Spells that target type and disguised type

[erok0809]

So say you've made an NPC who's actually a dragon in human form, and then the party casts charm person on that NPC thinking they're human. Now, obviously the dragon isn't affected by it, since he's not of the Humanoid type. However, what do you tell the party? It's not just that the spell doesn't work on him, he's not even a valid target. I personally feel the caster of the spell should realize something is up since he can't seem to target the NPC with his spell, rather than just telling the player "it doesn't seem to affect him" with a fake die roll behind the screen for a Will save, but what do you guys think should happen? Does the dragon even notice he's had a spell cast at him, or does it never even touch him because he's not a valid target?

[Troacctid]

With a single-target spell like Charm Person, the caster knows whether the target succeeds or fails on the saving throw. So in this case, they'll know that the spell failed without a save being rolled. From there, they might deduce that the target is not a humanoid creature, although that is, of course, only one possible explanation—they could also be a humanoid who happens to be immune to enchantments, for example.

The dragon will probably be aware that you cast a spell, since you just wiggled your hands at him and spoke a word of arcane power. A Spellcraft check would reveal what spell exactly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The caster knowsthe spell fails but not why and the dragon knows it has been targettedwith a hostile spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow


Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

Note that the caster doesn't know -why- his spell failed, only that it did.

[Necroticplague]

So say you've made an NPC who's actually a dragon in human form, and then the party casts charm person on that NPC thinking they're human. Now, obviously the dragon isn't affected by it, since he's not of the Humanoid type. However, what do you tell the party? It's not just that the spell doesn't work on him, he's not even a valid target. I personally feel the caster of the spell should realize something is up since he can't seem to target the NPC with his spell, rather than just telling the player "it doesn't seem to affect him" with a fake die roll behind the screen for a Will save, but what do you guys think should happen? Does the dragon even notice he's had a spell cast at him, or does it never even touch him because he's not a valid target?

I'd just tell him"you feel your spell abruptly stop when it hits your target, who doesn't even seem to recognize something happened. " It might be because he's not a humanoid. He might simply be immune to mind-effecting, under the effects of Protection from Evil, because the spiders in his brain are doing him a solid, or any other number of reasons he could no-sell something with immunity only slightly rarer than dust mites.

[erok0809]

I guess I just think about the spells a little differently, more like what Necroticplague wrote. The way I'm thinking about it, the spell couldn't even activate properly, because the target isn't valid. It's not like he's just autosaving on it, the dragon never has to make a save because the spell can't target him. Basically, I think the spell should fizzle, or the caster should have to pick a different target, because it can't even be cast on the dragon. And yeah, sorry, I should have been more specific in the first post, the dragon is unaware of the spell being cast, like it's silent and stilled or something.

[Troacctid]

I guess I just think about the spells a little differently. The way I'm thinking about it, the spell couldn't even activate properly, because the target isn't valid. It's not like he's just autosaving on it, the dragon never has to make a save because the spell can't target him. Basically, I think the spell should fizzle, or the caster should have to pick a different target, because it can't even be cast on the dragon.

Yes, that's how the rules treat it as well. The dragon never makes a saving throw. The spell simply fails. If the dragon didn't observe the casting, it would be unaware that a spell had been cast at all. The spell is wasted, and the caster cannot choose a new target.

[Crake]

Note that the caster doesn't know -why- his spell failed, only that it did.

Actually, if you note the wording used there, it's only clear the spell failed if the target succeeds their saving throw. If they never even rolled anything, then the caster simply gets no feedback, as if he had cast the spell on a rock or the like.

Likewise, since the dragon got no saving throw to succeed/fail on, he will also not get a hostile tingle when the spell hits him, so won't know the spell was cast (assuming the caster can disguise his spellcasting in the process, either by still/silent, or having it as an SLA).

[nedz]

The question here is about information flow. Does the Charm Person spell provide information about the creature type of the target ? Not by RAW: and so your response has to reflect that.

It is very difficult but if you tell the caster that the spell fizzles then this is a clue they could use to break the disguise. Maybe this is not a bad thing, but it's not a thing Charm Person does.

The rules are actually silent on the issue, they only cover the cases where the target makes, or fails, their save.