Help me make a melee sorcerer, one who preferably uses fire...lots of fire

[dev6500]

Since a few days ago I haven't been able to shake the idea of a draconic sorcerer wading into melee and unloading on enemies as if he were a regular melee character.

In my attempt to build that somehow, I've come across a few ideas.
1. Green Flame blade boosted by elemental affinity.
2. Elemental weapon boosted by elemental affinity.
3. Charisma based shillelagh.
4. Quickened GFB for additional swinging in combat.
5. Polearm master + war caster for GFB on OA.

#1 and #4 can be completed with just Sorcerer 6.
#2 and #3 can be completed with lore bard 6.
#5 can be completed by 4th level(if variant human) assuming a DM agrees that the Polearm master and war caster interaction works with GFB. This is a RAW grey area that others have argued about. I do not intend to argue the RAW component of their interactions. I am just looking for ideas people have about optimizing such a build.

So for ideas I currently have, I would need to go Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 6 before most of the combos work together. Not sure what order one should go in so that the build comes to fruition earlier.

[newsman77]

Since a few days ago I haven't been able to shake the idea of a draconic sorcerer wading into melee and unloading on enemies as if he were a regular melee character.

In my attempt to build that somehow, I've come across a few ideas.
1. Green Flame blade boosted by elemental affinity.
2. Elemental weapon boosted by elemental affinity.
3. Charisma based shillelagh.
4. Quickened GFB for additional swinging in combat.
5. Polearm master + war caster for GFB on OA.

So for ideas I currently have, I would need to go Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 6 before most of the combos work together. Not sure what order one should go in so that the build comes to fruition earlier.

Perhaps you're trying for too much, too soon? Honestly with all that, you'd need what... level 12 before it pays off. Most campaigns that I found run from 1 to about 15 realistically.

What if you went Warlock Undying Light/Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline. By level 6, you could get 1,2,3 & 4, or something close. That's half the levels of your Bard 6/Sorcerer 6.

For that I would start Sorcerer for your con saves, then dip into Warlock for 3 levels to get Pact of the Tome for Shillelagh, then back to Sorcerer for the other 3. Then you go back to Warlock for the rest. I'm playing this combo now and I love it. I'm away from my book, but I think that would make your Greenflame Blade 1d8+Cha +2xCha (Undying Warlock & Draconic Bloodline bonuses).

[PeteNutButter]

Warlock (tome) lvl 3 gets the cha shillelagh sooner.

If you really want to wade into melee, your going to take quite a beating with just your sorcerer AC 13+dex and a d8(sorta) hit die. I'd suggest taking a lvl of a class that gives a little armor.

Cleric maybe war domain, gives you heavy armor and you can just trade your wis dump for dex dump and keeps your spell slots coming.

The ever popular paladin 2 is of course an option. There is also fighter. If you don't want to multiclass, mountain dwarf at least gives medium armor.

If you want to go the cleric route, you can go sorcerer for first lvl and dip one lvl cleric and have both heavy armor AND con saves. That's likely the easiest way you'll get both of these essential things for a gish.

Shillelagh is nice to reduce MAD, but you may find a blade warlock can do most of what you are looking for.

[lebefrei]

Well I was coming in here to suggest Undying Light Warlock as well. It gives bonus damage on fire spells (meets your requirement) and Searing Vengeance is a really satisfying way of staying alive in melee combat. As said above it is also a way to grab shillelagh.

[dev6500]

Perhaps you're trying for too much, too soon? Honestly with all that, you'd need what... level 12 before it pays off. Most campaigns that I found run from 1 to about 15 realistically.

What if you went Warlock Undying Light/Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline. By level 6, you could get 1,2,3 & 4, or something close. That's half the levels of your Bard 6/Sorcerer 6.

For that I would start Sorcerer for your con saves, then dip into Warlock for 3 levels to get Pact of the Tome for Shillelagh, then back to Sorcerer for the other 3. Then you go back to Warlock for the rest. I'm playing this combo now and I love it. I'm away from my book, but I think that would make your Greenflame Blade 1d8+Cha +2xCha (Undying Warlock & Draconic Bloodline bonuses).

That seems like a much more doable build. I may have been too hung up on elemental weapon.

So if you dump elemental weapon from the build, you go sorc 1/ warlock of undying light 3(shillelagh)/ sorc 5 . I will think on that and see where else I would want to go with a build based on that.

[Sander]

Paladin/Sorcerer, as reasonably widely acknowledged by now, is a fairly amazing build assuming you don't have to conserve resources over massive amounts of time. Pal 2/Sorc x would be my recommendation, but otherwise Pal 6/Sorc x works as well (for that sweet, sweet aura). Undying Light warlock also has amazing synergy with the build, on its own or combined with the paladin dip (2x cha to damage, anyone? Yes, please!). A lot of DM's I know, my own included, wouldn't ever let this combo happen, however. It isn't decidedly game-breaking, but it is... well... disgustingly good when you combine Sorc's elemental affinity with the Undying Light lv.1 ability and add a sprinkle of smites on top, so I honestly don't blame them.

[Corran]

5. Polearm master + war caster for GFB on OA.

#5 can be completed by 4th level(if variant human) assuming a DM agrees that the Polearm master and war caster interaction works with GFB. This is a RAW grey area that others have argued about. I do not intend to argue the RAW component of their interactions. I am just looking for ideas people have about optimizing such a build.

I dont mean to argue about RAW, but I am pretty sure that you also need spell sniper in order to be able to cast GFB at 10 feet, assuming a polearm ofc. So that is 3 feats, in polearm master, warcaster, and spell sniper.

