Looking to run a Fate Tabletop and I have some questions (Mutants & Masterminds)

[Joshuam303]

Okay so I have been a fan of the fate series for many years and always wanted to run my own campaign for it! and decided to try and do it with the M&M system since I've seen many fate campaigns run on it

My general idea is a campaign set 100 years after the 5th holy grail war, many people had thought the holy grail wars had ended, but then 150 masters receive their command seals and through different means they all get their own servant

What I was going to do is put the players in the war with the other masters and servants and then give them set lives in the war by putting in extra master's that I won't use, so if a player 's master and servant are gone, then they will use one of the lives

But for those out there who know the system well and the fate series, I have a couple of questions

1) What PL would a master be and a servant be? I've seen PL4 for a master and PL12 for a servant before, but isn't that too much points for the servant?

2) How would magic work? since if you look at the servant stats there is a stat for magic, but M&M doesn't have anything like that

3) Similar to the one above, how would spells work? just have it so some require a turn to activate like some spells you see, and some are instant?

4) What's a good way for berserker's to work? I had an idea of people with him making will tests per day or battle to see if they can keep him under control, and the more he fights the harder it is to keep him in control, and how would you work the high stat of the berserker into it? simply have them start with more points? or have an ability where they go berserk and all primary stats are increased by +2?

Thanks in advance

[Anonymouswizard]

First off, I'd personally use Fate for this, with Servants as Extras that acted closer to Fate Accelerated, while Masters would be Fate Core characters.

But onto your questions.

1) It depends on how strong you want masters to be. In general Servants should be strong enough that a Master going against them in a straight fight gets demolished, but weak enough that the right circumstances they could just about win. 8 levels higher looks alright to me, but I haven't played M&M enough to really give a good answer. Bare in mind that the servants in the series can differ in power relatively significantly, although this is mainly points values (Archer and Assassin are by far the weakest servants in the fifth holy grail war, but are still able to hurt the likes of Saber [and even Berserker for Archer]). I think Berserker is the only servant in FSN that is above the others in raw power, and that's without the Mad Enhancement (which isn't used for most of the story according to the VN), although this doesn't apply to the Fate/Zero beserker.

2) Magic would work like any other power. In general, Masters should have an array of powers representing their magic, while most servants shouldn't have magic arrays (but might have arrays of a different kind). If you want a 'Magic Stat' then either pick one of the 8 and have it work like Strength for magic damage, or eyeball a rank based on a servant's mystic abilities (rather than their physical ones).

3) For most spells just build them as an array of powers. Spells in Fate generally happen about as fast as other 'combat' actions, although the only big ones we get to see are Rin cheating to cast them quickly, and spells like UBW should require extra time (although, depending on the spell, they might not prohibit other actions).

4) I'd personally give Beserkers an extra power level or two to play with, with the extra +15PP per power level. I'd personally have the madness feature as a complication, giving a Hero Point whenever it causes them a problem (if you wanted less broken berserkers, this could be the only change you made).

[Joshuam303]

I haven't used the fate system yet, but I've used M&M a couple of times and seen people recommend it for the series

1) I had the idea of giving people set Power levels between the master and servant, but the master must be between PL3-5 and the servant must be between 11-13 or maybe PL10-12 so if someone has say PL 3 master, then they could get PL12 or PL13 servant (haven't decided yet) that way, if someone has a powerful servant, the master will be weaker, or they can have a more powerful master and a weaker servant, or both average

and what I was meaning was, at PL 13 or PL 12, that is 180 points and 195 points, that is a lot of points,, would it fit a servant?

2) and I am confused on your answer for this? do you mean like, use say awe in place of magic?

3) and Ahh yeah I guess

4) and I was considering that, as well as letting them say for example build to a PL12 servant (for example) then giving them + 2-3 on all primary stats afterwards, but have it so that, due to the nature of berserker's the master would have to pass willpower checks to keep it under control, as well as have a large magical energy source so that they can supply the berserker, and if they fail it goes rampant, but I do like the idea of the complication

[AmberVael]

I've assisted with and run a couple games on this premise. I personally used M&M, but in retrospect... maybe another system would have been better. Fate Core would be pretty good.

I typically had a pretty small disparity between master and servant, maybe 3 or 4 PL difference. But I also encouraged different styles of character design, promoting and encouraging large, varied arrays for masters and more focused, specialized and powerful abilities for servants. Gives each of them their own sort of territory. I also liked giving masters higher than average power points for a similar reason.

As for magic... well, magic is just a descriptor in M&M. Which is to say, you don't need any special stats or additional rules, M&M has it covered under the basic rules. Just use the power system to design whatever "spells" you want, and give them the flavor of spells and well now they're spells. Look up how descriptors work, that'll explain it.
To directly address your concern, you don't need a magic stat. Don't worry about porting every little detail of the series directly into M&M, just use the M&M rules as is.

Spells are definitely just arrays, as Anonymouswizard said.

For Berserker, my honest advice is for Berserker to not be a player option. The design and idea of berserker is just too good of a DM tool, and too difficult to balance appropriately for players.

