Charm Person useage

[GutterFace]

When you use charm person, the description says, they regard you as a friendly acquaintance. as DM's how much would a friendly acquaintance do for you?
if you asked them to flee would they, join you would they, give you money or possessions?
since the spell has a long duration, once case can you spend your time gaining more trust and friendship with that person?

[Sigreid]

I think it would be like a casual friend. Will they fight for you? Probably not. Will they look the other way while you "sneak past" or unlock the door for you if you're reassured them that you're no threat to their other friends? I think so.

As far as the second portion, I've often thought if you have someone who leans hostile you could charm them, buy them a drink and have a great time with them being genuinely friendly and before it wears of say "I didn't want to fight you because I didn't want to hurt you, or for you to hurt me so I charmed you with magic. When it wears of, I hope you will remember that when I could have taken advantage of you that's not what I wanted and maybe think that I'm a stand up guy you can respect and be a real friend with."

[Shaofoo]

As far as the second portion, I've often thought if you have someone who leans hostile you could charm them, buy them a drink and have a great time with them being genuinely friendly and before it wears of say "I didn't want to fight you because I didn't want to hurt you, or for you to hurt me so I charmed you with magic. When it wears of, I hope you will remember that when I could have taken advantage of you that's not what I wanted and maybe think that I'm a stand up guy you can respect and be a real friend with."

Why would you tell them that you've messed with their minds? That kind of ruined any (false) goodwill that you built up with the person, especially when the person had an initial hatred on you that will resume.

That is like the Fighter saying "I could've cleaved your skull in half with my huge sword yet I bought you drinks, you can trust me", I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to be friends with someone that admitted that messed with their heads.

[RickAllison]

Why would you tell them that you've messed with their minds? That kind of ruined any (false) goodwill that you built up with the person, especially when the person had an initial hatred on you that will resume.

That is like the Fighter saying "I could've cleaved your skull in half with my huge sword yet I bought you drinks, you can trust me", I don't think anyone in their right mind would want to be friends with someone that admitted that messed with their heads.

Because the magic has the added clause that the person knows they were charmed anyway :smallbiggrin:. Either way, the person knows, but this way you were honest with them.

[lebefrei]

As a DM if you were attempting to continue an alliance with them or whatever after charm person ends I'd probably make you roll persuasion that you don't have to be enemies. If their cause is in opposition to yours I'd give you disadvantage, especially as you just controlled them with magic. If you could be allies anyway... Well, again, you just controlled them with magic. This is not a good starting point for diplomacy.

As for the spell itself, it ends if you or your companions do anything harmful to it... to me this includes trying to influence it to perform dangerous tasks. It is only a level 1 spell, it shouldn't really give you too much power over someone.

[Shaofoo]

Because the magic has the added clause that the person knows they were charmed anyway :smallbiggrin:. Either way, the person knows, but this way you were honest with them.

Yeah I don't think anyone will want to be friends with someone that tried to influence them with magic regardless on the stance on magic. If you truly want a long term relationship with someone trying to use magic to force their mind is a very bad move especially when they remember everything that you have done. Even if you didn't make them do anything bad against them it is still a violation against their person.

[Calimehter]

Yeah, Charm Person isn't a good starting point for a long term friendship. Even if there is an altruistic motive behind it. Setting the bonds of compulsion on someone just doesn't leave a good impression, no matter how many times you tell them "it is for their own good" (which is what it will sound like no matter how you phrase it).

That is not to say it can *never* work. Stockholm syndrome is a thing, after all. But it is never a *good* starting point.

[Sigreid]

Yeah I don't think anyone will want to be friends with someone that tried to influence them with magic regardless on the stance on magic. If you truly want a long term relationship with someone trying to use magic to force their mind is a very bad move especially when they remember everything that you have done. Even if you didn't make them do anything bad against them it is still a violation against their person.

