Struggling to understand LA buyoff mechanic

[Albions_Angel]

So you have an LA. Lets say its +1

You go into the game with your buddies, and they all level up at 1000 xp, while you dont (because of the LA). So now they are level 2 and you are level 1. Then they level up at 3000 xp to level 3, while you level up at 3000 xp to level 2. Right? Thats how raw LA works?

Instead of leveling up, you can pay 2000 xp of that to remove the LA and become... level 2? But now you dont have the effective XP penalty and so can catch up? Is that it? But you are still a level behind right? Im not going mad with that am i?

So LA buyoffs are really only there to start you catching back up in class levels. Is that it? Which would be far more potent in games that allow downtime for writing scrolls, where people are sacrificing xp as a resource, right? In games where there is no such reduction in party member xp, then there isnt quite as much benefit. You will always be playing catch up for quite a few levels, right?

[jedipilot24]

So you have an LA. Lets say its +1

You go into the game with your buddies, and they all level up at 1000 xp, while you dont (because of the LA). So now they are level 2 and you are level 1. Then they level up at 3000 xp to level 3, while you level up at 3000 xp to level 2. Right? Thats how raw LA works?

Instead of leveling up, you can pay 2000 xp of that to remove the LA and become... level 2? But now you dont have the effective XP penalty and so can catch up? Is that it? But you are still a level behind right? Im not going mad with that am i?

So LA buyoffs are really only there to start you catching back up in class levels. Is that it? Which would be far more potent in games that allow downtime for writing scrolls, where people are sacrificing xp as a resource, right? In games where there is no such reduction in party member xp, then there isnt quite as much benefit. You will always be playing catch up for quite a few levels, right?


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

An LA+1 character would gain three character levels and then pay 3,000 xp.
You'd gain those levels more slowly than the rest of the party and you might end up a level behind when you finally do pay it off, but you would also earn more xp due to being a level lower and so it wouldn't take very long to catch up.

[RoyVG]

So you have an LA. Lets say its +1

You go into the game with your buddies, and they all level up at 1000 xp, while you dont (because of the LA). So now they are level 2 and you are level 1. Then they level up at 3000 xp to level 3, while you level up at 3000 xp to level 2. Right? Thats how raw LA works?

Instead of leveling up, you can pay 2000 xp of that to remove the LA and become... level 2? But now you dont have the effective XP penalty and so can catch up? Is that it? But you are still a level behind right? Im not going mad with that am i?

So LA buyoffs are really only there to start you catching back up in class levels. Is that it? Which would be far more potent in games that allow downtime for writing scrolls, where people are sacrificing xp as a resource, right? In games where there is no such reduction in party member xp, then there isnt quite as much benefit. You will always be playing catch up for quite a few levels, right?
LA buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) + Characters of lower level recieve more experience from encounters, pg47-78 of the DMG.

Assuming a group of 4 adventurers, 3 of them level 6 and one level 5 because he bought off his Level Adjustment some time prior. Imagine they clear an combat encounter with a 2 CR 5 creatures.

A level 5 character would recieve 3000XP per creature, divided by party number (4) = so a total of 750 XP
the level 6 characters recieves 2700XP per creature, divided by party number (4) = 600 XP per party member

(Alternatively, you can use this handy calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/))

So the lower level character recieves about 150XP more than the rest of the party for this encounter. This continues like this, until the character manages to gain enough XP to reach the same level. Party members could 'help him out' by spending their XP (creating Magic items, not participating in an encounters), in essence reducing the gap, but over time that won't be necessary.

EDIT: flipping Ninja'd

[Albions_Angel]

Sorry, you will have to spell it out for me.

Party is level 1, you are level 1 with an LA+1.

Party gains 1000 xp, they level to level 2, you are still level 1.
Party gains total 3000 xp, they are level 3, you are level 2? Or do you level at 2000 xp? (I never really go LA to start with).
At any rate, you get enough xp to level to level 3, but instead you dump 3000 of it and are still level 2? Is that right? And now you can start catching up?

[ComaVision]

Party is level 1, you are level 1 with an LA+1.

Party gains 1000 xp, they level to level 2, you are still level 1.
Party gains 2000 xp, they are level 3, you are level 2.
Party gains 3000 xp, they are level 4. You spend 3000 xp and are level 3 but can now start catching up.

Fixed your numbers to make it right.

[Zaq]

Sorry, you will have to spell it out for me.