[Anonymouswizard]

I haven't used the fate system yet, but I've used M&M a couple of times and seen people recommend it for the series

Oh, M&M is definitely a great choice for the series, I just personally prefer Fate.


1) I had the idea of giving people set Power levels between the master and servant, but the master must be between PL3-5 and the servant must be between 11-13 or maybe PL10-12 so if someone has say PL 3 master, then they could get PL12 or PL13 servant (haven't decided yet) that way, if someone has a powerful servant, the master will be weaker, or they can have a more powerful master and a weaker servant, or both average

Completely reasonable, my suggestion would be set a total combined PL for master+servant.


and what I was meaning was, at PL 13 or PL 12, that is 180 points and 195 points, that is a lot of points,, would it fit a servant?

Servants are weird. Caster (F/Z) probably has less power points than normal for his level, but has a high level Summon power. Conversely, Archer (F/Z) might be built on a lot of points at the beginning of the series (high Abilities all-round, lots of noble phantasms that really shouldn't be an array, and so on), while people like Saber and Rider could conceivably be built on a bit under 200PP (I think 180 sounds about right for Saber).


2) and I am confused on your answer for this? do you mean like, use say awe in place of magic?

My primary suggestion is to ignore representing the Fate/Stay Night stats, as only half have analogs in M&M (Strength, Agility, and Endurance), and if you do want to gauge the other three (Magic, Magical Energy, and Luck) just estimate it from their character sheet. If you do want a magic stat ID personally recommend Presence over Awareness, but both work, and have it add to magical Damage powers.


4) and I was considering that, as well as letting them say for example build to a PL12 servant (for example) then giving them + 2-3 on all primary stats afterwards, but have it so that, due to the nature of berserker's the master would have to pass willpower checks to keep it under control, as well as have a large magical energy source so that they can supply the berserker, and if they fail it goes rampant, but I do like the idea of the complication

As Fate/Zero makes clear, unless you're applying the Mad Enhancement to an already god-level servant you don't actually need a large magical energy source, although it is more energy intensive than normal, so a complication for the Master is a decent way to play it on their end. Berserker's master had physical problems for different reasons

For the record, I don't think a master has ever actually lost control of a Berserker in the series proper. The need for command seals in F/Z was because Berserker had trouble with complex plans.

[Joshuam303]

I've assisted with and run a couple games on this premise. I personally used M&M, but in retrospect... maybe another system would have been better. Fate Core would be pretty good.


As said prior, I am not familiar with the system , I'd rather use a system I am used too



I typically had a pretty small disparity between master and servant, maybe 3 or 4 PL difference. But I also encouraged different styles of character design, promoting and encouraging large, varied arrays for masters and more focused, specialized and powerful abilities for servants. Gives each of them their own sort of territory. I also liked giving masters higher than average power points for a similar reason.


So like masters would be like jack of all trades but the servants would be masters of one? and this mix would help one another?



As for magic... well, magic is just a descriptor in M&M. Which is to say, you don't need any special stats or additional rules, M&M has it covered under the basic rules. Just use the power system to design whatever "spells" you want, and give them the flavor of spells and well now they're spells. Look up how descriptors work, that'll explain it.
To directly address your concern, you don't need a magic stat. Don't worry about porting every little detail of the series directly into M&M, just use the M&M rules as is.

Ahh right, I was worried about how magic power would work, since the noble phantasms seem to use large amounts of magic power, so I was wondering how to translate this to M&M but I could just put the tiring description in couldn't I?


Spells are definitely just arrays, as Anonymouswizard said.

Ahh right


For Berserker, my honest advice is for Berserker to not be a player option. The design and idea of berserker is just too good of a DM tool, and too difficult to balance appropriately for players.

Why not? I think if a player has someone who could handle a berserker , then it would be interesting, they'd need to try keep it in reins


Oh, M&M is definitely a great choice for the series, I just personally prefer Fate.

Ahh right fair enough :)


Completely reasonable, my suggestion would be set a total combined PL for master+servant.

yeah that was my idea, but have a limit to how high or low they get, so no master is on servant level fighting skill wise


Servants are weird. Caster (F/Z) probably has less power points than normal for his level, but has a high level Summon power. Conversely, Archer (F/Z) might be built on a lot of points at the beginning of the series (high Abilities all-round, lots of noble phantasms that really shouldn't be an array, and so on), while people like Saber and Rider could conceivably be built on a bit under 200PP (I think 180 sounds about right for Saber).

Yeah I guess, how would this be translated to M&M? maybe depend their PL not on the points only, but the abilities too?


My primary suggestion is to ignore representing the Fate/Stay Night stats, as only half have analogs in M&M (Strength, Agility, and Endurance), and if you do want to gauge the other three (Magic, Magical Energy, and Luck) just estimate it from their character sheet. If you do want a magic stat ID personally recommend Presence over Awareness, but both work, and have it add to magical Damage powers.

Okay as said in a comment I put in response to the other person, it was for purposes of emulating magical energy and such, like a magi using loads of spells so running dry or what not


As Fate/Zero makes clear, unless you're applying the Mad Enhancement to an already god-level servant you don't actually need a large magical energy source, although it is more energy intensive than normal, so a complication for the Master is a decent way to play it on their end. Berserker's master had physical problems for different reasons

Ohh, I thought every berserker required more magical energy than others, I saw fate zero a while back though, and what would be a good way to incorporate this complication?


