PDA

View Full Version : Index The Index of the Giant's Comments V―On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:04 AM
The Index of the Giant's Comments V
Version 5.13

with thanks to Xapi, B.Dandelion, ChristianSt, & theangelJean
and to Jesse Baruffi and David Lawrence of Geekademia
and special thanks to Rich Burlew and ThePhantasm



Wow, you guys find the weirdest things to argue about.


How to Contribute: Suggest new quotes to be included! Read the guidelines first. Then, when suggesting a new quote, also mention the number of the current comic if possible, as well as a brief summary of what it says. The more helpful information you give, the easier the Index can be updated.


The Index provides easy access to direct statements about the Order of the Stick comic from its author, for the purpose of forum discussion. It is intended as a research aid; its entertainment value as a trivia collection is incidental.These rules were decided by forum vote. They specify what sorts of comments are suitable for inclusion in the Index and what sorts are not. This thread is run by its caretaker in accordance with forumgoer consensus.

Rule A: The quote or comment must still be accessible online.

1) | This includes the use of The Internet Wayback Machine and other methods of accessing comments that may not still exist in the archive.

2) | This does not include second-hand sources, like "I remember Rich said this, but the thread does not exist anymore." Even if you are 100% certain Rich said that, if the quote is not demonstrable or provable it cannot be included.

3) | This does not include Rich's commentary in books or in any medium that cannot be legally accessed for free.

Rule B: The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.

1) | This excludes non-comic-related opinions, statements, etc. from Rich. So if he says "I like Italian food" or something like that, it is not to be included.

2) | This may include information related to the comic, like Rich's views on Dungeons and Dragons, book publishing, art design, etc. . . so long as these quotes are still within the sphere of comic-related discussion. Uncertainty should be decided by thread poster consensus.

3) | This excludes GiTP forum rules, updates, or general information. That is for the admins and mods to publicize and spread word about, not this index.

Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading. (rescinded as rule on 12/16/2014)

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions. (reference to rescinded rule removed on 12/16/2014)

Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Rule F: The index-keeper (Jasdoif) has the job of updating the index in keeping with thread-goer consensus.

1) | He/She may reorganize the index if deemed necessary, though all reorganizations can be reversed by majority vote.

2) | He/She may immediately add a comment to the index without any vote, discussion, or consensus required if the comment obviously is in accordance with these agreed rules.

3) | He/She may never fully "reject" a comment's inclusion, however, he/she may postpone its inclusion until further discussion (and, if the divide in opinion appears even, a vote) decides the matter.

4) | If a comment's inclusion is uncertain, a vote requires a clear majority. If there is a tie the comment will not be included. The majority must have at least 2 more votes than the minority. Remember, the purpose of the discussions and votes are to reach some measure of consensus, not division.

Rule G: Transcripts of Q&As with Rich Burlew may be included, in their entirety, in additional posts to the Index. Rule A applies as normal, but all other Rules may be varied contingent on community acceptance. Quotes can be added to the Index proper from the Q&As. This is not considered redundancy for the purposes of Rule E.

Rule H: To reduce how many posts in the thread are consumed by votes instead of discussion, normal changes to the Index are done in groups of quotes.

1) | General Update Procedure Each update cycle happens when there are six quotes queued for addition/removal, or when it has been two months since the last update cycle.
For a quote to be queued for an update requires community support. Additions have more leniency on being queued than removals; and additions with strong community support are exempt from potential votes during the update, while removals are always voted on.
When an impending update is announced by the curator, and prior to the update being done, people can PM the curator requesting a vote on the quote(s) to added (unless the earlier discussion strongly favored addition, as mentioned above). Two separate posters must request a vote on a quote for it to occur, otherwise the quote will be included. This step is done to ensure active opposition to including the quote is still present.
If a vote is necessary for any additions, the curator will call for voting on those additions. Discussion, beyond reiterating personal reasons for voting alongside the vote, is discouraged while the vote is going on. Addition must "win" a majority by at least 2 votes for to the quote to be added.
If any quotes are queued for removal, the curator will call for voting on those removals, separately from any voting for additions. Removal must "win" a majority by at least 2 votes for to the quote to be removed.

2) | Special Update Cases
If the curator finds a quote to be clearly aligned with the agreed-upon thread rules, the quote may be immediately added to the update queue. When the update cycle happens, the quote is still held to usual procedure with regards to possible votes on additions.
If the curator finds an already-present quote to be unequivocally violating the agreed-upon thread rules, most likely if the cited quote ceases being available online, the quote may be removed immediately without regard to the update cycle.


The inclusion procedure below was proposed and adopted in a more informal fashion than the rules above, but still represents how this community project is expected to be run with regards to including new quotes.

Participating doesn't require an understanding of this procedure: we discuss the merits of quotes after they're proposed in the usual forum fashion, and the curator will call for nominations or votes at the appropriate time.

But for those interested in the details:

Quotes with a clear consensus to include or exclude after discussion will be included in or excluded from the next update, as appropriate.
Quotes the curator deems clearly aligned with the inclusion guidelines will default to be included in the next update without needing extended discussion, but may be voted upon at the time of the update (see below).
Quotes without a clear consensus to include/exclude after discussion will default to be included in the next update, but may be voted upon at the time of the update (see below).
Updates will happen when there are six quotes ready to be included or if it has been two months since the last update.
When an impending update is announced by the curator, and prior to the update being done, people can PM the curator requesting a vote on the particular "default" inclusion quote(s) (the quotes with strong consensus to include do not need to be voted on). Two separate posters must request a vote on a quote for it to occur, otherwise the quote will be included.
If a vote is necessary, the curator will call for voting on all quotes set to be voted upon. Discussion, beyond reiterating personal reasons for voting alongside the vote, is discouraged while the vote is going on. Per thread rules, to be included a quote must "win" a majority by at least 2 votes.
Only votes called for by the curator are binding.


FIRST POST

Latest Updates
Alignment

General Information
D&D Alignment
Specific Characters

Evil Characters
Good Characters
Neutral Characters


Art

General
Drawing
Art & Magic
Art & Merchandise

D&D Rules and Explanations

Accuracy
Characters: Items and Stats

Order of the Stick
Other Characters/Creatures

Combat Scenes

Story, Plot, and Characters

General Information
Vampirism
The Gates and their History
Familicide
Calendars, Dates, Maps
Culture, Religion and the Afterlife
Reading Too Much Into It


SECOND POST

Character Development and Backstory

The Order of the Stick
Vector Legion
Other Characters

Writing

Storytelling Mistakes?
Plot Holes
Writing Process
Tools and Logistics
Forum and Reader Reactions
References and Influences
Story Development
Reflections from the Author
Real World Intent
Character Naming
The Story as a D&D Spoof

Supporting the Strip


Spoilers from Book/PDF Content

Start of Darkness


Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails


How the Paladin Got His Scar


Kickstarter Bonus PDFs



Thread History







Latest Updates

🍌On Changing Font Style
The failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same, hence the change from "Comic Sans" to "Wildwords Lowercase".
#936
2014/01/04







General Information

The Morality of Deception
"Taking advantage of someone is neither Good nor Evil, inherently. What matters is what you take advantage of them for."
#981
2015/04/28


"Lovable" Does Not Mean "Not Evil"
Case in point, Thog.
#936
2014/01/11


Genocide is Always Evil
See also here.
#935
2013/12/24


Alignment and Authorial Intent
What does Rich mean when he says X character is Y alignment?
#903
2013/07/23


Elan and Nale's Parentage
How did it affect their alignment? Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good.
#815
2011/11/18


Alignment and Environment
Enor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.
#812
2011/10/25





D&D Alignment

Usefulness of the alignment system in D&D games
A great aid for teaching new inexperienced players how to roleplay.
#921
2013/09/29


"Lawful" vs "Legal"
More here and here.
#891
2013/06/03


D&D's Alignment System
Thoughts on how it could be improved.
#838
2012/02/18


About Lawful Alignments
On being Lawful in D&D and the OOTS.
#281
2006/02/15





Specific Characters
Evil Characters

Everyone on Tarquin's Team is Evil
And Tarquin is kind of like the Elan of their team. See also: here.
#934
2013/12/08


Redcloak is Evil
#830
2012/01/23


Tarquin is Lawful Evil
#763
2010/12/07


Belkar is Chaotic Evil
#251
2005/12/01


Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil
#142
2005/01/20


Good Characters

Haley is Chaotic Good
#936
2014/01/12


Elan is (Still) Chaotic Good
Elan let Tarquin fall because he was using a different interpretation of Chaotic Good.
#936
2014/01/11


Shojo's Chaotic Government
Shojo's Chaotic government was still good, not evil.
#891
2013/06/06


Durkon is Lawful Good
#798
2011/07/27


Neutral Characters

Girard is Chaotic Neutral
#980
2015/04/25


Who Else is Neutral
A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here.
#903
2013/07/22


Enor & Gannji are True Neutral
#812
2011/10/24


V is True Neutral (and Always Was)
"Vaarsuvius was never Neutral Good"; strip #11 does not suggest otherwise.
#801
2011/08/17









General

"How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style
As everything going forward will be, unless it's meant to be inserted in the middle of older art. Also, How the Paladin Got His Scar is in grayscale instead of bluescale, because the color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.
#1042
2016/07/03


Why Some Wounds are Black
"I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines."
#1005
2015/09/15


The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently
Also, the thought processes behind #443, #750 and #887; and some favorite strips.
#980
2015/04/27


What Bothers the Giant about Early Strips' Art
Tangents, wriggly lines, exterior shots...but not the stick figure style, and full redraws are unlikely.
#980
2015/04/24


Art Colors can Change
Whether because the Giant doesn't like the old color, or because his system doesn't.
#942
2014/01/28


🍌On Changing Font Style
The failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same, hence the change from "Comic Sans" to "Wildwords Lowercase".
#936
2014/01/04


Light and Art
The art style doesn't show lighting and shading, much like how it doesn't show noses.
#871
2013/02/26


Speech Bubbles
Don't overthink them...they are subservient to the story. Malack's bubbles are only black when he "vamps out."
#870
2013/02/18


True Subjective View In 843
V gets cornered.
#843
2012/03/07


Why the Strip Titles Aren't Above the Strip
The titles are "bonus" jokes. Rich prefers not to put them above the strip itself.
#759
2010/11/20


Character Appearances & Forum Speculation
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. For example, just because two persons have similar hairstyles doesn't mean they are related.
#683
2009/10/06


Why Book Corrections Don't Get to the Online Strip
Undoing the differences between online and book versions of strips would be inefficient.
#665
2009/06/25





Drawing

Comic Panels are Often Drawn Out of Order
"...based on what I feel like doing first or last, whether that's due to mood or difficulty or what have you."
#1166
2019/06/07


Redcloak Getting Footwear
In the new art style, doing three toes with the skin tone "looked weak and unthreatening....So starting now, armored goblin-types get nice heavy boots instead."
#1013
2015/11/24


On Growing Art Complexity
"It's what I needed to keep going after 11 years of the same story by way of challenging myself, while still trying to stay within the initial parameters of the comic's signature look."
#980
2015/04/20


The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/456760564862418944)
Also, the font is larger because the online comic page is larger.
#949
2014/04/17


The Scenery is Harder to Draw Than the Characters (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/456781931171307521)
Also, the new hands don't take longer to draw.
#949
2014/04/17


How the Giant Writes and Draws the Strips
And an answer to the question - why are certain strips several pages long?
#896
2013/06/28


Examples of Rich's Non-Stick-Figure Art Talent
Rich's mad art skills on showcase. Also more here.
#848
2012/04/11





Art & Magic

Meld Into Stone
Art trumps rules accuracy here in order to show the warping of the spell effect.
#859
2012/07/26


Counterspelling
The Giant doesn't use different art to differentiate between counterspelling with Dispel Magic and counterspelling with the same spell.
#830
2012/01/23


Spell Colors
The colors come from the spellcaster's choice or personality, and not their alignment or the types of magic.
#731
2010/06/28


Invisibility
Why the art for invisible characters isn't consistent (utility trumps consistency).
#706
2010/03/15





Art & Merchandise

Characters and Merchandise
The presence, absence, position, or style of any character on any piece of merchandise has no bearing on any future (or past) plot points.
#816
2011/11/22


Black and White Books
They are unlikely to ever be colorized, and were not originally in color. Rich drew them in black and white.
#781
2011/03/16


The Oracle's Location on the OOTS Poster
Don't read too much into it.
#744
2010/09/05








Accuracy

Armies and High level characters in D&D
"The idea that you can walk into any tavern and 2-5 adventurers of high level will be there is literally a joke."
#919
2013/09/18


Evolution of D&D Adherence
The Giant hasn't made explicit statements about feats/items since 2008, OOTS' internal consistency is still maintained, and the Giant has no regrets about using D&D in OOTS.
#886
2013/05/09


On the (Un)importance of Calling Out Rules
"I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible."
#808
2011/10/06


Game Balance Doesn't Matter in This Story
"I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception."
#806
2011/09/20


Only SRD (Core) Spells are Common Knowledge
"...and everything else is 'obscure/non-existent' unless someone has researched it."
#806
2011/09/19


Rules Accuracy In The Comic
"If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading." For instance, Rich avoids the D&D term "calling" for the sake of non-D&D OOTS readers, who probably would not understand its meaning.
#801
2011/08/17





Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick

Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)
Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".
#1020
2016/01/22


Vaarsuvius, Spiked Tentacles and Conjuration
Vaarsuvius has never been able to cast Conjuration spells, including Evan's Spiked Tentacles. Just assume Vaarsuvius was casting Shadow Conjuration instead.
#980
2015/04/23


Why V Doesn't Have a Staff
There is no narrative purpose for it, and it would just be one more item to keep track of in the art.
#878
2013/03/03


Durkon's Mass Death Ward
Rich did not even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.
#806
2011/09/19


Elan's Rapiers
He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
#723
2010/05/13


OOTS' Stats
Rich hasn't written them down, and everything is up in the air until they need a specific ability.
#714
2010/04/10


A Piece of Straw
Haley used a piece of straw to get out of the jail cell. Info on Haley's Dexterity, Level, etc.
#262
2006/01/03


The Giant on Stats in Earlier Strips
Elan singing about skill points, Haley having Rapid Shot and Manyshot, Roy and Vaarsuvius' mental ability scores, verbal components in OOTS, and insight about Vaarsuvius' spellcasting.
#180
2005/05/14


Elan and Nale are Twins
So Nale has the same Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as Elan.
#65
2004/05/03


Other Characters/Creatures

Babies shouldn't be statted
The inclusion of combat stats for newborns encourages combat with newborns, which shouldn't happen. See also Rich's proposed alternative "stats", here and here.
#922
2013/10/04


Malack's Grapple Skills
Malack's grapple skills were a hunting aid, not for optimization/combat. A character's skills have to be looked at in the context of their whole life, not "what I would do in a game."
#906
2013/07/30


Girard's Illusion Runes
They are a ninth-level spell, not an epic spell.
#893
2013/06/11


The Keoghtum's Ointment
The Keoghtum's Ointment removes deafness because it is extra strength.
#863
2012/09/12


Tarquin Doesn't Have Trap Sense
"I don't usually bother making fun of mechanics anymore, but if I do, I'm not that subtle about it."
#858
2012/07/23


Malack's Undead
Malack reanimates the dead Draketooths into mummies.
#856
2012/06/20


The Crimson Mantle
Generally it is not known by non-goblins that the mantle is the source of power.
#826
2012/01/12


Tsukiko Breaks The Rules
Tsukiko has too many schools. Rich doesn't make character decisions based on common player trends.
#800
2011/08/14


Acid-Born Shark
Rich created it, and made fun of himself in the comic.
#785
2011/04/06






Combat Scenes

Aarindarius Effortlessly Defeating the ABD?
Hyperbole in the illustration, though Vaarsuvius thought it plausible for Aarindarius to assist.
#980
2015/04/25


Xykon vs Dorukan
There would be no dramatic function to drawing out the fight. "If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative."
#960
2014/08/18


Realistic Injuries?
Unbelievable things will happen in a crazy fantasy story.
#930
2013/11/13


Disintegrate is useful
#918
2013/09/12


Malack and Mass Death Ward
Why did Malack bother checking if Durkon protected himself when he could simply dispel the spell and not care at all?
#876
2013/03/02


Battle Scenes and D&D Tactics
"My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you."
#873
2013/02/28


Roy's Arena Fight With Thog
Roy's strategy to taunt a dungeon-crashing Thog into breaking the pillars.
#808
2011/10/06


Zz'dtri's Break Enchantment
Rich didn't read the casting time while making the strip.
#804
2011/09/07


Miko's Fight
How Miko defeated the OOTS off-panel and captured them.
#251
2005/11/30








General Information

Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
#969
2014/12/01


There will be seven books (from the main online comic)
#910
2013/08/15


Dragon Continuity
The Dragon Magazine strips and Gygax magazine strips exist in a separate continuity from the OOTS strips.
#863
2012/11/25


Some Thoughts on Visuals and Story
People get invested in the story, not the art, of a comic.
#838
2012/02/18


More Prequels?
The total number of planned prequel stories is "pretty much fixed"; at least one more as of 09/16/2015.
#804
2011/09/01


Not everything needs a backstory
Not everything needs a backstory, or even has an interesting one worth telling.
#729
2010/06/23





Vampirism

Coffin-less Vampires Immediately Turn to Dust When "Killed"
#1131
2018/07/31


Why Most Vampires Don't Get Overwhelmed by Their Host's Memories
And why HPoH ( https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png ) did.
#1130
2018/07/28


The Nature of Vampirism (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963524080484933632)
"...a negative energy consciousness created in the shape of your own worst impulses, stuffed into your dead body to animate it."
#1112
2018/02/13


HPoH ( https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png ) Didn't Exist Before Durkon Was Vampirized (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056)
Though he arrived "with certain knowledge, like language and whatever Hel told it to do as she was shoving it in there."
#1112
2018/02/13


Durkon Can't Show HPoH ( https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png ) Fake Memories
#1009
2015/10/19


Malack Chose to Worship Nergal
And "shaman" is a descriptive term, not a non-cleric class.
#949
2014/04/19


There is Only One Way that Vampirism Works
And nothing that happens with vampires can be assumed to work for other undead. Also, knowledge of how vampirization works is rare, even among clerics.
#949
2014/04/18


Vampires Have Free Will
#949
2014/04/18





The Gates and their History

About Girard's Double Bluff
About Girard's double bluff to protect the Gate.
#895
2013/06/21


Soon's Castle
Soon built the castle, but did not build Azure City.
#804
2011/09/01


Soon's Gem and Gate
Details about Soon's rift and how it is protected. The gate/rift could not be moved. You can shift a gate to another plane, but not another place on this plane.
#801
2011/08/21





Familicide

Familicide
How Familicide works. More here.
#879
2012/03/07





Calendars, Dates, Maps

Death of Old Age in OOTS
"Eugene literally died of old age. When a person reaches a certain age, the gods roll dice to see what his or her maximum lifespan is going to be, and when the person hits 12:01 on that birthday, they keel over dead from no apparent cause."
#933
2013/12/06


Map of the Western Continent
It is constantly changing.
#746
2010/09/12


OOTS Age Range
Intended to be early to mid 20s. Durkon is the "dwarf equivalent" of this age range, in his 50s.
#732
2010/07/02


