prepared a more drawn out siege, their chances of winning had been diminished.
the "100 strategies of war" (compiled during the Song-Dynasty) is clear on this, if the enemy is unprepared, outnumbered and demoralised, you must attack him, even if he is fortified, to take advantage of that situation. If you let him prepare himself, your victory will be more difficult to achieve.
as a maxim, If you outnumber an enemy who has a strong castle but diminished morale, yet plenty supplies, while your large army might run out quickly, a fast assault might win you the battle as fast assaults (by virtue of Sun Tzu's wisdom) are not readily expected by all but the most intelligent strategists... besides, sieging a well supplied small army might take ages while you might get hungry and forced to break off the siege to get food. In addition, reinforcements might be forthcoming ruining your allready useless blockade if they break through...

If the enemy's army in the castle is large but does not have bucketloads of supplies while you do and no reinforcements are forthcoming, a drawn out siege must be prefered to a quick assault...

and a 3d of your army dead at the base of the city walls ain't so bad when Sun Tzu states that 2/3's is the body count to be expected when you assault a city too quickly... (and what are casualties to evil necromancers? recyclable manpower!)

but then... if Redcloak had died it might have been not so bad... untill Miko escaped and totally misjudged the situation in her typical way...

[Thanatos 51-50]

Heavy lead concentration in the ground, combined with bad piping, cuase the lead to sep into the groundwater, and...

Wait.

Factor one- Leadership. Hello, dead horse.

Factor two- Numbers. Although, I'd say the Fortifications would have been decent to level the field.

Factor three- Tactics. AC turtled, Redcloak used unorthodox, basing elelmentals to break open a giant hole in the wall, negating a portion of their fortifications.

Factor four- Officers. AC squandered its big guns, they should have been on the line, whereas Red's forces had large numbers dedicated to each officer. Enough so that Death Knight didn't blink about building a corpse-y ramp.
Also, Red's offcier's had significantly more power, with the exception of the EoFaF, and weren't hesitant to use their aggro.

Factor Five- Pre-battle considerations. This meaning, of course, replacin one leader, nobles leaving, loosing a higly capable fighter, and all that other stuff everyone has brought up.

Factor Six- Plot.

Now, in relation to Weather/Winds tactics:


<snip> ... cast Control Winds. Azure City is built in a pass between mountains next to the seashore, which means that the prevailing winds are almost certainly Moderate to strong <Interjection: I'll give you a good 25-30 knots, with gusts to 40, on a "bad day". Thats enough to be hazardous to small craft, as well as gale condition, IIRC>. That means that Durkon could have created a circle over a thousand feet across, centered on him, of hurricane or tornado force winds. Just get him into the center of the enemy army (an Invisibility spell, courtesy of V, would help a lot here), and cast Control Winds with an eye around himself. With hurricane-force winds, he'd be able to batter most of the enemy hobgoblins into unconsciousness, and with tornado-force winds, he could kill them outright. <snip>

Bolding is done by me, and are my interjections.

Also, it was daytime, Winds would be heading in the opposite direction, towards the sea.
Also, a twister would require Weather (WX) Control, not winds control, or possibly a combination of both, as a self-sustaining Cumulonimbus (CB) would be nessecary to generate a tornado.
An even more imaginitive tactic would be to create a strong, inactive cold front a long ways away (many many miles, lets say 50, just for giggles - wait, is that outside of the Spell Range?), so that the squall line would effect the battle field, which gives you a FIELD of CBs to work your tornado-ey might upon, as well as having a whole bunch of downburst to create new CBs as the old ones die.

And this isn't taking into account topographic effects, like the mountains you mentioned.

It should also be noted that with tornados, the wind speed is not the decisive power in destructive ability, rather, it is the wind shear, likewise with a hurricane, its the storm surge that does your damage, and such a surge would likely decimate AC.

...
I think I may have Killed come catgirls with WX.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

And we forgot all about Captain Julio Scoundrél blasting a few pieces of towerartillery- "ah, don't worry, they'll fix it in a week" and then "It's not like they're gonna get invaded before they repair it you know" http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html)

oopsie...

