3.5e Two-Handed Greatsword Bardblade Maneuver/Stance Progression Help

[muskasurfer]

Hello,

Main Point of Post:I am seeking information and advice on my current maneuver progression. In addition, I am curious as to which 5 maneuvers I should ready for combat.

This character will be joining the party at an ECL of 14. In addition, I'm following the BladeSinger 3.5e Optimized build found at dandwiki. I plan on my character playing a lute instead of singing. In addition, I somewhat followed Keld Denar's two weapon kukri build's maneuver progression plan found at Giantitp.

The other additional PCs in the party are: (1) A tripper who uses a whip; (2) Sorcerer; (3) Druid; (4) Monk; (5) Archer; and some weird (6) Factotum/Chameleon build.

I understand this character I will be playing isn't as high-tiered as some of the others, but I like the flavor and RP possibilities of the BardBlade.

Character: ECL 14 - Bard [4] Warblade [10]
Final Build: ECL 14 - Bard [4] Warblade [16]

I will be using a two-handed weapon (Greatsword).

Feats:

• Dragontouched
• Draconic Heritage (Battle - Force)
• Power Attack
• Dragonfire Inspiration
• Song of the White Raven
• Song of the Heart
• Iron Heart Aura
• Words of Creation
• Stormguard Warrior
• Combat Reflexes


Maneuver/Stance Progression - This is the area I am primarily concerned with. Most of the information I have found on the Bardblade deals with Two-weapon fighting, but I am not optimizing my character that way. Keep in mind that I will not be starting at an ECL of 1. I will be joining the party at an ECL of 14. I've chosen maneuvers from Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, White Raven, and Iron Heart.



ECL
IL
Maneuver Gained
Maneuver Lost
Stance


1
0
NA
NA
NA


2
1
NA
NA
NA


3
1
NA
NA
NA


4
2
NA
NA
NA


5
3
Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap
NA
Punishing


6
4
Tactical Strikes
NA
NA


7
5
Moment of Perfect Mind
NA
NA


8
6
White Raven Tactics
Tactical Strikes
Tactics of the Wolf


9
7
Wall of Blades
NA
NA


10
8
Death from Above
Rabid Wolf Strike
NA


11
9
Pouncing Charge
NA
NA


12
10
Dancing Mongoose
Death from Above
NA


13
11
Iron Heart Surge
NA
NA


14
12
Order Forged from Chaos
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Hearing the Air


15
13
Swooping Dragon Strike
NA
NA


16
14
Swarming Assault
Sudden Leap
NA


17
15
Raging Mongoose
NA
NA


18
16
White Raven Hammer
Dancing Mongoose
NA


19
17
Warmaster's Charge
NA
NA


20
18
Mountain Tombstone Strike
Swooping Dragon Strike
Swarming Tactics



This progression follows the required prerequisites for each maneuver. I researched and found out that I only need the prerequisite to initially choose the maneuver. After that, I am allowed to trade out the prerequisite maneuver.

I am overwhelmed by the number of good maneuvers to choose from. I did my best to pick a balance of boosts/strikes/counters etc...

Q.1. Is there a better way I can optimize my maneuver progression for a two-handed greatsword bardblade build? Am I trying to choose from too many disciplines?

Q.2. What 5 Maneuvers should I have ready at my ECL of 14? I am thinking: Dancing Mongoose (TC - Boost); Pouncing Charge (TC - Strike); Iron Heart Surge (IH - Other); White Raven Tactics (WR - Boost; and Wall of Blades (IH - Counter).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and respond.

[Darrin]

I plan on my character playing a lute instead of singing.


Kinda hard to play a lute (and thus activate Draonfire Inspiration) while wielding a greatsword.



Most of the information I have found on the Bardblade deals with Two-weapon fighting, but I am not optimizing my character that way.


Armor spikes + Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC) = TWF. Actually, Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic) might work better for you, as you can Power Attack via Improved Unarmed Strike.

However, one of the great things about Dragonfire Inspiration build is it doesn't rely entirely on TWF to be effective. It's a force-multiplier for the entire party, so if you don't get as many attacks as a typical bardblade, it's not the end of the world.



Q.1. Is there a better way I can optimize my maneuver progression for a two-handed greatsword bardblade build?


Your maneuver progression looks good. My recommendations: I'd like to see Mountain Hammer in there somewhere, because it's just too darned useful, but I'm having a hard time trying to find something I'd take out for it. Maybe get a Novice Stone Dragon Belt? I would also consider replacing Tactics of the Wolf with Pearl of Black Doubt, with the idea of taking Quicksilver Motion later, then Time Stands Still instead of War Master's Charge. Yeah, TSS is more of a TWF thing, but two full attacks with a greatsword is nothing to sneer at. At level 16, I'd be tempted to keep Sudden Leap and trade Dancing Mongoose for Raging Mongoose (no sense in having them both unless you're going to ready them both at the same time). That lets you take Swarming Assault at 17th. Or if you want both Dancing + Raging Mongoose, maybe swap Sudden Leap with Quicksilver Motion at 16th (swift action movement, and if you need to jump just make it part of your move) and take Raging Mongoose at 17th.

Your picks (and mine) are heavy on boosts and counters, which might suggest TWF, but they work just as well for full attacking with a greatsword. The nice thing about Dragonfire Inspiration is it doesn't matter so much what you attack with, as you're buffing the entire party.



Am I trying to choose from too many disciplines?


No, those are all good choices.



Q.2. What 5 Maneuvers should I have ready at my ECL of 14? I am thinking: Dancing Mongoose (TC - Boost); Pouncing Charge (TC - Strike); Iron Heart Surge (IH - Other); White Raven Tactics (WR - Std. Action); and Wall of Blades (IH - Counter).


Those are all solid choices. Are there house rules for IHS and WRT? The former is generally a standard action while the latter is a swift action.

[muskasurfer]

Thank you very much for the insightful response, Darrin. I really appreciate it. You have definitely given me some material to think on. For now, this is what I have come up with in response to your advice.


Kinda hard to play a lute (and thus activate Draonfire Inspiration) while wielding a greatsword.

Right... I thought about that as well. I may pick up some perform sing and modify it as short poems/lyrics/or tales. That being said, I just plan to use the first round to buff with dragonfire inspiration. Yes, the buff will only last 5 rounds, but that's fine with me. Heck, I think the DM will appreciate the character not being too OP that way. Also, the singing in general doesn't fit the backstory I've written for the character.


Armor spikes + Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC) = TWF. Actually, Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun), Ring of Might (4000 GP, Magic of Faerun), or Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic) might work better for you, as you can Power Attack via Improved Unarmed Strike.

I will definitely look into these items. Thank you for the suggestions. It'd definitely be convenient to have a backup plan to attack if I for some reason don't have access to my Greatsword.


However, one of the great things about Dragonfire Inspiration build is it doesn't rely entirely on TWF to be effective. It's a force-multiplier for the entire party, so if you don't get as many attacks as a typical bardblade, it's not the end of the world.

Exactly, I want my character to be effective enough without being too overpowered on his own even though we do have PCs like a druid and sorcerer in the party. I'll just be able to help buff up our monk, tripper, and even the druid if he goes into raptor/melee shapeshift form etc.

Maneuvers:

Below is the re-vamped maneuver progression table. I made changes according to your recommendations. I wasn't able to sneak Quick Silver Motion into the build, but I kept Sudden Leap, which in a way functions similarly to QSM in regards to movement etc. Also, I will most likely pick up the stone dragon belt to get access to the Mountain Hammer Strike. Lastly, I can't pick up the Pearl of Black Doubt stance, because I need Tactics of the Wolf White Raven stance to be able to use the Song of the White Raven feat which allows me to use my bardic inspire courage as a swift action.

You recommended to keep Sudden Leap at initiator level 14 and swap Dancing Mongoose for Raging Mongoose, but I am unable to do that since, I have to be IL 15-16. I had to improvise. That improvisation involved me losing dancing mongoose before raging mongoose. Also, I had to take raging mongoose at IL 16 instead of IL 15.



ECL
IL
Maneuver Gained
Maneuver Lost
Stance


1
0
NA
NA
NA


2
1
NA
NA
NA


3
1
NA
NA
NA


4
2
NA
NA
NA


5
3
Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap
NA
Punishing


6
4
Tactical Strikes
NA
NA


7
5
Moment of Perfect Mind
NA
NA


8
6
White Raven Tactics
Tactical Strikes
Tactics of the Wolf


9
7
Wall of Blades
NA
NA


10
8
Death from Above
Rabid Wolf Strike
NA


11
9
Pouncing Charge
NA
NA


12
10
Dancing Mongoose
Death from Above
NA


13
11
Iron Heart Surge
NA
NA


14
12
Order Forged from Chaos
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Hearing the Air


15
13
Disrupting Blow
NA
NA


16
14
Swarming Assault
Dancing Mongoose
NA


17
15
Swooping Dragon Strike
NA
NA


18
16
Raging Mongoose
Swooping Dragon Strike
NA


19
17
War Master's Charge
NA
NA


20
18
Time Stands Still
Disrupting Blow
Stance of Alacrity



I got rid of: Mountain Tombstone Strike, Swarming Tactics (Stance), White Raven Hammer
I added instead: Disrupting Blow, Time Stands Still, and Stance of Alacrity (Stance)


Those are all solid choices. Are there house rules for IHS and WRT? The former is generally a standard action while the latter is a swift action.

