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View Full Version : Roleplaying Chromatic Dragons and Spawn of Tiamat - What's the Point?



Laurellien
2016-02-23, 02:02 PM
I've been rereading the background for spawn of Tiamat, and it just seems to bug me a little. Why would either Tiamat or chromatic dragons want to have spawn?

It seems to me that, for a chromatic dragon, having their children to turn out to be puny dragonspawn with very little in common with their parents would be something of a disappointment. Instead of giving birth to another dragon who, in only a few years, will be a being of immense power with a resemblance to its parents and with the capability to dominate mortals and vanquish the servants of Bahamut. I would assume that evil dragons still have parental instincts and a desire to have offspring similar to them.

From Tiamat's POV, it doesn't seem to make any sense either. Why have a rapidly-maturing creature like a hordeling when you could have a dragon who, in only a few years longer, would be many times as powerful?

Am I missing something here?

Ralanr
2016-02-23, 02:09 PM
Slaves and servants?

MrStabby
2016-02-23, 02:09 PM
Maybe raising a dragon takes more resources: food, princesses/virgins and a starter treasure pile can all get expensive.

ComaVision
2016-02-23, 02:31 PM
From Tiamat's POV, it doesn't seem to make any sense either. Why have a rapidly-maturing creature like a hordeling when you could have a dragon who, in only a few years longer, would be many times as powerful?

Am I missing something here?

Looks like you caught it yourself, giant clutches of rapidly-maturing beasts for the efforts of the evil dragons. The army doesn't work if everyone is a general, after all.

Fable Wright
2016-02-23, 02:47 PM
From Tiamat's POV, it doesn't seem to make any sense either. Why have a rapidly-maturing creature like a hordeling when you could have a dragon who, in only a few years longer, would be many times as powerful?

But much, much more fragile.

Think of what happens when you lose units. Let's say you had, oh, an army of three dozen dragons devouring the countryside. One of your divisions walk into an ambush of archmagi, you lose half a dozen dragons and another handful are wounded. Now it'll take, oh, six new hoards, another fifth of your fighting force to raise them, and decades before they're combat-ready.

On the other hand, let's say you had an army of, say, a 18 dragons and 60 dragonspawn. One of your divisions gets ambushed by archmagi. You lose maybe 1 dragon, two are wounded, and you lose a dozen dragonspawn. It'll take maybe a decade for two dragons to replace the spawn, and your weakest dragon killed only takes one unit off the field to raise.

Which scenario would you prefer?

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-23, 03:12 PM
Gotta love those trash units.

TheYell
2016-02-23, 03:13 PM
You want a teenage dragon whining that it didn't want to be born and telling you to shut up?

Laurellien
2016-02-23, 06:27 PM
Good points, but dragons will still breed at the same rate, so sure you have those spawn of Tiamat ready within a year, but by the time you breed the next set, you could have had juvenile dragons instead.

Mechalich
2016-02-23, 07:58 PM
It really does not make much sense for True Dragons to be breeding spawn of Tiamat. Most spawn are not measurably more powerful than what you'd get from simply breeding an equivalent group of wyrmlings and other low-age dragons during the same timeframe and the potential for growth is much less with spawn.

Dragons of Faerun had a spawn that could breed other spawn though - which immediately changes the equation in favor of producing a bunch of those and churning out huge numbers of spawn. Additionally if Tiamat can make various dragonkin produce spawn, then the calculus also works in favor of spawn.

Joe the Rat
2016-02-24, 12:45 PM
Consider that there's something very important that is required to make Dragons:

Two Dragons.

Urges and predilections aside, there's not always going to be a suitable mate. You would work for this is you are planning to establish a line, but if what you need are minions, it would be a way to go.

But let's say you do find another dragon, and raise your hatchling. What do you end up with?

Two Dragons.

You may see family, or allies, or inheritors, but for most Chromatics, they are also competition. There are no guarantees that the little one won't wander off to his or her own domain, or otherwise subvert your control of an area. It may take a few centuries before they really become a threat, but (most) Dragons think in terms of the long game.

The Spawn of Tiamat - as in direct from Tiamat - makes a bit less sense to me (The Queen of Dragons should have no trouble hooking up), but given that she's a Goddess, the rules of reproduction are more flexible. It could be a clutch of 5 really awesome demigod dragons, or a clutch of a hundred loser hybrids... or both simultaneously, because Avatars and Aspects.

Draconium
2016-02-24, 12:52 PM
Disposibility. As good as dragons are at dealing with their enemies, there's always going to be a need for distractions, foot soldiers, and cannon fodder. Not to mention, dragons take a long time to mature, and there aren't actually as many of them around as you'd think - most editions actually list an encounter with a True Dragon as at least "Rare." It's a lot easier if you have a more common, more rapidly maturing army that you can afford to lose hundreds of then a small army of several powerful beings, but would be crippled if even a single member was killed or injured.

Grim Portent
2016-02-24, 12:58 PM
As I recall the main advantage of the spawn is that any given dragon egg will contain multiple spawn at once instead of a single dragon, so a clutch can have a handful of dragons and a multitude of spawn at the same time.

The actual purpose of the Spawn is to serve as soldiers in Tiamat's war, being more loyal to her than actual dragons are and more specialized. They are her assassins, her enforcers, her priests her fanatical hordes and her living traps. While they are weak individually compared to a mature dragon they are far more capable of cooperation and taking advantage of the strengths possessed by the lesser races such as men and elves than dragons are.

cobaltstarfire
2016-02-24, 02:51 PM
You may see family, or allies, or inheritors, but for most Chromatics, they are also competition. There are no guarantees that the little one won't wander off to his or her own domain, or otherwise subvert your control of an area. It may take a few centuries before they really become a threat, but (most) Dragons think in terms of the long game.