I think I didn't get the point across. The idea is, for example a bar fight is about to start over nothing and you're only using the spell to give you a chance to cool things off. It's not about trying to take advantage of the person.

[Addaran]

I don't see it as being necessarily a bad starting point. A few examples that could go well.

ex: You come to kill an evil sorcerer-king that just murdered his father for the crown, but charms his guards so they don't stop you. The guards will probably be happy you charmed them instead of casting fireball and you've saved them from a tyrant to be.

ex: You're with a bunch of road thugs and you spot a merchant with a huge bodyguard. You charm the bodyguard, kill the merchant and take the loot. Then you offer the bodyguard a share of it and a place in your gang. If he's more interested in money then honor, he could be down with it.

ex: You're falsely accused of a crime by a high ranking noble and the city guards are after you. Charms the guards to get away without causalities. After clearing your name, you can explain that you couldn't get caught cause your word meant nothing compared to the noble's.


That's probably even better then punching them non-lethally in the face until they pass out like the barbarian wanted. =P

[RickAllison]

I don't see it as being necessarily a bad starting point. A few examples that could go well.

ex: You come to kill an evil sorcerer-king that just murdered his father for the crown, but charms his guards so they don't stop you. The guards will probably be happy you charmed them instead of casting fireball and you've saved them from a tyrant to be.

ex: You're with a bunch of road thugs and you spot a merchant with a huge bodyguard. You charm the bodyguard, kill the merchant and take the loot. Then you offer the bodyguard a share of it and a place in your gang. If he's more interested in money then honor, he could be down with it.

ex: You're falsely accused of a crime by a high ranking noble and the city guards are after you. Charms the guards to get away without causalities. After clearing your name, you can explain that you couldn't get caught cause your word meant nothing compared to the noble's.


That's probably even better then punching them non-lethally in the face until they pass out like the barbarian wanted. =P

But I like punching people non-lethally in the face, especially when it involves stealing valuables!

[Shaofoo]

I think I didn't get the point across. The idea is, for example a bar fight is about to start over nothing and you're only using the spell to give you a chance to cool things off. It's not about trying to take advantage of the person.

If the point is to diffuse a situation then that is possible but if you try to do anything long term with the person you will have to contend with the fact that the person will know you messed with his mind so his disposition will be hostile.

Also there is Calm Emotions if you wish to diffuse a situation which doesn't have the added drawback of the person knowing you messed with his mind.


I don't see it as being necessarily a bad starting point. A few examples that could go well.

ex: You come to kill an evil sorcerer-king that just murdered his father for the crown, but charms his guards so they don't stop you. The guards will probably be happy you charmed them instead of casting fireball and you've saved them from a tyrant to be.

I wouldn't be happy if I was charmed against my will. Also why wouldn't the guards stop you, just because you charm them doesn't mean that you get free reign over the castle suddenly. Charm Person is not mind control to let you do as you please, I wouldn't let a friend have sudden access to controlled locations in my workplace just because we are suddenly buds. And if the guards are really against the tyrant then was charming even necessary?


ex: You're with a bunch of road thugs and you spot a merchant with a huge bodyguard. You charm the bodyguard, kill the merchant and take the loot. Then you offer the bodyguard a share of it and a place in your gang. If he's more interested in money then honor, he could be down with it.

The bodyguard can still kill your other members (and if they hurt the body guard then the spell is over) and even if it was you, the merchant and the bodyguard he can still grapple, shove and push you back if he wants to protect his merchant. And if he is more interested in money than honor after all is said and done then why not kill you and take everything while you are down and out?


ex: You're falsely accused of a crime by a high ranking noble and the city guards are after you. Charms the guards to get away without causalities. After clearing your name, you can explain that you couldn't get caught cause your word meant nothing compared to the noble's.