Chronology & Timeline
Anything that states a numbered, dated year references the Northern calendar. The Oracle uses the Southern calendar. Further details on timeframe of Belkar's death prophecy included. Some time references in the strip (like the deva's chart) should not be taken too literally.
#725
2010/05/26





Culture, Religion and the Afterlife

On Dwarves, Death, and Dishonor
Dwarves know they go to Hel if they die dishonorably, and their culture takes this into account: All dwarves learn how to fight, and consistently living honorably is a solution, even if they die in a normally nonviolent role.
#1004
2015/09/15


The Afterlife Isn't Important to OOTS
It's only important that the characters find living preferable to it.
#998
2015/08/17


Spiritual Progress in the Afterlife
The afterlife leads down a path of "letting go" of life, including an inability to learn new things.
#998
2015/08/16


The Soul Economy
Spirits produce Soul PowerTM in life, which is collected in the afterlife.
#998
2015/08/16


The Purpose of the Godsmoot
It's a neutral meeting ground for the gods, who don't meet in person across pantheons anymore. More here, on both Godsmoots in general and the one in the comic in particular.
#998
2015/08/13


How Non-Theistic Religions Work in OOTS
More on the Giant's view for D&D in general here and here.
#995
2015/08/01


On Elven and Goblin Deities
The Elves worship Western gods in addition to their own. The goblins worshipped no one prior to the ascension of the Dark One.
#978
2015/03/19


Elven Government and Political Relations with the Outside World
Why did the elves help Azure City yet not try to stop Tarquin's tyranny? More here
#915
2013/08/29


Class Systems and Careers
Also, FYI, Durkon isn't "white."
#882
2013/04/08


Nergal and Undeath
Nergal is not against undeath. Malack just doesn't like using the undead as cannon fodder.
#870
2013/02/21


The Rise of the Dark One
The other gods lost their one shot to gang up on him and kill him. The Dark One has since been building his power.
#864
2013/01/04


Religions and Deities in OOTS World
Background details on who worships whom, and on Thor, Hel, and the Twelve Gods.
#848
2012/04/11


SoD Paladins & Miko's Fall
Only the crayon pages are narrative by Redcloak. Not every event is necessarily "seen." Certain scenes are largely shown from Redcloak's perspective. Details of why the paladins who killed Redcloak's people may or may not have fallen, why it doesn't matter, and how showing it would have cheapened the effect of Miko's fall later.
#706
2010/03/15


On Evil Characters and Resurrection
Evil characters are not discouraged / prohibited from raising the dead in OOTSverse. Right-Eye's family wasn't raised because Redcloak doesn't control Team Evil's finances to pay for resurrection, Xykon does.
#566
2008/06/15





Reading Too Much Into It

The Colors of the Council of Clan Barriers Are Not a Portal Reference
"I've never played Portal and forgot it existed until you just pointed it out."
#1157
2019/03/01


About the Lizardfolk Prostitute in #676
It was a joke about then-recent 4th Edition D&D's Dragonborn art. "It is not a trans gender individual at all (because it is a cis-female)...."
#1143
2018/10/09


Repeated Strip Titles are Accidental (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/893520904571031552)
#1088
2017/08/04


HPoH ( https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png ) Made a Tactical Error in #1009
Durkon "showed him Roy telling him the story about what happened with Eric. That's it."
#1009
2015/10/19


The Comic (not) Commenting on D&D Playstyles
"There is more important thematic ground in this world for me to cover than whether or not people powergame."
#995
2015/07/30


On the Title "Blood Runs in the Family"
It's a composite of two synonymous expressions, "'[Trait] runs in the family' and '[trait] runs in the blood'".
#991
2015/06/27


Earth isn't in the Rift
"Earth will never show up."
#945
2014/02/15


On Blackwing, Rifts, and Memory
#944
2014/02/10


Is Thog Mentally Handicapped?
No, he is not. See also here (on why a mentally handicapped character will not be portrayed)
#935
2013/12/30


Malack's Chamber Plans
This was intended to use the imagery of factory farming, not the Holocaust. Malack plans to create a vampire ruling class.
#875
2013/03/01


Malack's Vampirism and LGBT
Malack's condition is not an allegory for LGBT.
#875
2013/03/01


Belkar's Jokes
Belkar making a joke about something does not make it so.
#786
2011/04/11


Current Politics
There are no references to current politics in the strip beyond those which readers invent themselves.
#732
2010/07/02


TV Tropes
Rich is aware it exists. No, he doesn't use it for ideas or reference it in any way in the comic.
#705
2010/03/04


Hidden Meanings
Not everything in the comic has one.
#667
2009/06/02

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:05 AM
Note: For character stats and items, see the D&D rules section.
The Order of the Stick

On Haley, Honesty and History
"...She literally says she is going to miss being honest with Crystal."
#981
2015/04/28


OOTS were Originally Going to Wander the Dungeon Forever
Which changed partly for the joke potential in towns and wilderness.
#980
2015/04/26


The Main Cast were Devised for Joke Potential
"Silly jokes for Elan, angry jokes for Belkar, sarcasm for Roy, etc."
#980
2015/04/26


Haley is Bisexual
#972
2015/01/13


Belkar Turned Down the Gnome Merchant in #969
"Whether or not it would be immoral for Belkar to go on the date is...less important than how Belkar feels about going on the date." Also discusses Haley's morals.
#969
2014/12/01


Haley's Decision to Stop Using Gendered Insults
It's growth of her character. She's been trying to be a better person since being with Elan.
#959
2014/07/31


Why V Didn't Kill Laurin
Character growth: V is learning not to kill "from a purely consequentialist viewpoint."
#935
2013/12/20


Belkar and Bloodfeast
Belkar's concerns about 'Bloodfeast' were part of his character development, not an effort to make V look bad.
#932
2013/11/20


The Dream Runes
Elan's victory as character development. Also, Nale was the only LG member affected by the runes.
#893
2013/06/11


V is a Vegetarian
#891
2013/06/03


What Belkar Saw
What Belkar saw while affected by the dream runes.
#890
2013/05/25


V's Children
The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.
#882
2013/04/09


Haley's Leadership
A greedy self-centered rogue becomes leader. Belkar and Haley are the only one's who questioned her leadership skills during the Azure City Resistance.
#882
2013/04/07


Durkon and Malack's Breakup
Durkon reacts not only to Malack's vampirism, but to his alliance with the Linear Guild. He knows that Malack does not know Belkar isn't innocent.
#872
2013/02/26


Parental Problems
Parents are in the story only to introduce conflict. That fathers are included and mothers are absent for the human characters is simply a coincidence.
#815
2011/11/18





Vector Legion

The Inspiration for Tarquin was Elan
#980
2015/04/26


Tarquin's Adventuring Party is Named "Vector Legion" (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435651746556149760)
#945
2014/02/17


Drama and Breaking a Character
"Drama is all about taking characters and pushing them until they break, one way or the other. If a character can't be broken, then they have no place as a main character in a story." More here.
#934
2013/12/08


Malack is not Paranoid
#906
2013/07/30





Other Characters

On Hinjo and Miko
"Cousin" is an informal term of address, they aren't legally related.
#1122
2018/05/21


On Hilgya and Her Husband Ivan
"...their marriage was never consummated and he probably was completely unaware that she was forced into it..."
#999
2015/08/20


About Thirden
He made an effort to improve his diction over the years, and "Squeaky" is a nickname about his singing voice.
#991
2015/06/22


Bozzok and Crystal's Falling Out
Bozzok told Crystal she couldn't think for herself; Crystal proved otherwise.
#981
2015/04/29


Miko and Kilkil Developed Differently than Planned
#980
2015/04/26


O-Chul Offset His Low Charisma with Social Skill
#980
2015/04/25


The MitD ( :mitd: ) Reveal is a Crucial Part of the Story
"...It will happen when it's time for it to happen. "
#980
2015/04/24


The Secret Society of the Sapphire Guard
A subset of the Twelve Gods' clerics and paladins; Every member had some cleric or paladin levels.
#980
2015/04/24


Hel Has No Living Worshippers
"That means literally not one single living person, ever."
#962
2014/09/11


On Julio rescuing Tarquin's Brides-to-be
Julio rescued the potential brides from Tarquin before their weddings, not after.Virginia is one of the rescued brides-to-be.
#932
2013/11/21


Kubota and Hinjo
Why Kubota still wanted to kill Hinjo after the other nobles had given up.
#891
2013/06/09


The Azurite Nobles and Hinjo
The nobles thought they could save their own skins from Xykon with Hinjo out of the way.
#891
2013/06/06


Scrying in the Desert
It was Zz'dtri who scryed on the Order after they found Girard's illusion.
#870
2013/02/18


Miko's Popularity
Miko's story was not "cut short" because of fan opinions - it was precisely the length intended. Rich does not make storytelling decisions based on finances.
#863
2012/12/18


Miko and Shojo
Shojo was the "tape" that held Miko's character together for so long. He was responsible for much in Miko that was good/positive.
#815
2011/11/18


V's Splices
There won't be a prequel book about them, and Rich hasn't developed a backstory for them. Just 3 evil souls.
#801
2011/08/21


Sarah Met Eugene When She Was Nineteen
#650
2009/05/02


Miko's Unchanging Role
"Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed."
#559
2008/05/29


Miko's Blade Blood-Bathing Comment in #120
"...she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away."
#285
2006/02/23








Storytelling Mistakes?

On the Ephemerality of Memories from the Afterlife (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376)
Roy can remember anything that happened in the clouds, and the rest is "fuzzy" but not completely forgotten (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256).
#1022
2016/02/08


Assume Accuracy Unless Shown Otherwise
"It works because I say it works, and the rest of the story will be written as if it works," and dialog is how the comic conveys non-visual information.
#1000
2015/08/30


Why Roy Didn't Mention the World in the Rift at the Godsmoot
Roy assumed the gods already knew, and bringing it up wouldn't have helped the comic.
#998
2015/08/13


The Improbable Happens
The most statistically probable outcome of an event isn't necessarily what occurs.
#980
2015/04/23


Why Elan Didn't Hold Tarquin Prisoner
Story-notable villains never stay captured; Elan knew this. More here.
#975
2015/02/16


OOTS is Not Still in Girard's Illusion
"If you don't like the story since then, then you just don't like the story."
#942
2014/01/28


Malack is Ash
Vampires take their gear with them when they assume gaseous form, but not when they're destroyed.
#906
2013/07/28


On Character Importance and Leadership Skills
The Giant doesn't feel a character suffers for not having "leadership skills," and won't force someone's development just to give them said skills.
#882
2013/04/07


On Plots and Boredom
"If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles, and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing."
#876
2013/03/02


True Resurrection
True Resurrection as a narrative-wrecking device, and an answer to the age-old "why didn't x character do y?" question.
#862
2012/09/07


A Missed Opportunity in 602?
Why Hilgya was not the Cleric of Loki working for the Thieves' Guild.
#860
2012/08/18


The Gods Created Creatures After The World Was Created
Is this a contradiction? No. There is no Gaia hypothesis in OOTS world.
#845
2012/03/20


No Purpose?
"As a general rule of thumb, no one should say the sentence, 'There's no (or no other) possible narrative purpose for Rich to have done X!' until the story is completed. Because there's always a narrative purpose, you just haven't thought of what it is."
#826
2012/01/10


Surprises Are Not Deus Ex Machinas
More here.
#806
2011/09/19


Racism and Sex in OOTS
There's no correlation between skin color and promiscuity, nor is there too much promiscuity among the women portrayed in the comic.
#650
2009/05/02


Typo in 597?
Nope. It is a joke.
#597
2008/09/30


On the Legality of Miko Arresting the Order of the Stick
Shojo was asserting "holy" authority for the charges, and no secular authority opposed Miko detaining the Order.
#251
2005/12/01





Plot Holes

How Hel Predicted the Godsmoot Vote
The exact same vote was held in the Order of the Scribble's day, and she knew enough the gods individually to make an accurate estimation.
#1000
2015/08/27


On the (Un)importance of Random NPCs
Minor characters should not be expected to resolve critical plot elements. Regardless of what those plot elements may mean for their future.
#968
2014/11/21


Why Didn't Malack Prepare Word of Recall?
Further explanation here and here (with a few remarks on plot holes in general).
#906
2013/07/29


Did Durkon Lie?
No, the Giant forgot that Durkon said he didn't prepare "Detect Magic."
#894
2013/06/19


Why Didn't Girard Prepare a Better Trap Against Undead?
"There is a big jump from knowing that illusions don't affect undead to being able to do anything about it--or expecting every defense to affect every possible creature type."
#893
2013/06/11


Roy Knowing Redcloak Had An Eyepatch in Girard's Illusion
O-Chul and Vaarsuvius both told him. It's covering the wrong eye because they didn't specify which eye.
#886
2013/05/04


Why Destroy Tsukiko's Remains if Redcloak was just going to tell Xykon he killed her?
One reason is so that Xykon would be unable to Speak With Dead on Tsukiko... or Raise Dead.
#866
2013/01/26


The Giant Addresses Supposed Inconsistencies, Part II
A character thinking one thing instead of another thing is not a mistake, it just is. The rift grew according to Redcloak's predictions, but he was measuring the actual hole, not the cracks.
#816
2011/11/30


The Giant Addresses Supposed Inconsistencies, Part I
Including - why Haley was surprised that Miko was killed, info on Nale's self-delusion and ego, how the rift got so close to Xykon's Tower (it grew), and what is and isn't a plot hole.
#816
2011/11/29





Writing Process

On Choices and Character Deaths
"Character deaths are a function of that character's traits, not random. Their deaths flow logically from their flaws." More here.
#981
2015/04/30


On Open-Ended Characterization
"I don't really bother deciding things about the characters unless they have a purpose." Details like Elan's last name will be revealed if/when they become significant to the story.
#980
2015/04/26


The Giant Writes Everything Too Long
In his own opinion, at least.
#980
2015/04/26


Advice for Aspiring Webcomic Writers
"It's important, when starting a career like this, to know what your true priorities are and pursue them...."
#980
2015/04/26


D&D Rules that Harm the Story
True Resurrection, and also Teleport.
#980
2015/04/25


How the Giant Outlines the Comic's Plot
"I plan it out meticulously first and then edit it all on the fly."
#980
2015/04/23


Characters as Plot Devices
Both Redcloak and Malack had humble beginnings that developed into something more.
#906
2013/07/28





Tools and Logistics

There is no OotS "Series Bible" (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/986309286769975303)
#1117
2018/04/17


On the Absence of a Random Comic Button
"...I don't think it's really that good of an idea considering how tightly connected the comic is from one strip to the next."
#984
2015/05/11


A Buffer of Strips Wouldn't Help
"A buffer is therefore counterproductive because it reduces the urgency to produce."
#980
2015/04/25


The Giant Would have Split Book Five's Arc to Make It Easier to Print (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435649388950462464)
"But there are too many threads that go through both to split now."
#945
2014/02/17





Forum and Reader Reactions

There is No Longer a "Target Audience" for OOTS
"...I just write it and let it all work itself out. "
#980
2015/04/24


The Giant on Fanfiction
"I'm not a huge fan of it....If people enjoy fanfiction then cool for them. It's just not for me." More here.
#980
2015/04/24


Is Power an Intended Theme of the Comic?
"...Power doesn't interest me at all per se, but the ongoing and habitual mischaracterization by a subset of my readers about what constitutes power does."
#980
2015/04/23


How the Giant (Doesn't) Deal with Reader Criticism
"There are also deep tissue structural reasons for every single strip that appears, but most readers will never be aware of them, even after the fact."
#980
2015/04/17


On the Forum and the Comic
"I don't mind the analysis (or overanalysis) of the comic anymore...." See also here, on the topic of forum speculation.
#978
2015/03/24


The Giant Shows Obvious Tactics Not Working
"...to avoid constant comments like, 'Haley is so dumb, why doesn't she use the wands she just bought on it?'" Also, Haley used a wand of Magic Missile in #973.
#973
2015/01/22


On Writing Female Characters
The difficulties and fan reactions.
#883
2013/04/09


V's Gender History
Why Rich made V's gender ambiguous and what discussions about it were like in the early days. Roy's 'V-man' comment is not necessarily indicative of V's true gender.
#793
2011/05/29





References and Influences

Don't Expect Any More Tribute Strips
#1147
2018/11/27


Elan's Exclamation in On the Origin of PCs
"Last, best hope for peace" is a Babylon 5 reference.
#980
2015/04/27


The Giant Hasn't Read the Discworld Books
Nor is "Only living things can learn and change" a theme of OOTS. More on the Giant and the works of Terry Prachett here.
#980
2015/04/25


On Managing Real-World References
Research is done to validate references.
#980
2015/04/25


Influences on the Comic
#980
2015/04/24


Martin
The Giant hasn't read George R. R. Martin.
#913
2013/08/22


The Dwarven god Thor (http://web.archive.org/web/20070220022000/http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7283)
OOTS Thor is not based off of D&D Thor. Until referenced in the comic, the Nordic legends/mythology does not exist in OOTSverse.
#86
2004/07/12





Story Development

The Golden Mist Barrier at the Godsmoot
It's a normal feature, to prevent votes from being voided by departure.
#1005
2015/09/15


Selective Hearing at the Godsmoot
"The purpose of this meeting is to listen to each other, not mortals." The Good gods aren't in control, either.
#998
2015/08/16


Character Awareness and Limitations of Panel-to-Panel Storytelling
The last panel of #995 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) was intended to convey "Durkon notices Belkar turning to run." More on looking around (in and out of D&D rules) here.
#995
2015/08/04


On Veldrina Representing the Western and Elven Churches
"...she's an elf, and the elves don't worship the Northern Gods."
#990
2015/06/15


On Swirly Eyes and Continuity from Comedy
#968
2014/11/20


Why the Hobgoblin Army Was Homogenous
"I didn't really want the audience to weep for the hobgoblin dead, though, so I made them all interchangeable."
#946
2014/03/02


The Plot Has Been Rearranged and Expanded More Than It Has Changed (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435629544536412160)
#945
2014/02/17


A Battle with the Linear Guild was Cut from Book Five (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435644993655410688)
See also here (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435646383182196736) and here (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435648354219872257).
#945
2014/02/17


The Story is Still (Sort Of) Evolving (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435643356761178112)
"I'm trying to wrap up more than I add, but if there weren't room to add I would get bored before the end."
#945
2014/02/17


Durkon Becomes a Vampire
Originally, Durkon was going to become a vampire in the dungeon of Dorukan. This plot element has been developing for some time and even predates Xykon himself. This strip is included as a bonus in book 5 (Blood Runs in the Family). (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS05.html)
#906
2013/07/28


Plotting the Girard's Gate Arc
"Writing begins with the scenes that I want to have happen, and then I develop stuff around them to make that seem reasonable."
#906
2013/07/28


Nale's Wand
Its function in the story. Also, a brief side-note about why Xykon showed up at Girard's gate a few seconds too late.
#904
2013/07/25


Worldbuilding vs. Foreshadowing
"Say hello to your boss for me."
#801
2011/08/18


Dungeon of Dorukan History
Originally, Dorukan was not even necessarily a person.
#196
2005/06/20





Reflections from the Author

The Giant on Doing Things Differently
"I'm not really a 'go back and change it' kind of guy". Though if the comic were to restart today, #35 would never be made, there would be more women in the cast, and less direct rules references.
#980
2015/04/25


The Giant's Four Basic Regrets About the Comic
#980
2015/04/25


The Giant's Favorite Story Arc
Start of Darkness. "It's the most complete as a story."
#980
2015/04/25


The Giant's Favorite Book
"...the most recent one." (Blood Runs in the Family)
#980
2015/04/25


Writing OOTS isn't All Fun and Laughs
Also, the Giant on regrets and emotions while drawing the comic, and on the jokes he's the most happy with.
#980
2015/04/24


The Giant on Satisfying Strips
#980
2015/04/24





Real World Intent

There are no Plans to Include a Transgender Character
"...transgender-ism is the sole topic that has seen multiple people telling me my work caused them personal pain...." More here and here.
#1143
2018/10/10


On Author and Character Separation
"Not everything a character says is intended to be the author's point of view. "
#980
2015/04/24


Verisimulitude as a Tool
It's for story elements that shouldn't attract reader attention. More here.
#979
2015/03/30


On Why The Giant Writes for Representation
"To do otherwise would be self-serving cowardice."
#972
2015/01/13


Authorship and Responsibility
"Every aspect of the comic is under my direct control, so the only person who should be judged regarding the appropriateness of the language is me...." Also see this.
#959
2014/07/27


The Importance Of Messages in Stories
"The author should not leave out his or her message so as not to disrupt the delicate story." More here: "The story is a tool for getting my ideas across, nothing more." (Also, Hinjo is color-blind.)
#959
2014/07/25


The Giant Applauding 5E D&D's Acknowledgement of Diversity (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/492520533456461824)
Specifically, how the core rules take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality; as referred to the article here (http://www.themarysue.com/sexuality-and-gender-diversity-dungeons-and-dragons-next/).
#958
2014/07/24


On Distasteful Jokes in OOTS
"I simply have no interest in doing so anymore because I have grown the **** up since then...." Also, there will be no rape scenes and no more spiked tentacle jokes in the comic.
#935
2013/12/20


Tarquin's Internal and External Evil
About the message that the Giant developed Tarquin's character in part to convey.
#934
2013/12/08


Stereotypes and Characters
More thoughts on stereotypes, including race, weight, and vocation.
#931
2013/11/19


On the story taking a more moral stance
Two reasons from the author.
#931
2013/11/19


Slut-shaming in OOTS
Rich apologizes for Haley's slut-shaming in the comic, and gives further thoughts.
#931
2013/11/18


Challenging Storytelling Conventions
" people who need to have their strict views on storytelling challenged. Much like Tarquin does."
#930
2013/11/13


Art Should Challenge Preconceptions
#891
2013/06/07


LGBT Characters
Why there aren't more in the comic. Also see this, and what the Giant is doing about it.
#882
2013/04/08


The Purpose of Fiction
"Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism." See also here.
#835
2012/02/14


D&D, Alignment, and Morality
Rich on the comic's criticism of the way D&D has been played for over three decades. "D&D cannot and should not begin and end at black-and-white, and indeed already doesn't, if everyone would just learn to look at things a little more complexly." See also here (D&D "racism" and alignment).
#835
2012/02/14





Character Naming

Azurite Names
Why O-Chul isn't Oh Chul.
#879
2013/03/10


Tarquin's Name
Named after a Roman King, not the Grand Moff.
#749
2010/10/11


Malack's Name
Not based off of Darth Malak. Originally was going to be named Malachi.
#749
2010/10/10





The Story as a D&D Spoof

The OOTS World is a Humorously-Thin D&D Setting
"...the generic vanilla world I'm using in OOTS fits for a comedic satire of the fantasy genre."
#949
2014/04/21


On Children, Souls and Afterlives
Also, D&D cosmology makes no sense. More here (also, there is no "overgod" in the OotS cosmology).
#946
2014/03/19


D&D Spoofing
The Giant on the comic's shift in focus from D&D gag-a-day jokes to a story that might appeal to a broader fanbase. More here.
#829
2012/01/22








Note: Digital PDFs of certain comic books are now available, see the shop page (http://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html) for more details.
[th="colspan: 3"]Supporting the Strip

Why the Giant Doesn't Use Print-On-Demand
"You would be paying more for worse books...."
#1119
2018/05/03


On the Comic As a Business
The website was originally intended to support a game design career, and the gaming comic was envisioned to keep people visiting the site to see the latest gaming articles. The comic was never produced purely for arts' sake: "It is a business of selling a creative work, but it is still a business."
#1066
2017/02/21


Other eBooks
The Giant has "every intention of releasing all the regular books in the series as PDFs", and possibly Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales eventually.
#1066
2017/02/21


Why Some PDFs are Larger than Others
High resolution raster artwork, mostly.
#1029
2016/03/22


The OotS Strips in Gygax Magazine Will Be in a Collection Someday
#1020
2016/01/22


The Kickstarter Cameo
It's Veldrina, who first appeared in 986 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0986.html).
#986
2015/05/18


The Giant's Feeling about the Kickstarter Today
"Complex."
#980
2015/04/27


On Webcomics and Print as Mediums
The webcomic is just a distribution method.
#980
2015/04/25


Publication in Another Language?
Unlikely to happen.
#980
2015/04/25


The Giant Doesn't Know How the Kickstarter Stories Will Be In Print Yet (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435652693353197568)
"One book or dispersed?" "...no idea yet."
#945
2014/02/17


How to Financially Support the Giant
Rich does not accept direct donations. Buying merchandise is preferred. More here, including thoughts about Patreon and digital products.
#918
2013/09/14


An OOTS "Munchkin" Board Game?
No current plans for one.
#897
2013/07/06


An OOTS Computer Game?
No current plans for one. See here for more.
#892
2013/06/10


For Those Who Missed Out on Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/599092525/the-order-of-the-stick-reprint-drive/posts/180096)
The swag, sans patches, will be very likely available again at some point.
#870
2012/02/24


Top Webcomics
Do not vote for OOTS on Top Webcomics.
#724
2010/05/19









Start of Darkness

How Xykon Broke Out
How Xykon broke out (with some insight into The Giant's writing process). On Xykon and Redcloak's escape from Lirian, see also this post.
#862
2012/09/07


Redcloak's Little Sister
She had not committed an Evil act, and certainly did not deserve execution.
#835
2012/02/14







Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails

Dragon Magazine Alternate Panel
What didn't show up in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails.
#799
2011/08/03







How the Paladin Got His Scar

Hinjo is "Around 15-16" during How the Paladin Got His Scar
And the animal Saha Kapoor spoke with is a binturong.
#1135
2018/08/19







Kickstarter Bonus PDFs

Cornered For Donations
"Nervous" and "Afraid" look pretty much the same, which helped with the misdirection at the start of Belkar's story.
#871
2013/02/25


Fire Threat
Belkar did not actually burn the town down on his first adventure.
#870
2012/02/23











Index Threads

The Index of the Giant's Comments V - On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index
Curated by Jasdoif.
#1025
2016/02/24


The Index of the Giant's Comments IV - A Rich Source of Quotassium
Curated by Jasdoif.
#976
2015/02/25


The Index of the Giant's Comments III - We've Left a Banana In Charge
Curated by Jasdoif.
#946
2014/03/09


The Index Reloaded --- (Index of the Giant's Comments II)
Curated by ThePhantasm.
#928
2013/11/08


Index of the Giant's Comments
Curated by ThePhantasm.
#812
2011/10/25

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:06 AM
Part 1: Kickstarter and the Fans
- 1A: Introduction
- 1B: OOTS Kickstarter Project
- 1C: OOTS Fandom & GiTP Forums
- 1D: OOTS Soundtrack Thread & OOTS Animated
- 1E: OOTS & Social Networking

Part 2: The Comic and Role-Playing Games
- 2A: On Whether Rich Has Time For Role-Playing
- 2B: Will There Ever Be an OOTS World Created for a Gaming System?

Part 3: The Comic's Storyline, Part I
- 3A: The "Darkness" of the Storyline
- 3B: On Behind-The-Scenes Story Commentary In Interviews and Books
- 3C: What Is The Comic About?
- 3D: On The Comic & D&D Rules
- 3E: Creating the Character Wall Poster
- 3F: On Fanart & Whether Roy Wears Pants
- 3G: Putting an End to the Crack Pairings Thread

Part 4: Modern Fantasy and D&D
- 4A: On Keeping Fantasy New & Interesting
- 4B: TVTropes & Lazy Criticism
- 4C: Public Perception of D&D
- 4D: Jack Chick & Tom Hanks

Part 5:The Comic's Storyline, Part II
- 5A: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Jokes For
- 5B: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Drama / Character Struggles For
- 5C: Vaarsuvius' Moral Conflict
- 5D: The Storyline & the D&D Alignment System
- 5E: On Keeping Plot Twists Secret
- 5F: The Desert Plot Arc & Law vs. Chaos
- 5G: The Possibility of an Order of the Scribble Prequel Book
- 5H: The Kickstarter Donor's Choice Stories
- 5I: The Conclusion of the Storyline
- 5J: How Much Story Is Left To Tell

Part 6: Outro and Ending

Special Thanks to Xapi and B.Dandelion for transcribing the interview. Reformatted for the index by ThePhantasm. Original interview by Jesse Baruffi and David Lawrence of Geekademia.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:07 AM
Geekademia Interview (http://podcasts.non-productive.com/index.php?id=542)

1A: Introduction

Jesse - Hello, this is Geekademia on the Non-Productive Network, my name is Jesse Baruffi...

David - I'm David Lawrence.

Jesse - ...and we're here with another special guest, Rich Burlew, the author and artist of the Order of the Stick! Hello Rich!

Rich - Hey, how's it going?

1B: OOTS Kickstarter Project

Jesse - Pretty good. So, the reason... I think the reason we were able to get you on today is the fact that you're going through a very large donation drive at the moment on the website Kickstarter.

Rich - Yes. Yes, I am.

Jesse - So, to anyone who might not know about this, why don't you tell us a little bit about it?

Rich - Alright, well. For a while I've published my own books, of the Order of the Stick, and because I'm a small one person company, I ran out, essentially, of all the existing books, which isn't just a problem for selling those books, but also for selling any future books, because people like to have things in whole sets, so I was worried about what would happen when I put out my next book if my entire back catalog was unavailable.

So I had heard about Kickstarter, I had followed some projects and I thought "Well, I'll put up a little Kickstarter and we'll try to get..." I get people bugging me all the time to... not bugging, you know... asking all the time when the next reprint would be of one of my books in particular, War and XPs, which is the biggest, fattest, most expensive book to print so far. So I was like... and I absolutely did not have the money for it.

And so I thought "Well, I'll put up a Kickstarter for it, and if it goes well, I get to reprint the book, and if it doesn't go well, I'll have something to say next time somebody asks me [why] isn't War and XPs in print". And I thought that was worth it right there. So I set up this Kickstarter project drive and it's... pretty good so far. We got it funded enough to reprint that book in about... 36 hours I'd say, and it's gone on from there to funding the reprinting of every single book that I have - six - the ones that are regularly in print, and it's been pretty amazing. I had no idea that I'd get this sort of response from my readers. Yeah, it's been a ride, to say the least.

1C: OOTS Fandom & the GiTP Forums

Jesse - As someone who goes on the forums on your website from time to time, it seems you've got some extremely devoted fans.

Rich - Yes, that would be an extremely charitable description. No, it's wonderful, I love my fans, I do have fans that are very dedicated, often more dedicated than I am. You know, they're dedicated to some of the minutiae about the comic that has never crossed my mind, and... but that's great, I mean, I'm happy that they can get that enjoyment from it, even though I don't want to even worry about it. . . [crosstalk] . . .like the number of character appearances or who has the most number of kills in the comic, you know. Good for them. . . [unintelligible]

Jesse - Yeah, you've got bigger things to worry about, like what happens in the story. . .

Rich - Story, yeah.

1D: The OOTS Soundtrack Thread & OOTS Animated

Jesse - One thing I noticed recently on the forum that I thought was kinda interesting is the fact that people have started to. . . sort of making a soundtrack to the series. . .

Rich - I saw the thread title, but I haven't been. . . I haven't been on the forums as much as I should since this started, been having to put up an update almost every single day for the past two weeks, so I haven't actually caught exactly what's going on there, but it's an interesting idea, I mean, I know that Homestuck does similar sorts of things with the fans creating soundtracks and he actually uses them in his animation, which I don't think is gonna happen for the Stick, but it's still a great idea to be able to have something to listen to... I don't know, it's an interesting idea.

1E: OOTS & Social Networking

Jesse - One thing that I really wanted to ask you about, 'cause I think this is kinda fascinating... I've noticed most people in the webcomics... I guess, field? . . . are. . . basically kinda throw themselves on every social networking site there is, whether it's like Facebook or Twitter or Tumbler or any of that stuff.

Rich - And you're saying I'm a backwards Luddite hermit.

Jesse - Well, yes, but I mean it as a compliment.

Rich - I had to download Skype in order to have this conversation.

Jesse - I certainly don't mean that as an insult. It seems to me that it's something we here at Geekademia don't even use a lot of that stuff. I had to be dragged kicking and screaming to have a Facebook page for the podcast. But I was just wondering if that was a conscious decision on your part or is that something you're just too busy for.

Rich - Yeah, it's pretty much a conscious decision, I mean, I am a technologically backwards Luddite, that makes it easy . . . but second, I think, if I want people to see my content, I want them to sort of come to my website, instead of maintaining different websites at 15 different social networks. I don't want to have to worry about whether my Facebook page is updated in addition to my website. And some of these I'm just a late arrival to, in the sense that there is an Order of the Stick website that somebody created, a fan created, and it's been out there and everybody's linked to it, and everyone liked it in their profiles or whatever and I don't have control of that, so rather than there being two competing Facebook pages I just sort of let that live it's own life as a fan created thing and I'll concentrate on my own website.

I will probably get dragged into Twitter very soon [N.B. As of 3/15/2012 Rich has a Twitter account for OOTS. -ThePhantasm] but, ah, not yet, haven't crossed that threshold yet, and every thing else, either I'm oblivious to it or I just haven't had the time to learn and figure out whether it works for me.

Jesse - Ok.

Rich - I think I'm also a little bit older than a lot of the other webcomic - I mean, I'm not OLD old, I'm 37, but I think a lot of the webcomic creators out there are college or just there after, and therefore are a lot more 'up' on these technologies than I am. And I use a Mac, which is not always up to speed up until very recently with the iPad explosion coming and such.

Jesse - Gotcha. Well that makes sense and I'm only a little bit younger than you, but yeah, I kinda feel similarly. If I was going to do something creative, I'd focus on that instead of the endless, like, updating of other things, personally.

Rich - Yeah, I have enough trouble keeping my own website updated, so it seems like I would just be adding more work on myself. And I had a fairly large audience before Facebook became "the" thing that everybody had to be on. I started this in 2003, I don't know exactly when Facebook started peaking, but I know that I already had a substantial audience by that point, so I don't know that I saw right away what the benefit would be, and now that I do, it looks like somebody already did a page for me, so. . . I let it be.



2A: On Whether Rich Has Time For Role-Playing

Jesse - Order of the Stick is of course a huge gaming comic so I was wondering if you still had time to do any role-playing these days?

Rich - No, no, I haven't in a while. The last role-playing I did was when I was working on... when I was gonna do Snips, Snails an Dragon Tales, the limited book with the Dragon Magazine strips, I did some 4th Edition role-playing to be sure I knew sort of what I was talking about, which I probably didn't but I can pretend better, and that was over a year ago now.

It just doesn't work, you know, it hasn't really worked out that way, that I had as much time for that as I used to, sort of fallen by the wayside, but not in a way that I'll never go back to it, just in a time way. I think you get busy at a certain point in your life, with your work and your family and your such and such, and whether or not you have time for it is sort of random, sort of up in the air. I mean, I still get a lot of that sort of fix from thinking about it, talking about it and such like that.

But in a certain point, I was always the DM when I played, and at a certain point it just feels like I'm taking that much time to craft a complex story, maybe I should just write it down and someone would pay me for it. I guess that's possibly maybe a little bit of it, because I'm now sort of essentially a professional fantasy writer, that I can't really bring myself to put the same amount of effort I did when I was in college and such and it was the focus of my creative attention.

2B: Will There Ever Be an OOTS World Created for a Gaming System?

Jesse - And along those lines, I realize that doing it at this point would probably be a mountain of effort and give too much away, but I've seen people on the forums asking if some day there would actually be an Order of the Stick world created for any sort of gaming system. Do you think you would do that if you had the time and opportunity?

Rich - Let me tell you, I started working on that a few years ago, and what happened is, I got about 20 or 30 pages in, and WotC announced 4th Edition. And I didn't know what was gonna happen with it, I didn't know whether I was gonna want to make it for that, I didn't know if making it on 3rd Edition would still be possible with the game license, would they find a way to revoke that, it was all up in the air, everything was sort of chaos and I had no idea what was gonna happen. . . so I put it aside, and then have never gone back to it since, really.

It wasn't compatible at all with 4th Edition, so therefore that wasn't going to work, and I don't know, I didn't know whether I would ever really have the direct audience that I thought it should so I think I just sort of let it lie fallow after that.

I cannibalized parts of it, the document I started working on. . . I think the last compilation I put out, Don't Split the Party had some black and white cartoons that were from that project, and I know the map that I did in the back of one of them for Azure City was actually of the Azure City country description, so you know, pieces of it have been seen here and there ever since.

But another problem was that I'd done a write up for Elan's Dashing Swordsman class, and since then I had at least three things I've put into the comic, you know. . . here's this joke about this class that has this ridiculous cliched hero abilities. . . and if I put out that class, I can't really do that any more. Can I then say "Oh, it has this ability too?" 'cause I've already taken people's money to say "This is the class that it is!." So I think it's easier to leave things vague and up in the air and just use them when I want to as humor rather than as concrete game rules.


3A: The "Darkness" of the Storyline

Jesse - As far as the storyline of the OotS goes, one thing that has definitely happened as time goes on is that, despite continuing to be funny and continuing to be a humor comic on some level, there have been some much darker elements introduced.

Rich - Yes.

Jesse - So what made you decide to take that shift and still remain with the same characters and story?

Rich - I don't know, I think I've always had a draw to that shock reveal. Not shock for the sake of shocking, but that dramatic sudden moment when something happens in the story you absolutely did not see coming and perhaps as an either darker or more impactful moment that you ever thought was possible in a work, in the work you were seeing.

I used to do that as a DM, I used to set up situations where the players thought one thing was happening the entire time, they walk in the door and see a scene that threw all their preconceptions on the ground and stomped down on them. I think I really enjoy that, I think it creates powerful moments in the story, and sometimes that means doing something dark, sometimes that means taking your comedy villain who is bored and having him slaughter a room full of Paladins with a bouncy ball. You know, because it's so perverse, and it's such a violation of their honor and law mindset, where they're these noble Paladins who will defend to the last man, and they just get destroyed like that. The goal is sort of, not offend, but bother the reader. . . it should bother them. You should look at Xykon and say "He's a horrible monster." He can still crack a funny joke, but you shouldn't be sympathetic to him, and if you are, I don't know if I necessarily I want to know about it, because that's a little scary.