There are no house rules. I accidentally made a typo. Both maneuvers will function as intended.

Q.1. What are your opinions of the changes I have made? It's a bummer that I have to get rid of Disrupting Blow since it allows for a stun/daze. I did research and found that DB is a better bang for your buck compared to White Raven Hammer. It'd be nice if I could keep Disrupting Blow and not have to trade it out for Time Stands Still, but I figure TSS will have a bigger pay off at level 20 (if we get there).

I look forward to reading what you think.

Thanks again for your time.

[Darrin]

I will definitely look into these items. Thank you for the suggestions. It'd definitely be convenient to have a backup plan to attack if I for some reason don't have access to my Greatsword.


What I meant was armor spikes and unarmed strike can be used as offhand weapons *with* your greatsword. Unarmed strike is preferred because even though it's still a light weapon, it can be used with Power Attack.



Lastly, I can't pick up the Pearl of Black Doubt stance, because I need Tactics of the Wolf White Raven stance to be able to use the Song of the White Raven feat which allows me to use my bardic inspire courage as a swift action.


Sorry, I missed that. I usually try to pick up Leading the Charge or Bolstering Voice along with Punishing Stance, but Hearing the Air is 1) darned useful and 2) a prereq for TSS.



Q.1. What are your opinions of the changes I have made? It's a bummer that I have to get rid of Disrupting Blow since it allows for a stun/daze. I did research and found that DB is a better bang for your buck compared to White Raven Hammer. It'd be nice if I could keep Disrupting Blow and not have to trade it out for Time Stands Still, but I figure TSS will have a bigger pay off at level 20 (if we get there).


I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Disrupting Blow is superior to White Raven Hammer. Disrupting Blow depends on a Will save with a DC that doesn't scale, while White Raven Hammer has no save at all. It just stuns, period, no questions asked, do not pass GO. Damage is better, too. The only advantage I see to Disrupting Blow is that creatures immune to stunning would be immune to, well, being stunned, and Disrupting Blow is not labeled as either stun or daze so there's no way to be immune to it.

The two maneuvers I'd consider swapping out would be Order Forged From Chaos and Swarming Assault. Not that those two aren't already awesomesauce, more like your problem is now "which flavor of awesomesauce do you prefer?"

So, I'm not saying you should change anything, but consider:

15th (IL 13): Quicksilver Motion
16th (IL 14): Swarming Assault (although I prefer Clarion Call)
17th (IL 15): White Raven Hammer
18th (IL 16): Raging Mongoose

[Maxrim]

In your feats, did you mean Dragonfire Inspiration (Sonic)? Because A) Battle Dragons do sonic, and B) Dragonfire Inspiration can't deal force damage.

In your party, I wouldn't worry about matching up optimization-wise too much. Your monk and archer's bajillion attacks each will love you forever, and put the three of you on the playing field with the full casters.
Cast Inspirational Boost before you get going for +10d6 damage on everything for the party, that's probably better than Venomfire/Fleshraker because it isn't a solo tactic.

[muskasurfer]

In your feats, did you mean Dragonfire Inspiration (Sonic)? Because A) Battle Dragons do sonic, and B) Dragonfire Inspiration can't deal force damage.

In your party, I wouldn't worry about matching up optimization-wise too much. Your monk and archer's bajillion attacks each will love you forever, and put the three of you on the playing field with the full casters.
Cast Inspirational Boost before you get going for +10d6 damage on everything for the party, that's probably better than Venomfire/Fleshraker because it isn't a solo tactic.

You're correct. Again, yet another typo/mistake I've made with my post. I apologize for that.

Yah, that's the goal. I feel as though our Druid, Sorcerer, and my Cleric (which will be exiting the party for my new character) outperform our tripper, monk, and whatever this Factotum/Chameleon build is doing (all I know is he goes into Willow Wisp, zaps stuff and can't be touched or seen... I feel as though the character may be a little broken). I definitely plan on casting inspirational boost before I get going. I'm excited to see how this new character in action with our party.

Thank you for the response!

[Gabrosin]

A bard? With maneuvers? I feel like I've been summoned.

I'll second the assessment of White Raven Hammer. This maneuver is amazing. Anything that's not immune to stunning is going to be devastated by it. With WRT and Tactics of the Wolf you only need one other White Raven maneuver to qualify for it, and there are several good choices... any of which you can still trade out for War Master's Charge later.

If you're short on Diamond Mind maneuvers for Time Stands Still, you should swap Punishing Stance out for a first-level Diamond Mind stance. It's not going to be a better choice than Tactics of the Wolf in most cases (since you want to be in a WR stance anyway for Song of the White Raven), and you qualify into IHS with Wall of Blades, both of which are fantastic on their own.

You should at least consider finding space for Iron Heart Focus. Getting to reroll any save is pretty outstanding. You've got a tremendous recovery mechanic, so it's not like you need to be loaded up with a ton of strikes; spare some space for defensive maneuvers too!

[muskasurfer]

What I meant was armor spikes and unarmed strike can be used as offhand weapons *with* your greatsword. Unarmed strike is preferred because even though it's still a light weapon, it can be used with Power Attack.

Oh! I see now. I used this same strategy on my Battle Cleric.


Sorry, I missed that. I usually try to pick up Leading the Charge or Bolstering Voice along with Punishing Stance, but Hearing the Air is 1) darned useful and 2) a prereq for TSS.

No problem at all! I find it difficult tracking and planning out maneuver progression. I wish it was a little easier to manage everything. Then again, I'm probably optimizing a little too much.


I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Disrupting Blow is superior to White Raven Hammer. Disrupting Blow depends on a Will save with a DC that doesn't scale, while White Raven Hammer has no save at all. It just stuns, period, no questions asked, do not pass GO. Damage is better, too. The only advantage I see to Disrupting Blow is that creatures immune to stunning would be immune to, well, being stunned, and Disrupting Blow is not labeled as either stun or daze so there's no way to be immune to it.

Right, I agree with you. I found a post on here where a member ranked and discussed the different maneuvers in each discipline. The post mentioned how Disrupting Blow does everything WRH does but better at a lower level. That being said, DB does have the disadvantage of having to make a Will saving throw. I apologize if I made it seem like DB was superior to WRH. I meant to say DB is available at a lower level, it works very similarly to WRH which potentially opens up a later level maneuver slot for a maneuver other than WRH.


The two maneuvers I'd consider swapping out would be Order Forged From Chaos and Swarming Assault. Not that those two aren't already awesomesauce, more like your problem is now "which flavor of awesomesauce do you prefer?"

So, I'm not saying you should change anything, but consider:

15th (IL 13): Quicksilver Motion
16th (IL 14): Swarming Assault (although I prefer Clarion Call)
17th (IL 15): White Raven Hammer
18th (IL 16): Raging Mongoose

After reviewing the character's backstory and writing in some more material, I noticed I was steering away from the character's idiosyncrasies and qualities. I know I don't have to have every little feat/maneuver etc. match up with the backstory, but I'd like for everything to make sense thematically and conceptually.

The ideas I have in mind for the character are: he's sharp-witted, observant and mentally focused; disciplined and loyal; transitions between maneuvers/stances etc. with fluidity and natural order (an instinctual ability that involves presence and awareness)

He's not really a leader or combatant who unleashes his inner feral rage to attack. That being said, he is dragontouched and therefore dragonblooded, but I've implemented it in such a way where it affects his musical prowess and not his civility or combativeness. I may be totally off on this for the sake of DND Lore (I'm still learning the lore and how it effects each race), so any input would be nice. I liked the flavor of this for his backstory.

That being said, I don't think I will use the following maneuvers even though they are very effective and necessary: Raging Mongoose, Pouncing Charge, War Master's Charge etc. Pretty much, any maneuver that involves the character to play or act in a "leader" type role or unleash feral rage or animal acts, I've decided to leave out.

I've chosen maneuvers that better align thematically and conceptually with the character. In addition, I made choices that utilize the effects of Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit.

With your recommendations you've made above, I've decided on the following build:



ECL
IL
Maneuver Gained
Maneuver Lost
Stance


1
0
NA
NA
NA


2
1
NA
NA
NA


3
1
NA
NA
NA


4
2
NA
NA
NA


5
3
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM), Rabid Wolf Strike (TC), Sudden Leap (TC)

NA
Punishing (IH)


6
4
Leading the Attack (WR)
NA
NA


7
5
Moment of Perfect Mind (DM)
NA
NA


8
6
White Raven Tactics (WR)
Leading the Attack (WR)
Tactics of the Wolf (WR)


9
7
Wall of Blades (IH)
NA
NA


10
8
Iron Heart Surge (IH)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM)
NA


11
9
Pouncing Charge (TC)
NA
NA


12
10
Dancing Mongoose (TC)
Rabid Wolf Strike (TC)
NA


13
11
Moment of Alacrity (DM)
NA
NA


14
12
Flanking Maneuver (WR)
Pouncing Charge (TC)
Hearing the Air (DM)


15
13
Avalanche of Blades (WR)
NA
NA


16
14
Quicksilver Motion (DM)
Sudden Leap (TC)
NA


17
15
Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM)
NA
NA


18
16
White Raven Hammer (WR)
Flanking Maneuver (WR)
NA


19
17
Time Stands Still (DM)
NA
NA


20
18
Mountain Tombstone Strike (SD)
Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM)
Stance of Alacrity (DM)



It'd be nice if I could fit in Lightning Recover (IH) and/or Iron Heart Focus (IH) for more counters and the added synergy with Stance of Alacrity (DM), but I don't think it's possible.

