Zen Archery Build?

[TheCreatorT]

I was looking through a feats list and saw Zen Archery, which for those who don't, allows ranged attacks to made with your Wisdom mod instead of your Dex mod.

I was curious if there were any piratical ways to apply this, like any classes this would work with?

[LentilNinja]

Cleric, most notably. I guess you could do it with Ranger as well, but I don't know how much benefit there is to that.

I believe Psychic Warriors key off WIS? If so, thats another good example.

[Sliver]

Cleric Archer? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Cleric is probably the most optimal choice, in that casters win everything in D&D. You can put your best score in Wisdom and be a great caster and archer, and heavy armor means you can entirely dump Dex. Other Wis-heavy casters like Druid, Psychic Warrior, and Ardent are also decent choices.
The Soulbow PrC from Complete Psionic gives you a ranged attack that adds your Wisdom to damage-- take Zen Archery and you're pretty much SAD.
The Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures requires a couple crap feats to enter, but the first level lets you add Wisdom to attack and damage, which combos wonderfully with Zen Archery and Soulbow. Can you say "double Wis to attack and damage?" I can!

[dextercorvia]

Cloistered Cleric is probably the best class (because after all it is a cleric). If DMM Persist is on the table, definitely. Personally, I don't think it is usually worth it. Since you will likely be lightly armored and far away, even an archer Cleric will have Dex as a second priority stat (for AC/Reflex saves etc.) That means the feat is likely no better than a +1 or +2 to attack.

I'm sure there are niche cases of clerics that dump Dex, or an Archivist focused on ranged attacks (with Int>Wis>Dex as a stat priority), but nothing has ever come to mind to make it truly worth it for me.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here's an old Psychic Warrior Zen Archer build of mine:



The Psycarnum Archer

BUILD STUB: Neraph, Ranger 2/Psychic Warrior 18

PROGRESSION:

Feats:
1. Ranger1- Track, Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
2. Ranger2- Rapid Shot
3. PsyWar1- Zen Archery, Azure Talent
4. PsyWar2- Psycarnum Infusion
5. PsyWar3-
6. PsyWar4- Open Least Chakra (Hands)
7. PsyWar5- Psicrystal Affinity
8. PsyWar6-
9. PsyWar7- Psicrystal Containment
10. PsyWar8- Psionic Meditation
11. PsyWar9-
12. PsyWar10- Improved Essentia Capacity
13. PsyWar11- Midnight Augmentation
14. PsyWar12-
15. PsyWar13- Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
16. PsyWar14- Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
17. PsyWar15-
18. PsyWar16- Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar)
19. PsyWar17- Linked Power
20. PsyWar18-

Powers:
1- Expansion, Metaphysical Weapon, Extend Range
2- Hustle, Psionic Scent, Damp Power
3- Greater Concealing Amorpha, Dimension Slide, Mental Barrier/Telekinetic Boomerang
4- Schism, Metamorphosis, Steadfast Perception, Psionic Freedom of Movement, Inertial Barrier
5- Empower Weapon, Oak Body, Change Fate
6- Personal Mind Blank, Dispelling Buffer, Inconstant Location



Several ways to regain and expend psionic focus each round, to feed Psycarnum Infusion
Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent to break the PsyWar's low PP problem
A soulmeld that grants Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, letting this become a build that totally dumps Dex in favor of Wis (yay for more bonus PP!)
Ability to metamorph into an Arrow Demon for multiple full attacks each round
Bonus damage via Sighting Gloves or bonus attack via Incarnate Avatar as needed (and able to be maxed out when necessary via Psycarnum Infusion again)
Ability to augment powers to their max without expending additional PP with Midnight Augmentation + Psycarnum Infusion, mostly used for long lasting powers
Ranger levels to gain Rapid Shot without needing pre-reqs, and also to open up wand chambers of swift action Ranger archery spells

[sleepyphoenixx]

Cloistered Cleric is probably the best class (because after all it is a cleric). If DMM Persist is on the table, definitely. Personally, I don't think it is usually worth it. Since you will likely be lightly armored and far away, even an archer Cleric will have Dex as a second priority stat (for AC/Reflex saves etc.) That means the feat is likely no better than a +1 or +2 to attack.

I'm sure there are niche cases of clerics that dump Dex, or an Archivist focused on ranged attacks (with Int>Wis>Dex as a stat priority), but nothing has ever come to mind to make it truly worth it for me.

That may be true at low levels, but at high levels it's completely wrong. Even then Con should be your second priority stat, not Dex.

Assuming you start with 18 Wis you'll end up with at least 34 at level 20. 18 base +5 from levels +5 inherent +6 enhancement.
Your Dex will grow, at most, by a +10 for persisted Divine Agility since it's not worth spending the money for the inherent bonus on. The most you'll need to start with is 13 for Rapid Shot, assuming you can't just go for 11 and qualify with a cheap +2 dex item.
By the mid-levels you also get more AC out of a Monk's Belt than enhanced armor + shield, and since you don't need to upgrade it you save a lot of gold too.