That said, this particular combo probably does not work with GFB (regarding your OA's), as it is not a spell that targets a single target, due to its secondary effect. In that, there has been some valid (imo) arguing, about whether or not you can use it in such a way, if you forgo triggering the secondary effect. Whatever the case may be in that respect (so even if you are indeed able to use GFB with this combo), your better choice is to use BB with this combo, as you are guaranteed the secondary damage, since you strike at 10 feet and the enemy still needs to move another 5 feet to reach you (unless he also has reach). Hence the secondary effect of BB triggers, and you deal a heck lot of damage with your reaction. A valid tactic all in all, but it requires a lot of investment (3 feats minimum). You can improve this tactic by taking a 4th feat in mobile (or a rogue 2 dip for cunning action), so you can move away and ensure that you will use your reaction in this very damaging way a lot more often.

However, this is working with BB, and for a fire damage based sorcerer you might want to look at other options as far as the use of your reaction is concerned. Hellish rebuke is such an alternative (if you acquire this spell with a much useful warlock dip - I will analyse that later in another post, sine I want first to read the rest of this thread), and it will work nicely with you elemental afinity (assuming fire). Plus, there is always shield to compete for your use of reaction on a regular basis.

Anyway, here are my 2 cents regarding this aspect of your potential build, so imo if you are not willing to invest heavily in this strategy to make the most of it, then maybe you better forget it entirely, as investing a feat in polearm master wont do you much good in any other case than what I described above.

[RaynorReynolds]

I dont mean to argue about RAW, but I am pretty sure that you also need spell sniper in order to be able to cast GFB at 10 feet, assuming a polearm ofc. So that is 3 feats, in polearm master, warcaster, and spell sniper.

Why would you need spell sniper?

[Corran]

Why would you need spell sniper?
Because the cantrip (BB/GFB) still has a range of 5 feet, so you need some way to at least double the range to 10 feet (spell sniper, or the distant spell metamagic, or sth similar in that fashion), and ofc you still need a weapon with reach, as the spell requires a weapon attack.

[Coyote81]

I think the polearm master is a bit wasted(You have other uses for you BA and the AOO and warcaster is very grey), Great Weapon Master would make you a little more dangerous(And picturing a huge flaming sword is much cooler). I've also heard many times that you can hold the great weapon in one hand and cast with the other, allowing you to bypass warcaster as long as you are not trying to attack and cast a spell with a somatic component at the same time.

Human(v) Warlome of the tome(Undying Light)3 Dragonic Sorceror 6

This gets you:
1. Green Flame blade boosted by elemental affinity.
2. Elemental weapon boosted by elemental affinity.
3. Charisma based shillelagh.
4. Quickened GFB for additional swinging in combat.
5. Polearm master + war caster for GFB on OA. (A lot of people don't think GFB works with warcaster since it effectively targets 2 people)
6.Find Familiar for Help action and out of combat shenanigans, and Identify for all your magic item needs
7.Guidance and vicious mockery too
8. 2x CHA on fire spells
9.As a warlock you can also allow yourself to detect magic at will, combos well with identify. Never need another arcane class in that respect ever again.


-So this build (imo) is much better off as a dex build
-Also look at taking 1 level in Rune Scribe for the fire rune, it makes all of your weapon attacks fire and lets you reroll damage on fire spells/and melee attacks. Also gives you an auto hit fire attack, cold resistance, and a couple interesting options, especially if you keep going down that class line.

[dev6500]

Because the cantrip (BB/GFB) still has a range of 5 feet, so you need some way to at least double the range to 10 feet (spell sniper, or the distant spell metamagic, or sth similar in that fashion), and ofc you still need a weapon with reach, as the spell requires a weapon attack.

Well the build so far has assumed one is using a staff considering the focus on getting charisma based shillelagh. So, likely it would not require spell sniper.



I think the polearm master is a bit wasted(You have other uses for you BA and the AOO and warcaster is very grey), Great Weapon Master would make you a little more dangerous(And picturing a huge flaming sword is much cooler). I've also heard many times that you can hold the great weapon in one hand and cast with the other, allowing you to bypass warcaster as long as you are not trying to attack and cast a spell with a somatic component at the same time.

Human(v) Warlome of the tome(Undying Light)3 Dragonic Sorceror 6
.
.
.
-So this build (imo) is much better off as a dex build
-Also look at taking 1 level in Rune Scribe for the fire rune, it makes all of your weapon attacks fire and lets you reroll damage on fire spells/and melee attacks. Also gives you an auto hit fire attack, cold resistance, and a couple interesting options, especially if you keep going down that class line.

Its an interesting idea. Things to note about the build ideas so far. Great Weapon master is 50% wasted on the build as the staff is not a heavy weapon and I won't be able to use the -5/+10 option with the staff. Using a staff with shillelagh lets me dump str and use charisma for hit and damage from level 4 on.

I also realize that GFB might not work with war caster since it can target more than one creature even though it doesn't always target more than 1 creature. So I will de-emphasize that for the sake of optimizing a build.