I feel as though this progression better aligns with the backstory I've written for the character. Is it the most optimized? Most likely not... I'm probably gimping myself a lot with the build, but I feel as though it will do fine into the later levels. ECL 14 should still be fine - I can ready the following 5 maneuvers for combat: Dancing Mongoose (TC); Wall of Blades (IH); Iron Heart Surge (IH); White Raven Tactics (WR); and Sudden Leap (TC).

I know this somewhat new build goes against what we've discussed so far, but I think it'll still be fun. Also, as I work through different variations of the maneuver progression, I've realized that most of the maneuvers stay relatively the same up to ECL 14. I can always make changes as I go depending on how the character plays out and meshes with the party. This maneuver progression revolves less around "buffing" allies and focused more towards the character himself. He does tend to be more of a lone wolf in general.

Q.1. Am I totally gimping myself by trying to better align my character's maneuver progression to his backstory? Or, is it relatively solid? If not, I have no problem switching some stuff around.

[Darrin]

Q.1. Am I totally gimping myself by trying to better align my character's maneuver progression to his backstory? Or, is it relatively solid? If not, I have no problem switching some stuff around.

Your build is mostly Warblade, which means it's actually rather difficult to gimp yourself. In optimization circles, Warblades are generally considered to have a medium ceiling with a high floor. That means even when you don't optimize at all, they tend to perform extremely well. However, even when you pick the highest-rated maneuvers that everyone swears are the super-best, you never can tell which one will turn out to be useless in a particular fight or wind up saving your bacon.

[muskasurfer]

Your build is mostly Warblade, which means it's actually rather difficult to gimp yourself. In optimization circles, Warblades are generally considered to have a medium ceiling with a high floor. That means even when you don't optimize at all, they tend to perform extremely well. Even when you pick the highest-rated maneuvers that everyone swears are the super-best, you never can tell which one will turn out to be useless in a particular fight or wind up saving your bacon.

Hmm... Alright. That's good to know. I'll have fun and not over think all of it. Thank you for the peace of mind.

It's still nice choosing maneuvers that are at least useful and effective "most" of the time.

I guess I'm just curious if the newest maneuvers I've chosen work well and are effective together. I like that they fit with the theme of the character and synergize, I believe, with Stormguard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit.[/QUOTE]

[muskasurfer]

A bard? With maneuvers? I feel like I've been summoned.

I'll second the assessment of White Raven Hammer. This maneuver is amazing. Anything that's not immune to stunning is going to be devastated by it. With WRT and Tactics of the Wolf you only need one other White Raven maneuver to qualify for it, and there are several good choices... any of which you can still trade out for War Master's Charge later.

If you're short on Diamond Mind maneuvers for Time Stands Still, you should swap Punishing Stance out for a first-level Diamond Mind stance. It's not going to be a better choice than Tactics of the Wolf in most cases (since you want to be in a WR stance anyway for Song of the White Raven), and you qualify into IHS with Wall of Blades, both of which are fantastic on their own.

You should at least consider finding space for Iron Heart Focus. Getting to reroll any save is pretty outstanding. You've got a tremendous recovery mechanic, so it's not like you need to be loaded up with a ton of strikes; spare some space for defensive maneuvers too!

Hello!

I've added WRH into my newest edition of maneuver progression.

I need Punishing Stance for Iron Heart Aura which is the prerequisite for the Stormguard Warrior feat.

I did a "mini" revamp of the maneuver progression. I tried to fit in Iron Heart Focus and/or Lightning Recovery, but I'm not sure how to. I think if I completely remove the Tiger claw maneuvers (Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, and Dancing Mongoose), I'd be able to add in more defensive maneuvers i.e. IHF etc..

[Keld Denar]

Don't use a Greatsword, use an Axe!
http://tylorkranyak.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/battle_axe_guitar_by_monkeybro0.jpg

And I personally think that DFI isn't as good on an optimized Power Attacker as plain old IC. You are spending 3 feats on Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, and DFI. You also only have 4 BM uses per day (from 4 levels). If you are using BOTH DFI and IC, you are only good for about 2 combats without dropping a 4th feat on Extra Music. If you are just using one or the other, you get 4 combats per day, but you are still spending 3 feats.

IC is +1 to hit and +1 to damage. With Power Attack, this is basically +0 to hit and +3 damage (assuming you aren't PAing for your full BAB). DFI is +1d6 damage, or 3.5 per plus. That's an average of .5 damage per plus per hit, or about 2 damage for most of your bardic career. The damage from PA is pure, weapon-flavored damage. Against DR, that damage will USUALLY get through since it's in addition to your other base damage which is generally higher than the average DR of 10 or 15. DFI is subject to Energy Resistance on top of DR, although using is generally a powerful options (except vs Slaadi).

IC will generally be better for the Sorcerer, esp if he uses RTAs, and likely the whip guy. DFI will be better for the monk and probably the druid if he Multiattacks. The Factotum could go either way (or both, from day to day with Chameleon).

EDIT: It's kinda an honor to be referenced on this board still, despite the fact that I'm mostly inactive anymore. I mostly just lurk every few days but I'm hardly the regular I was 3-5 years ago. You guys make me feel special!

EDIT EDIT: Don't forget to put a Wand Chamber in your weapon with a Wand of [S]Gunblade Whirling Blade. Very potent since it scales with level automatically, and since its on your Bard list, you don't have to UMD it. I'd go with regular wand over eternal since 50 charges is a ton if you use 1ish average per battle, you'll probably be done with the game before you run out, or at the minimum, you can just buy another for 4500g which is pocket change at ECL 16 or so.

[muskasurfer]

Don't use a Greatsword, use an Axe!
And I personally think that DFI isn't as good on an optimized Power Attacker as plain old IC. You are spending 3 feats on Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage, and DFI. You also only have 4 BM uses per day (from 4 levels). If you are using BOTH DFI and IC, you are only good for about 2 combats without dropping a 4th feat on Extra Music. If you are just using one or the other, you get 4 combats per day, but you are still spending 3 feats.

IC is +1 to hit and +1 to damage. With Power Attack, this is basically +0 to hit and +3 damage (assuming you aren't PAing for your full BAB). DFI is +1d6 damage, or 3.5 per plus. That's an average of .5 damage per plus per hit, or about 2 damage for most of your bardic career. The damage from PA is pure, weapon-flavored damage. Against DR, that damage will USUALLY get through since it's in addition to your other base damage which is generally higher than the average DR of 10 or 15. DFI is subject to Energy Resistance on top of DR, although using is generally a powerful options (except vs Slaadi).

IC will generally be better for the Sorcerer, esp if he uses RTAs, and likely the whip guy. DFI will be better for the monk and probably the druid if he Multiattacks. The Factotum could go either way (or both, from day to day with Chameleon).

EDIT: It's kinda an honor to be referenced on this board still, despite the fact that I'm mostly inactive anymore. I mostly just lurk every few days but I'm hardly the regular I was 3-5 years ago. You guys make me feel special!

EDIT EDIT: Don't forget to put a Wand Chamber in your weapon with a Wand of [S]Gunblade Whirling Blade. Very potent since it scales with level automatically, and since its on your Bard list, you don't have to UMD it. I'd go with regular wand over eternal since 50 charges is a ton if you use 1ish average per battle, you'll probably be done with the game before you run out, or at the minimum, you can just buy another for 4500g which is pocket change at ECL 16 or so.

Right on! Keld, himself. Thank you for contributing to my post. I appreciate the advice. BTW, credit should always be due where it's deserved, so I thought it important to reference your post.

I never considered using an axe, but I do find the flavor of it more unique. I will substitute a Greataxe in place of a Greatsword. I'll start with a +3 Mithril Greataxe (what my DM allows for a weapon at ECL 14).

You're very right. My battle cleric (Ordained Champion etc.) was very optimized. Every feat, spell etc. was chosen to inch ever little strength out of the character, but I found it dull. I understand that it's 3 feats to receive the benefits of +#d6 sonic damage, but I enjoy the unique flavor and roleplay that comes with it. I've written the backstory in such a way to account for the dragon heritage, the invigorating lute playing (bardic) and overall elegant, disciplined prowess of the warblade. Sure, it uses 3 feats for only 4 uses per day, but heck... I don't always have to use it. I actually don't plan to; it'll keep combat more interesting. In regards to IC vs DFI, I can see the strengths for each. In your posts you even mention the idea of choosing between IC and/or DFI depending on the combat encounter. I plan to stay true to that. I'll use both or either one depending on which one will benefit the party (select members - specifically melee) the most.