Or the guards can try to take you in without trying to harm you, probably using non lethal methods like whatever is the D&D equivalent of tear gas or just grapples, shoves, manacles and nets. Charming a guard that is chasing you will just keep his blade sheathed if you don't do anything else to convince him. Again this is not mind control, you will still have to convince the guards why you should stop chasing him and things will not be good after the spell wear off so even if you do clear your name you will still be under arrest for charming the guards (which should be a law), you are still in trouble.

Basically if you just want to escape and never look back then you could charm the guards but if you do want to go back you will have to face the crime that you did commit.


That's probably even better then punching them non-lethally in the face until they pass out like the barbarian wanted. =P

At the very least they won't feel betrayed that the Barbarian was his friend, and punches don't cost spell slots.

[eastmabl]

But I like punching people non-lethally in the face, especially when it involves stealing valuables!

I hate this knockouthobo attitude in 5e.

[Sigreid]

If the point is to diffuse a situation then that is possible but if you try to do anything long term with the person you will have to contend with the fact that the person will know you messed with his mind so his disposition will be hostile.



Fair point, I probably should have worded it more in the original as "...I hope even if we're not exactly cool, we don't have to be sworn enemies." or something like that.

Edit: Or even better. "You're a good man, and I like you. I hope we don't have to fight, but I'll understand if we must."

[RickAllison]

I hate this knockouthobo attitude in 5e.

Well, when you play characters whose primary source of income is theft and are literally homeless, knockouthobo is actually in-character. If I was playing a noble knight, that would be awful RPing, but not every character has to be lawful good.

[Sigreid]

Well, when you play characters whose primary source of income is theft and are literally homeless, knockouthobo is actually in-character. If I was playing a noble knight, that would be awful RPing, but not every character has to be lawful good.

The homeless thing kind of makes me laugh. One of the first things my characters tend to do with their loot is secure a cottage or townhouse in a pretty safe area to use as a home base.

[Telok]

I think I rolled an acolyte background that was literally a homeless orphan with a grudge against the world. The rules gave me a murderhobo character background.

I don't think Charm is a very useful spell or power in this edition. Between the casual friendship limit and the clause about automatically knowing that you mind controlled them you can't be sure of anything except that they won't attack you untill the duration is up. Of course once the spell wears off they'll probably hate you and they certainly won't trust you. You'd beter be ok with making an enemy unless they're powerless against you or you're going to kill them.

[Sigreid]

I think I rolled an acolyte background that was literally a homeless orphan with a grudge against the world. The rules gave me a murderhobo character background.

I don't think Charm is a very useful spell or power in this edition. Between the casual friendship limit and the clause about automatically knowing that you mind controlled them you can't be sure of anything except that they won't attack you untill the duration is up. Of course once the spell wears off they'll probably hate you and they certainly won't trust you. You'd beter be ok with making an enemy unless they're powerless against you or you're going to kill them.

A way to have some fun with the characters would be to go the other way. We know in the real world there are people who enjoy surrendering their will, even if only for a short while, to another. It would be pretty funny if the PC charmed or dominated a person only to find the person really liked it and now won't leave them alone, like a junkie begging a dealer for their next fix.

[Ronnocius]

How I would use charm person would be to make the target regard the caster as a good friend. An example: You and the rest of the party are in jail. You and the party immediately take a liking to each other and devise a clever plan to escape, but it needs the cooperation of another very strong inmate. The inmate decrees your plan too complicated to work and refuses to help, out of fear of being punished if it fails. You or a party member somehow cast charm person on the prisoner. The inmate agrees to listen to your plan once again. You manage to convince him (through a Charisma (Persuasion) check possibly?) that your plan will work. The party executes the plan, and the other prisoner correctly completes his job. The prisoner accompanies you out of the cell and through the prison. Because charm person doesn't require concentration, he battles alongside you in all of the combat encounters you face. Once you leave the prison, the spell wears off. The inmate doesn't attack you because the spell ended up getting him out of prison without any major injuries, even if he leaves the party before helping you out of the city or region.


So, in my understanding, charm person would make people more reasonable or willing to listen/help you.