Ok I will present several amended build ideas.

draconic sorcerer 1/ undying light tome warlock 3/ draconic sorcerer 5/lore bard 6
This build takes advantage of the early access to shillelagh provided by undying light tome warlock.
1st lvl is basically a regular sorcerer in terms of effects.
2nd level, fire bolt damage goes up to d10 + charisma. Add d6 if target is hexed
4th level, you get shillelagh which makes melee effective. You now can deal d8 + charisma and 2*charisma to secondary target with GFB
5th level, you now deal d8 + cha + d8 + cha fire/ d8+ cha with GFB
6th level, can now quicken GFB or other spells. Possibility of doubling damage.
9th level, GFB now d8 + cha + d8 + 2*cha fire/ d8 + cha
11th lvl, d8 +2d8 + 3cha/ 2d8+ cha
15th lvl, d8 +2d8 + 3d4 +5cha/ 2d8 + cha now that you have access to elemental weapon.
16th lvl, can glyph of warding a 5th level hex spell for all day hex minus concentration requirement.
17th lvl, d8 + 3d8 + 3d4 + 5cha/ 3d8 + 3cha

draconic sorcerer 1/ undying light tome warlock 3/ draconic sorcerer 5/ 9 Paladin (oathless or devovtion)
Stays the same as above until Paladin levels.
Lvl 11, Great Weapon fighting allows rerolls of 1/2 on damage rolls. You also get smite for increased nova ability.
Lvl 12 , if devotion paladin, add charisma to hit for minute with sacred weapon
lvl 16, if oathless paladin d8 +2d8 + 4cha/ 2d8+ cha
lvl 18, if oathless paladin, d8 + 3d8 + 3d4 + 6cha/ 3d8 + 3cha

Points for these builds, increased OAs with Polearm master is still a great damage boost even without war caster. GWF style will boost damage from GFB, Elemental weapon, and smites as well.

Also since I am not sure if radiant soul and elemental affinity add to only 1 of the 2 targets damage I left the boost off of the secondary target for

[newsman77]

Well the build so far has assumed one is using a staff considering the focus on getting charisma based shillelagh. So, likely it would not require spell sniper.


Its an interesting idea. Things to note about the build ideas so far. Great Weapon master is 50% wasted on the build as the staff is not a heavy weapon and I won't be able to use the -5/+10 option with the staff. Using a staff with shillelagh lets me dump str and use charisma for hit and damage from level 4 on.

I also realize that GFB might not work with war caster since it can target more than one creature even though it doesn't always target more than 1 creature. So I will de-emphasize that for the sake of optimizing a build.


Ok I will present several amended build ideas.

draconic sorcerer 1/ undying light tome warlock 3/ draconic sorcerer 5/lore bard 6
This build takes advantage of the early access to shillelagh provided by undying light tome warlock.
1st lvl is basically a regular sorcerer in terms of effects.
2nd level, fire bolt damage goes up to d10 + charisma. Add d6 if target is hexed
4th level, you get shillelagh which makes melee effective. You now can deal d8 + charisma and 2*charisma to secondary target with GFB
5th level, you now deal d8 + cha + d8 + cha fire/ d8+ cha with GFB
6th level, can now quicken GFB or other spells. Possibility of doubling damage.
9th level, GFB now d8 + cha + d8 + 2*cha fire/ d8 + cha
11th lvl, d8 +2d8 + 3cha/ 2d8+ cha
15th lvl, d8 +2d8 + 3d4 +5cha/ 2d8 + cha now that you have access to elemental weapon.
16th lvl, can glyph of warding a 5th level hex spell for all day hex minus concentration requirement.
17th lvl, d8 + 3d8 + 3d4 + 5cha/ 3d8 + 3cha

draconic sorcerer 1/ undying light tome warlock 3/ draconic sorcerer 5/ 9 Paladin (oathless or devovtion)
Stays the same as above until Paladin levels.
Lvl 11, Great Weapon fighting allows rerolls of 1/2 on damage rolls. You also get smite for increased nova ability.
Lvl 12 , if devotion paladin, add charisma to hit for minute with sacred weapon
lvl 16, if oathless paladin d8 +2d8 + 4cha/ 2d8+ cha
lvl 18, if oathless paladin, d8 + 3d8 + 3d4 + 6cha/ 3d8 + 3cha

Points for these builds, increased OAs with Polearm master is still a great damage boost even without war caster. GWF style will boost damage from GFB, Elemental weapon, and smites as well.

Also since I am not sure if radiant soul and elemental affinity add to only 1 of the 2 targets damage I left the boost off of the secondary target for

Those look nice. However, just my two cents: I'm going to advise you against taking more than 1 multiclass. You become too MAD, plus I feel as though you will limit your character.

Either do Sorcerer/Warlock - Which can be a fine build, or Paladin/Warlock. Why? Because with these selections, you're limiting yourself to 3rd levels spells at best, even though you'll get higher spell slots. Speaking of spell slots. Warlock does not count for spell slots. Granted, you can make your own with metamagic. Paladin only counts for like half or a third. I can't remember, I'm away from book atm. You're mainly using them for smites, but still. You'd be better off with Warlock/Paladin or Sorcerer/Paladin.

Also, ASI's. You're limiting yourself to only 3 over the course of your entire character's career. Other characters will get 5 or more. Remember, ASI is tied to every 4 levels of a class, not character level. You're taking 2 feats, which means 1 ASI. You could fix that by going Variant Human, but even then, you're limiting your main attack stat.

Another thing you're going to miss out on... is class features. I'd look ahead to see what you're missing out on and whether it's worth it. This has become a big point with my multiclass characters. At level 5 (2 Warlock/3 Sorcerer) sure I can do cool things, but the rest of the pack is at double attack, fireball, haste, ASI while I'm a little behind. Class features do tend to get more powerful as you level up. With that said, you did get the Paladin 6 Aura which is awesome, but you get it so late in the game. +CHA to every save has been powerful at our table.

No offense, but it looks like you're kinda trying to build a one trick pony with Greenflame Blade and stacking Cha bonuses. Just throwing this out there, but aren't you going to run into an issue with spells slots? GFB is a cantrip, sure, but you're using spells to smite and for sacred weapon, spell points to quicken GFB. That kinda juice takes a toll, and I don't know if you'll have the spell points to sustain it for long. You're going to run up against true melee characters who can deal solid sustained damage throughout the adventuring day without expending the huge amount of resources you will.