Lastly, I will definitely look into adding a wand chamber to my weapon. It depends on what the DM rules. I haven't seen any member use a mod like that on their weapon. Also, our DM can be particular about what items/mods are "safe".

I may not be following your build 100%, but if you have any recommendations or input on the current maneuver progression (Post #8) I have set in place (in retrospect to my overall goal of the character i.e. backstory, flavor, etc.), I'd be eager to read it.

Thanks again!

[Keld Denar]

I guess maybe that wasn't the best picture, but if you look close, you can see the guitar frets on the "axe" guitar I posted. That combines your lute playing with some 2handed PAing.

The Wand Chamber is in Dungeonscape, so if you need to provide your DM with a page reference, that's where it is. It is 1st party material, not a Dragon Magazine, if that helps.

Your maneuver progression looks pretty good. I guess you'll be mostly full attacking (3 attacks per round, 4 with Haste, 5 with Dancing Mongoose + Haste). I do like some of the strikes like Disrupting Blow. Action denial is normally the hallmark of casters, but having that in your toolbox as a melee is fun and interesting.

Maybe for your weapon, instead of going the full +3, you look at a +1 XX YY weapon. ToB has the awesome maneuver keyed enhancement. If you plan to spend most of your time in Tactics of the Wolf, it might be worthwhile to get a +1 White Raven weapon which gives most +hit when in a WR stance. Another good +1 to consider is Spellstoring, esp since you have a drood in the party. Poison is 3rd level and awesome to put in Spellstoring. Otherwise something low level like Shocking Grasp from the sorc would give you some burst damage. Alternatively, you can have fun and annoy your DM with Wounding which does Con damage per hit for a +2 equiv. Not useful against EVERYTHING, but a great debuff against things that sets up a 1-2 punch with offensive spells from the drood or sorc.

I'm curious...why Mithril for your weapon? It's shiney, sure, but it doesn't have any other properties. Maybe Adamantine would be better?

[muskasurfer]

I guess maybe that wasn't the best picture, but if you look close, you can see the guitar frets on the "axe" guitar I posted. That combines your lute playing with some 2handed PAing.

Lol! I went back and looked at the picture. I definitely overlooked the guitar frets and strings when I first saw the picture. It's definitely a clever idea, haha! I will have to look into this.


The Wand Chamber is in Dungeonscape, so if you need to provide your DM with a page reference, that's where it is. It is 1st party material, not a Dragon Magazine, if that helps.

Thank you for providing the reference. This will be a big help when the DM and I meet up this upcoming week.


Your maneuver progression looks pretty good. I guess you'll be mostly full attacking (3 attacks per round, 4 with Haste, 5 with Dancing Mongoose + Haste). I do like some of the strikes like Disrupting Blow. Action denial is normally the hallmark of casters, but having that in your toolbox as a melee is fun and interesting.

I'm glad to read that I'm on the right track. I know I don't have some of the more optimized choices like Raging Mongoose, War Master's Charge, etc. They would be to out of place in regards to the main theme of the character. I will see if I can modify the maneuver progression to fit Disrupting Blow and/or other strikes similar to it. I'm not totally sold on the 4 Tiger Claw maneuvers: Rabid Wolf Strike, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, and Dancing Mongoose. I like that Dancing Mongoose and Sudden Leap make the character more optimized at ECL 14, but I'm not sure if they're worth it for the long-term goal. It's unfortunate that the other disciplines don't have a maneuver similar to Sudden Leap at the early levels. I know Pouncing Charge is excellent, but I don't like the lore text describing it. Quicksilver Motion seems to be the only one that functions like SL and PC, but it isn't available until the later levels.

If you have an alternative maneuver progression in mind, feel free to share it. I will see what I can do to include Disrupting Blow. In addition, it'd be neat if I could sneak in Lightning Recovery and/or Iron Heart Focus.

Q.1. Is replacing Moment of Perfect Mind with Diamond Defense worth it?


Maybe for your weapon, instead of going the full +3, you look at a +1 XX YY weapon. ToB has the awesome maneuver keyed enhancement. If you plan to spend most of your time in Tactics of the Wolf, it might be worthwhile to get a +1 White Raven weapon which gives most +hit when in a WR stance. Another good +1 to consider is Spellstoring, esp since you have a drood in the party. Poison is 3rd level and awesome to put in Spellstoring. Otherwise something low level like Shocking Grasp from the sorc would give you some burst damage. Alternatively, you can have fun and annoy your DM with Wounding which does Con damage per hit for a +2 equiv. Not useful against EVERYTHING, but a great debuff against things that sets up a 1-2 punch with offensive spells from the drood or sorc.

Thank you for the recommendations! I looked into the Martial Weapon Discipline enhancement, and I definitely like the idea of it. I will for sure be adding this enhancement to my weapon (Greataxe - even if it isn't a radical greataxe guitar/lute). Spellstoring and Wounding are both great recommendations as well. I like the idea and sound of a +1 White Raven Wounding Adamantine Greataxe.

Q.2. Do you know if I have to stay in the stance for the entire duration of Inspire Courage? Or, do I just have to be in the stance for the initial swift action casting of Inspire Courage?


I'm curious...why Mithril for your weapon? It's shiney, sure, but it doesn't have any other properties. Maybe Adamantine would be better?

I went back and looked at the Mithril properties for weapons. You're right... there really isn't perk to it. I thought the 1/2 weight property of Mithril was important, but I guess it isn't... I just figured it made sense for a warblade PC. That being said, Adamantine is most certainly the superior material for a weapon. The GM doesn't care what material I use, so I will go with the Adamantine.

Thank you again for another insightful post. I finally almost have this all narrowed in. There isn't much left to do until I meet with the DM to roll stats and all that fun stuff. I have the backstory, maneuvers, feats, items/gear etc. all sorted out.

Until next time!

[Darrin]

Q.1. Is replacing Moment of Perfect Mind with Diamond Defense worth it?


Concentration is likely to be much higher than your IL. Easier to buff Concentration, too: Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (MIC), githcraft armor (DMG2), Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt (MoI), etc. The advantage to Diamond Defense is it can be used on any save, not just Will. And at the level you get Diamond Defense, your Concentration bonus may be overkill compared to your IL. Then again, rolling 1 on a Concentration check isn't an autofail. So... maybe? Or if you'd prefer both, trade up MPM and then get a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind for 3000 GP.



Q.2. Do you know if I have to stay in the stance for the entire duration of Inspire Courage? Or, do I just have to be in the stance for the initial swift action casting of Inspire Courage?


You only need to be in a White Raven stance to activate Inspire Courage. Once you've got it activated, the feat doesn't care what stance you're in.



The GM doesn't care what material I use, so I will go with the Adamantine.


Use Starmetal (Complete Arcane) instead. Exactly the same properties as Adamantine, but also does 1d6 damage to outsiders and anything extraplanar.

[muskasurfer]

Concentration is likely to be much higher than your IL. Easier to buff Concentration, too: Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (MIC), githcraft armor (DMG2), Shape Soulmeld: Vitality Belt (MoI), etc. The advantage to Diamond Defense is it can be used on any save, not just Will. And at the level you get Diamond Defense, your Concentration bonus may be overkill compared to your IL. Then again, rolling 1 on a Concentration check isn't an autofail. So... maybe? Or if you'd prefer both, trade up MPM and then get a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind for 3000 GP.

You only need to be in a White Raven stance to activate Inspire Courage. Once you've got it activated, the feat doesn't care what stance you're in.

Use Starmetal (Complete Arcane) instead. Exactly the same properties as Adamantine, but also does 1d6 damage to outsiders and anything extraplanar.

Thank you for the responses to my questions! I like the idea of trading up MPM for Diamond Defense and getting a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind for MPM.

I will look into Starmetal, and it's good to know that I don't have to sit in a White Raven Stance for the duration of Inspire Courage.

[Keld Denar]

Your maneuvers look good. Really, there are very few "bad" maneuvers. You might look into how much you actually use things like IHS and possibly consider swapping it out as a readied maneuver after a session or two. IHS is pretty powerful if you are using it, but not terribly useful if your DM isn't using a lot of spells and effects against you that restrict your character. You can ready Flanking Maneuver or something like that in it's place. That's something you can tweak after starting the first couple games, however, or even day to day.

As far as Diamond Defense vs MoPM, it's pretty much an even tradeoff. DD applies to any save, which can be useful for really clutch saves even if they are your strong saves (like removing negative levels during downtime). MoPM is only good for will saves, but they will be your weak save which will need the most help anyway. Plus what was mentioned above about not autofailing on a 1, which is pretty nice when you have a great Concentration skill.

Ultimately, both are good. You'll likely encounter situations where either would be better than the other. You'll have to make a choice to use one or the other, or sacrifice something more offensive to have both. Just be careful about having all defensive maneuvers (MoPM, DD, WoB, IHS is 4 of 5 readied maneuvers for defense) which IMO is less fun than activating a strike and smiting some faces. I'd probably try to go with 2 defensive maneuvers, maybe 3 if you REALLY want, and the rest offensive. That way you don't have to refresh maneuvers every other round just to get your 1 offensive maneuver back. My opinion, in this case.