.

Yeah, several of the chromatics have been stated to not care especially much for their young, or do the least amount of care possible, in black dragons if I remember correctly the female doesn't participate at all after laying the eggs. Wyrmlings who are capable of taking care of themselves (which is within days if not hours of hatching) are strongly 'encouraged' to leave the parents territory, lest they be killed and/or eaten. This does vary from one species to the next though.

All dragons have giant ego's too regardless of age, it's probably a lot easier to create and control a horde of spawn than it is to do the same with a batch of young dragons.

Milo v3
2016-02-24, 07:18 PM
Would you rather wait 70 years for a dragon or 1 year for spawn....?

Laurellien
2016-02-25, 01:42 AM
Consider that there's something very important that is required to make Dragons:

Two Dragons.

Urges and predilections aside, there's not always going to be a suitable mate. You would work for this is you are planning to establish a line, but if what you need are minions, it would be a way to go.

This just gave me an idea. I'm thinking that spawn of Tiamat should hatch from unfertilised eggs. If dragon's are like other warm-blooded egg layers, then they should produce plenty of those.

Fizban
2016-02-25, 06:07 AM
Because someone eventually realized that dragons, dragonspawn, dragonborn, and dragon-everything else are marketable and easy to make. If you want to make dragons important while still supposedly keeping actual true dragons big and powerful and rare, you're gonna need a lot of dragon-derivatives. Personally I don't find any of the "Tiamat and war and blagh!" fluff interesting in the slightest (nor that for any other gods really, 's never done well), but it clearly works for getting campaigns published.

Most of the dragonspawn are various shades of interesting (except the generic monstrous humanoids that aren't any better than off-color lizardmen-I'm looking at you Blackspawn Raider and Whitespawn Hunter) and quite useable without any of the Tiamat crap. It's not like every player character party is entirely dedicated to the same god as the cleric, no reason you can't run a game with Greenspawn Sneaks or Bluespawn Thunderlizards or Whitespawn Iceskidders that are just existing independently bein' monsters.

Some posts seem to indicate that the spawn don't breed on their own: ecology entries for several are quite specific and I would assume all can breed separately. So for a one-time brood drop you get a self-sustaining population of disposable monsters, some of which can sheer off to go spread their own mayhem and fill in wherever the DM wants regardless of overblown Tiamat garbage. Or from the in-character dragon perspective: you could go look for a pack of lizardmen or kobolds that are willing to worship you and stoke your ego at the cost of being effective in the slightest; or have a one-night stand, split the brood, and get a specialized population of loyal minions with special abilities far more powerful than most generic humanoids/monstrous humanoids.

Eldan
2016-02-25, 06:52 AM
Because someone eventually realized that dragons, dragonspawn, dragonborn, and dragon-everything else are marketable and easy to make. If you want to make dragons important while still supposedly keeping actual true dragons big and powerful and rare, you're gonna need a lot of dragon-derivatives. Personally I don't find any of the "Tiamat and war and blagh!" fluff interesting in the slightest (nor that for any other gods really, 's never done well), but it clearly works for getting campaigns published.

Yeah. Friend and I once joked we should release a book that is identical to the MM1, just with everything reflavoured as draconic. Behold stats for:

The Draconic Infiltrator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm)
The Dragon Stalker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm)
The Bloodwater Dragonspawn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm)
The Draconic Spawnhunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm)
and of course:
The Windborn Dragonraptor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm)

Douche
2016-02-25, 01:45 PM
I'm amazed that I just read a serious discussion on the parental habits of dragons in regards to raising armies. What a crazy world we live in.

nedz
2016-02-25, 03:31 PM
To pad the pages of MM5 - already a thin book. :smallsigh:

Otherwise I agree with the OP.

If I want lots of disposable minions for my Dragons I already have Kobolds.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-26, 06:42 AM
I'm amazed that I just read a serious discussion on the parental habits of dragons in regards to raising armies. What a crazy world we live in.

Or rather don't live in.

I want my wings and my breath weapon darnit!

Fizban
2016-02-26, 07:54 AM
I'm amazed that I just read a serious discussion on the parental habits of dragons in regards to raising armies. What a crazy world we live in.
Welcome to DnD

Coidzor
2016-02-27, 04:00 PM
Look up the Lonely Mountain strip from the comic Oglaf(Extremely NSFW).

Making more dragons takes having another dragon around to mate with, possibly multiple times. That mate is also competition in the vast majority of cases, even for more noble metallic dragons. The happy couple is very, very rare, and raping another dragon old enough to reproduce is dangerous. So most draconic reproduction is probably pretty mercenary.

Meanwhile, a female dragon can just lay eggs and make them into a bunch of dragonspawn, or turn into a male creature and boink some lesser creatures to make oodles of half-dragon servitors, because sperm is cheap, especially when magically supplied and you have some slaves and servants to rear your half-dragon young.

Male dragons just have bullying a handful of younger dragons along with promises of power and making half-dragon pawns, as in Red Hand of Doom.

Xuc Xac
2016-02-27, 04:17 PM
The OP rephrased: Why does the army have so many 19-year-olds with rifles instead of just building more tanks?

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-02-27, 09:16 PM
And now I want to see half-tanks, tankspawn and tankborn. Probably look a bit like a warforged modeled after Johnny 5/WALL-E.

Bohandas
2016-02-29, 12:46 AM
They could come from unfertilized eggs like Balyano's alternate kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20446202&postcount=33)

Eldan
2016-02-29, 08:11 AM
And now I want to see half-tanks, tankspawn and tankborn. Probably look a bit like a warforged modeled after Johnny 5/WALL-E.

How would you model threads in 3.5? I'm thinking they'd have a ridiculously stability/anti trip bonus, but can't climb, not evne ladders?