You're build will do fabulous amounts of damage, but only for a short time. Trust me, some builds look amazing on paper, but that doesn't always translate to the game.

EDIT: Food for thought, with both of these builds, your ASI's are coming at level 7 & 13 and then maybe 17, compared to everyone else's 4, 8, 12, 16. Now, with bounded accuracy of this edition, you might not be hurting yourself too much, but think about that when building for feats and what not. Do you really want them to come that late in your characters career?

[dev6500]

Those look nice. However, just my two cents: I'm going to advise you against taking more than 1 multiclass. You become too MAD, plus I feel as though you will limit your character.
.
.
.
EDIT: Food for thought, with both of these builds, your ASI's are coming at level 7 & 13 and then maybe 17, compared to everyone else's 4, 8, 12, 16. Now, with bounded accuracy of this edition, you might not be hurting yourself too much, but think about that when building for feats and what not. Do you really want them to come that late in your characters career?

Thanks for the advice. Although the character is multiclassing multiple times, the character shouldn't really be MAD. Warlock/Sorcerer/Bard is all charisma and with shillelagh, you use charisma to attack in melee. With Warlock/Sorcerer/Paladin you use all charisma and just need 13 str to meet multiclass prereq.

For lost ASI's, I also see the issue there. One might tweak some class levels so that you get more of them. 1 more level of warlock nets you a 4th ASI and the build does not need war caster or polearm master especially if the DM does not ok the interaction between the two for the build. So the class should have enough ASI's to max out charisma and get a relatively high dex or con, whichever you prefer.

The damage levels I posted were for cantrip use without smites. So I am mainly showing off the baseline damage. So at the mid point of the build around 11th level(paladin version), you get an average of 30.75 damage to main target of GFB without smites. Secondary target gets an additional 14 damage On a nova round, you can quicken and bump to 61.5 avg/28. On a super nova round you can also smite but this burns resources even faster. At 18th level that bumps up to an avg of 60 on main target and 28.5 on secondary. Quicken nets you 120/57 dpr rounds and smites can still be thrown in.

It is less 1 trick than other melee characters considering I do have some spell options to throw around as well. Also really only needs 1 main stat.

Seems comparable to eldritch blast builds in terms of dpr but with higher nova capability. Thank you again for the suggestions. ASIs are a problem, fire resistance/immunity is still a problem. Still needs more help to become viable.

[ruy343]

If you want, go the Giant's route for his "Fire King" villain, and use fireball as a melee spell targeting yourself. Draconic sorcerers can get fire resistance, and a level or two of rogue (or 7 of monk) can get you evasion (I'm AFB so those numbers are guesses...)

[Oramac]

Cleric maybe war domain, gives you heavy armor and you can just trade your wis dump for dex dump and keeps your spell slots coming.

This, or Tempest Cleric, is what I would do.

In fact, it's what I did. Two levels of Tempest Cleric and the rest in Storm Sorc. Heavy armor, shields, and martial weapons.

Congrats, you're a melee Sorcerer.

As for fire damage, go War Domain instead of Tempest and just take all the fire spells you can get your grubby little hands on.

EDIT: If you can find some Mithral armor fairly soon, you can even dump Str and use a Dex weapon.

[Coyote81]

BTW is you really want a melee caster without having to get warcaster, try making a minotaur sorcerer. You get a melee weapon, shield and still have a free hand for casting. Can make use of Booming blade horn and green flame blade Horn. This of course would be a str build, but with draconic armor and, you start at 15ac before dex/spells. Makes for a great tanky/melee caster. Just don't use ranged attack spells at point blank range.

[Citan]

Since a few days ago I haven't been able to shake the idea of a draconic sorcerer wading into melee and unloading on enemies as if he were a regular melee character.

In my attempt to build that somehow, I've come across a few ideas.
1. Green Flame blade boosted by elemental affinity.
2. Elemental weapon boosted by elemental affinity.
3. Charisma based shillelagh.
4. Quickened GFB for additional swinging in combat.
5. Polearm master + war caster for GFB on OA.

#1 and #4 can be completed with just Sorcerer 6.
#2 and #3 can be completed with lore bard 6.
#5 can be completed by 4th level(if variant human) assuming a DM agrees that the Polearm master and war caster interaction works with GFB. This is a RAW grey area that others have argued about. I do not intend to argue the RAW component of their interactions. I am just looking for ideas people have about optimizing such a build.

So for ideas I currently have, I would need to go Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 6 before most of the combos work together. Not sure what order one should go in so that the build comes to fruition earlier.
Hi OP!

I'm sorry if my proposition has already been submitted.
I actually created a thread not so long ago about optimised fire builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476301-WildFire-(Fire-dedicated-builds-with-questions-about-rulings)).
There were a bit different from yours though.

So my take would be (in disorder).
Undying Light Tome Warlock 3: Shillelagh + bonus damage on fire/radiant spells + Empowered Eldricht Blast.
Vengeance Paladin 11. You could go Lore Bard 6, but while Extra Attack is wasted later, I feel if brings better survivability and you get extra radiant damage on every melee attack.
Draconic Sorcerer 6.

Drop STR to multiclass requirement, start as high CHA as possible. Start variant Human Paladin so you can get your Polearm Master directly.
Go Warlock as your 2nd character level for GFB and bonus damage. You're now dealing pretty good damage already. Now...
- either level Paladin up to 6 for spells, smite and protection, and ASI (Cha boost)
- or go Sorcerer 6 first for boost damage on fire attack.
You will be character level 7/8.
Now up the one you didn't choose until you get your second ASI (Warcaster) then immediately take the remaining levels of Warlock to get AEB and Shillelagh.
Finish up the remaining levels in the order you want.