[muskasurfer]

Your maneuvers look good. Really, there are very few "bad" maneuvers. You might look into how much you actually use things like IHS and possibly consider swapping it out as a readied maneuver after a session or two. IHS is pretty powerful if you are using it, but not terribly useful if your DM isn't using a lot of spells and effects against you that restrict your character. You can ready Flanking Maneuver or something like that in it's place. That's something you can tweak after starting the first couple games, however, or even day to day.

Sounds good. I can't say for certain how useful IHS will be. We are currently in a dungeon with a lot of Undead (my cleric will be dearly missed :smallsmile:). Some of the minions include vampires, dread wraiths, zombies, homebrew enemies etc. All of the fights in the dungeon so far have varied from undead to evil monsters. That being said, since I am unfamiliar with IHS, I'm not sure how useful it will be. I know Moment of Perfect Mind and Wall of Blades will be useful against UD - Undead and their pesky touch attacks... If I find out IHS is not useful against UD, then I will most certainly ready a maneuver like Flanking Maneuver or something else in its place.


As far as Diamond Defense vs MoPM, it's pretty much an even tradeoff. DD applies to any save, which can be useful for really clutch saves even if they are your strong saves (like removing negative levels during downtime). MoPM is only good for will saves, but they will be your weak save which will need the most help anyway. Plus what was mentioned above about not autofailing on a 1, which is pretty nice when you have a great Concentration skill.

Ultimately, both are good. You'll likely encounter situations where either would be better than the other. You'll have to make a choice to use one or the other, or sacrifice something more offensive to have both. Just be careful about having all defensive maneuvers (MoPM, DD, WoB, IHS is 4 of 5 readied maneuvers for defense) which IMO is less fun than activating a strike and smiting some faces. I'd probably try to go with 2 defensive maneuvers, maybe 3 if you REALLY want, and the rest offensive. That way you don't have to refresh maneuvers every other round just to get your 1 offensive maneuver back. My opinion, in this case.

Ya, I can definitely see how DD and MoPM each have their own unique uses. If the DM allows for it, I already have a maneuver progression in order which accounts for MoPM and Wall of Blades being obtained from the unique Ring of Diamond Mind and Vest of Iron Heart items, respectively. Obtaining each of those maneuvers from the items allow for me to pick up Disrupting Blow like you recommended and Swooping Dragon Strike. I have to get rid of Quicksilver Motion, but it's easily replaced with a Belt of Battle which essentially does the same thing as the maneuver.

Excellent point about how many defensive and offensive maneuvers to ready. The 5 maneuvers I plan to prepare for my first encounter will include: Dancing Mongoose (TC), Disrupting Blow (DM), Wall of Blades (IH), White Raven Tactics for the other members (WR) and Iron Heart Surge (IH). And, if I find out I don't need IHS, I will switch it for Flanking Maneuver (WR) or something. I like the idea of preparing 2 defensive and 3 offensive maneuvers.


Below is the maneuver progression table which takes into account the Ring of Diamond Mind (Moment of Perfect Mind) and Vest of Iron Heart (Wall of Blades) items.


ECL
IL
Maneuver Gained
Maneuver Lost
Stance


1
0
NA
NA
NA


2
1
NA
NA
NA


3
1
NA
NA
NA


4
2
NA
NA
NA


5
3
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM), Rabid Wolf Strike (TC), Sudden Leap (TC)

NA
Punishing (IH)


6
4
Leading the Attack (WR)
NA
NA


7
5
Emerald Razor (DM)
NA
NA


8
6
White Raven Tactics (WR)
Leading the Attack (WR)
Tactics of the Wolf (WR)


9
7
Wall of Blades (IH)
NA
NA


10
8
Iron Heart Surge (IH)
Wall of Blades (IH)
NA


11
9
Disrupting Blade (DM)
NA
NA


12
10
Dancing Mongoose (TC)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM)
NA


13
11
Flanking Maneuver (WR)
NA
NA


14
12
Moment of Alacrity (DM)
Emerald Razor (DM)
Hearing the Air (DM)


15
13
Avalanche of Blades (WR)
NA
NA


16
14
Swooping Dragon Strike (TC)
Rabid Wolf Strike (TC)
NA


17
15
Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM)
NA
NA


18
16
White Raven Hammer (WR)
Disrupting Blow (DM)
NA


19
17
Time Stands Still (DM)
NA
NA


20
18
Mountain Tombstone Strike (SD)
Flanking Maneuver (WR)
Stance of Alacrity (DM)


Thank you for the help!

[Keld Denar]

You might want to sit down with your DM at some point and talk about IHS. As written, it does silly things (turns off the sun if you have light sensitivity) but doesn't do anything about common conditions that it was likely intended for, like Nausea, Paralysis, and Panicked. Go through all of the conditions in the back of the DMG and talk to your DM about whether IHS will work with each of them. I think I've posted a list in the past of things I personally think IHS should work on. I spoilered it below.

One thing it's likely good for you with no special adjudication is Negative Levels. Lots of undeaders play that game, and IHS can get rid of all of them quickly and easily with no need for a save unless you allow 24 hours to pass (which you shouldn't).

My houserules for IHS:
Conditions Iron Heart Surge can end:

Blinded
Confused (assuming an "act normally" roll)
Dazzled
Deafened
Dominated (ONLY in place of a second save, if applicable, see description)
Entangled
Fatigued
Frightened
Nauseated (takes whole round, due to normally denied standard action)
Panicked
Paralyzed (takes whole round)
Shaken
Sickened
Slowed
Various uncatagorized effects not covered at my discretion

Conditions Iron Heart Surge can NOT end:
Cowering
Dazed
Fascinated
Petrified
Stunned

I included Paralyzed since you still retain your mental faculties, but left out Stunned and Dazed, since they also prevent you from taking mental actions.

IHS can be used in place of the second save to end a Dominate effect, assuming the dominated character receives orders that would normally dictate a second save. IHS simply replaces that save with an auto-success.

IHS can end effects that normally deny you from taking a standard action or even moving. In such a situation, IHS is the ONLY thing you can do in that round, with the exception of a 5' step if applicable. No swift actions, no move actions, no other standard actions. I think its dumb that IHS can't end the Nauseated condition simply because of poor wording. This is my fix.

I'd assume this also includes spells with durations affecting the character that don't fall into one of the categories above.

[muskasurfer]

You might want to sit down with your DM at some point and talk about IHS. As written, it does silly things (turns off the sun if you have light sensitivity) but doesn't do anything about common conditions that it was likely intended for, like Nausea, Paralysis, and Panicked. Go through all of the conditions in the back of the DMG and talk to your DM about whether IHS will work with each of them. I think I've posted a list in the past of things I personally think IHS should work on. I spoilered it below.

One thing it's likely good for you with no special adjudication is Negative Levels. Lots of undeaders play that game, and IHS can get rid of all of them quickly and easily with no need for a save unless you allow 24 hours to pass (which you shouldn't).

My houserules for IHS:
Conditions Iron Heart Surge can end:

Blinded
Confused (assuming an "act normally" roll)
Dazzled
Deafened
Dominated (ONLY in place of a second save, if applicable, see description)
Entangled
Fatigued
Frightened
Nauseated (takes whole round, due to normally denied standard action)
Panicked
Paralyzed (takes whole round)
Shaken
Sickened
Slowed
Various uncatagorized effects not covered at my discretion

Conditions Iron Heart Surge can NOT end:
Cowering
Dazed
Fascinated
Petrified
Stunned

I included Paralyzed since you still retain your mental faculties, but left out Stunned and Dazed, since they also prevent you from taking mental actions.

IHS can be used in place of the second save to end a Dominate effect, assuming the dominated character receives orders that would normally dictate a second save. IHS simply replaces that save with an auto-success.

IHS can end effects that normally deny you from taking a standard action or even moving. In such a situation, IHS is the ONLY thing you can do in that round, with the exception of a 5' step if applicable. No swift actions, no move actions, no other standard actions. I think its dumb that IHS can't end the Nauseated condition simply because of poor wording. This is my fix.

I'd assume this also includes spells with durations affecting the character that don't fall into one of the categories above.

This is very useful! Thank you, Keld Denar. I appreciate it. I will print this out and discuss it with my DM.

[muskasurfer]

ECL 14 - Bard (4) / Warblade (10)

I rolled the following ability scores with the DM tonight: 18, 13, 13, 18, 10, 16

In addition, I have 3 level up skill points to allocate.

Q.1. How should I allocate the ability scores I rolled?

I allocated the rolled stats as such:
Str 18 (+2 from skill points) = 20
Con 13 (+1 from skill points) = 14
Dex 13
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 16

I need Int and Cha at +15 for Words of Creation (DM approved it but at the cost of only having a bardic music quota of 2 per day instead of 4 per day).

[Keld Denar]

Bardblade's need virtually no Cha or Int outside of Words of Creation. It might not be quite as strong as WoC, but consider Songs of the Heart from the ECS. It is "setting specific"in that it appears in a setting book, but doesn't really have any setting material dependent on it. It saves you from having to be a complete goody goody which any good rakish scoundrel will want to avoid. Plus, that extra penalty is almost too much. BM is kinda your schtich, and only 2/day combats is rough. 4/day is just about perfect.

I'd put one 18 in Str, and the other in Con. Then your 16s in Int and the 13s in Dex and Cha. Finally, keep the Wis at 10 and rely on either MoPM or Diamond Defense for most of your Will save needs. For level up bumps, probably bump Dex to 14 and then Str to 20. At 16, go Str again and then a final time at 20 for 22 base Str (28 with gear, a +8 damage mod x1.5 = +12 damage per hit).

Are you doing the Inspirational Boost spell or the Badge of Valor item? Inspirational Boost doesn't work with Song of the White Raven's swift start ability, since they both use a turn's swift action. Badge of Valor would still work, but would use the next round's swift action which could prevent you from using one of your counters or Raging Mongoose boost in the 2nd round of combat but both will increase the power of your IC by one each.

Have you put any thought to your starting gear other than your weapon yet? Don't forget your bread, eggs, and milk, as my buddy used to say. The staples. +Str, +Con, miss chance, possibly AC (depending on what armor you have as to if it's worth it). Then get some nice items like Anklets of Translocation, Healing Belts, and possibly something like a Heartseeking Amulet and other such items.

[muskasurfer]

Howdy!


Bardblade's need virtually no Cha or Int outside of Words of Creation. It might not be quite as strong as WoC, but consider Songs of the Heart from the ECS. It is "setting specific"in that it appears in a setting book, but doesn't really have any setting material dependent on it. It saves you from having to be a complete goody goody which any good rakish scoundrel will want to avoid. Plus, that extra penalty is almost too much. BM is kinda your schtich, and only 2/day combats is rough. 4/day is just about perfect.

I have Songs of the Heart as one of my feats.

Current Feats:

• Dragontouched
• Draconic Heritage (Battle - Force)
• Power Attack
• Dragonfire Inspiration
• Song of the White Raven
• Song of the Heart
• Iron Heart Aura
• Words of Creation
• Stormguard Warrior
• Combat Reflexes

Ya... It's disappointing the DM added the extra penalty to Words of Creation. He mentioned he'd eventually allow it to scale to max but wanted to see how effective it was in combat first. I could try talking to him again about it, but I'm not sure how it would go. Losing Words of Creation kind of botches the whole idea I had in mind for the build and backstory. I really like the idea of the bardblade, and I want this to work. If I get rid of the Words of Creation feat, at ECL 14 and with my other feats (including Inspirational Boost), Dragonfire Inspiration would be a 5d6. I guess it's still effective.

Q.1. If I do get rid of Words of Creation,what feat would I get in its place?


I'd put one 18 in Str, and the other in Con. Then your 16s in Int and the 13s in Dex and Cha. Finally, keep the Wis at 10 and rely on either MoPM or Diamond Defense for most of your Will save needs. For level up bumps, probably bump Dex to 14 and then Str to 20. At 16, go Str again and then a final time at 20 for 22 base Str (28 with gear, a +8 damage mod x1.5 = +12 damage per hit).

This is a great ability score allocation as long as I decide to drop Words of Creation.

I organized what you recommend into a crude table format:

Str: 18 --> (20 w/ extra stat points)
Dex: 13 --> (14 w/ extra stat point)
Con: 18
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 13

I'd then add the last 2 stat points into strength. Overall, I like the idea of this.

Q.2. If I end up keeping words of creation, where would you recommend I allocate the ability scores?

That being said, you seem fairly convinced I should scrap the idea of Words of Creation altogether.


Are you doing the Inspirational Boost spell or the Badge of Valor item? Inspirational Boost doesn't work with Song of the White Raven's swift start ability, since they both use a turn's swift action. Badge of Valor would still work, but would use the next round's swift action which could prevent you from using one of your counters or Raging Mongoose boost in the 2nd round of combat but both will increase the power of your IC by one each.
I do plan on casting Inspirational Boost. I also will have the Badge of Valor item. I understand that Inspirational Boost doesn't work with Song of the White Raven's swift start ability, but maybe I could just get a wand of inspiration boost and cast it as a standard action? I had a feeling Badge of Valor worked that way, but I didn't realize it may create such a problem. Shucks! I am not sure how to handle all of this now... It sounded like it all worked out fairly well. Also, I don't always have to cast Inspire Courage. I actually wasn't planning on using it all of the time.


Have you put any thought to your starting gear other than your weapon yet? Don't forget your bread, eggs, and milk, as my buddy used to say. The staples. +Str, +Con, miss chance, possibly AC (depending on what armor you have as to if it's worth it). Then get some nice items like Anklets of Translocation, Healing Belts, and possibly something like a Heartseeking Amulet and other such items.
I like that expression, "Don't forget your bread, eggs, and milk, as my buddy used to say." I have put thought into my starting gear.

Below is the starting gear I have in mind:

Head: Headband of +2 (Int, Wis or Cha)
Throat: Badge of Valor & +2 Con
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance (+3)
Body: +2 Mithril Breastplate of Blurring (Should this be light armor? I figured I will be fine wearing medium armor?)
Torso: Iron Heart Vest (Wall of Blades)
Hands: Gloves of Dexterity +2
Arms: Greatreach Bracers +2 Str
Belt: Healing Belt of Battle
Boots: Boots of Speed
Ring 1: Sustenance Ring of Protection +1
Ring 2: Ring of Diamond Mind (Moment of Perfect Mind)
Weapon: +2 Adamantine White Raven Great Axe

The DM pretty much agreed to all of it, he needs a final look over when the character comes into play. The underlined items are the ones I think are best in slot (for the most part, in regards to what I am going for etc.).

Q.3. What's your opinion of the gear choices?

Thank you again!

[Darrin]

Q.1. If I do get rid of Words of Creation,what feat would I get in its place?


Extra Music.



Q.2. If I end up keeping words of creation, where would you recommend I allocate the ability scores?

That being said, you seem fairly convinced I should scrap the idea of Words of Creation altogether.


I like Keld's suggestion.



I do plan on casting Inspirational Boost. I also will have the Badge of Valor item. I understand that Inspirational Boost doesn't work with Song of the White Raven's swift start ability, but maybe I could just get a wand of inspiration boost and cast it as a standard action?


As per the Rules Compendium, a wand of inspirational boost has the same casting time as casting the spell: swift action. Check with your DM if that's how he wants spell trigger items to work. My understanding is even with Song of the White Raven, you can still activate Inspire Courage the usual way, with a standard action, so that's what most bardblades do on the 1st round of combat: swift action to cast inspirational boost, then standard action to Inspire Courage.



Head: Headband of +2 (Int, Wis or Cha)


Consider adding that to a Helm of Tactics (2000 GP, MIC).



Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance (+3)


I'd probably start with a Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000 GP, MIC) or Travel Cloak (1200 GP, MoF) and add the resistance bonus on that.



Body: +2 Mithril Breastplate of Blurring (Should this be light armor? I figured I will be fine wearing medium armor?)


It's light armor, but I'd use Darkleaf (A&EG or Eberron Campaign Setting) instead as it's cheaper. Consider adding Githcraft (600 GP, DMGII) for +1 on Concentration checks.



Torso: Iron Heart Vest (Wall of Blades)


Ask if you can combine this with a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC) for the bonus on Concentration checks.



Hands: Gloves of Dexterity +2


Add the Dex bonus to Arcanist's Gloves (500 GP, MIC) or Gloves of the Starry Sky (1100 GP, MIC).



Arms: Greatreach Bracers +2 Str


Did you mean Strongarm Bracers? Greatreach are kinda meh. If you want reach, get a guisarme or duom.



Belt: Healing Belt of Battle
Boots: Boots of Speed
Ring 1: Sustenance Ring of Protection +1
Ring 2: Ring of Diamond Mind (Moment of Perfect Mind)
Weapon: +2 Adamantine White Raven Great Axe


No problem with the rest of this.



Q.3. What's your opinion of the gear choices?


Consult with Shax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)&p=8235865#post8235865).

[Gabrosin]

As per the Rules Compendium, a wand of inspirational boost has the same casting time as casting the spell: swift action. Check with your DM if that's how he wants spell trigger items to work. My understanding is even with Song of the White Raven, you can still activate Inspire Courage the usual way, with a standard action, so that's what most bardblades do on the 1st round of combat: swift action to cast inspirational boost, then standard action to Inspire Courage.

If you're not going to take advantage of Song of the White Raven, then it's a total waste of a feat. Better to not worry about the Inspirational Boost and accept a slightly smaller IC bonus. It's rare that the +1 to IC/DFI is going to outweigh the good you can do with your first combat action. There will be times where you have a full round to buff and get slightly stronger output, but usually when combat starts you're going to want to hit something sooner.

[Darrin]

If you're not going to take advantage of Song of the White Raven, then it's a total waste of a feat.

The other benefit to Song of the White Raven is all your Warblade and Crusader levels count towards determining your Inspire Courage bonus. This lets your IC bonus start at +3 or +4 before we get into all the other modifiers. Without the feat, IC is just +1 until you get up to Bard 8. The ability to activate it as a swift action is more like extra frosting on the cake.

Hmm... I was looking at maybe adding metamagic to inspirational boost to increase the casting time, but the rules aren't clear on what exactly this does to spontaneous swift-action spells. By RAW, it looks like the casting time stays the same. It's a [sonic] spell so it's eligible for Energy Substitution... also Invisible Spell {shudder}, but I try to avoid ever using that one.

However, here's a work-around to casting swift-action spells as a standard action: use the Mobile Spellcasting feat (Complete Adventurer) to cast + move. You still get a move action left over, too.

Another work-around: get a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC). Cast inspirational boost on a pouch or pocket where you keep ammunition or spell components. Reaching into the pocket is a free action, which triggers the spell.

[Gabrosin]

The other benefit to Song of the White Raven is all your Warblade and Crusader levels count towards determining your Inspire Courage bonus. This lets your IC bonus start at +3 or +4 before we get into all the other modifiers. Without the feat, IC is just +1 until you get up to Bard 8. The ability to activate it as a swift action is more like extra frosting on the cake.

Hmm... I was looking at maybe adding metamagic to inspirational boost to increase the casting time, but the rules aren't clear on what exactly this does to spontaneous swift-action spells. By RAW, it looks like the casting time stays the same. It's a [sonic] spell so it's eligible for Energy Substitution... also Invisible Spell {shudder}, but I try to avoid ever using that one.

However, here's a work-around to casting swift-action spells as a standard action: use the Mobile Spellcasting feat (Complete Adventurer) to cast + move. You still get a move action left over, too.

Another work-around: get a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC). Cast inspirational boost on a pouch or pocket where you keep ammunition or spell components. Reaching into the pocket is a free action, which triggers the spell.

Ah right, I forgot about the other part because I'm so used to progressing via Jade Phoenix Mage rather than taking the more martial path. I'll still stand by giving up Inspirational Boost in favor of keeping your first action in most cases.

[muskasurfer]

Extra Music.
I like Keld's suggestion.

Fair Enough. If I drop Words of Creation, I will be back to my 4 Bardic Music uses per day. If I replace Words of Creation with Extra Music, I would have a total of 8 Bardic Music uses a day. Not too shabby, but that many may be overkill. Our DM hasn't really thrown an encounter at us that takes longer than 5-6 rounds. In addition, I feel as though he doesn't track in-game time well. We usually only have like 1-3 encounters in a given in-game day before we rest and have all our abilities recovered. In other words, I feel as though 4 Bardic Music uses may be more than enough. Heck, the 2 bardic uses he is allowing with Words of Creation will probably be more than enough...


As per the Rules Compendium, a wand of inspirational boost has the same casting time as casting the spell: swift action. Check with your DM if that's how he wants spell trigger items to work. My understanding is even with Song of the White Raven, you can still activate Inspire Courage the usual way, with a standard action, so that's what most bardblades do on the 1st round of combat: swift action to cast inspirational boost, then standard action to Inspire Courage.
Ah... excellent point. I did not know that. Thank you for clarifying the action requirement for a wand. That being said, I think I would just standard action cast inspire courage and swift action cast inspirational boost.

Song of White Raven Feat Description:
The White Raven discipline shows you how to rouse dedication and fervor within your allies’ hearts. Such teachings can augment and improve your musical ability.
Prerequisite: Bardic music (inspire courage), one White Raven maneuver.
Benefit: While you are in any White Raven stance, you can activate your bardic music ability to inspire courage as a swift action. Your crusader and warblade levels stack with your bard levels to determine the bonus granted by your inspire courage ability.
Reference: http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29718870/Song%20of%20the%20White%20Raven
The feat mentions that "...you can activate your bardic music ability to inspire courage as a swift action...". I read that as I have the choice as to whether or not I want to cast inspire courage as a swift or standard action as long as I am in a White Raven Stance.

My first round would look like such:

Immediate: Badge of Valor
Free Action: ?
Swift Action: Inspirational Boost
Standard Action: Dragonfire Inspiration
Move Action: ?




Consider adding that to a Helm of Tactics (2000 GP, MIC).
I'd probably start with a Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000 GP, MIC) or Travel Cloak (1200 GP, MoF) and add the resistance bonus on that.
It's light armor, but I'd use Darkleaf (A&EG or Eberron Campaign Setting) instead as it's cheaper. Consider adding Githcraft (600 GP, DMGII) for +1 on Concentration checks.
Ask if you can combine this with a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC) for the bonus on Concentration checks.
Add the Dex bonus to Arcanist's Gloves (500 GP, MIC) or Gloves of the Starry Sky (1100 GP, MIC).
Did you mean Strongarm Bracers? Greatreach are kinda meh. If you want reach, get a guisarme or duom.

Consult with Shax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)&p=8235865#post8235865)

You definitely gave me some homework to do. I will look into all of these options. Thank you for the recommendations and Shax source.

Overall, great input. I am still on the fence about dropping Words of Creation because of what I shared above, but it does seem like the better idea to secure those extra 2 bardic music uses as well as the additional 4 from Extra Music.

That all being said, I am still curious as to the ability score allocation with Words of Creation as part of the build.

[muskasurfer]

Ah right, I forgot about the other part because I'm so used to progressing via Jade Phoenix Mage rather than taking the more martial path. I'll still stand by giving up Inspirational Boost in favor of keeping your first action in most cases.

Thank you for both of your posts. I was going to respond with the same information that Darrin shared.

I agree with you. It's nice to have that standard action available, but if I feel like using Inspirational boost, I can just spend my swift action to cast Inspirational Boost and my standard to cast Dragonfire Inspiration. I go into more detail on this in my recent previous post. I guess the idea is, I have choices. Choices are always nice!

[muskasurfer]

Hmm... I was looking at maybe adding metamagic to inspirational boost to increase the casting time, but the rules aren't clear on what exactly this does to spontaneous swift-action spells. By RAW, it looks like the casting time stays the same. It's a [sonic] spell so it's eligible for Energy Substitution... also Invisible Spell {shudder}, but I try to avoid ever using that one.

However, here's a work-around to casting swift-action spells as a standard action: use the Mobile Spellcasting feat (Complete Adventurer) to cast + move. You still get a move action left over, too.

Another work-around: get a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC). Cast inspirational boost on a pouch or pocket where you keep ammunition or spell components. Reaching into the pocket is a free action, which triggers the spell.
These are all great ideas! I think we are fine, though. In a couple posts above, I share the feat description of Song of the White Raven. It seems as though I have the choice of whether or not I want to cast Dragonfire Inspiration as a swift or standard action. If I find out I am wrong, I will look into these suggestions of yours, because they all sound like good alternatives.

[Darrin]

In other words, I feel as though 4 Bardic Music uses may be more than enough. Heck, the 2 bardic uses he is allowing with Words of Creation will probably be more than enough...


There are other things Bardic Music can be used with. Metamagic Song (Races of Stone) or Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) for example. Also, I think you can activate *normal* Inspire Courage right after you activate Dragonfire Inspiration, and they stack.



Thank you for clarifying the action requirement for a wand.


Well, be careful that you check with the DM on that. Some DMs will use the Rules Compendium, and some of them deliberately ignore it.



The feat mentions that "...you can activate your bardic music ability to inspire courage as a swift action...". I read that as I have the choice as to whether or not I want to cast inspire courage as a swift or standard action as long as I am in a White Raven Stance.


"Can" is not compulsory, so yes, you have the option to do either.



My first round would look like such:
Immediate: Badge of Valor
Free Action: ?
Swift Action: Inspirational Boost
Standard Action: Dragonfire Inspiration
Move Action: ?


Note: you'll want to make sure your Immediate Action is not taken during your turn, otherwise it counts as your swift action for that turn.

[Keld Denar]

A feat alternative to Words of Creation might be Melodic Casting from Complete Mage. You won't really have that many spells, but Melodic Casting also allows for the use of Spell Trigger items (ie Wands). That means you can use a Wand of Whirling Blade while maintaining your song.

Then again, you can just let your song end and bank on the 5 rounds of linger. Or take Lingering Song which gives you 10 rounds of linger once you stop performing.

Both ok options.

[muskasurfer]

There are other things Bardic Music can be used with. Metamagic Song (Races of Stone) or Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) for example. Also, I think you can activate *normal* Inspire Courage right after you activate Dragonfire Inspiration, and they stack.

Well, be careful that you check with the DM on that. Some DMs will use the Rules Compendium, and some of them deliberately ignore it.

"Can" is not compulsory, so yes, you have the option to do either.

Note: you'll want to make sure your Immediate Action is not taken during your turn, otherwise it counts as your swift action for that turn.

Ah... I remember reading about whether or not the two of them stack, but if you say they can, that's really cool! I'm not sure if my DM will allow it, but it's definitely good to know.

I will definitely check with my DM about his take on wands and the actions corresponding to them.