The defensive fortifications where weakened before the battle even started... :smalleek:

I guess that aside from tactics, it also came down to luck and friction. which makes it fantastic to read :D
Not only very clever, Xykon and Redcloak where very lucky also. The spirit army of Soon might have been more than a little problem if the AC had been united in their cause, the assault would have been more costly if that rogue Scoundrél hadn't blasted some of them catapults and parapets.

[Chronos]

Now, in relation to Weather/Winds tactics:What you say is reasonable, but I think that the D&D rules are on my side, here. From the SRD's entry on winds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#winds), 25-30 knots is well into the "strong winds" range. And from the Control Winds spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm), "For every three caster levels, you can increase or decrease wind strength by one level." Durkon is 13th level, so he could increase or decrease wind strength by four levels. Starting with Strong winds, that goes Severe - Windstorm - Hurricane - Tornado. Note that this does not imply that he's creating a funnel cloud; it means that he's producing tornado-force winds within the area. If the natural winds were Moderate, instead, then he can go up to Hurricane.

Now, back to the page on Wind Effects, we see that a hurricane-force wind will blow away medium-sized creatures (such as hobgoblins), which means that they're "knocked prone and rolled 1d4×10 feet, taking 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per 10 feet.", if they fail a DC 20 Fortitude save. Just one round of that is enough to knock out about half of the army, and if it continues, it quickly approaches all of the low-level hobgoblins (though the undead would be unaffected by nonlethal damage). Keep it up until it gets dispelled (remember, all of the clerics trying to dispell it will have to make Concentration checks in addition to the caster-level checks, and Durkon is much higher level than most of them), and then send Azure City troops out to coup-de-grace all of the unconscious hobgoblins and fight whatever's still left standing.

My apologies to the catgirls.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Its cool, there is that whole "rules" and "magickal effects" thing backing you up.
I just hand the overwhelming urge to put my meterology training to practical uselessness. (OXYMORON!)

Oh, and I don't like catgirls, and will leap at the chance to use physics in a fantasy discussion, provided I know enough about the physics involved.

[Chronos]

I just hand the overwhelming urge to put my meterology training to practical uselessness.Mind if I use this line? I'm a physicist, and it would come in very handy here, too.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Mind if I use this line? I'm a physicist, and it would come in very handy here, too.

As long as you fix the typos.

[Belkar's Left Foot]

Well it all dominoed just perfectly.

1. Wall is breached
2. V splits from main group for rest of the battle
3. Xykon has no major spell caster to oppose him to skim the walls
4.The Huecueva and Death Knight have succeeded in leading 3 armies
5. Belkar is lost on the walls, but does take out many many Hobs in the
ensuing massacre.
6. Elan begins to run out of Puns, thus lessening his usefulness in battle
7. Death Knight is killed
8. Roy dies, meaning that major melee fighter is out of action
9. Tsukkiko is recruited and begins killing AC soldiers
10. Xykon succeeds in destroying almost the entire SG in one comic, stopping any chance they could reinforce the soldiers in the rest of the city

11. Martyrs of the SG attack Xykon
12. Belkar acquires the EoFaF, making it obsolete as a weapon against AC
13. Redcloak becomes extremely serious in the siege of AC, abandoning any plans and doing whatever it takes to preserve more Hob lives, making the outnumbering even more deadly.

14. The breach in the wall is charged by the entire army, most of the soldiers abandon the post and V runs out of high level spells, and disappears, while the remaining soldiers are crushed
15. The Huecueva is killed by Durkon, and Thor and Odin are prevented from helping out Durkon, due to past transgressions
16. The gate to the main part of the city is opened and Haley fails to eliminate Redclaok, but draws the attention of Hob Archers

17. Belkar returns to the city with the EoFaF in toe and eliminates the archers saving the rest of the party, momentarily.
18. The Hobs are fooled into thinking they eliminated all the PC's and major NPC's
19. Redcloak defeats the powerful clerics of the Azure city who could have severely hampered the march to the throne.
20. Tsukiko kills the Chlorine Elemental, which stops it from killing more humans, but also allows the LG to escape, thus makins sure they will continue to plot against the OoTS.

21. Xykon and Redcloak almost succeed in destroying the GMoSG.
22. Miko escapes from jail and destroys the Gate, destroying Soon's grip on this plane, and allowing Xykon and Redcloak to survive and escape
23. The Castle is blown up killing every last person in the City except 7 and possibly 8.
24. Xykon and Redcloak take control of the city
25. The 7 remaining people retreat

And Voila, the fall of the Azure city, in 25 easy steps and more or less chronological order.