If you don't want Paladin 11, then stick with Paladin 3 Vengeance or Devotion) and take your Lore Bard levels as planned.

Also, note that there is a debate on whether Draconic/Undying bonus would apply on each hit made with Elemental Weapon active.
Apparently, a Twitter ruling would forbid this (although I find this really stupid ^^). So check with your DM before going this route.
If he allows it, nice. Otherwise, you'd much better drop the idea and pick up Absorb Elements which is a great spell for your build. Conversely, you could do this with Magic Secrets obviously, but also with a 1lvl dip in Druid/Wizard, swapping Paladin for Eldricht Knight or, maybe even better, using a ASI on Magic Initiate.
This could make your build much simpler.
Example: Warlock 4 / Fighter 4 / Sorcerer 12.

Have fun :)

[Foxhound438]

sorc 3
twin green flame
2x attacks each dealing damage to 2 targets; 2d8 + 12 at L3, L5 have 4d8 thrown in
basically magical cleave that doesn't require killing each target
warlock 5, short rest SP recovery capability, extra attack for when multiple targets aren't found
->sorc 15, grab quicken for even more gfb's, other sorc stuff

[Degwerks]

sorc 3
twin green flame
2x attacks each dealing damage to 2 targets; 2d8 + 12 at L3, L5 have 4d8 thrown in
basically magical cleave that doesn't require killing each target
warlock 5, short rest SP recovery capability, extra attack for when multiple targets aren't found
->sorc 15, grab quicken for even more gfb's, other sorc stuff

You can't Twin GFB, that cantrip can target 2 people, so it doesn't qualify for twinning.

[GanonBoar]

Start fighter 1 for heavy armor, fighting style, and weapons. Variant Human so you can take Polearm master right off the bat. Use a glaive or halberd with the great weapon fighting style. I know using strength is a bit strange, but hear me out.

Level 2-20, go Draconic Sorcerer. You get GFB and stuff, and at Sorc 4 you can take War Caster. Ta-da! Whenever a creature comes within 10 feet you can cast GFB on them.

[EvilAnagram]

Be Variant Human
Take Weapon Master and gain Rapier proficiency
Take 1-20 levels of Dragon Sorcerer
Take Green-Flame Blade and other fire-based spells


Extra Attack is not important when you have Green-Flame Blade, and if you really want two attacks you can just take Booming Blade and Twin it.

Mandatory plug for my Sorcery guide!

[Arkhios]

Be Variant Human
Take Weapon Master and gain Rapier proficiency
Take 1-20 levels of Dragon Sorcerer
Take Green-Flame Blade and other fire-based spells



This.
Also, don't forget Elemental Adept feat. While it won't let you ignore full Fire Immunity, it does help a lot if you can ignore Resistance. After all, fire is both very common and perhaps the most-often-resisted damage type.

[Oramac]

Be Variant Human
Take Weapon Master and gain Rapier proficiency
Take 1-20 levels of Dragon Sorcerer
Take Green-Flame Blade and other fire-based spells


Extra Attack is not important when you have Green-Flame Blade, and if you really want two attacks you can just take Booming Blade and Twin it.

Mandatory plug for my Sorcery guide!

What he said as well.

Also keep in mind that Extra Attack doesn't work with GFB or BB.

[EvilAnagram]

This.
Also, don't forget Elemental Adept feat. While it won't let you ignore full Fire Immunity, it does help a lot if you can ignore Resistance. After all, fire is both very common and perhaps the most-often-resisted damage type.

Good point here. Elemental Adept is pretty much the only feat you'll need.

Starting stats:
8 Str
15+1 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
10 Wis
15+1 Cha

Second or third ASI should probably be Elemental Affinity, the others should be Cha and Dex.

For spells, look for anything fire related and anything that pumps your survivability.

[Coyote81]

Don't forget to look at the fire spells from the Elemental Evil list, their are some nice ones there. Like Melf's Minute Meteors and The Scorcher. Spell selection is the really important part for a sorcerer.

[Carlos Barreto]

Just my two cents...

Draconic Resilience offers some gish potential to any sorcerer: the +1 to HP is effective d8 hit die and the AC 13+ Dex modifier is better than any non-magical light armor. Combine that with a 14+ Constitution and you will be fine.

However, if you really want to melee, you just can't forgo Dex in the name of Char and Shillelagh. Dex will increase your chance to hit and damage with any finess weapons and, most importantly, will increase your AC, something essential to anyone who enter in melee range. Sure, you can find a way to use medium armor and stick with Dex 14 so you can focus entirely on Char and Con, but that will make part of your Draconic Resilience redundant and will also reduce your melee capabilities. Embrace some little MADness, as it's not as a big problem as it used to be in previous editions (attribute cap to 20 and +2 for each ASIs).

The challenge is to find a way to get proficiency with a finess weapon other than a dagger. Fighter 1 is a nice light dip: Weapon and shield proficiency (shields will improve your AC, but you will need Warcaster feat) and a Fighting Style. Draconic Resilience favors Dex-based sorcerers, so it's likely you would pick a finess weapon over a heavy weapon, therefore dueling would be a viable choice. But since you attack just once per turn, maybe a better option is to pick the Mariner Fighting Style if you don't use shields (maybe because you don't want to deal with the Warcaster feat).

Others said that and I'll reinforce: Don't bother with Extra Attack. The new cantrips boots your melee damage nicely and they don't interact at all with Extra Attack (although the Sorcerer can use a Attack+Extra Attack+Quicken Spell cantrip for a third attack+damage bonus). The only viable mix between Extra Attack and Green-Flame Blade/Booming Blade is through Favored Soul Sorcerer, mainly because they get it as a class feature, avoiding the necessity of taking 5 levels in a non-sorcerer class..