For the record, I don't think a master has ever actually lost control of a Berserker in the series proper. The need for command seals in F/Z was because Berserker had trouble with complex plans.

Ahh right, I thought they were just like mad dogs that the master had to try keep under a leash

[Anonymouswizard]

Ohh, I thought every berserker required more magical energy than others, I saw fate zero a while back though, and what would be a good way to incorporate this complication?

Oh, they do, it's just not that big a deal if using Berserker as designed (because the Heroic Spirit will be weaker than most beforehand). It's actually not clear if Herakles himself or the Mad Enhancement is the bigger problem prana-wise, although given that weaker mages have summoned Berserker's, it's most likely the former.

[Joshuam303]

Oh, they do, it's just not that big a deal if using Berserker as designed (because the Heroic Spirit will be weaker than most beforehand). It's actually not clear if Herakles himself or the Mad Enhancement is the bigger problem prana-wise, although given that weaker mages have summoned Berserker's, it's most likely the former.

so are you saying berserker's are weak until the mad enhancement kicks in? and also, I was contemplating adding in bonus Power points depending on the fame of the hero, but making it a double edged sword, so champions like Hercules or King Arthur are well known, so they'd get 10 bonus power points , But if someone learns their identity, they will get a -3 to all actions involving the one who knows the truth (kind of like the effect of them knowing said servants weaknesses) since If I recall correctly, the more famous a spirit is, the more powerful they are

[Anonymouswizard]

so are you saying berserker's are weak until the mad enhancement kicks in? and also, I was contemplating adding in bonus Power points depending on the fame of the hero, but making it a double edged sword, so champions like Hercules or King Arthur are well known, so they'd get 10 bonus power points , But if someone learns their identity, they will get a -3 to all actions involving the one who knows the truth (kind of like the effect of them knowing said servants weaknesses) since If I recall correctly, the more famous a spirit is, the more powerful they are

That's most Berserker's are, Herakles is an exception.

The popularity boost is actually supposed to be rather small (Herakles is literally just that freaking strong).

The identity thing is that you can now exploit the hero's weaknesses, it's not meant to be a literal weakening.

[Joshuam303]

That's most Berserker's are, Herakles is an exception.

The popularity boost is actually supposed to be rather small (Herakles is literally just that freaking strong).

The identity thing is that you can now exploit the hero's weaknesses, it's not meant to be a literal weakening.

Ahh right I get it , and I thought it was stronger, and I know that part, but I don't know how to make it so servants can exploit the weakness of others, like how would that work M&M rule wise, that was why I was saying about a modifier in the form of a weakening to kind of simulate the weakness effect, like he get's +3 when attacking because the servant knows how you fight from the legends or whatever xD

[Joshuam303]

What I am confused about though is that, in Fate, master's give their servants some of their magical power, masters with more magic power like tohsaka rin can easily handle such a connection, but masters like shirou or even shinji cannot (IIRC) which was why saber couldn't regen her magical energy and shinji had to resort to soul stealing...

How would such things be put in M&M terms? since there is no magical power stat..... maybe have it as it's own descriptor? like if someone wants large magical power it'll cost 10 PP, or if someone wants small it'll be 0 PP, medium amounts would be 5PP?

Then depending on their magical power, their servants would regenerate faster as well as have more reserves themselves?

[Anonymouswizard]

Shiro could sustain Saber, just not at full Strength (see Saber controlled by anyone else). His problem was more of a botched summoning.

Shinji doesn't even have a magic circuit, although I'm not sure if this is stated outside of the VN. That's why he has the book, but he's also a fake master, Rider's original master can fully sustain her. Name avoided for those who don't know it's Sakura.

All in all, unless a master isn't using Berserker as intended, has a magic circuit, and avoids casting a lot, there shouldn't be any problems. Rin runs out of prana at the end of UBW, but doesn't pass out.

[Joshuam303]

Shiro could sustain Saber, just not at full Strength (see Saber controlled by anyone else). His problem was more of a botched summoning.

Shinji doesn't even have a magic circuit, although I'm not sure if this is stated outside of the VN. That's why he has the book, but he's also a fake master, Rider's original master can fully sustain her. Name avoided for those who don't know it's Sakura.

All in all, unless a master isn't using Berserker as intended, has a magic circuit, and avoids casting a lot, there shouldn't be any problems. Rin runs out of prana at the end of UBW, but doesn't pass out.

Ahh right, and for players who aren't a magi, should I put them at a -1 on stats for their servants?

also do you have an idea on how parameters would fit into Mutants? Like saber at full has a A in strength, how would this be put into M&M?

My idea was have like 2 points for parameter so like

0-2 in a stat = E
2-4 in a stat = D
4-6 in a stat = C
6-8 in a stat = B
8-10 in a stat = A
10+ = Ex

[Joshuam303]

I am confused about how to represent the A+ or B+'s , should I just leave them out? since the effect they give is basically what people do with hero points