I'm glad to hear that I have the option to either or.

Shoot, another darn mechanic I thought I knew. I didn't realize you could only use one or the other (a swift or immediate action). That's news to me, and I believe will be news to the group. I think everyone has been ignoring that rule.


A feat alternative to Words of Creation might be Melodic Casting from Complete Mage. You won't really have that many spells, but Melodic Casting also allows for the use of Spell Trigger items (ie Wands). That means you can use a Wand of Whirling Blade while maintaining your song.

Then again, you can just let your song end and bank on the 5 rounds of linger. Or take Lingering Song which gives you 10 rounds of linger once you stop performing.

Both ok options.
More great ideas!

I meet with the DM on Sunday for our usual game day. We'll be solidifying and ironing out all the loose wrinkles with the character. I plan to talk to him once more about Words of Creation. I have made a new build with Words of Creation taken out. The new build uses a mix of both of your recommendations.

Q.1. If for some reason I convince the DM to lift the penalty he's implemented for Words of Creation, how might my attributes look (assuming I keep WoC as feat)? Would I keep them as I initially posted them? Or, should I switch some of them around?

Thank you both for the suggestions and help!

[Keld Denar]

The ability score order you originally posted to work with WoC is probably best with the scores you have. The only thing I really don't like about it is that your Con is 4 points lower than the build I posted. That, coupled with the damage that WoC deals to you for using it is gonna result in lower HPs, which can get you killed...to death.

I noticed that you also don't have +Con in your starting gear. I'd change this. Probably +2, but I'd suggest +4. Remember, Milk, Bread, Eggs. Staples like Str, Con, and +damage are important before any other fancy items. I'll see if I can go through your item list later tonight.

[Darrin]

In light of Keld's advice, I think I may need to revise my previous PM to you:

Str 18
Dex 13 (+1, 12th)
Con 18
Int 13 (+2, 4th and 8th)
Wis 10
Cha 16

You start out with plenty of skill points, so Int isn't all that important. You're not casting a whole bunch of bard spells, so Cha doesn't have to be all that high. If your Bardblade is wading into combat as a frontline meatbag, then Str and Con are going to be more important.

(Me personally, I'd probably put the second 18 in Dex, but that's just my personal preference.)

And on the gripping hand... any of these arrangements of ability scores should be perfectly functional. My impression is you don't want to overwhelm the DM with a hyper-optimized character, so if your build slightly underperforms because you have a +1 instead of a +2 somewhere, you'll still be fine. If the DM freaks out, it's probably not going to be over anything your character did directly, and much more likely over something like the archer and monk just did 48d6 sonic damage to his pet monster.

[muskasurfer]

Character Final Rough Draft

ECL 14 - Bard (4) / Warblade (10)

Primary Fighting Style: Two-Handed Weapon

Ability Scores:

Str 18 (+2, 16th and 20th)
Dex 18
Con 13 (+1, 12th)
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 13 (+2, 4th and 8th)

I swapped Darrin's recommended 15 in Int to Charisma. I only have 4 bard levels, so I will only be able to cast Bard level 2 spells. In addition, a 15 Cha modifier is the minimum to get me 1 bonus spell per day for 1st and 2nd level spells. Any more Charisma doesn't really do me any good. Furthermore, an Int of 16 is more useful since the Warblade's class feats benefit from it.

I like the idea of 18 into Dex, since one of the character's idiosyncrasies is to be agile and fluid-like.

I know that Constitution is only 14, but I picked up a +2 Con item to compensate for this. The character isn't necessarily the most durable.

The other stats speak for themselves, I think.

NOTE:Darrin and Keld Denar, thank you for the ability score allocation recommendations in regards to me holding on to Words of Creation. I really appreciate it. I was able to take what you both recommended and modify it in a way that still made sense and maybe worked a little better for what I am going for in general.

Feats:

• Dragontouched
• Draconic Heritage (Battle - Force)
• Power Attack
• Dragonfire Inspiration
• Song of the White Raven
• Song of the Heart
• Iron Heart Aura
• Words of Creation
• Stormguard Warrior
• Combat Reflexes

Class Features:

• Bardic Music
• Countersong
• Fascinate
• Inspire Courage +3
• Lore Song
• Inspire Competence
• Battle Clarity
• Weapon Aptitude
• Uncanny Dodge
• Battle Ardor
• Inspire Competence
• Improved Uncanny Dodge
• Battle cunning

Class Skills:
Available upon request. I pretty much chose what I felt rounded out the character and played into his overall theme. In addition, I grabbed Collector of Stories and Back on your Feet.

Spells:

Level 0 (3 Known) - Thrice per day
• Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sounds, Light, Prestidigitation, Songbird
Level 1 (3 Known) - Thrice per day
• Inspirational Boost, Silent Image, Grease
Level 2 (2 Known) - Once per day (Cha boost)
• Bladeweave, Dimension Leap


Again, I chose what spells I felt fit the character. I wasn't necessarily going for the "best".

Maneuvers and Stances:


ECL
IL
Maneuver Gained
Maneuver Lost
Stance


1
0
NA
NA
NA


2
1
NA
NA
NA


3
1
NA
NA
NA


4
2
NA
NA
NA


5
3
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM), Rabid Wolf Strike (TC), Sudden Leap (TC)

NA
Punishing (IH)


6
4
Leading the Attack (WR)
NA
NA


7
5
Iron Heart Surge (IH)
NA
NA


8
6
White Raven Tactics (WR)
Leading the Attack (WR)
Tactics of the Wolf (WR)


9
7
Emerald Razor (DM)
NA
NA


10
8
Death from Above (TC)
Rabid Wolf Strike (TC)
NA


11
9
Pouncing Charge (TC)
NA
NA


12
10
Dancing Mongoose (TC)
Death from Above (TC)
NA


13
11
Flanking Maneuver (WR)
NA
NA


14
12
Disrupting Blow (DM)
Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM)
Hearing the Air (DM)


15
13
Avalanche of Blades (WR)
NA
NA


16
14
Quicksilver Motion (DM)
Emerald Razor (DM)
NA


17
15
Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM)
NA
NA


18
16
Raging Mongoose (TC)
Dancing Mongoose (TC)
NA


19
17
Time Stands Still (DM)
NA
NA


20
18
White Raven Hammer (WR)
Avalanche of Blades (DM) or Disrupting Blow (DM)
Stance of Alacrity (DM)


Ring of Diamond Mind (Moment of Perfect Mind)
Vest of Iron Heart (Wall of Blades)

First, after rolling my stats and assigning them, I decided that I will go ahead and keep Pouncing Charge and Raging Mongoose even if they may not exactly line up with the character's theme. When I saw that Wisdom was going to be my dump stat, I knew that Tiger Claw maneuvers would fit right in. I am going to roleplay the Wisdom score of 10 as the character having a great lack of impulse control. In other words, my character will think of something to do and will do it. That's where Pouncing Charge and Raging Mongoose kind of fit in since they are more "wild" abilities that go along with the lack of impulse control idea.

Second, most of the maneuvers range from solid counters like MoPM and WoB to mobility counters like Pouncing Charge and Quicksilver Motion and finally to maneuvers that all synergize with each or with Storm Guard Warrior and Robilar's Gambit (I pick this up at ECL 15 - I also get Avalanche of Blades at this point too).

Third, I didn't pick up any of the White Raven maneuvers that had to do with "leadership", since they don't really agree with the character's story or a Wisdom of 10.

Fourth, it'd be nice if I could fit in Lightning Recovery (IH) for Avalanche of Blades (maybe I can pick up another Iron Heart Vest). In addition, it'd be cool if I could fit in Diamond Defense. Then again, I can always pick up a Ring of Diamond Mind later on to cover that maneuver.

Fifth, I think everything flows smoothly except for White Raven Hammer being picked up at ECL 20.

Lastly, the five maneuvers I plan to ready for combat at ECL 14 are: Disrupting Blow (DM), Dancing Mongoose (TC), Pouncing Charge (TC) for Offense; and a mixture between WRT, IHS, MoPM, and Wall of Blades for Defense.

Starting equipment (ECL 14):

Head: Helm of Tactics +2 (Int)
Throat: Badge of Valor w/ (+2) Con
Shoulders: Travel Cloak of Resistance (+3) - I like this for flavor, the character has done a lot of traveling
Body: +2 Mithril Githcraft Breastplate of Blurring - DM was a no go for the other recommended material.
Torso: Iron Heart Vest (Wall of Blades) - Will upgrade to Tunic of Steady Spellcasting later
Hands: Gloves of the Starry Sky (+2) Dex
Arms: Strongarm Bracers (+2) Strength
Belt: Healing Belt of Battle
Boots: Boots of Speed
Ring 1: Sustenance Ring of Protection +1
Ring 2: Ring of Diamond Mind (Moment of Perfect Mind)
Weapon: +2 Adamantine White Raven Great Axe

I think that about covers all of it. At least this is what I have in writing on a final rough draft character sheet.

Again, everyone that has responded to this post has been an enormous help! Special thanks goes out to Darrin and Keld Denar.

Q.1. What are some final opinions? Any last words?