[Oramac]

The challenge is to find a way to get proficiency with a finess weapon other than a dagger.

This is why I suggested taking a level or 2 of Cleric. It's a smidge on the MAD side, but assuming you go War or Tempest Domain, you get Heavy Armor (Mithral gets around the strength requirement), Shields, and Martial Weapons, plus all the normal Cleric-y goodness.

Not to mention, having a blaster that can toss out a Twinned Healing Word as a bonus action is actually really damn useful.

[EvilAnagram]

This is why I suggested taking a level or 2 of Cleric. It's a smidge on the MAD side, but assuming you go War or Tempest Domain, you get Heavy Armor (Mithral gets around the strength requirement), Shields, and Martial Weapons, plus all the normal Cleric-y goodness.

Not to mention, having a blaster that can toss out a Twinned Healing Word as a bonus action is actually really damn useful.

It's much easier to just be a Variant Human and spend your feat on weapon proficiency. It's also less MAD.

[Oramac]

It's much easier to just be a Variant Human and spend your feat on weapon proficiency. It's also less MAD.

True. At that point it really comes down to the character a person wants to make. Whether a person is just going for straight optimization or not.

Personally, I'm a sucker for Darkvision, so I tend not to play Vhumans.

EDIT: and taking Vhuman with Weapon Master doesn't get him medium/heavy armor or shields either, which could be a deal breaker.

[EvilAnagram]

EDIT: and taking Vhuman with Weapon Master doesn't get him medium/heavy armor or shields either, which could be a deal breaker.

That only matters if you're completely married to Str-based weapons.

[Oramac]

That only matters if you're completely married to Str-based weapons.

Sorry? How do Str weapons matter at all?

If he goes Vhuman with Weapon Master he gets 4 weapons, which can include Dex based weapons. That was the original point in Carlos Barreto's post.

But taking a level or 2 of Cleric gets him not only Martial Weapons (assuming War/Tempest Domain), but also nets Medium/Heavy Armor and Shields, which Weapon Master does not grant. Plus, he'd get 3 more Cantrips, and up to 6 more spells in a spell starved class. Not a bad trade for taking a 13-14 Wisdom, I'd say.

But then, it still all comes down to just how optimized he wants to be, and what character concept he wants to play. Six of one, half dozen of another.

[EvilAnagram]

Sorry? How do Str weapons matter at all?

If you're going for a Dex build, then you already have an AC of 13+Dex from your Dragonblood feature. By high levels, that's an AC of 18 with Shield giving you a +5 when necessary. That's higher than Medium can give you without the MAM feat, and it's equal to Heavy Armor. You don't get to use a shield, but a shield would necessitate War Caster, sucking up an ASI when you've already created a MAD build in order to multiclass into Cleric, keeping you from ever getting Elemental Adept if you want both your magic and physical attacks to be effective.

So the Cleric multiclass is MAD, but still needs feats to match (for medium armor) or exceed (with shields) the AC that you get from just being a Dragon Sorcerer.

Variant Human Weapon Master doesn't lose a single ASI to a feat tax and lacks nothing but shields, which aren't necessary.

[Oramac]

Truncated

Variant Human Weapon Master doesn't lose a single ASI to a feat tax and lacks nothing but shields, which aren't necessary.

Gotcha. Though that's specific to the Draconic Origin. For the OP, that's the way to go, and I'll definitely agree.

For any other Origin, however, the multiclass would work better since they don't have Draconic Resilience. My Tempest Sorc has a 19AC with 14 dex, half-plate, and a shield, before Shield or any potential magic items. Granted, I have no intent of ever using a melee weapon, so no need to take War Caster. That allows me to pick up Ele Adept while still pumping stats with ASI's.

This assumes, of course, the player even wants the armor/weapons/extra spells.

[EvilAnagram]

snip

Oh yeah, in general you can have a very effective build with cleric levels, but it all depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it. I was referring specifically to this case, in which a cleric multiclass just isn't worth the hassle, especially since the two stated goals for the character were to hit things and burn things.

[PeteNutButter]

If you're going for a Dex build, then you already have an AC of 13+Dex from your Dragonblood feature. By high levels, that's an AC of 18 with Shield giving you a +5 when necessary. That's higher than Medium can give you without the MAM feat, and it's equal to Heavy Armor. You don't get to use a shield, but a shield would necessitate War Caster, sucking up an ASI when you've already created a MAD build in order to multiclass into Cleric, keeping you from ever getting Elemental Adept if you want both your magic and physical attacks to be effective.
So the Cleric multiclass is MAD, but still needs feats to match (for medium armor) or exceed (with shields) the AC that you get from just being a Dragon Sorcerer.
Variant Human Weapon Master doesn't lose a single ASI to a feat tax and lacks nothing but shields, which aren't necessary.

With the Cleric MC, you can dump dex in favor of str (and 13 wis) so you can pick better weapons, and you only need plate to beat the dex build's AC, since you will NOT likely have a 20 dex anytime soon in a build that is MAD like you said. Even picking up splint will put his ac higher than the 16 he'll likely sit on w the dex build for the bulk of the character's play time. He has his primary stat to increase first along with possible feats. Plate gives you that 18 AC a whole lot sooner.

And as for feats, War Caster is pretty much a must have even if you don't use a shield because of its other benefits. Who want's to wade into combat with a self-cast haste when they only have a 16 or 17 AC (+5 with shield spell) and don't have adv on con saves? Within two rounds you'll be losing concentration and subsequently your entire next turn.