[russellmz]

i numbered it so there is space for stuff in between.

-30 xykon kills all the warning beacons
-20 tower catapults get whacked by scoundrel
-15 miko whacks the old man
-10 elan delivers morale crushing speech
-5 roy takes a few hits for elan and wastes his health potion


Well it all dominoed just perfectly.

1. Wall is breached
2. V splits from main group for rest of the battle
3. Xykon has no major spell caster to oppose him to skim the walls
4.The Huecueva and Death Knight have succeeded in leading 3 armies
5. Belkar is lost on the walls, but does take out many many Hobs in the
ensuing massacre.
6. Elan begins to run out of Puns, thus lessening his usefulness in battle
7. Death Knight is killed
8. Roy dies, meaning that major melee fighter is out of action
9. Tsukkiko is recruited and begins killing AC soldiers
10. Xykon succeeds in destroying almost the entire SG in one comic, stopping any chance they could reinforce the soldiers in the rest of the city

11. Martyrs of the SG attack Xykon
12. Belkar acquires the EoFaF, making it obsolete as a weapon against AC
13. Redcloak becomes extremely serious in the siege of AC, abandoning any plans and doing whatever it takes to preserve more Hob lives, making the outnumbering even more deadly.

14. The breach in the wall is charged by the entire army, most of the soldiers abandon the post and V runs out of high level spells, and disappears, while the remaining soldiers are crushed
15. The Huecueva is killed by Durkon, and Thor and Odin are prevented from helping out Durkon, due to past transgressions
16. The gate to the main part of the city is opened and Haley fails to eliminate Redclaok, but draws the attention of Hob Archers

17. Belkar returns to the city with the EoFaF in toe and eliminates the archers saving the rest of the party, momentarily.
18. The Hobs are fooled into thinking they eliminated all the PC's and major NPC's
19. Redcloak defeats the powerful clerics of the Azure city who could have severely hampered the march to the throne.
20. Tsukiko kills the Chlorine Elemental, which stops it from killing more humans, but also allows the LG to escape, thus makins sure they will continue to plot against the OoTS.

21. Xykon and Redcloak almost succeed in destroying the GMoSG.
22. Miko escapes from jail and destroys the Gate, destroying Soon's grip on this plane, and allowing Xykon and Redcloak to survive and escape
23. The Castle is blown up killing every last person in the City except 7 and possibly 8.
24. Xykon and Redcloak take control of the city
25. The 7 remaining people retreat

And Voila, the fall of the Azure city, in 25 easy steps and more or less chronological order.

[Wojiz]

I think at this point it would be better to point out things Azure City had going FOR them, because all I can think of at this point are the PCs and the fortifications, the latter of which fell easily to the elementals.

[wymarc]

Considering this led to the release of an assassin after Hinjo and a Mystic Theurge who wanted to destroy the city, and the only one not betraying his trust being Belkar, Hinjo actually helped weaken his city's chance for survival.

just don't point that out to him....

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

I think at this point it would be better to point out things Azure City had going FOR them, because all I can think of at this point are the PCs and the fortifications, the latter of which fell easily to the elementals.

What the Azure City had going FOR them was their potential and reputation of "The best fortress" and "The best human army"... which of course, had been totally evapourated as soon as Shojo died at the hands of his best Paladin, and the Hobgoblins appeared out of nowhere and totally unexpected.
Then, evactuating the city, even as the nobles left (and in fact following their example), of citizens was, maybe noble to spare their lives, but NOT good for morale. Evacuating the citizens gives the messages that all soldiers will probably die without winning, hence, the evacuating the citizens to keep them safe from a defeat "says" that the High Command does not trust the soldiers to protect their fellow countrymen. If the general shows lack of faith in his troops, the most common reaction is demoralisation, rather than motivation to prove him wrong. The AC could have been more tenacious defenders if all people had stayed in the city... but then, there would have been also a lot more victims for the Hobbos had they won as they did.

I Guess the AC actually had nothing going for them but the PC's , the Saphire Guard spirits and a pretty blue wall with damaged parapets.