Party is level 1, you are level 1 with an LA+1.

Party gains 1000 xp, they level to level 2, you are still level 1.
Party gains total 3000 xp, they are level 3, you are level 2? Or do you level at 2000 xp? (I never really go LA to start with).
At any rate, you get enough xp to level to level 3, but instead you dump 3000 of it and are still level 2? Is that right? And now you can start catching up?

Part of it is that you're looking at a weird edge case (level 1), since generally, you don't allow LA into the party at level 1. (I mean, a GM is certainly capable of doing whatever they want, but that's not what's recommended; you generally want to start the party all at the same ECL.)

If everyone else is level 1 (+0 LA, ECL 1) and you're level 1 (+1 LA, ECL 2), you're effectively at a higher level than the rest of the party, just like if you had started with 2 class levels when everyone else had started with 1. (Yeah, in practical terms, LA +1 isn't as strong as a full class level, but that's what RAW says.) So you're calculating different XP totals for the party even before you get LA buyoff involved, which might be what's confusing you.

If we just move out of that edge case a little bit, things might get a bit clearer. The rest of the party has 2 class levels each (and no LA), so they're each ECL 2. You have only one class level, but you have +1 LA, so you're also ECL 2. You gain XP at exactly the same rate as everyone else, and you level up exactly when they do. If you don't use LA buyoff, things just stay this way forever; you have fewer HD, so your skill caps are lower and you get feats at a different time than everyone else, but you gain XP exactly the same way they do.

Once you buy off the LA, things get different, but my point is that your example scenario is already unusual and uneven.

[RoyVG]

In your example, the rest of the party is lower level than the player with LA, therefore they should get more XP from encounters, though at levels 1-3, there is no difference between in the amount of EXP gained. That is why LA buyoff should not happen before level 3.

In the end LA buyoff will yield better results, because the total amount of experience to reach a certain class level is reduced significantly (See the example about the Drow Cleric in the links above. That's a difference of 25k XP he does not have to gain to reach Level 2 cleric, because he bought off his LA.

Generally speaking though, you should not start with a party of level 1 characters, one of which has an LA+1 race/template. Preferably give everyone a +1LA and have everyone buy it off at the same time, or a less optimal option would be to let them start at level 2, so that everyone is ECL 2. The one with the template will be at a dissadvantage especially at later levels, unless he buys it off and can start playing catch up becasue of the additional experience he gains.

In your situation, you will start with an advantage (the template/race bonuses), but will be at a disadvantage once you buy it off, and slowly cath up to close to their level.

Honestly, we quickly stopped using XP all together in most campaigns

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks.

I wasnt intending to start a campaign with LA, and certainly not with everyone having one character class level. I understand everyone should be at the same ECL, I just wanted some numbers on XP and where you would stand with the party before, during and after a typical buy off. The UA variant rule isnt written in the clearest english IMHO.

I think I have it now. Sort of (and again I will use CL rather than ECL)



XP
Party
You


0
1
1


1000
2
1


3000
3
2


6000/3000
4
3 (Buyoff occurs)





Better?

[ComaVision]

Better?

Yep, much better. Don't feel bad about not understanding LA right away, it took me a long time and several readings to really grasp it. Thankfully, it's not quite as bad as the rules for bloodlines in the same book.

[Albions_Angel]

Yep, much better. Don't feel bad about not understanding LA right away, it took me a long time and several readings to really grasp it. Thankfully, it's not quite as bad as the rules for bloodlines in the same book.

Well, having been through some of UA, I have basically decided any groups I run will get the classes and thats more or less it. LA buy off will now be in effect if it ever comes up, but I find traits and flaws can be far too powerful and frankly bloodlines scare the crap out of me.

[martixy]

Think of yourself as a Level 2 character. Except you only have 1 HD.
This is what ECL(effective character level) measures. It is used to calculate XP, WBL and other similar level-dependent abstract quantities.
ECL = Level Adjustment + Racial Hit Dice + Class Levels.

Buyoff is based on class level(only).

So you need to become a class level 3(ECL4, 3 class levels + 1 LA) to be able to buy off.
For LA +2 it happens at Class levels 6 and 9, ECL 8(6 class levels + 2 LA) and ECL 10(9 class levels +1 LA) respectively.
LA+3: 9, 15, 18
LA+4: 12, 21, 27, 30
etc...

If you had 1 RHD as well, you'd need to wait till ECL 9 and ECL 11 to buy off your 2 LA.