[EvilAnagram]

snip.

I don't know why you made this post. I already said that the cleric multiclass is better is better for a strength build. I just said that going with dexterity and wielding a rapier is less MAD and probably works better given his specifications.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't know why you made this post. I already said that the cleric multiclass is better is better for a strength build. I just said that going with dexterity and wielding a rapier is less MAD and probably works better given his specifications.

Was refuting your observations about AC and feats. It's basically not true that the dragon sorc can compete reasonably with the AC of heavy armor. While he may ultimately catch up if the MC one doesn't use a shield, he will be a few points behind for the majority of play.

The only real benefit to avoiding the MC is not being behind on spells known and a SP. (which is significant)

[EvilAnagram]

Was refuting your observations about AC and feats. It's basically not true that the dragon sorc can compete reasonably with the AC of heavy armor. While he may ultimately catch up if the MC one doesn't use a shield, he will be a few points behind for the majority of play.

The only real benefit to avoiding the MC is not being behind on spells known and a SP. (which is significant)
Oh, okay.

Yeah, your AC will be slightly worse until it's basically the same, or slightly worse forever compared to using a shield.

But the trade-off is that you'll be better offensively. If you're going to multiclass into Cleric, you won't be able to start off with high Charisma, high Dex, and moderate Con. One of those will have to suffer so your Wis can reach multiclass level. That's just a fact of life. If it's your Con, your concentration suffers until you get War Caster. If it's your Dex, your melee suffers. If it's your Cha, your spell's suffer. You're essentially trading off combat effectiveness for slightly higher AC, which is a terrible trade in my opinion. At least with Strength builds you can justify it by focusing a bit on melee to make your physical attacks beastly, and you'll still be worse until you get that Cleric level.

That's in addition to losing the spell and SP progression.

[Oramac]

Though that's specific to the Draconic Origin. For the OP, that's the way to go, and I'll definitely agree.

Actually having thought about it, I have to change my mind and disagree.

If we're talking about making a character that starts at high level (around level 12+), then yes, the Draconic Resilience is the way to go.

But for a character that starts at 1, it would be a loooooooong time before the Draconic feature overtook the armor from Cleric. Consider:

Vhuman Draconic with Weapon Master and 27 point buy:

Stats: 8, 15+1, 14, 8, 10, 15+1

To get Draco to the full 18 AC and weapons, you have to use your first two ASI's to pump Dex instead of Cha. So you get the 18 AC at 8th level, at the expense of spell attack and DC bonuses (from bumping Cha), and losing Ele Adept until 12th level as the earliest. Then you don't get the full 20 Cha until 19th level. That's a hell of a long time to wait in exchange for 4 weapons and a max 18 AC.

Compared to the Cleric MC:

Vhuman non-Draconic (or Draconic ignoring the AC feature), with Ele Adept:

Stats: 8, 13+1, 12, 10, 14, 15+1

Take a level of Sorc for Con saves, then 1-2 levels of Cleric for medium/heavy armor and shields/weapons (probably War domain), then 17-18 more levels in Sorc. You get up to a 19AC as soon as you can get half-plate, and 17AC probably as soon as you take the Cleric level(s) using a Chain Shirt, and a 20AC if you can find a set of Mithral Plate. Use your first ASI (at char level 5-6) for War Caster, and from there all ASI's can bump Cha to 20 by character level 13-14.

So with the Cleric MC, you get your AC faster, and you bump Cha faster as well as getting all weapons (instead of just 4 with Weapon Master) and armor.

You can also switch the Feats and take War Caster from level 1, and grab Ele Adept at Sorc 4. Plus, all of this still works with the Draconic Riders once you get Sorc 6.

[EvilAnagram]

I honestly do not understand the mentality by which people sacrifice offensive capability and basic progression for a minor boost in AC. Do you know what a 16 AC is at levels 1 through 3? A perfectly decent AC. It's probably what any fighter without a shield is rockin.

At level 4, you can focus more on melee, or you can focus more on spells, but it won't matter much because a 16 AC is still pretty good, especially when you have Shield and Mirror Image. By level 8, you can definitely get your AC up to 17, matching what a Rogue or Ranger would have, and still have Haste, Mirror Image, and Shield to protect you.

You don't need levels in Cleric for this. Without them you'll have more metamagic, more spells, and earlier ASIs.

So yeah, you can spread out your ability scores, weaken your offensive capabilities, delay your spell progression, and delay your Sorcerer features in exchange for slightly better AC, but why would you?

[Oramac]

I honestly do not understand the mentality by which people sacrifice offensive capability and basic progression for a minor boost in AC.

But that's exactly what you're saying he should do with the Draconic Resilience. In order to get the 18 AC, he has to sacrifice offense to spend 2 ASI's on Dex for the 18AC. If you wait on that, you're looking at having a 16AC all the way through 12th level (assuming you use 4 and 8 for Ele Adept and War Caster, or bumping Cha), which is not nearly as good as a 16AC at 3rd level.

Having to take Weapon Master as your Vhuman feat really hurts.

EDIT: And with the Cleric MC, you're not really losing anything except a sorcery point or two. You follow the MC full-caster spell slot table, which is exactly the same as the Sorcerer table, and you gain 3 Cleric cantrips and at least 4 Cleric spells. Plus, it's incredibly simple to pick Cleric spells that are A) on the Sorcerer spell list too, or B) don't use a saving throw or attack roll.

[EvilAnagram]

But that's exactly what you're saying he should do with the Draconic Resilience. In order to get the 18 AC, he has to sacrifice offense to spend 2 ASI's on Dex for the 18AC.