[dextercorvia]

That may be true at low levels, but at high levels it's completely wrong. Even then Con should be your second priority stat, not Dex.

Assuming you start with 18 Wis you'll end up with at least 34 at level 20. 18 base +5 from levels +5 inherent +6 enhancement.
Your Dex will grow, at most, by a +10 for persisted Divine Agility since it's not worth spending the money for the inherent bonus on. The most you'll need to start with is 13 for Rapid Shot, assuming you can't just go for 11 and qualify with a cheap +2 dex item.
By the mid-levels you also get more AC out of a Monk's Belt than enhanced armor + shield, and since you don't need to upgrade it you save a lot of gold too.

I suppose that shows my bias, as I end up playing mostly in low level games, and I never end up with inherent bonuses even in higher level games. The existence of Monk's Belt makes quite a difference once it is available. However, you are dealing with a pretty cruddy AC until then.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I suppose that shows my bias, as I end up playing mostly in low level games, and I never end up with inherent bonuses even in higher level games. The existence of Monk's Belt makes quite a difference once it is available. However, you are dealing with a pretty cruddy AC until then.
So put a 13 in Dex and take a level of Fighter for bonus feats and heavy armor proficiency. (Or Prestige Paladin, or Bone Knight, or some other PrC that gives you heavy armor).

[sleepyphoenixx]

I suppose that shows my bias, as I end up playing mostly in low level games, and I never end up with inherent bonuses even in higher level games. The existence of Monk's Belt makes quite a difference once it is available. However, you are dealing with a pretty cruddy AC until then.

There's no reason you can't wear armor and use a shield before then - they're cheap enough, and you have access to Magic Vestment and other AC boosting spells. Throwing out or selling a few hundred gp of nonmagical armor won't break you, and you're unlikely to get any highly enchanted armor before you can afford the belt anyway.

There's just no point in spending a lot of money on magically enhancing armor if you can just switch to a belt at mid-levels that gives a similar AC bonus (that also applies to touch AC), stacks with spells like Luminous Armor and only costs you 13,000gp while scaling with a stat you'd raise anyway.

[Zaq]

Zen Archery is both good and bad, honestly. Like, on the one hand, people who go WIS-primary are usually casters (or manifesters, same diff), so letting a caster use their casting stat for attack rolls is potentially very strong. As has been mentioned, Cleric archers are the most obvious choice, though Archivist archers are also very strong (arguably stronger, since they have access to Ranger archery-boosting spells and they aren't limited to 2 domains when it comes to spell selection; the downside is that Clerics are straight WIS users while Archivists are WIS/INT split-stat users, but WIS/INT is still easier than WIS/INT/DEX).

The downside is that archery is really, really feat-heavy to begin with, so shoving Zen Archery in there isn't always easy. And of course, it replaces DEX for ranged attack rolls rather than adding to it, so unless your WIS is significantly higher than your DEX, you're not going to be getting a big bonus (especially compared to someone who just had high DEX in the first place, which is why characters who don't use WIS for casting don't generally bother with Zen Archery). And then there's the fact that many archery feats have DEX as a prerequisite, so you still need to keep your DEX high enough to meet the prereqs of whatever feats you plan to use. (You can probably get away with 13 if you don't want anything fancier than Rapid Shot, but it's a consideration nonetheless.) And of course, a caster who's shooting a bow is a caster who isn't unleashing an encounter-ending spell, no matter what stat they're using. (Yeah, spells with ranged touch attacks are a thing, but they're less common on WIS-based casters than on other casters unless you're building specifically for that sort of thing.)

It can be fun if you get to use WIS for ranged attacks in other ways as well (the most common methods being Soulbow for damage or Shiba Protector for attack and damage, as Grod mentioned), but again, that's something you build for specifically, and it's not trivial to get into those classes. (Shiba Protector in particular takes a bunch of feats, which archers need a lot of already, especially if you're adding Zen Archery.)

The long and short of it is that it has the potential to be part of a very strong character, but it's not automatically a crazy strong feat in its own right. In the late game when you can afford to pump your WIS sky-high (level-up bonuses and enhancement bonuses and maybe even inherent bonuses), sure, it's a pretty nice bonus if you're building for archery. But if your WIS is 18 and your DEX is 14? You're spending a feat for a +2 bonus to hit. That isn't awful, but neither is it going to turbocharge your character. Basically, just take a hard look at what exactly it will and won't let you accomplish, then build appropriately.

[Piggy Knowles]

Chameleons (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) also make excellent Zen Archers. Their divine casting is Wisdom-based, and they get access not only to cleric buffs but the ranger-specific archery spells and, most importantly for a Zen Archer, access to the druid spell Owl's Insight, which offers a huge bonus to your Wisdom. You can build something fairly easy like Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 4/Chameleon 10 and end up being a frighteningly proficient archer without more than a 13 in Dexterity.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I was curious if there were any piratical ways to apply this, like any classes this would work with?

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any Dread Pirate builds that use Zen Archery. :smallwink:

[Glimbur]

The other problem with Zen Archery is that you still need Dex to take archery feats.

[Blackhawk748]

The Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures requires a couple crap feats to enter, but the first level lets you add Wisdom to attack and damage, which combos wonderfully with Zen Archery and Soulbow. Can you say "double Wis to attack and damage?" I can!


That sounds like a really fun build actually, to bad Soulbow and Shiba Protector are 3/4s BaB, thankfully you only need one level of each. I guess the biggest downside is that you have to start as a Soulknife :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

That sounds like a really fun build actually, to bad Soulbow and Shiba Protector are 3/4s BaB, thankfully you only need one level of each. I guess the biggest downside is that you have to start as a Soulknife :smalltongue:
I had a great build for it I worked out a while back. The central vision was the dapper guy with a knife up his sleeve. Like, always with the knives. Just so many knives. As his career continues, he discovers an innate (read: psionic) talent for conjuring things, eventually developing into full-on psionics. The build was:

Human Ranger* 2/Soulknife (Hidden Talent, Bonus Feats) 3/Soulbow 4/Shiba Protector 1/Slayer 1/Ardent 2/Slayer +7

1st: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2nd (Ranger Bonus): TWF**
3rd (inc. Soulknife bonus): Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Mind Blade), Hidden Talent (Call Weaponry)***
5th (Soulknife Bonus): Hidden Talent (Psionic Minor Creation)
6th (inc Soulbow Bonus): Combat Expertise, Zen Archery
8th (Soulknife Bonus): Rapid Shot
9th: Alertness
12th: Practiced Manifester

By my math you wind up with +16 BAB and 7th level powers, which is a pretty good place to be. (If your DM will let you keep stacking Practiced Manifester you can bootstap your way up to 9ths, but good luck getting him to buy "advancing Slayer is totally different than advancing Ardent).

*I used the Cityscape swaps and Arcane Hunter for a more urbane feel, but that was just me. Anything works, though full BAB is preferable; I picked Ranger for the skill points.
**My build was focused on pretending to throw ****, so I figured this was more appropriate for early levels, as well as giving a bit of melee ability. Once Soulbow comes online it's functionally identical to Rapid Shot, except they stack. You could switch things around if you wanted Rapid Shot earlier, take some different Soulknife bonus feat.
***This was flavor more than power; you could easy take Minor Creation here and replace the second with anything of your choice

[Thurbane]

Maybe for a ray focused Archivist? Although Archivists tend to invest more in Int than Wis. The main upside of Archivist vs. Cleric is the wider range of ray spells they could get access to...

[Snowbluff]

Druid with a Bow that can adapt its Str rating, turn into a legendary ape/ aspect of dragon/ cast buffing spell.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you really want to dump Dex, you can always do something like...

Human, Cloistered Cleric 1/Ranger 2/Incarnate 2/Chameleon 10
(Knowledge, Planning, Trickery domains)

1. Cloistered Cleric1- Knowledge DevotionB, Extend SpellB, Able Learner, Persistent Spell
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Zen Archery
4. Incarnate1-
5. Incarnate2-
6. Chameleon1- Open Least Chakra (Hands)
7. Chameleon2-
8. Chameleon3-
9. Chameleon4- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
10. Chameleon5-
11. Chameleon6-
12. Chameleon7- Extra Turning
13. Chameleon8-
14. Chameleon9-
15. Chameleon10- Extra Turning

Fill in the last five levels however you'd like. You can completely dump Dex if you want, as you get Precise Shot from the Sighting Gloves soulmeld and Rapid Shot as a Ranger bonus feat.

[deathbymanga]

Go Monk and throw Shurikens

[Blackhawk748]

Go Monk and throw Shurikens

You kid but its viable with Palm Throw

[Grod_The_Giant]

You kid but its viable with Palm Throw
You need some sort of (non-precision) bonus damage, though. Shiba Protector is a good start, as is Swashbuckler 3 with a decent Int, Knowledge Devotion (preferably with Ancestral Knowledge). Heck, Power Throw should work, especially once you hit level 5 and pick up Weak Spot.

[Blackhawk748]

You need some sort of (non-precision) bonus damage, though. Shiba Protector is a good start, as is Swashbuckler 3 with a decent Int, Knowledge Devotion (preferably with Ancestral Knowledge). Heck, Power Throw should work, especially once you hit level 5 and pick up Weak Spot.

Oh of course, just start stacking number. My favorite is to get Glove of Endless Javelins and then enchant it for some elemental damage of my choice. With how many a Monk is throwing those few D6s add up quick.

And now im curious, what is Weak Spot?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh of course, just start stacking number. My favorite is to get Glove of Endless Javelins and then enchant it for some elemental damage of my choice. With how many a Monk is throwing those few D6s add up quick.

And now im curious, what is Weak Spot?
The fifth level Master Thrower ability. It lets you make thrown attacks against touch AC, at the cost of losing your Strength bonus.

[Blackhawk748]

The fifth level Master Thrower ability. It lets you make thrown attacks against touch AC, at the cost of losing your Strength bonus.

Wow, ive never looked at that class beyond Palm Throw, i really should have.