And that was one of the problems with SoD, "here's the story of Xykon," but I'm not going to make him even slightly sympathetic, if anything, you're going to think worse of him by the time you're done with this. So, I think I have an affection for writing the villains, because of that ability to sort of make your jaw drop, you know, heroes can't really do that without. . . you know it's going to be. . . no one's gonna gasp when they do something specially heroic or kind. And I really don't want my heroes to be dark, with the exception of Belkar, but that's another story.

I don't want Roy to suddenly do something out of character or shocking, the closest thing I got to that was I had Haley kill off the assassin that had been harassing her, and that was still pretty surprising, and I think a lot of people didn't see it coming, but I also sort of goofed there in the sense that I cut the scene that made it more obvious that Crystal was still actively trying to kill Haley, truce or no truce, so that was something I fixed in the book. . . but it's still, it was a fairly surprising, but again, like I said, I still have to go darker to be surprising like that, so, I think that's where it comes from really.

Jesse - Ok.

3B: On Behind-The-Scenes Story Commentary In Interviews & Books

Rich - You see I'm just as wordy in my interviews as I am in the comic, it all flows naturally from me.

Jesse - Believe me, we'll have you on as long as you want to stay, if you want to just talk for twenty minutes, that's awesome. I will take one bit of fanboyish break from the interview. . . when we started this podcast, I had a couple of people who were sort of my long shot goals of people to get on the show, and you were towards the top of people I didn't think I'd get but I was gonna try anyway. So I thought you might want to know that. Again, we don't mind to listen to you talk.

Rich - Honestly, I was excited at the chance to talk about something other than Kickstarter, because I've done a bunch of interviews and they're all about Kickstarter, sometimes to the point of not even mentioning what my comic is about. They say there's no such thing as bad publicity, but at a certain point you want people to find out, I mean, the people who already know what my comic is about, already know what my comic is about, so they don't need to get the spiel but I like being able to talk about it, actually about my comic and not how much money I can raise.

Jesse - Sure. As someone who writes as well, not professionally unfortunately, I know it is sort of fun to be able to talk about the creative process, because it one of those things the readers never see, they don't know what's going on in your head while you're doing it.

Rich - Sure, that's why I do the commentary in the books, they're sort of what I would think to talk about, that's not always what someone who is reading would think to talk about or want to know about, so they're not always exactly what people are looking for in terms of behind the scenes.

3C: What Is The Comic About?

Jesse - Ok, I think David wants to ask you a couple of questions. I've been crowding the mic so I'll let him ask a couple of things. . .

David - So, you mentioned nobody asks you what your comic is about... what is your comic about?

Rich - My comic is a comedy adventure fantasy comic. It's about a group of adventurers, heroes or warriors (whatever you want to call them) called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence or knowledge of what they are doing, and eventually sort of stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, essentially, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order, so they get their personal problems taken care of before the final battle. And it's a comedy.

3D: On The Comic & D&D Rules

Specially in the early parts it has a lot of role-playing games... the whole thing is sort of within the framework of Dungeons and Dragons. The early strips made many explicit references to this, specially for jokes. The later strips just use it as the framework of the world, in terms of deciding what kinds of spells can a sorcerer cast, what kinds of spells can a cleric cast, etc. etc. I don't really worry about "oh, this character doesn't have enough hit bonus to... you know, let me roll the dice", if the story needs him to hit, he hits, if the story needs him to miss, he misses.

There's a certain segment of my fans who think that's grossly unfair. Not that they necessarily believe I should roll the dice, but they believe that the percentages should be accurately represented, so that if somebody swings their sword at someone 20 times, they should hit a number of times equal to their, you know, relative attack bonus blah blah blah. That doesn't happen, that's not something I worry about.

But yeah, it's essentially a fantasy adventure quest story, of a warrior out to avenge his father against a sorcerer, and the sorcerer happens to be trying to conquer the world at the same time. That's a nutshell. And it's stick figures, that needs to be said. If you're picturing that in the most elaborate fantasy artwork, that's not what we're talking about. They're basically really simplistic colorful block characters going about this.

3E: Creating the Character Wall Poster

Jesse - You can't see this, but behind us in the studio is the big double poster of all the characters.

Rich - Hah! That took forever.

Jesse - I can tell.

Rich - What's funny is I had worked on it, and then had to put it aside, and when I got back to it I had introduced like 4 new characters that had to go on. I had to find room for Tarquin and Malack and Kil-Kil over in the corner of the villains poster, and I put Captain Malack's helmet on... not Malack, Tarquin's helmet on. He was still new enough that I thought people who weren't caught up to the story, I didn't want them to see who he was before. . . you know some people only read the books. . . yeah, so, did that at the last minute.

3F: On Fanart & Whether Roy Wears Pants

David - It's funny, I just saw some fanart for Order of the Stick, but it was drawn like Frank Frazetta.

Rich - [Laughs] Yes.

David - Super detailed, very. . .

Rich - Yeah, what I always find interesting is the choices they make for the parts of the characters that are really not be able to tell what's going on because they're sticks. I've seen fanart that was really realistic of Roy fighting except for some reason he had no pants, like he had one armor piece over his torso but his legs were bare. That's why I think at one point I had Haley make a crack about how she's wearing long pants but you can't tell because she's a stick figure. Because I wanted to put a stop of that, I wanted no more pantless Roy. That's a whole other direction that I'm sure is out there on the Internet, but I don't need to see it.

David - Well, that kills my next question. . .

Rich - [Laughs]

3G: Putting an End to the Crack Pairings Thread

David - Once again, on the forum for a while, there was a whole section of people. . .

Rich - Oh, yeah. We had to slay that once people started crossing some lines. Once they crossed the Elan - Nale incest line, we had to put a stop to that. . .

David - As well you should.

Rich - Yeah, exactly.

David - There are some weird people there. . .

4A: On Keeping Fantasy New and Interesting

David - There's a question though: can Fantasy be taken seriously anymore?

Rich - You mean in the sense that a lot of it is recycled? A lot of it is the same sort of material all over again? I think so. I think there's definitely something to say with fantasy still. Order of the Stick is in many ways sort of a critique I guess, a spoof of a lot of fantasy cliches, but once you see the cliches, you dodge them. I mean, there's plenty of fantasy writers who don't do the same old "warriors on a quest" thing, which I'm doing but by way of sort of turning it on it's head. I think there's plenty of room in fantasy for unique stories.

I think the number one thing people can do to make their fantasy something new and interesting is to not marry it to the same old medieval sort of time period for no apparent reason. I mean, if magic exists in a world, why can't it exist in a different historical setting. I think there's still plenty to say, and I think there's still plenty for me to make fun of, so, you know, hopefully that will keep going on both sides.

4B: TVTropes & Lazy Criticism

David - Question: We have talked about TVTropes, even mentioned the name. . .

Rich - [Laughs] Sorry, what was the question?

David - The thing is, they have sort of these shorthands, like he's the "Chosen One," he'll save us from "the Dragon" or "the Evil Wizard."

Rich - Yeah, like the next thing that happens would have to be the thing that happens 'cause this thing happened because the trope said so.

David - Yes. I mean, do you think it's possible just to divorce completely. . . to walk away and do something else?

Rich - It's hard. There was a point in time a few years back when I felt like every time I put out a strip the number one response to it was "Oh, he's just doing this trope", "he's just doing that trope", you know, and put a link to it, "see, he's just not original at all". And I don't know whether that just became less popular as a way of sort of pigeonholing things, or whether I've actually broken enough of them now that nobody assumes they know what's gonna happen next. But one way or another that doesn't seem to happen as much anymore.

People try to sort of guess what I'm gonna do, and I hopefully kick it in the shins and run away laughing. But I think there's a danger of over simplification of literature, of becoming so wrapped up in these compartments that put every element of the story that you sort of miss the story. It's sort of like a lazy criticism. Criticism in the classic sense of actually doing a critical piece, not in a complaining way. It lets you churn out an analysis of a work without putting much thought into it. I think it's fun to point to the website and see the different ways different works do the same sort of cliches, not in a bad sense, but I do think there's a danger in taking them too seriously as the 'be all, end all' of literary criticism.

D - Yes, indeed. I have read a lot of fantasy, and it's always like "here's the Chosen One, here's the Local, here's the obviously evil sorcerer who betrays everyone. . ."

Rich - Yeah, exactly. I think fantasy is more prone to that than almost any other genre. And that's partly because there have been a few titans of the genre who sort of formed everything that was to come after.

And also honestly because of Dungeons and Dragons. I think people playing D&D has reinforced certain stereotypes in their mind [unintelligible] RPGs that follow the same tropes and all of these sort of things, has reinforced this sort of monolithic fantasy from which few authors deviate and, well, so. . . but there's a lot of the same old same old out there too. So I think fantasy gets probably a lot more of those, those tropes listed, than almost any other genre.

You know, Science Fiction, I'm a huge SF fan, SF is, every story you read is esentially a completely different setting, I'm sure, Space Opera stuff tends to be a lot of the same, whatever, but you can just go off and do something wildly different and still be Science Fiction, and I think less people do that with Fantasy these days.

4C: Public Perception of D&D

David - You mentioned the impact of Dungeons and Dragons. There was a huge backlash against D&D. . .

Rich - Yeah, sure.

David - Do you think we're likely to see something like that again?

Rich - I don't think so. I mean, there's certainly always going to be people who are still going to say the same charges against it, you know, that are still gonna say the things that weren't true then, and still aren't. But I don't think it's wildly circulating. I think because it was new then, people didn't know what was going on, didn't know what this thing was, and then they got a lot of misinformation from various sources, and the media picked it up and ran with it as a media scare. And now it's old news. It's been around for thirty and some odd years, you don't get articles in the media about Dungeons and Dragons making people sacrifice goats . . . "Dungeons and Dragons is coming out with a new edition, because D&D owner Hasbro has released this information in this press conference, blah blah blah."

So I think that's not gonna resurface. I mean just the fact that it's owned by Hasbro now gives it a legitimacy that I think it probably didn't have back in the day, when it was owned by a bunch of guys in Wisconsin [interference] gives it a "Oh, obviously it has to be OK, it is owned by the company that does Mr. Potato Head." And I don't think it's in Hasbro's interest to let those kind of stories exist.

When you're a big corporation, you kinda get that power in the sense that if they're going to do a story about Dungeons and Dragons, they're going to immediately walk up to your Hasbro or WotC and ask for a quote, and then their sort of media team will take care of it from there. But I think the days of mass hysteria scare about D&D are behind us at this point.

Jesse - I think there are bigger scapegoats now as well.

Rich - Yeah, absolutely, there's the Internet and all of it's glory. Playing D&D seems downright quaint now, you can find people who are in their 50s who've been playing D&D for 30 years, it's not. . . you know, in detriment of the hobby, but it's not something that all teenagers are flocking to these days. When you're 13 you're like "Hey, let's go play D&D tonight!" You have to get those kids into the hobby in a way that isn't really happening right now. I'd say as long as it's not threatening tomorrow's children I think it'll stay on the right side of the public opinion.

4D: [I]Jack Chick & Tom Hanks

David - Speaking of threatening children, what we do on the show... are you familiar with the Jack Chick comic Dark Dungeons?

Rich - I am, vaguely, passingly familiar, as much as any long time D&D player could be.

David - We might have to do a show on Jack Chick.

Rich - I like to think of my comic as a sort of tribute to the great comic that had come before. Could I have done a Dungeons and Dragons themed comic if not, like I said, if not, if the giants of the genre had not put forth that independent comic creation of lore?

Jesse - Dark Dungeons was a very interesting book. I would say it's not even close to the craziest thing Jack Chick has ever done.

Rich - Yeah, not top ten really.

David - No. But the thing I love about his. . .

Rich - [unintelligible] it wasn't as crazy, he's gone really off the [unintelligible] then, then it probably wouldn't have been taken seriously until this day.

David - Well, according to Dark Dungeons, apparently the sourcebook is an actual spell book, from which you can actually, literally just call up the devil and say "hey."

Rich - Spells, yeah, exactly. I've certainly heard that. All I can say is I think the copies I've been using must be defective in some way, either there's a misprint or a page missing because I've been playing the game since I was 11 or 12 and I've yet to actually cast a magic spell, deeply disappointed at that.

David - How about Mazes and Monsters?

Rich - Oh yeah. Tom Hanks has a lot to answer for.

David - Yes he does.

Rich - [unintelligible]

Jesse - He unleashed Forrest Gump upon the world, he has to pay for that. Now we get into Dave's axe grind.

Rich - Personal media vendetta should actually be the title of this podcast.

David - He knows what he did.

Jesse - Where gonna try to get him on the show for a reconciliation. They're gonna hug each other on the air.

Rich - Or just volleyball with him.


5A: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Jokes For

Jesse - Back into the Order of the Stick a little bit as far as the characters, to talk a little about the characters. I have my theories on this, but I'm wondering if you have a personal favorite character as far as writing.

Rich - It depends on whether you mean. Writing the jokes or writing the personality and internal conflicts? Jokes is easy: Belkar, with Elan a close second. You've got your sort of. . . either your violence jokes or your bad person gets their comeuppance jokes with Belkar, and then Elan has your dumb jokes, has your silliness, has your kinda child-like comedy, and I like writing both of those.

5B: Rich's Favorite Characters to Write Drama / Character Struggles For

As far as writing a personal sort of inner thoughts on your life, whatever, things (sic) I really like writing Haley a lot. She's got issues, I think she's probably got the most legitimate issues of the people in the Order, and that makes her interesting to write. It's interesting how she's going to react, based on her upbringing and sort of what she's been through in her life to this situation or that situation.

I think that makes it more. . . to you, Elan's pretty straightforward, you know what he's gonna do. You may not know in the sense that it's something completely random and off the wall and pull out a hand puppet and start worshiping it, but you know he's gonna do something weird and silly and ultimately harmless, because he's a good person, and nothing bad is gonna happen to him as a result.

And you know Belkar's gonna do the opposite, he'll take the most awful, irredeeming sort of path that he can find and get away with.

But you don't know what Haley's gonna do in a situation. She wants to be a good person, but she wasn't raised that way, she was raised to be a thief. And so she sort of has to struggle with being a hero, what comes easily to, well, it comes pretty easily to Roy. He'll snap at people, he'll be sort of verbally abusive, but he's not gonna... he's never attempted to do the wrong thing, really.

Jesse - There was the one time, but...

Rich - Yeah. Exactly, and that was a big point of development for him. But really, since then, that was within the first 150 or 160 strips, so for the majority of the comic's lifetime he's been pretty clear on what he should be doing.

5C: Vaarsuvius' Moral Conflict

Jesse - It seems like Vaarsuvius has become a character with a lot of internal moral conflict recently as well.

Rich - That's true, that is correct, and that was a conscious sort of effort on my part, because I felt like Vaarsuvius had been underutilized. . . by the end of the War and XPs book I felt like Vaarsuvius was sort of. . . "and then we have an elf!" Which is a problem I still have with Durkon but I have plans to address as well.

And so I think I crafted almost all of Don't Split the Party around "let's [unintelligible] a better arc". . . some of it I had planned already, some of it I already knew that when I did the first. . . spoiler by the way, if anyone hasn't read this. . . when I did the first small black dragon, that I was gonna have the older one come back and be a villain in some point that would attack Vaarsuvius for what he or she had done. But the sort of sell your soul angle was a little more recent, and more of an attempt to really get at what Vaarsuvius issues were in life. So that sort of dovetailed nicely into one story that I'm really happy with.

5D: The Storyline & the D&D Alignment System

Jesse - That brings - the whole idea of the Black Dragon and the demons - brings up another thing, which is the idea that you seem to play a lot with: the idea of Evil, like, there's a huge variety of villainous characters with motivations all across the spectrum from, you know, and in some ways it seems like the comic tries to deconstruct that. In other ways it plays it straight. . .

Rich - More like, I think both are valid, you know what I mean? Both are ways of looking at the problem, and I think again ,getting back to the history of fantasy literature, I think there are an awful lot of cardboard cutout tackling [unintelligible] villainy out there, and that's a choice to make when you're writing your story, and I sort of want to have it both ways, I want to be able to have villainy villains, and at the same time, not writing a character that doesn't make sense, not writing a character that doesn't have a motivation to what they're doing.

And I think there's a lot of debate among my fans, because they're not necessarily used to seeing that from fantasy villains, especially when it comes to Black Dragons, undead sorcerers, and Goblins who are out to destroy the Gods. You expect those sort of characters to be very straightforward, and I try to make it a little more complex than that, which, I was thinking, readers, in this [unintelligible] open up alternate interpretations, people would swear that 'cause Redcloak thinks what he's doing is the best for the Goblin people, that Redcloak is in fact the good guy, that he is the hero of the story. And that's... an interesting viewpoint. And I'm glad that I provoked that. I'm glad that I wrote a character that is layered enough that some people would say he's absolutely in the right, but yeah, I really like turning it upside down and not assuming that because it's a Dragon it has no emotions. I think D&D appeals to people who are much more Math & Science oriented, that. . . I can sort of surprise them more by delving into the emotional side of things, and they don't see that coming, if they're D&D fans. And people who are generally fiction fans just enjoy it on it's own merits.

Jesse - So, it comes out to not being as simple as the nine simple moral codes that D&D ascribes to.

Rich - Yeah, and I think one of the themes of Order of the Stick is there's this guide alignment system in D&D where it places every single person in one of these nine moral codes, and for the entire history of the game, that I've played it, people have been complaining that that's overly simplistic. "Oh, it's more complicated than that." And it absolutely is more complicated than that, but they're also doing it wrong. They think because they have this alignment they have to act this way, this one specific given way, and I think each one of those categories is so wide open to interpretation.

And that was a lot of what Miko Misayaki was about, was that she's lawful good, but she's a complete bitch, you wouldn't want to spend time with her at all. And I think that was sort of the flip side of the sympathetic villain: the unsympathetic hero. Or at least good guy. So yeah, I definitely like to subvert expectations in that specific way, because I think the alignment system gets a bad rap from people who aren't trying to make it work, and say "that's overly simplistic."

Jesse: Yeah, I certainly enjoy the alignments for the same reason that you do. I agree that it doesn't have to be super simple. I don't know if you've done this, but have you ever sat around talking about characters in stories and what their alignments were, or your friends for that matter?

Rich: Yeah, back in the day. We used to. . . it's usually a good way to try to explain to new players of D&D how it works, you pick the sort of archetypical characters. But one of the problems with that is that those characters will be associated forever in that mind with what that alignment is. And I also think there's some naming flaws with the alignment. I think by calling one of the alignments "lawful" they've created thirty years of people thinking it means you have to obey every last "keep off the grass" sort of law. And that's not really what it's supposed to mean, it's supposed to mean sort of an ordered way of thinking, having a personal code, having a set of tenets that is greater than yourself.

Jesse: I think that may come from Elric, and Michael Moorcock having the whole. . .

Rich: It absolutely comes from Elric. He did Law and Chaos, those were his two. And you know, he didn't have to worry about a billion people trying to interpret what he meant by that, he just needed to present it in the context of his stories. So no negative to him for doing so, but I think it was adopted and has been argued and debated ever since by people playing the game.

5E: On Keeping Plot Twists Secret

Jesse: As someone who works pretty hard at keeping your story twists shocking and such, do you have anyone that you've brainstormed with, or is it just something you keep completely secret until you're ready to do the big reveal?

Rich: I keep a lot of it internal. I write down notes, I think of things, and sometimes I think of things and change them later. Not deeply, I think my main plot points have been the same since I started really thinking about the plot and sort of sketched out things that would happen, but there are certainly minor details that change at the time I'm writing the scripts. Certainly moment by moment actions can change, twist or whatever in a way if I think of something more interesting at the time that I'm writing it than I did five years ago. Then I go with that, but really the big moments have all been pretty close to how I pictured them a long time ago.

Sometimes, some of these things are where I would be, I would write down a note like "and then they go to the desert." And I knew that when they got to the desert, Tarquin would be there, and they would do some desert-ey stuff with him before going back, before finding out what they needed to find and then go back out. But I didn't really get too worried about what happened in his empire until I was starting to plot this story arc, because it didn't really, it affected them personally but it didn't change the plot with Xykon and Redcloak, so I had the sort of freedom to put that on the shelf until I got to it. Now I would think from here we'll sort of flow more from what I just did than it would have previously, sort of work that back in.

Jesse: The current arc seems to be a lot about family.

Rich: Sure.

5F: The Desert Plot Arc & Law vs. Chaos

Jesse: Actually. . . I've bounced this theory around, but I wanted to ask you if this was something you intended or if it's just my imagination. For the most part, a lot of the conflicts in the book have been about good and evil, but I felt like in the current arc, it's been more about conflicts between law and chaos, would you say that was intentional?

Rich: Absolutely intentional. I mean, I think good and evil are easily grasped, and I think it's a little less intuitive for people to really understand law and chaos, as they are - if they exist - as concepts. Because here you have Tarquin, for most of the first part of the story, is evil, is just straight up evil. But he loves his son. He cares about family. He likes his empire running orderly. He doesn't just sort of go around slaughtering people for kicks. He has a plan, he has a goal, which he's sort of executing step by step. He's not Xykon. He's not this sort of crazy force of evil. You can almost picture Tarquin existing in the real world.

So I think yeah, absolutely -- and then Ian, Haley's father Ian, is sort of the opposite. He's a good guy, but he's abrasive, paranoid, a little bit crazy, a little bit off the deep end, not really together because he's sort of so chaotic that he kinda can't detach from that. He can't be not chaotic for a moment and see the way things are really kinda going on around him. So yeah, I think there's definitely that undercurrent.

Jesse: Yeah. And I noticed sort of the idea of Girard Draketooth and his real hatred of Soon Kim, the two of them being very lawful and very chaotic.

Rich: Right, exactly. Where you would, I think most people would immediately go "yeah, but-but Soon Kim was a paladin, he wouldn't do something bad," and you have to see that to Girard's point of view, just the sort of organiz-- that a man doesn't create a secret organization of warriors unless he plans to use it for something. You know what I mean, the sort of. . . expecting-the-worst-in-human-nature-at-all-times pessimism that says that if Soon Kim is gonna make this sort of legion of magical warriors and keep them secret from his populace, that clearly he's up to something.

And there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid. But yeah, there's more there going on with what happened with the Order of the Scribble than has been revealed. But that's all gonna be unwound as the story comes towards its conclusion. There's more to learn, I mean, they had to go find Girard right now, so some pieces will be found then, I'm sure.

5G: The Possibility of an Order of the Scribble Prequel Book

Jesse: Do you think you may do a prequel book about the Order of the Scribble someday, or is that not something you're sure about?

Rich: I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't currently have any plans to and I wouldn't know what I would do with it. I think the main thrust of their story needs to be included in the online strip. You need to know exactly what happened all that time ago that made them so angry at each other in order to understand the main story. So therefore I wouldn't want to shunt it to a side book. When it needs to be told, it needs to be front and center, and then once it's been told, it'll influence what people think about the characters after that.

So I wouldn't want it to be. . . I had told much of the story, much of the things that Redcloak revealed to Tsukiko in the recent strip about how he was tricking Xykon was already known by people who had read Start of Darkness. But it didn't sort of change what was going to happen next for them to have known it separately. But anything about the Order of the Scribble isn't really like that. It's important in a way that would change things, and therefore it can't be let out of the bag early. But by the same token, I wouldn't object to writing a story of them just fighting Baron Pineapple, or something like that. Certainly wouldn't have any problems with that, but I think the main conflict between them is gonna be in the main comic at some point.

5H: The Kickstarter Donor's Choice Stories

Jesse: Okay. Well, speaking of that, I'm gonna take it back to the kickstarter for just one second.

Rich: Sure.

Jesse: Which was that several people bought stories about characters that they wanted you to write about. And I know you said for a while those had not been revealed to you yet. Has that come about yet, do you know who those characters are going to be?

Rich: Three people have bought them, I've only been contacted by two of them so far. I contacted all of them and have only heard back so far from two of them, they both gave me sort of a spectrum answer of, "I like this character and that character but I wouldn't mind if it was this character." So I haven't nailed down the final list for them. I'm waiting for what the final third person says, because if two of them both pick the same character, then I'm definitely gonna do that one, but otherwise I might pick some of the ones that appeal more to me. So far the ones that have been floated are Therkla, the assassin, the half-orc, the Cliffport police department, do a detective-spoof sort of something like that, and the demon roaches. . . [NB: As of 3/16/2012 the stories are Pre-Order Belkar, Therkla, and the Cliffport Police Department - ThePhantasm] which I've no idea what I would do, but maybe I'll come up with some idea and throw that out there and then some other options beyond that. But then again, it's that I still haven't heard from the third person, so that could be something totally in left field still coming our way.

Jesse: Cool, cool, cool.

5I: The Conclusion of the Storyline

David: I know a lot of webcomics authors say, "well I have a very specific end and that's it." Is Order of the Stick actually gonna have a conclusion, or do you just wanna keep on writing it?

Rich: No, no. It has a conclusion. I know exactly how it ends. I think every single plotline that I've introduced has a definitive conclusion to it that will be in the main comic. It's not gonna be ignored or just left hanging forever. There's definitely gonna be a final book of the main storyline.

But that being said, one of the reasons I've been sort of experimenting with some of these side projects is that there's plenty of room for these characters to keep doing stories. I think they're well-defined characters, and I can always go back. That's why I've been doing things like the Stick Tales and. . . which is the characters telling the story of a famous work but using themselves, sort of like what the Muppets used to do. Then things like Julio Scoundrel spinning off sorta into his own crazy land of comic book type of and that kind of stuff will let me create even when I've moved on to what I'm gonna do next in the world, after the Order of the Stick. I can still come back and do an Order of the Stick related project, even though the story, the plot, has reached its proper conclusion and so on. So I guess I'm sort of setting up now for what will happen next.

5J: How Much Story Is Left To Tell

Jesse: And I think I've read in interviews or in things you've written that the comic is more than halfway done at this point?

Rich: Oh yeah, definitely more than. . . well, I say that, but you should take it with a grain of salt because I run long. Things are always longer than I plan them out to be because I always think of things in the middle that need to be addressed, either they're logical concerns or a character moment that needs to happen in order for it to be emotionally realistic. So then there will be an extra strip here, an extra strip there, and it'll add up. So it's definitely more than halfway done in terms of number of books, but the number of strips left, I don't even have a clue what that's gonna end up being. Some people are all "he's gonna plan to end it at strip 1000." Absolutely not. It will go way past strip 1000 because we're already at 833 and we're not done with this book yet, and there's at least two more books left. So yeah. It's to go. If you're not a reader, there's still plenty of time to jump on.



Jesse: I personally have all the books. No big surprise there considering as I've told you I have the poster on my wall. So I think we're gonna wrap it up, but I just wanna ask you, do you have anything else you'd like to add, or anything you'd like to plug or mention?

Rich: Kickstarter's still running at http://www.kickstarter.com, you can find it by typing in "Order of the Stick." My website's http://www.GiantITP.com, and so on and so forth.

Jesse: But I wouldn't ask you to spoil the comic even though I want to be like, "what's gonna happen next?" But I understand that would be unfair.

Rich: I am proud of you for not asking me either Vaarsuvius' gender, or what the Monster in the Darkness is, or how Belkar's gonna die. Those three questions everyone asks.

Jesse: Yeah, I figured you keep those things a secret for a reason, and it would be lost if you were to just blab it out. So I tried not to ask those.

Rich: Two of them are really important and one of them is so not important that it doesn't even need to be answered.

Jesse: Exactly.

Rich: I'll let you figure out which ones are which.

Jesse: Exactly. All right, well then I think that's all the time we have, but I would like to thank Rich Burlew one last time for being on with us.

Rich: Thank you for having me.

Jesse: Of course. I'm Jesse Baruffi.

David: And I'm David Lawrence. And you can reach us at [email protected].

Jesse: And go to our website at http://non-productive.com/geekademia. And that's it.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:08 AM
Twitter Q&As

(original transcription by ChristianSt)

All these questions were asked and answered after Strip #945.
There is minimal editing:

Capitalized the first letter of each question
Removed any Twitter-handles/RT/etc.
Bundled conversations to single Q&A points
Added "RB" / links to the tweets to mark all of Rich's answers



"Apparently, I'm answering questions or something? Huh."

We've been reading OOTS for 945 strips (plus print-only extras); isn't it time to see under the hello kitty umbrella?
RB: Nope. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435252615857709056)
Nope? lol the more time you stretch the plot on and on the more people will bore out and quit reading
RB: If it's boring you, stop reading. No hard feelings. But I'm not changing years of planning to appease anyone else at this stage. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435505281338834944)


I don't know if its ever said, but is Elan's mother still alive?
RB: Yes, absolutely. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435509412782804992)


I've always wondered....will we ever see Belkar's history?
RB: I did a short w/ some of Belkar's history for KS backers which will eventually be printed. Probably not more than that, tho. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435511257542569984)


In comic 943, is Julio's last line supposed to be "hit the head" or "hit the hay"?
RB: First one. Google, if you don't get it. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435624592309096448)


So which of the #OotS characters is you? Or any?
RB: None of them. And also, all of them. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435624949349232640)


What's the Snarl's alignment?
RB: Pulling slightly on the left front wheel. They should rotate its tires soon. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435625120241967104)


We are on 945. Don't Split the Party ended at 672. Another book in the works?
RB: Yes, but not yet. Lots of prep work to do before printing. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435625769620869121)


Was that the final panel of the book?
RB: Future unclear. Ask again tomorrow. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435626038354145281)


Is the MitD more a plaid kinda fellow or a polka dot chap?
RB: Paisley, obviously. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435626348480970752)


Any plans for another Adventure Game expansion in the somewhat near future?
RB: Near future? No. Someday? Maybe. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435626652102430720)


How long does it take to go from "Let's make an OOTS compilation" to it actually going to press?
RB: More than you'd think. Extra strips to draw, commentary to write, then a lot of strip formatting to get it ready for printing. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435627746484441088) This time, more than usual, because I have to recreate 5 strips that got eaten, then re-letter the whole book for reasons. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435628029474119680)


What's your favorite colour? And how could that possibly be connected to oots?
RB: I like every color for different reasons and in different situations, and how that applies to OOTS should be self-evident. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435628320793706498)


Are you really?
RB: Yes. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435628557360852992)


Thumb all good now?
RB: It's complicated. As good as it's getting, but there's permanent loss of mobility + feeling. I just need to work around it. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435629216206295040)


How different is the story now from what you plotted day 1?
RB: I didn't plot ANYTHING on Day 1. But once I did plot it, it's expanded or rearranged since then more than it's changed. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435629544536412160)


Which character did you have the most fun evolving for OotS?
RB: Geez, all of them. Maybe Belkar, simply because it was such a challenge. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435630000922828800)


Think you'll finish that series on world building?
RB: Probably not. But I may write something else on the topic someday. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435630122624749568)


Will the compilation book for the super-sized current arc also feature bonus strips?
RB: Yes, definitely. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435630226714800128)


What’s the snarl taste like?
RB: Acrimony. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435630594530091009)


Would you ever, at the end of the comic, make a OoTS campaig book with stats?
RB: I was working on one in 2007, then they announced 4th Ed and I shelved it. Now? Probably not. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435631006142300161)
How did the release of 4e change your mind?
RB: I was uncertain whether I was using 4e in the strip—or whether there would be a market for 3e after 4e was released. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435641196862402560)
Convert it to pathfinder & release! It's just dnd 3.75 :)
RB: Well, I only wrote like 5%, and I'd rather spend my time on fiction than game material going forward. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435643062803369984)


Any ETA on the next A Monster for Every Season?
RB: Won't start until I finish at least one more story PDF. May-ish? Maybe? (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435631324125089792)


Did you ever get that Cintaq?
RB: No; thumb injury made it less priority, since holding a pen is harder than using a mouse now. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435631753550499840)


Are you still having fun writing OOTS?
RB: Mostly, yes. It's hardest when I'm not feeling "funny" and need to think up a punchline anyway. The drama is always fun. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435632162037981185)


What percentage of the story would you estimate we've seen by now? How close are we to being done?
RB: 71.34502% (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435632537323335680)
So how much more time does that give us? Three more years? More?
RB: No less. Maybe more. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435650821959606272)


I love Redcloak. Who's your favorite villain to write?
RB: Mine too. Though Tarquin and Malack were fun, too. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435633047350697984)


You have any ideas for post oots projects as we draw to the prepenultimate section of the story
RB: Yes, many. Not all will wait that long. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435633292025405440)


Should we expect a break of a few months between the end of current arc and start of next one?
RB: Few months? No. Less. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435634018264952832)


Are you planning anything special for the 1000th OotS strip?
RB: Posting it shortly after 999 and not long before 1001, hopefully. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435634371840585729)


Do you get much chance to actually play D&D anymore?
RB: No, but that's OK. I'll likely check out 5th Ed when it's done. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435634646206779392)


What do you think of D&D Next?
RB: I've deliberately avoided it so far. I'm not planning on spending time playtesting, so I'd rather see it when it's done. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435635377219440640)


I love that you've incorporated dinosaurs on this continent. Is that something you include in your D&D world-building? How?
RB: In a sense. There are no bad monsters, only monsters you can find a niche for and those you leave for your next world. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435636422725206017)


Are there any arcs or storylines that in hindsight you wish you'd done differently in some way?
RB: I wish I hadn't left "Haley retrieves Roy's body" for the books. I wish I had broken this arc into two, so it'd be easier to print. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435636807607152640)
Where would you have split this arc?
RB: When they left the Empire, before the pyramid. But there are too many threads that go through both to split now. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435649388950462464)


When you were playing D&D, what was your favorite race/class to play? (On the occasion you weren't the DM)
RB: I was almost always DM, even stretching back to 1st Ed. But I like rogues and bards, because I like skills. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435638932164718592)


Is it easier for you to play/write for 'evil' characters or 'goodcharacters'?
RB: It's easiest to write a character with a strong set of beliefs and motivations. The exact nature of those matters less. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435640590374408192)


Any chance of Nale/Malach/Tarquin prequel book a la Start of Darkness?
RB: Yes, there's a chance. Not 100% chance, tho. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435641518041223168)


Have you painted yourself into any corners without meaning to do so? If so, where?
RB: A few times, mostly on little nitpicky stuff. Sometimes, that's why a given strip gets delayed. Can't think of any now. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435642206926295040)


Is the story still evolving/expanding, or pretty much set now?
RB: Sort of both. I'm trying to wrap up more than I add, but if there weren't room to add I would get bored before the end. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435643356761178112)
Is that why this book ended up so long?
RB: Partly. But I cut a whole battle with the LG when I was recuperating because I had too much material. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435644993655410688)
Might this battle reappear in the Print version?
RB: No, I actually like it better without. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435646383182196736)
Would this battle originally have been when the OOTS figured out who "Thog" actually was?
RB: Yes, exactly. But with ~4 months to think about it, I decided it wasn't necessary and let Elan pre-empt it in his recap song. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435648354219872257)


What do you use to draw the "Scribble" parts of the comics?
RB: Crayola crayons on bristol. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435643833691287553)


Which of your characters would you most like to hang out with?
RB: The flumphs. I trip a lot. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435646080890314752)


RB: A lot of near-duplicate questions, so if I skip yours, it may be because I already answered it. Or I'm deliberately dodging it. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435637909211725824)
I will file my pathfinder/3.75 question in this category
RB: No interest in Pathfinder. My goal is to move AWAY from being linked to any IP that I don't own, not toward a new one. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435646828290142208)


Is there a map of the OOTS world anywhere?
RB: Yes, on my hard drive. It will probably end up as bonus content in a book. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435647965999288320)


Any time table for rest of kick stater stories?
RB: As soon as I can. I want nothing more than to get them off my plate, but I can't let regular strip be any slower than it is. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435650433139216384)


What artwork in OotS have made you most pleased with the results?
RB: Mostly the recent stuff I've done for the KS. The wallpapers, and the Monster for Every Season. And the dino chase. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435651101786783744)


Did Tarquin's adventuring party have official name like Order of the Stick and Linear Guild do?
RB: Vector Legion. TWITTER CANON! (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435651746556149760)


Do you know how the KS stories are being put in print? One book or dispersed?
RB: That will depend on their length and whether or not I have a better place for any given story. So, no idea yet. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435652693353197568)


Do you actually have a set answer to "the big three" questions
RB: I might, if I knew what they were. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435652863914561536)
V's gender and The monster in the dark's identity I forget the third. oh right Belkars death
RB: Yes, I know all three. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435654459780108288)


Any ideas for projects after OOTS? Other than OOTS 2: Order Stickier, of course. :-P
RB: Many, many ideas. None that I can share now. Some are already in the works (tho shelved while I finish Kickstarter work). (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435653580473634817)


What class is Tarquin?
RB: Upper. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435653660412882945)


Was Thog KIA in his match with Roy or will there be more of him in the future? (or neither?)
RB: Those are not mutually exclusive scenarios. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435654851955945472)


Any chance of another strong lead female character joining the group in the next arch?
RB: Depends on your definition of "lead." If you mean equal to core 6, no. Otherwise, yes. One is already here. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435655752724647938)


Was there originally an intent to keep Durkon as Malach's thrall a while longer (hence, the 100 strip comment)?
RB: No, it was always intended to last only a short time. Thralls aren't interesting characters. (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/435656053493989376)




Links to other Q&As/interviews can be found in the OOTS in the Media thread.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:09 AM
This post in now in reserve, in case the Index regrows into six posts.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:33 AM
This post has been reserved in case the Index outgrows the first six posts.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:37 AM
This post has been reserved in case the Index outgrows the first six seven posts.

PREVIOUS THREADS are listed in the thread history at the bottom of the main Index posts.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 03:46 AM
Silly whitespace trimming interfering with my attempt at vertical spacing for emphasis....
OK, hurray new thread! Now where were we...Ah yes.

The tentative list is currently:



The OotS Strips in Gygax Magazine Will Be in a Collection Someday

#1020
01/22/2016
Tentative, appears will be included without vote.


Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)
Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".
#1020
01/22/2016
Tentative, appears will be eligible for vote.


On the Ephemerality of Memories from the Afterlife (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376)
Roy can remember anything that happened in the clouds, and the rest is "fuzzy" but not completely forgotten (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256).
#1022
02/08/2016
Tentative, appears will be included without vote.



That's four new quotes from the Giant there (the scroll transcription is from someone else); per thread guidelines, the next update cycle will start on March 10, unless two more quotes come up before then.

As for the current state of the ongoing debate over the quotes in that last entry....

Assessment for Afterlife Memory Tweets
PROPONENTSOPPONENTS
SniffoyGwynfrid
2.5 catsKeltest
unbeliever536Peelee
littlebum2002Cizak
snowblizzGrey_Wolf_c
pendellKalmegil
tomandtishEmanick
137benLissou
DaggerPenPyrous
Ron MielFujinAkari
ReaderAt2046Gray Mage
ORione
Zherog
Gilphon
Ruck
Porthos
Markozeta
factotum
ChristianSt
Kish
SaintRidley
Dr. Gamera
The Linker
Totals
2311
Current Disposition
INCLUDE


...I'm not convinced I'll be able to tell whether it'll be votable or not until the next update cycle starts, what with the way this keeps bouncing around the threshold between "vote-able" and "include with no chance of vote".

factotum
2016-02-24, 03:53 AM
Shouldn't I be in the "proponents" column there? I distinctly recall supporting the inclusion of these tweets in the last thread.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 04:01 AM
Shouldn't I be in the "proponents" column there? I distinctly recall supporting the inclusion of these tweets in the last thread.Huh, so you did. I don't recall seeing it before; I have to assume thinking "oh crap, I better find and post earlier suggestions for thread titles" was a distraction, since I remember Ruck's post immediately before yours and Keltest's immediately after yours. (And the possibility of these oversights is why I maintain detailed user-post lists for strongly-debated entries)

Since this was a historical oversight on my part I'll update the earlier table now....

pearl jam
2016-02-24, 04:17 AM
I'll throw my support in favor of the tweets.


As a side note, until I saw the name added to the table I had read "factotum" as "factorum" every time for years. :P

Quild
2016-02-24, 06:04 AM
I started having look at everything that listed in order to see if there were things I'm not aware of.

I think some things can be safely (or not) removed.

Characters: Items and Stats / Order of the Stick
Durkon Throws Diamond Dust - Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
This is quite covered in first panel of #845 and most users could answer if someone had a question about it.

Haley's Boots of Speed - Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
Since she used them in #979, there's now little doubt that they were dyed again.

Elan's Rapiers - He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
Maybe an "or not" one, but do we really need a quote about the fact that Elan got a rapier in #392?
I'm not even sure about what happened to it since it does not seem to be in the stuff retrieved by Roy and Belkar in #729. It's unlikely that it got lost though.
And let's not forget he got a Chaos Sabre in #943.

Also the name Zz'dtri is mispelled into Zz'Ditri's in the last part of same spoiler.


More reading later. I'm not sure such comments about existing quotes are welcome, so don't mind saying they're not!

Gwynfrid
2016-02-24, 08:05 AM
I like the smell of a new thread in the morning...

Quild, count me in on efforts to de-clutter the Index. I agree to remove the diamond dust and the boots quotes under the redundancy rule. Both are things that can easily be answered without the Index, using the comic and (in the case of diamond dust) the online D&D rules.

For the rapier, I'm not so sure. The original poster in that thread was trying to find a discontinuity in the comic, and the Giant smacked that down nicely. His answer could be figured out by somebody else, but it isn't obvious from reading the comic.

Quild
2016-02-24, 08:56 AM
For the rapier, I'm not so sure. The original poster in that thread was trying to find a discontinuity in the comic, and the Giant smacked that down nicely. His answer could be figured out by somebody else, but it isn't obvious from reading the comic.

Glad to count you in.
Thinking slightly more about it during lunch, the information about the rapier is anyway outdated because of this third rapier and because we're not sure of what happened to the second one (would be surprising that it got lost though).

But more to the point:
If you're reading the index in order to know what's in it, you're going to notice that there was no discontinuity here! But the idea of a discontinuity probably never hit your mind.
If you're reading or re-reading or re-re-reading [...] OOTS and are surprised by Elan still having a rapier at this point, you're not likely to check if this was asked in the index.
If someone is going to ask about where that rapier comes from, either someone will figure the maybe-not-obvious answer, or have in mind that it was already answered. If so, quoting the Giant is not very useful. I mean, if you know the answer, you don't need an argument of authority here.

So I'm not sure of when it's useful. But I let others be judge.

About the next spoiler:
Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
Wasn't this just a little joke from the Giant? Taking this kind of quote too seriously might be the kind of thing that upsets him.

V's Children - The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.
I understand that the index indicates what was the latest strip when the quote was made. However, it took me forever to realize that we know V's children to be adopted because of #631. For a long time, I assumed that this was not specified in comics. Maybe the little subtext could be modified in order to say
"The Giant made them adopted in 631 to leave [...]"?

Scrying in the Desert
Zz'dtri is mispelled again. (I wish I could spell it correctly myself without having to check every time).

Orrin Draketooth's Daughter - She's not Haley.
Has this ever be useful? Penelope looks nothing like Haley's mom in #772.

Yendor
2016-02-24, 09:15 AM
Orrin Draketooth's Daughter - She's not Haley.
Has this ever be useful? Penelope looks nothing like Haley's mom in #772.

There's at least half a dozen reasons why that one's ridiculous, but let's start with the one the Giant gives in that very post: Haley is not fifteen.

Pyrous
2016-02-24, 09:36 AM
I started having look at everything that listed in order to see if there were things I'm not aware of.

I think some things can be safely (or not) removed.

Characters: Items and Stats / Order of the Stick
Durkon Throws Diamond Dust - Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
This is quite covered in first panel of #845 and most users could answer if someone had a question about it.

Haley's Boots of Speed - Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
Since she used them in #979, there's now little doubt that they were dyed again.

Elan's Rapiers - He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
Maybe an "or not" one, but do we really need a quote about the fact that Elan got a rapier in #392?
I'm not even sure about what happened to it since it does not seem to be in the stuff retrieved by Roy and Belkar in #729. It's unlikely that it got lost though.
And let's not forget he got a Chaos Sabre in #943.

Also the name Zz'dtri is mispelled into Zz'Ditri's in the last part of same spoiler.


More reading later. I'm not sure such comments about existing quotes are welcome, so don't mind saying they're not!

I agree to remove these three.


[...]
About the next spoiler:
Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
Wasn't this just a little joke from the Giant? Taking this kind of quote too seriously might be the kind of thing that upsets him.


Agreed, remove it.



Orrin Draketooth's Daughter - She's not Haley.
Has this ever be useful? Penelope looks nothing like Haley's mom in #772.

Remove it. Even if it was useful at the time, this speculation will never happen again because Haley wasn't killed by familicide.

Emanick
2016-02-24, 10:20 AM
I'm for keeping the Protection from Law is Illegal quote, but I agree with all the other proposed removals.

Peelee
2016-02-24, 10:35 AM
I like the smell of a new thread in the morning...

Quild, count me in on efforts to de-clutter the Index. I agree to remove the diamond dust and the boots quotes under the redundancy rule. Both are things that can easily be answered without the Index, using the comic and (in the case of diamond dust) the online D&D rules.

For the rapier, I'm not so sure. The original poster in that thread was trying to find a discontinuity in the comic, and the Giant smacked that down nicely. His answer could be figured out by somebody else, but it isn't obvious from reading the comic.

Seconded, as usual.

Keltest
2016-02-24, 11:01 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with the de-cluttering efforts.

Ron Miel
2016-02-24, 12:26 PM
I support removing all of these.

Jaxzan Proditor
2016-02-24, 01:32 PM
Ah, it's nice to have a new thread. With regards to de-cluttering, while I agree with some of the proposed removals, I think that most of them are perfectly acceptable quotes. I would also like to add my support for the Twitter quotes under debate.

137beth
2016-02-24, 02:55 PM
And so the long* streak of banana titles has been broken. It's the end of an era.
*For like, two threads.

Mad Humanist
2016-02-24, 03:39 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with the de-cluttering efforts.

Is the proposal to simply remove the questions or simply link to appropriate strips instead of forum posts?

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 04:40 PM
Is the proposal to simply remove the questions or simply link to appropriate strips instead of forum posts?I'm going to guess the people saying entries should be removed...want entries removed. Regardless, the comic strips are not quotes by the Giant, and therefore can't sustain an entry on their own.

Throknor
2016-02-24, 04:46 PM
Opposed to all of the removals. 'Why would anyone ask that' applies to the majority of the quotes. Someone on a re-read (or a new reader) could ask any of them again when they get to those points.

Keltest
2016-02-24, 04:51 PM
Opposed to all of the removals. 'Why would anyone ask that' applies to the majority of the quotes. Someone on a re-read (or a new reader) could ask any of them again when they get to those points.

The question isn't whether someone will or will not ask about it at some point, but that the comic provides indisputable answers. Haley is not related to the Draketeeth because she did not die to Familicide (and also, she's the wrong age).

Mad Humanist
2016-02-24, 05:46 PM
I'm going to guess the people saying entries should be removed...want entries removed. Regardless, the comic strips are not quotes by the Giant, and therefore can't sustain an entry on their own.

May be someone needs to maintain an index of stupid question. A stupid question is one that is often asked but can be answered by linking to strips.

Jasdoif
2016-02-24, 06:01 PM
May be someone needs to remain an index of stupid question. A stupid question is one that is often asked but can be answered by linking to strips.If you think there's reason to have an index thread for something like Common Questions Answered by the Comic, I certainly won't stop you from making it.

Lissou
2016-02-24, 06:12 PM
I support all of the proposed removals.

Mad Humanist
2016-02-24, 06:13 PM
If you think there's reason to have an index thread for something like Common Questions Answered by the Comic, I certainly won't stop you from making it.

I've thought of doing this before. I'm not terribly enthusiastic though.

Quild
2016-02-25, 04:57 AM
Ah, it's nice to have a new thread. With regards to de-cluttering, while I agree with some of the proposed removals, I think that most of them are perfectly acceptable quotes. I would also like to add my support for the Twitter quotes under debate.

You agree with some of the proposed removals but think that most are perfectly acceptable.
Hmmm, there have been 5 proposed removals, so you agree with two but thinks that 3 have to stay? Could you be more specific? :smalltongue:


Opposed to all of the removals. 'Why would anyone ask that' applies to the majority of the quotes. Someone on a re-read (or a new reader) could ask any of them again when they get to those points.
This is not why I proposed those removals.
For four of the five, anyone can find the answer in the comics.
- The diamond dust one in 844?, well, maybe 845 wasn't up when the quote was included. Now, really, Durkon and Roy talks about it right after.
- There was a lot of discussion about if Haley had means to dye her shoes on the mechane while getting new armor. When the quote was included, word of the Giant was the only way to know she did dyed them. Now, it's unecessary.
- Elan's rapier thing, well, I think it was unecessary from the beginning. And it's outdated now. Word of the Giant is useless here.
- Protection from law: I think it's just a joke, really. You don't walk through a cop while caught red-handed because you casted protection from law. That's not what the spell does. At all. A good joke, but just a joke. A good one, ok, but would you include this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16259312&postcount=20)?
- Haley not being Orrin's daughter? The suspicion was made because of the joke about Haley being part dragon and because of the baby's hair, but we've seen Haley's mom, Haley is not fifteen, we knew afterwards that Familicide killed the Draketooth and since Penelope died, so did her daughter (it's actually because the daughter died that Penelope died), we know that Haley's dad is not Orrin either, and so on.

Fortunately or unfortunately, those quotes are the only one for which I feel we can remove them. Out of slightly less than 200 quotes I've looked at (still have the "Writing" part that I want to read).
The other quotes give us the Giant's viewpoint, sometimes some rules explanation. It answers questions for which only the writer can answer and for which there is no certainty within the comics. Without these quotes, anyone answering would just be sharing his opinion of what the Giant had in mind here, or why he did that.

At any rate, I don't think there is much to declutter, courtesy to curators.

pearl jam
2016-02-25, 06:59 AM
I don't have any idea how this idea might go over with the Giant/moderators, since it would almost certainly lead to more similar requests down the line, but it just occurred to me as I finished reading the previous post.

There seems to be a growing concern that the index as currently constituted has already become somewhat unwieldy and that the issue will only worsen as the index continues to grow, increasing the calls to remove some quotes.

The ability to sticky the current version, which of course would need staff approval, would allow us to start an "Index 2" for more recent quotes that ought to be recorded while allowing the current list to stop increasing in size.

I suspect the idea might not be popular with the staff, though, since there would likely soon be clamoring for more stickied threads crowding the top of the forum which is probably something they'd prefer not to encourage.

(I don't have any empirical evidence for this, aside from the lack of any stickied topics not begun by the Giant, himself, and just my own guess based on the way other issues are managed.)

Still, given that the Giant has expressed some direct support for at least some of the goals/content of this thread, it might not hurt to ask about it?

100% of the requests you never make will fail to be approved, after all....

I don't know. It was just something that occurred to me just now.

Mad Humanist
2016-02-25, 08:45 AM
The ability to sticky the current version, which of course would need staff approval, would allow us to start an "Index 2" for more recent quotes that ought to be recorded while allowing the current list to stop increasing in size.

I think that would create a total mess. Ideally we would want as few indexes as possible. The argument for splitting one is to make the two more manageable than they would be separately. I think there is an argument for having a thread that answers common questions whether the answer is a post from the Giant, a tweet or a comic strip. However that may be too much work. We could also easily fill the front page with sticky threads.

Jasdoif
2016-02-25, 12:11 PM
I've thought of doing this before. I'm not terribly enthusiastic though.What has you unenthused about it? Do you feel it wouldn't actually be that useful a thread to have, or are you concerned about the effort involved in creating and maintaining it?

Mad Humanist
2016-02-25, 12:25 PM
What has you unenthused about it? Do you feel it wouldn't actually be that useful a thread to have, or are you concerned about the effort involved in creating and maintaining it?

Oh definitely the effort involved. I guess I would want to adopt a similar model to this one though.

Edit: I worry specifically about burnout. Look at the latest posts on the Number of appearances thread for comparison.

littlebum2002
2016-02-25, 04:28 PM
What has you unenthused about it? Do you feel it wouldn't actually be that useful a thread to have, or are you concerned about the effort involved in creating and maintaining it?

TBH I'd probably do something like this as well, but after starting the Brick Awards I've realized how much of a pain moderating a thread is.
Thanks Jasdoif!!
Also, an extremely cumbersome, not at all practical, but effective solution to our problem would be to have the full text of every quote from Rich in the Index.

Porthos
2016-02-25, 06:05 PM
TBH I'd probably do something like this as well, but after starting the Brick Awards I've realized how much of a pain moderating a thread is.

:smallsmile:

And I thank you for the break from the Stick Awards. It's most welcome. :smalltongue:

Yeah, yeah. You'd think "once a week" isn't that big of a deal. And it isn't. At all. But week after week after week without being able to blow it off once or twice if one isn't feeling it? Yeah. Thanks for the break. :-p

Peelee
2016-02-25, 06:17 PM
TBH I'd probably do something like this as well, but after starting the Brick Awards I've realized how much of a pain moderating a thread is.

:smallsmile:

And I thank you for the break from the Stick Awards. It's most welcome. :smalltongue:

Some of us are smart enough to see laziness as its own reward without experiencing it firsthand, thankyouverymuch.

Also, I've heard white text is popular this time of year.

Jasdoif
2016-02-25, 06:55 PM
Oh definitely the effort involved.Tends to be a widespread view, it'd be nice to have but no one wants to put the effort into it. Not an uncommon concept (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1200/fv01127.htm). Still, it does leave you (and everyone else who would want it) without the thread....


I worry specifically about burnout. Look at the latest posts on the Number of appearances thread for comparison.Look at it this way: martianmister didn't start the original Number of Character Appearances thread, Porthos didn't start the original Stick Awards thread, and I didn't start the original Index of the Giant's Comments thread. Even if it does turn into something you can't keep up with, as happened to ThePhantasm, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to stop. The simple fact this project interests you enough to post here, nearly two years after I took over, should attest to that.


The initial setup is usually where the heavy lifting applies, it gets relatively easy after that. For instance, I only had to spend a night transcribing ThePhantasm's freeform text version of the Index into an XML structure of my design once, and only had to spend a morning write the XSLT that groups/sorts/bbcodes the tables and spoilers once; the ongoing part is mostly copy/paste/edit that only takes a couple minutes, tracking support or votes which can have a very slow pace (minimal effort over time), and devising titles and descriptions which is most of the fun.

And that's overkill if you're just tracking questions and comics, without needing to worry about specific dates (comics are chronologically ordered) or distinguishing posts from external URLs and stuff.


TBH I'd probably do something like this as well, but after starting the Brick Awards I've realized how much of a pain moderating a thread is.Keeping the scope in mind helps there. A thread dedicated to answering common questions by referencing comics, for example, really only needs to be updated when new common questions or new comics come along...and it's likely new questions come along when new comics along. The lack of a set time frame makes it more leisurely.

hroţila
2016-02-25, 07:09 PM
Tends to be a widespread view, it'd be nice to have but no one wants to put the effort into it. Not an uncommon concept (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1200/fv01127.htm).
I feel the idea might be best expressed thusly:
http://findercdn.com.au.s3-website-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/finder-au/wp-uploads/2015/02/cant-some1else.jpg

Peelee
2016-02-25, 10:11 PM
I feel the idea might be best expressed thusly:
http://findercdn.com.au.s3-website-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/finder-au/wp-uploads/2015/02/cant-some1else.jpg

Dammit, i shoulda thought of that.

unbeliever536
2016-02-26, 12:51 AM
Yeah. Voting for Plantain Menace not because I like it but because the other option seems to be a joke that actually puts down and belittles what this thread is and is for. It's a bad fit for this kind of thread.

On review, I think I actually...


Well.
On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index - 21
The Plantain Menace - 17
The Giant Writes Back - 2

With a margin of four and only a couple posts left for a turnaround, I don't think another two posts could change the standing....So Saner Forum etc. it is!

The Index of the Giant's Comments V - On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index (which turns out is only two characters short of hitting the character limit on thread titles) is now open! Carry on discussion what constitutes signficance quotes and/or proper(?) pronunciation of plantain over there, if you would.

Dang it.

I was about to change my vote...

Peelee
2016-02-26, 12:59 AM
Ya know, it might be worthwhile to discuss the merits of changing to an instant-runoff voting method for thread titles.

...is something i would say if i didnt have admiration and respect for the already hard work of the curator of our fruitful little corner of the boards, and wanted to burden him with a far heavier workload.

137beth
2016-02-26, 01:22 AM
The question isn't whether someone will or will not ask about it at some point, but that the comic provides indisputable answers. Haley is not related to the Draketeeth because she did not die to Familicide (and also, she's the wrong age).

The quote in the index that I think you are referring to (this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223389-OOTS-816-The-Discussion-Thread&p=12254291#post12254291)) also has the Giant state that he put in a line about Orrin's daughter's age specifically to eliminate the possibility that it was Haley. The Giant's motivation for specifying the age isn't in the comic, only the age itself. That quote is not redundant with the comic.

Jasdoif
2016-02-26, 01:36 AM
Ya know, it might be worthwhile to discuss the merits of changing to an instant-runoff voting method for thread titles.You can discuss it if you like. It wouldn't have mattered here though; "On a Saner Forum" had over half the votes, which is sufficient for IRV to declare a winner.

The more general issue, though, is that IRV (and preferential voting systems in general) need to have the set of choices defined before the vote can fairly start; I'd need to set aside extra pages to split it into multiple phases, and then do more formal voting....I don't think it'd be more convenient for anyone.

unbeliever536
2016-02-26, 01:37 AM
Ya know, it might be worthwhile to discuss the merits of changing to an instant-runoff voting method for thread titles.

...is something i would say if i didnt have admiration and respect for the already hard work of the curator of our fruitful little corner of the boards, and wanted to burden him with a far heavier workload.

Can I provide a needlessly complicated solution to this problem? Do bananas grow on trees?

Obviously we should all submit rankings of proposed titles. Then we could simply choose the Condorcet winner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_criterion), or, in its absence, allow the thread curator to select among the Condorcet non-losers. A trivial script in any number of languages could handle... I'll stop.

Although, the index title does exceed the post title limit (which is four characters less than the thread first eight posts??? title limit because life is like that...). I propose that the index be retitled to bring the main title in line with the title of the posts :smalltongue:.




TBH I'd probably do something like this as well, but after starting the Brick Awards I've realized how much of a pain moderating a thread is.
Thanks Jasdoif!!
Also, an extremely cumbersome, not at all practical, but effective solution to our problem would be to have the full text of every quote from Rich in the Index.

I ... what problem does that solve?




I started having look at everything that listed in order to see if there were things I'm not aware of.

I think some things can be safely (or not) removed.

Characters: Items and Stats / Order of the Stick
Durkon Throws Diamond Dust - Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
This is quite covered in first panel of #845 and most users could answer if someone had a question about it.

Haley's Boots of Speed - Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
Since she used them in #979, there's now little doubt that they were dyed again.

Elan's Rapiers - He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
Maybe an "or not" one, but do we really need a quote about the fact that Elan got a rapier in #392?
I'm not even sure about what happened to it since it does not seem to be in the stuff retrieved by Roy and Belkar in #729. It's unlikely that it got lost though.
And let's not forget he got a Chaos Sabre in #943.

Also the name Zz'dtri is mispelled into Zz'Ditri's in the last part of same spoiler.


More reading later. I'm not sure such comments about existing quotes are welcome, so don't mind saying they're not!

Glad to count you in.
Thinking slightly more about it during lunch, the information about the rapier is anyway outdated because of this third rapier and because we're not sure of what happened to the second one (would be surprising that it got lost though).

But more to the point:
If you're reading the index in order to know what's in it, you're going to notice that there was no discontinuity here! But the idea of a discontinuity probably never hit your mind.
If you're reading or re-reading or re-re-reading [...] OOTS and are surprised by Elan still having a rapier at this point, you're not likely to check if this was asked in the index.
If someone is going to ask about where that rapier comes from, either someone will figure the maybe-not-obvious answer, or have in mind that it was already answered. If so, quoting the Giant is not very useful. I mean, if you know the answer, you don't need an argument of authority here.

So I'm not sure of when it's useful. But I let others be judge.

About the next spoiler:
Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
Wasn't this just a little joke from the Giant? Taking this kind of quote too seriously might be the kind of thing that upsets him.

V's Children - The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.
I understand that the index indicates what was the latest strip when the quote was made. However, it took me forever to realize that we know V's children to be adopted because of #631. For a long time, I assumed that this was not specified in comics. Maybe the little subtext could be modified in order to say
"The Giant made them adopted in 631 to leave [...]"?

Scrying in the Desert
Zz'dtri is mispelled again. (I wish I could spell it correctly myself without having to check every time).

Orrin Draketooth's Daughter - She's not Haley.
Has this ever be useful? Penelope looks nothing like Haley's mom in #772.



Durkon Throws Diamond Dust
Haley's Boots of Speed
Orrin Draketooth's Daughter

Agreed. Dump these.

Elan's Rapiers

Eh. I lean against cutting it on the grounds that it's not directly addressed by the comic, but it's also not particularly interesting. No vote.

Protection from Law is Illegal

Meh. I favor keeping it, but could be argued around.

Agreed re: all proposed non-removal changes, super-duper-agreed re: mentioning the comic establishing that V's children are adopted.

Peelee
2016-02-26, 07:49 AM
You can discuss it if you like. It wouldn't have mattered here though; "On a Saner Forum" had over half the votes, which is sufficient for IRV to declare a winner.

The more general issue, though, is that IRV (and preferential voting systems in general) need to have the set of choices defined before the vote can fairly start; I'd need to set aside extra pages to split it into multiple phases, and then do more formal voting....I don't think it'd be more convenient for anyone.

I wasn't suggesting it to retcon the vote. I'm not that sore a loser.

The more general issue, though, is you deleted the punchline. That embiggens the joke, man.

Ron Miel
2016-02-26, 08:05 AM
The Index of the Giant's Comments V - On a Saner Forum, We Wouldn't Need this Index (which turns out is only two characters short of hitting the character limit on thread titles)

And as it turns out, is slightly too long anyway. Once Re: has been added, it drops ex .

Suggestion - drop the initial The from the thread title. It might fit then.

Jasdoif
2016-02-26, 04:04 PM
The more general issue, though, is you deleted the punchline. That embiggens the joke, man.Well if we're going to have a conversation on how we determine thread titles, having it before we have to determine thread titles would be prudent. This applies regardless of embiggenment of any related punchline.
And isn't making white text obvious like explaining a joke?
And as it turns out, is slightly too long anyway. Once Re: has been added, it drops ex .

Suggestion - drop the initial The from the thread title. It might fit then.Since we're able to post despite truncation, I don't think this is severe enough to constitute a problem; certainly not enough of a one to alter a chosen-by-vote title and draw attention to anyone who doesn't go back and edit the titles in their own already-existing posts.

Clearly I'll need to be more mindful of brevity with regards to future thread titles, though.

Mad Humanist
2016-02-26, 04:23 PM
Since we're able to post despite truncation, I don't think this is severe enough to constitute a problem; certainly not enough of a one to alter a chosen-by-vote title and draw attention to anyone who doesn't go back and edit the titles in their own already-existing posts.


I suspect it is trivial to fix though. You can probably fix it next time you edit the original post.

Peelee
2016-02-26, 04:55 PM
Well if we're going to have a conversation on how we determine thread titles, having it before we have to determine thread titles would be prudent. This applies regardless of embiggenment of any related punchline.


Yeah, I'd have thought you would commend me on my timeliness, since this is probably the earliest I could possibly propose this for the next time. :smalltongue:

And explaining the joke makes it better.

unbeliever536
2016-02-26, 05:08 PM
Idle question, Jasdoif:

I just noticed you've been keeping minor version numbers for the index in the OP. Are those "updates since last thread, or something else?

Jasdoif
2016-02-26, 11:54 PM
I suspect it is trivial to fix though. You can probably fix it next time you edit the original post.Going forward, sure; but extant posts would need to be edited by their authors. It isn't the ease of doing it that poses a problem for me anyway, fixing a minor truncation isn't valid justification for fixing a vote :smalltongue:


Idle question, Jasdoif:

I just noticed you've been keeping minor version numbers for the index in the OP. Are those "updates since last thread, or something else?Update cycles completed in the current thread (which I suppose aligns with "updates since last thread"). The "Latest Additions" table in the first post is keyed off the version number, so including that version number in the post seems sensible.

unbeliever536
2016-02-27, 04:04 AM
Going forward, sure; but extant posts would need to be edited by their authors.


Which is why we should just drop the -ex, obviously :smalltongue:

DaggerPen
2016-02-27, 10:33 AM
I'm in support of most of the removals but abstain with respect to Protection from Law being illegal. For all that it was a tongue in cheek comment, "Wait, why not just buy Protection from Law?" is the sort of fridge logic I could see coming up on the forums in the future, and linking the comment would be useful. It is one easily found via a comment search on the boards, though, so I abstain.

Throknor
2016-02-27, 03:08 PM
Well if we're going to have a conversation on how we determine thread titles, having it before we have to determine thread titles would be prudent. This applies regardless of embiggenment of any related punchline.
And isn't making white text obvious like explaining a joke?Since we're able to post despite truncation, I don't think this is severe enough to constitute a problem; certainly not enough of a one to alter a chosen-by-vote title and draw attention to anyone who doesn't go back and edit the titles in their own already-existing posts.

Clearly I'll need to be more mindful of brevity with regards to future thread titles, though.

Remove the spaces around the dash. Done.

Jasdoif
2016-02-27, 04:09 PM
Remove the spaces around the dash. Done.It's a fair compromise. Done.

SaintRidley
2016-02-27, 06:40 PM
Now it looks a little sloppy, like V-On is a word (a censored form of the word Vogon? I can live with censoring the Vogons and their poetry, so this isn't necessarily bad) in the title rather than a number and the beginning of a subtitle.

Jasdoif
2016-02-27, 07:32 PM
Now it looks a little sloppy, like V-On is a word (a censored form of the word Vogon? I can live with censoring the Vogons and their poetry, so this isn't necessarily bad) in the title rather than a number and the beginning of a subtitle.Well the truncation looked sloppy in the post titles before, too :smalltongue: Still, using a horizontal bar character ( ― ) rather than a standard dash character ( - ) might work better....

Lissou
2016-02-27, 09:33 PM
A colon may work as well, although a lack of space after it may look weird. The ― is looking good to me, though!

pearl jam
2016-02-28, 02:03 AM
On a saner forum, we might not worry about the fact that the thread title is truncated on replies when it doesn't break functionality? :smalltongue:

Emanick
2016-02-28, 02:05 AM
On a saner forum, we might not worry about the fact that the thread title is truncated on replies when it doesn't break functionality? :smalltongue:

I am officially nominating this to be the thread title of The Index of the Giant's Comments VI.

Peelee
2016-02-28, 10:21 AM
I am officially nominating this to be the thread title of The Index of the Giant's Comments VI.

You could nominate a fifth of it maybe.

137beth
2016-02-28, 10:53 AM
I am officially nominating this to be the thread title of The Index of the Giant's Comments VI.
If you take out the question mark and smilie, it is still 133 characters even without an RE: preppended to it. You could nominate more than half of it though.

Jasdoif
2016-02-28, 03:20 PM
I am officially nominating this to be the thread title of The Index of the Giant's Comments VI.In light of the underlying oddities, all future subtitle nominations must be 40 characters or less. The limit will likely need to be reconsidered if we get to The Index of the Giant's Comments XVIII, but I think it will work for now :smalltongue:

Gwynfrid
2016-02-28, 06:04 PM
Regarding Quild's removal suggestions, here's my take.

Durkon Throws Diamond Dust - Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
I agree we should remove it.

Haley's Boots of Speed - Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
I agree we should remove it.

Elan's Rapiers - He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
I think we should keep it. It answers a question that was asked once and might be asked again (even if that's pretty unlikely). The fact that this particular rapier no longer appears today, when the story has moved on, doesn't matter.

Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
I think we should keep it. It isn't just a joke, it answers a real question: Why Belkar didn't request a ring of Protection from Law instead?

Orrin Draketooth's Daughter - She's not Haley.
I agree we should remove it.


The quote in the index that I think you are referring to (this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?223389-OOTS-816-The-Discussion-Thread&p=12254291#post12254291)) also has the Giant state that he put in a line about Orrin's daughter's age specifically to eliminate the possibility that it was Haley. The Giant's motivation for specifying the age isn't in the comic, only the age itself. That quote is not redundant with the comic.
You are technically correct. However, this means the only non-redundant answer in this quote is to the question "why did the Giant mention Orrin's daughters's age?" This question hasn't ever been asked on the forum (as far as I know) and I believe the odds of it ever being asked are vanishingly small.

ti'esar
2016-02-28, 07:28 PM
You are technically correct. However, this means the only non-redundant answer in this quote is to the question "why did the Giant mention Orrin's daughters's age? This question hasn't ever been asked on the forum (as far as I know) and I believe the odds of it ever being asked are vanishingly small.


It may not be something anyone would probably ask - but it is still a look into the Giant's planning process, even if just on a very small level. That's worthwhile, although perhaps not that much.

Gwynfrid
2016-02-28, 07:55 PM
It may not be something anyone would probably ask - but it is still a look into the Giant's planning process, even if just on a very small level. That's worthwhile, although perhaps not that much.

That's correct, but isn't tracking the Giant's planning process a matter beyond the scope of the Index? Not to mention how it veers uncomfortably close to stalking (for me at least).

ti'esar
2016-02-28, 08:08 PM
As I understand it, what the Giant wants is that people not write down every opinion he has about anything. But how he specifically goes about writing OOTS? I thought that was a well-established part of the index.

Keltest
2016-02-28, 09:15 PM
I think using a single example to make a point about Rich's writing process is pushing it, especially because what it actually says about the process is not spelled out in the quote. To me, it says that Rich sometimes heads off questions he anticipates in advance when writing, and if that's a common consensus, I think we can agree there are quotes better disposed towards making that point.

Quild
2016-02-29, 09:05 AM
Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
I think we should keep it. It isn't just a joke, it answers a real question: Why Belkar didn't request a ring of Protection from Law instead?Belkar has poor knowledge of how this work. He asked for an item that boosts his saving throws (or rather: he was thinking that the protection would be absolute from the vest, while it's not) and when the gnome understood what he was looking after, she brought the cloak clasp up.

Now, the gnome thinks it more likely that the clasp is malfunctioning rather than Belkar being Evil. It probably wouldn't be very interesting for her to sell items that grants Protection from Law in the same goal of protection from charms while her clients are very more likely to be Lawful rather than Evil.

Maybe she has something else. But Belkar wants to hide to her the fact that he's Evil, so we won't know.

But I don't see why Protection from Law would be illegal, besides a joke. I don't even think that it protects you from the effects of a Zone of Truth.

Gwynfrid
2016-02-29, 10:19 AM
Belkar has poor knowledge of how this work. He asked for an item that boosts his saving throws (or rather: he was thinking that the protection would be absolute from the vest, while it's not) and when the gnome understood what he was looking after, she brought the cloak clasp up.

Now, the gnome thinks it more likely that the clasp is malfunctioning rather than Belkar being Evil. It probably wouldn't be very interesting for her to sell items that grants Protection from Law in the same goal of protection from charms while her clients are very more likely to be Lawful rather than Evil.

Maybe she has something else. But Belkar wants to hide to her the fact that he's Evil, so we won't know.

But I don't see why Protection from Law would be illegal, besides a joke. I don't even think that it protects you from the effects of a Zone of Truth.

Asking for Protection from Law wouldn't be the same as admitting he's Evil. But, in most of the world, you can expect police to be Lawful. Protection from Law would grant bonuses against police trying to subdue criminals whether with magical or non-magical means, so it makes sense to make it illegal. Belkar doesn't want to get in trouble by hinting he might be trying to evade law enforcement.

Peelee
2016-02-29, 10:35 AM
Asking for Protection from Law wouldn't be the same as admitting he's Evil.

I don't follow.

littlebum2002
2016-02-29, 02:34 PM
I ... what problem does that solve?


Posting the full text of every quote from Rich in the Index would solve the problem of having to find the quote using the summaries given. Instead, you could just "Show ALl Spoilers" and search for any word in the quote and find it, if it is in the Index.

Of course, this would be unbelievably complicated, for many reasons, the most noticeable of which is that the thread moderator would have to reserve the first 30 or so posts instead of the first 7


Regarding Quild's removal suggestions, here's my take.

Durkon Throws Diamond Dust - Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
I agree we should remove it.

Haley's Boots of Speed - Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
I agree we should remove it.

Elan's Rapiers - He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
I think we should keep it. It answers a question that was asked once and might be asked again (even if that's pretty unlikely). The fact that this particular rapier no longer appears today, when the story has moved on, doesn't matter.

Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
I think we should keep it. It isn't just a joke, it answers a real question: Why Belkar didn't request a ring of Protection from Law instead?

Orrin Draketooth's Daughter - She's not Haley.
I agree we should remove it.


I second every one of these


I don't follow.

Trying to do something illegal (in this case "order an illegal Protection from Law item"), doesn't necessarily make one Evil. Neutral characters can often engage in illegal activities, and Good characters can as well on occasion. For instance, I wouldn't see any harm in a Good character who is invading and trying to destroy an Evil kobold city from using Protection from Law to protect themself while doing so. Even though it is technically illegal, it is in support of a Greater Good, etc etc.

Pyrous
2016-02-29, 02:51 PM
Trying to do something illegal (in this case "order an illegal Protection from Law item"), doesn't necessarily make one Evil. Neutral characters can often engage in illegal activities, and Good characters can as well on occasion. For instance, I wouldn't see any harm in a Good character who is invading and trying to destroy an Evil kobold city from using Protection from Law to protect themself while doing so. Even though it is technically illegal, it is in support of a Greater Good, etc etc.

The point is that the gnome had more Protection from Evil clasps. If Belkar asked for a Protection from Law item instead, he would be admitting he's evil.

Peelee
2016-02-29, 05:44 PM
Trying to do something illegal (in this case "order an illegal Protection from Law item"), doesn't necessarily make one Evil. Neutral characters can often engage in illegal activities, and Good characters can as well on occasion. For instance, I wouldn't see any harm in a Good character who is invading and trying to destroy an Evil kobold city from using Protection from Law to protect themself while doing so. Even though it is technically illegal, it is in support of a Greater Good, etc etc.

Aha. I'd misread that as "would be the same as admitting he's Evil." Hence my confusion.

I am not a smart man.


The point is that the gnome had more Protection from Evil clasps. If Belkar asked for a Protection from Law item instead, he would be admitting he's evil.
Nope.

If i go to the store to get a wool jacket, and the one they gave me has a hole in it, and i say, "well, how about synthetic fibers then," it wouldn't mean I am morally opposed to leather. Doesn't matter if they had more wool coats in the back.

Jasdoif
2016-02-29, 06:09 PM
If i go to the store to get a wool jacket, and the one they gave me has a hole in it, and i say, "well, how about synthetic fibers then," it wouldn't mean I am morally opposed to leather. Doesn't matter if they had more wool coats in the back.On the other hand....If you go to the store to get a wool jacket, and you start itching when you try it on, and the salesperson says that shouldn't happen unless you're allergic to wool and offers to get another wool jacket in case that one's contaminated, and you instead say "nah, how about synthetic fibers then,"....You being allergic to wool wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume.

Lissou
2016-02-29, 06:57 PM
I don't follow.

Protection from Law can be useful for a Chaotic Good person against a Lawful Evil one. Wanting an item that offers Protection from Law does not mean that you're Evil. The two axes are completely independent from one another after all.

Peelee
2016-02-29, 07:08 PM
On the other hand....If you go to the store to get a wool jacket, and you start itching when you try it on, and the salesperson says that shouldn't happen unless you're allergic to wool and offers to get another wool jacket in case that one's contaminated, and you instead say "nah, how about synthetic fibers then,"....You being allergic to wool wouldn't be much of a stretch to assume.