I apologize if I seem rude, but I have no idea what you mean by this. It's as if someone told me, "If you're against spending all your money, then why do you have a savings account?" I have a savings account precisely because I'm against spending all of my money. Similarly, I suggest boosting dexterity because the OP wishes to be good in melee, and dexterity boosts his offensive melee abilities. Boosting his dexterity increases both his offense and defense, not to mention improving his initiative. Saying that boosting is dexterity somehow hurts his offensive capability or delays its improvement is simply not true.

Beyond that, it's perfectly fine to delay improving his dexterity. I have no problem with that, but he seemed to want to be decent in melee, so I suggested improving it early. Remember, we are still talking about the specific needs of a specific person's build.


Having to take Weapon Master as your Vhuman feat really hurts.
It doubles the size of his damage die and gives him an excuse to grab an odd weapon proficiency. It really doesn't hurt.


EDIT: And with the Cleric MC, you're not really losing anything except a sorcery point or two. You follow the MC full-caster spell slot table, which is exactly the same as the Sorcerer table, and you gain 3 Cleric cantrips and at least 4 Cleric spells. Plus, it's incredibly simple to pick Cleric spells that are A) on the Sorcerer spell list too, or B) don't use a saving throw or attack roll.
You're delaying spells known, ASIs, spell point accumulation, and Sorcerer features (like the one that lets you add Cha to damage). And you get some 1st Level Cleric spells that help neither with hitting things nor with burning them. You know, the two things the OP wants to do.

Again, going with a cleric level or two is reasonable for many builds. However, this thread is about a specific character a specific person wishes to play, not about sorcerer builds in general.

[Oramac]

I apologize if I seem rude, but I have no idea what you mean by this. It's as if someone told me, "If you're against spending all your money, then why do you have a savings account?" I have a savings account precisely because I'm against spending all of my money. Similarly, I suggest boosting dexterity because the OP wishes to be good in melee, and dexterity boosts his offensive melee abilities. Boosting his dexterity increases both his offense and defense, not to mention improving his initiative. Saying that boosting is dexterity somehow hurts his offensive capability or delays its improvement is simply not true.

It's a question of efficiency. GFB bases the secondary damage on your spellcasting modifier, not Dex. So bumping Dex nets a +2 attack/damage bonus for the weapon only by 8th level. If you start with a 16 Cha and a 14 dex, as in the build I posted, you get one more ASI to Cha and Ele Adept, or 2 ASI's to Cha. Both of those function to either negate resistance and give GFB a +4 damage bonus on the rider (feat plus 18 Cha), or give GFB a +5 damage on the rider (20 Cha). This is at 10th level.

To compare apples to apples, forget the second ASI in the above, and you have GFB either ignoring fire resistance or doing a +4 damage on the rider (both assuming 8th level). In either case, I feel like that's worth more than +2 for weapon attacks/damage, especially since with the above, you actually get a better AC. Also, since the spells bonus features work with character level, you get the additional fire damage at the same time you get your first ASI.

Taking one level of Cleric (which is all the OP would need), only delays the other features by one level, in exchange for a higher bonus on GFB, not needing Weapon Master at all, Heavy armor, shields, ALL weapons, and extra Cleric spells.

[EvilAnagram]

It's a question of efficiency.

Here is the efficient way to do things: Start with 16 Dex and 16 Cha.

After that, boost Charisma and Dex or grab Elemental Adept in whatever manner pleases you.

Boosting Dex adds exactly as much damage to your total in the damage calculation as boosting Cha does, though boosting Cha only adds it to the secondary damage. However, boosting Dex also increases your chance to hit (and AC and initiative). That makes Dex a better choice for ASIs with specific regards to melee.

Now, you can boost Dex or Cha in whatever way you please. It doesn't really matter terribly much, since both are essential though I'd grab the feat by 10.

However, having 14 in whatever stat you wish to use to hit things is a really, really bad idea because you won't be hitting things that often, especially around level 10.

[Oramac]

Ok, so start with a 16 Dex and Cha, then do what I said.

But clearly we're not going to convince each other. And in any case, it's ultimately up to the OP which direction he takes the character.

So I'll thank you for your time and take my leave.

[Arkhios]

The following might not be the best or highly optimized build, and is subject to a lot of DM discretion, but I find it interesting and viable idea:

Dragonborn (Gold/Red) Draconic Sorcerer (Gold/Red).
Pick Tavern Brawler at 4th level, and wear steel gauntlets (maybe something like artificial "claws"). Technically, gauntlets could be treated as improvised weapons. Or at least clawing with them could be an improvised use of them. As per RAW, an improvised weapon is treated like any other weapon (note, not like unarmed strike!), and therefore could be used in tandem with Green-Flame Blade. Of course a gauntlet should deal damage equal to your unarmed, and due to your feat, that would be 1d4. Since gauntlets are very easy to handle, as they are part of your hand, I'd call them finessable and light, too. (honestly, I find it's stupid that unarmed strikes are not, by default both finesse and light weapons)

You would want a high constitution, not only because lots of hit points and good saves, but also because of breath weapon, which is one more close combat ability for you (15-ft. cone).
Obviously you'll want high charisma too.
Additionally, high dexterity should come near second to charisma. Of course, if you manage to get proficiency with heavy armor early on, you could just as well focus on strength. (Maybe with Fighter 2/Sorcerer X+).

In the end you would become like a medium-sized humanoid dragon, complete with wings, "claw" attacks, and a breath weapon, bathing your foes in fire.
With Quickened Green-Flame Blade, you could emulate missing Extra Attack, but deal some impressive amounts of (fire) damage consistently each turn.
I'm AFB, but IIRC sorcerers had access to Alter Self; grab natural weapons from there and grow a tail too :smalltongue: