Save DCs: how high they should be compared to level, and how to get them that high

[Jowgen]

I recall quite a few threads about how high AC, damage per round, and such things need/should to be to be useful at each given level; but I don't recall ever seeing anything like this for (spell) save DCs.

Now, of course it's best to play with a no-save attitude, and boosting saves and collecting immunities is relatively simple. Still, provided one did want to use spells and other effects that allow saves, to what heights should one boost those DCs to ensure level-appropriate effectiveness? As a minor side-question, what are some good ways to accomplish said boosting.

I am not looking to design a character or monster or anything, I'm really just curious. :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Never high enough, it feels like. D:

EDIT: Now that I think of it, I remember seeing a charts of average saves per level of monsters in a basic optimization guide... maybe this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9556126&postcount=5)

[daremetoidareyo]

Assume that the standard save DC is based on the character level of a full caster with an 18 in their casting stat. At level 8 they have a 20. At level 16 , they have a 22.

By pinning the DC to a naked full caster you can measure an optimized concept against the floor of an unoptimized caster. This allows you to see what you 've traded away and account for what you gain when you optimize.

The naked 50 standard


Level
DC


1
15


2
15


3
16


4
16


5
17


6
17


7
18


8
19


9
20


10
20


11
21


12
21


13
22


14
22


15
23


16
24


17
25


18
25


19
25


20
25


As you can see, this optimization theory has some weakspots. It caps out at 25 during a time where enemies, Bbeg type enemies , can have +15 to saves.

Also, not every caster between levels 1-5 have a casting stat that high. So we could eye ball it downward. With this table your CR appropriate enemies have a 50/50 chance on any save. You probably want +5 to +10 to that to lift your dc between 75%-95% effective.

If we use vow of poverty as a baseline for additional typical expected stat bonuses. The dc increases by one on the naked 50 table at 7th level, 11, 15, and19th level.

This accounts for expected gear that lifts your casting stat. So if optimization of your concept matches the stat gear 55% DC or better, you are as good a caster as a generally brilliant non-specialized caster.

This rough guide should allow you to judge if you are up to snuff with the generally brilliant. If you want optimization level omega, get into the 75%-95% DCs failed by enemies of appropriate CR. Which means DC 20 at level 1 and DC 40 by level 20.

[Korahir]

There are charts with average saves by CR. This charts are always used to show people the value of a Dazing Fireball (Pathfinder) in a high level game, as Reflex usually is the worst save by miles.
Generally speaking: CR+20 seems a legit formula for excellent DCs. Basically you can take the AC recommandations subtract 5 and that should work just fine.

[daremetoidareyo]

Generally speaking: CR+20 seems a legit formula for excellent DCs. Basically you can take the AC recommandations subtract 5 and that should work just fine.


Which means DC 20 at level 1 and DC 40 by level 20.

Basically the same advice.