True, but it wouldn't be a tacit admission. It'd be a bad idea to call an ambulance, for instance.

Not to mention that if I know i am allergic to wool, i wouldn't be asking for a wool jacket to start with.

Keltest
2016-02-29, 07:12 PM
True, but it wouldn't be a tacit admission. It'd be a bad idea to call an ambulance, for instance.

Not to mention that if I know i am allergic to wool, i wouldn't be asking for a wool jacket to start with.

I would think that it would be a bad idea to call for an ambulance even if they did flat out admit it, given that they don't appear to actually be having any sort of attack or anything. If they continue shopping, skipping the wool clothing as you guide them would not be unreasonable.

Jasdoif
2016-02-29, 07:41 PM
Not to mention that if I know i am allergic to wool, i wouldn't be asking for a wool jacket to start with.Apparently Hypothetipeelee was unaware of the wool allergy (maybe it was a late-developing allergy?), just as Belkar didn't know he'd be adversely affected by a protection from evil effect. Or maybe it was a case of the salesperson neglecting to mention the jacket was wool, but if we posit a lawsuit scenario we're not going to get an answer until the next version of the Index thread, at the earliest.

Peelee
2016-02-29, 08:18 PM
Apparently Hypothetipeelee was unaware of the wool allergy (maybe it was a late-developing allergy?), just as Belkar didn't know he'd be adversely affected by a protection from evil effect. Or maybe it was a case of the salesperson neglecting to mention the jacket was wool, but if we posit a lawsuit scenario we're not going to get an answer until the next version of the Index thread, at the earliest.

Point taken. Let's restart. If Bob asks for a Protection from Evil item, and when it malfunctions, asks for a Protection from Law item, then i doubt the salesperson would think, "aha! Bob must be Evil!"

Ruck
2016-02-29, 08:45 PM
Point taken. Let's restart. If Bob asks for a Protection from Evil item, and when it malfunctions, asks for a Protection from Law item, then i doubt the salesperson would think, "aha! Bob must be Evil!"
It's not the specifically asking for Protecting from Law, it's the following exchange:

"That Protection of Evil clasp must be broken. Let me get you a new one."
"Uhhhhh, you know what? That's okay, why don't I just try something else?"

Pyrous
2016-02-29, 09:03 PM
Point taken. Let's restart. If Bob asks for a Protection from Evil item, and when it malfunctions, asks for a Protection from Law item, then i doubt the salesperson would think, "aha! Bob must be Evil!"

Except that he didn't asked for a Protection from Evil item, he asked for a item that stops mental control. He was offered one that hurt him. This should only happen if he was Evil or if the item was malfunctioning. The gnome retrieved the item and if she tries it on herself while getting a replacement, be it another Protection from Evil, or a Protection from Law one, she would have reason to suspect Belkar was evil (chaotic evil if he asked for protection from law). Belkar was trying to avoid suspicion, and that included getting rid of the evidence. For half price.

Quild
2016-03-01, 03:56 AM
Belkar has probably no idea that a Protection from Law item would work, so there is little chance that he can think of it.
He didn't even knew that his vest wouldn't be an absolute protection.
Otherwise, Belkar would probably have asked for a Protection from Law item even knowing that it was illegal in many place (he could act surprised that it's illegal in Tinkertown).

Anyway, my point entirely was that there is no point for Protection from Law to be illegal and that I think the Giant made a joke.
Cops are Lawful? Mostly, surely, it's not an absolute (reminds me that Gotham started again yesterday).
If the point is that an item providing +2 deflection bonus to AC and +2 resistance bonus of save against most or all cops, lot of stuff you can get the same effects from, could be illegal.
Armors are illegal in Cliffport many place because cops are warriors! Also weapons. And spells, they work too. You're not allowed to get level eithers, it's dangerous!

Nope, I'm not buying it to be a serious thing about OOTS-lore.

Pyrous: I believe an Evil Neutral creature wouldn't be affected by Protection from Law either.

Kish
2016-03-01, 08:24 AM
I am not going to go to a great deal of effort to read the made-hard-to-read-for-no-reason post before this one. I am, however, going to mention a point of D&D rules that some people are likely unaware of here:

"Protection from X" renders someone immune to all mind control, regardless of the alignment of the controller. The other effects (AC bonus, save bonuses, untouchability by summoned creatures) care about alignment, but for what Belkar wanted the clasp for, it might as well have been Protection from Good.

Gwynfrid
2016-03-01, 10:56 AM
Anyway, my point entirely was that there is no point for Protection from Law to be illegal and that I think the Giant made a joke.

We can second-guess the Giant, but it's always going to be inconclusive. To the question, why did Belkar not ask for a Protection from Law item, there are (at least) two possible answers: #1 because Belkar didn't know any better, or #2 because he didn't want to ask for something illegal. The original poster suggested the answer is #1. Then Rich posted to say the answer is #2. Joke or no joke, this is a valid answer. We have no reason to dismiss it.

Peelee
2016-03-01, 11:55 AM
We can second-guess the Giant, but it's always going to be inconclusive.

I firmly believe it's a joke, but I can't argue against this.

Pyrous
2016-03-01, 12:39 PM
I was going to make one last argument for exclusion, but it's a good joke and I won't be bothered if we keep it in the index.

littlebum2002
2016-03-01, 02:08 PM
I agree it may be silly for Protection from Law to be illegal, but that's the word we have on the canon so it's the best we've got.

TBH, the various "protection" spells are so similar I never really understood why they are different spells in the first place. I mean the majority of the utility from the spells comes from the parts which are the same, the "AC bonus and save bonus for certain alignments" helps, but isn't really interesting enough to justify having 4 separate spells.

Kish
2016-03-01, 02:28 PM
I think you greatly underestimate the number of players who would (and do) cast Protection from Evil with no expectation of mind control being a serious possibility.

Dunsparce
2016-03-01, 02:52 PM
I agree it may be silly for Protection from Law to be illegal, but that's the word we have on the canon so it's the best we've got.

TBH, the various "protection" spells are so similar I never really understood why they are different spells in the first place. I mean the majority of the utility from the spells comes from the parts which are the same, the "AC bonus and save bonus for certain alignments" helps, but isn't really interesting enough to justify having 4 separate spells.

That's nothing, The 3.5 Forgotten Realms book Shining South had a variant called Protection from Winged Flyers. Basically Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos but against anything with both wings and a fly speed.

Emanick
2016-03-02, 02:40 AM
We can second-guess the Giant, but it's always going to be inconclusive. To the question, why did Belkar not ask for a Protection from Law item, there are (at least) two possible answers: #1 because Belkar didn't know any better, or #2 because he didn't want to ask for something illegal. The original poster suggested the answer is #1. Then Rich posted to say the answer is #2. Joke or no joke, this is a valid answer. We have no reason to dismiss it.

Yeah, I too think it's a valid answer and should be kept. The other comments on the cutting board, I'm in favor of jettisoning.

Jay R
2016-03-02, 12:25 PM
I agree it may be silly for Protection from Law to be illegal, but that's the word we have on the canon so it's the best we've got.

It makes perfect sense to me that interfering with the law should be against the law.

It's not good to use Protection from Good.
It's not evil to use Protection from Evil.
It's not chaotic to use Protection from Chaos.
It's not lawful to use Protection from Law.

Keltest
2016-03-02, 12:48 PM
It makes perfect sense to me that interfering with the law should be against the law.

It's not good to use Protection from Good.
It's not evil to use Protection from Evil.
It's not chaotic to use Protection from Chaos.
It's not lawful to use Protection from Law.

Being lawful is not the same thing as obeying the law, and many evil being use Protection from Evil to summon fiends and not get ripped apart by them.

It seems clear to me its a joke, and while I cant argue against the idea that its the only word we have on the subject, I don't think we need any word on it either.

Peelee
2016-03-02, 12:59 PM
I don't know why it wasn't just called Order instead of Law.

Keltest
2016-03-02, 01:07 PM
I don't know why it wasn't just called Order instead of Law.

Blame Law and Order.

Pyrous
2016-03-02, 01:39 PM
I don't know why it wasn't just called Order instead of Law.

It would certainly be better. Would you rather read a comic called The Order of the Stick, or one called The Law of the Stick?

Peelee
2016-03-02, 02:30 PM
Blame Law and Order.

I could see a character worshipping Lenny Briscoe or Hang 'Em High McCoy.

Jasdoif
2016-03-02, 03:14 PM
OK. Let's see, memory-from-the-afterlife (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376) tweets (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256)....


Assessment for Afterlife Memory Tweets
PROPONENTSOPPONENTS
SniffoyGwynfrid
2.5 catsKeltest
unbeliever536Peelee
littlebum2002Cizak
snowblizzGrey_Wolf_c
pendellKalmegil
tomandtishEmanick
137benLissou
DaggerPenPyrous
Ron MielFujinAkari
ReaderAt2046Gray Mage
ORione
Zherog
Gilphon
Ruck
Porthos
Markozeta
factotum
ChristianSt
Kish
SaintRidley
Dr. Gamera
The Linker
pearl jam
Jaxzan Proditor
Totals
2511
Current Disposition
INCLUDE


So that still looks like it's outside of having a vote called on it.

That means the tentative list is still:



The OotS Strips in Gygax Magazine Will Be in a Collection Someday

#1020
01/22/2016
Tentative, appears will be included without vote.


Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)
Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".
#1020
01/22/2016
Tentative, appears will be eligible for vote.


On the Ephemerality of Memories from the Afterlife (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376)
Roy can remember anything that happened in the clouds, and the rest is "fuzzy" but not completely forgotten (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256).
#1022
02/08/2016
Tentative, appears will be included without vote.



So unless things change in eight days, that's what the update cycle will be working on.

As for proposed deletions, looks like a definite trend towards removal (the Protection from Law entry is the highest right in retention support right now, at 50/50), so I better list them:

Entries Suggested for Removal

Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places

#969
12/01/2014


V's Children
The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian.
#882
04/09/2013


Durkon Throws Diamond Dust
Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
#844
03/09/2012


Orrin Draketooth's Daughter
She's not Haley.
#816
11/21/2011


Haley's Boots of Speed
Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
#793
05/29/2011


Elan's Rapiers
He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
#723
05/13/2010



With an update cycle so close, I don't think it's wise to get to removals until after that's taken care of.

Which, incidentally, means if anyone wants removal procedures codified, now's the time to bring it up (again).

TBH, the various "protection" spells are so similar I never really understood why they are different spells in the first place. I mean the majority of the utility from the spells comes from the parts which are the same, the "AC bonus and save bonus for certain alignments" helps, but isn't really interesting enough to justify having 4 separate spells.Clerics can't cast spells with alignments opposed to their own or their deity's. An evil cleric, or a neutral cleric of an evil deity, can't cast protection from evil because it's a Good spell.

I presume having a single protection from alignment spell with text like "when you use this spell to protect against good, evil, law or chaos; it is a spell of its opposite type (a good spell when used to protect against evil, and so forth)", and then expecting people to remember the alignment restriction at that time, was deemed too complicated in wording for the core rulebook.

Or maybe they thought it'd be too advantageous to have access to the full set (a neutral cleric of a neutral deity, a neutral cleric with no deity, or any sorcerer/wizard) with a single spell? Hard to tell.


I could see a character worshipping Lenny Briscoe or Hang 'Em High McCoy.Briscoe, McCoy and Carmichael form a pantheon by themselves.

Rodin
2016-03-02, 08:29 PM
I didn't realize the "V's Children are adopted" quote was up for removal. I firmly oppose that one being removed.

A) It's non-obvious that's why he did it...or at least, I didn't know it until Word of Giant came down and found it interesting at the time.

B) It's not something that can be answered in-comic or by referring to a particular page.

C) It's about the writing process, which firmly places it in "relevant" territory.

D) Did I mention it's really interesting?

E) The original proposal was not to remove, but to modify the index entry to make it clear that V's kids are stated to be adopted in-comic, and the quote is clarifying the writing process. I haven't seen anyone specifically say they want it removed (although paging through 4 pages of posts makes it easy to miss something...my respect for our illustrious banana grows).

Peelee
2016-03-02, 08:46 PM
D) Did I mention it's really interesting?

I realize Rule C was rescinded, but is "that's really interesting" a good reason to include and/oor not remove?

Jasdoif
2016-03-02, 09:09 PM
The original proposal was not to remove, but to modify the index entry to make it clear that V's kids are stated to be adopted in-comic, and the quote is clarifying the writing process. I haven't seen anyone specifically say they want it removed (although paging through 4 pages of posts makes it easy to miss something...my respect for our illustrious banana grows).Hmm, I missed that part in Quild's post. Well, let me see what's left here....


I support removing all of these.The entry for Vaarsuvius' children had been mentioned at that point, so I'd have to consider this a proposed removal....


I support all of the proposed removals.

I'm in support of most of the removals but abstain with respect to Protection from Law being illegal.
...so I'd have to consider those later posts in favor of removal of it as well.


That would put you (Rodin) and Throknor in favor of keeping it after the removal was proposed. Two for keeping and three for removing still warrants getting it listed, I think.
In any case, I don't intend to remove any entries without a vote on the individual entries to be removed; so if I am grossly misreading the situation it'll become apparent during the vote, before any removal could occur.



And, as the one who decides on the entry descriptions...I don't see what advantage mentioning 631 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html) is supposed to have. Vaarsuvius mentions the children are adopted with nothing more than an adjective, in the style of saying something that needs to be taken at face value...just as the quote does (and the entry's description, for that matter). It fails to qualify as a supplementary reference on account of the comic having nothing to add to what the quote already says.

Gwynfrid
2016-03-02, 09:53 PM
Hmm, I missed that part in Quild's post. Well, let me see what's left here....

I didn't read Quild's point about the adopted children quote as a proposal to remove, and I don't see any reason why we would want to get rid of it. It's just to avoid such ambiguity that I listed Quild's suggestions for removal one by one, when expressing support.


And, as the one who decides on the entry descriptions...I don't see what advantage mentioning 631 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html) is supposed to have. Vaarsuvius mentions the children are adopted with nothing more than an adjective, in the style of saying something that needs to be taken at face value...just as the quote does (and the entry's description, for that matter). It fails to qualify as a supplementary reference on account of the comic having nothing to add to what the quote already says.
I agree. There's no need to change anything here.

Rodin
2016-03-02, 11:27 PM
I realize Rule C was rescinded, but is "that's really interesting" a good reason to include and/oor not remove?

While not sufficient on its own, I certainly feel that it gives additional weight to whether a quote should be kept or not. Given that it clearly qualifies for several other reasons (see original post), the only reason not to keep it would be if it were a small bit of trivia that nobody was likely to want/need in future. Statements of authorial intent like the quote are both neat to know and useful for future debates involving V's family, gender roles in OOTS, discussions of V's gender...yadda yadda.

137beth
2016-03-03, 02:06 AM
I didn't realize the "V's Children are adopted" quote was up for removal. I firmly oppose that one being removed.

A) It's non-obvious that's why he did it...or at least, I didn't know it until Word of Giant came down and found it interesting at the time.

B) It's not something that can be answered in-comic or by referring to a particular page.

C) It's about the writing process, which firmly places it in "relevant" territory.

D) Did I mention it's really interesting?

E) The original proposal was not to remove, but to modify the index entry to make it clear that V's kids are stated to be adopted in-comic, and the quote is clarifying the writing process. I haven't seen anyone specifically say they want it removed (although paging through 4 pages of posts makes it easy to miss something...my respect for our illustrious banana grows).

I agree with all of these reasons except (d). While I do think it's really interesting, I don't think that alone is a worthy enough reason for inclusion. However, reasons (a), (b), (c), and (e) are all enough to convince me to oppose removing this quote.

unbeliever536
2016-03-03, 02:10 AM
if anyone wants removal procedures codified, now's the time to bring it up (again).


Hiya!

I think the following should be the case:

-The current rules (or at least the procedure for adding quotes) should be modified to refer to entries. Mostly, we should update when six new, edited, or removed entries are up for consideration, rather than at six new quotes.
-Removals of and edits to entries should be treated exactly like additions to the index, with the same biasing towards the index changing. That is, a removal needs middle-third support lack of clear consensus to be up for a vote, and two positive votes in favor of removal for it to actually go through. Same with edits.




Two for keeping and three for removing still warrants getting it listed, I think.


I thought I was clear that I supported editing the entry, not deleting it. Did you miss my post?



And, as the one who decides on the entry descriptions...I don't see what advantage mentioning 631 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0631.html) is supposed to have. Vaarsuvius mentions the children are adopted with nothing more than an adjective, in the style of saying something that needs to be taken at face value...just as the quote does (and the entry's description, for that matter). It fails to qualify as a supplementary reference on account of the comic having nothing to add to what the quote already says.

The quote is about that specific comic, though. Any reason the reader might have for looking up a comic as relates to that quote (such as, for example, the one Quild gives), they want comic #631, not #882, which doesn't even mention Vaarsuvius, much less the kids. If that's not a good enough reason for a supplementary reference, it should be.

Jasdoif
2016-03-03, 03:03 AM
The current rules (or at least the procedure for adding quotes) should be modified to refer to entries. Mostly, we should update when six new, edited, or removed entries are up for consideration, rather than at six new quotes.Feels too mutable for my tastes; an update cycle could be triggered if we get consensus to include quotes before a consolidation of multiple quotes into a single entry gets consensus. I like the stability of using criteria independent of the thread (atomic distinct posts/tweets by the Giant).


Removals of and edits to entries should be treated exactly like additions to the index, with the same biasing towards the index changing. That is, a removal needs middle-third support lack of clear consensus to be up for a vote, and two positive votes in favor of removal for it to actually go through. Same with edits.I don't recall anyone having a problem with editing procedure before. Why do you think introducing such a change for edits is warranted?

I'm also curious why you'd want a path to remove entries without a vote.


I thought I was clear that I supported editing the entry, not deleting it. Did you miss my post?No, you were clear that you supported editing the entry...but "super-duper-agreed re: mentioning the comic establishing that V's children are adopted" doesn't really distinguish between "we should keep and edit it" and "we should edit it if we keep it", so I didn't count it.

This post, on the other hand, seems clear in favor of keeping it. So noted.


The quote is about that specific comic, though.No, it's not. The quote is about Vaarsuvius' children.

Quild
2016-03-03, 03:25 AM
I didn't read Quild's point about the adopted children quote as a proposal to remove.

Tbh, me neither :smallbiggrin:


No, it's not. The quote is about Vaarsuvius' children.
Right. But the Giant made V's children adopted in #631 (and as far as I know, in #631 only, it's not even reminded in #678). Back in 2009.

Some 4 years and 251 comics laters, the Giant say something about the importance of that adjective in that specific comic.
Now, before reading this quote I had somehow missed that V's children where adopted even if I've read the comics several times. And the index only points me to #882 (which was up when the Giant made this remark). And I've been unable to understand why he says V's children were adopted for months. Really. And I've searched.
One day, reading back the soul-selling thing, I finally saw it!

This quote comes so long after what it refers to, that I think it should be clarified. I do realize it's unusual for the index to work that way.

Jasdoif
2016-03-03, 03:39 AM
Right. But the Giant made V's children adopted in #631 (and as far as I know, in #631 only, it's not even reminded in #678). Back in 2009.

Some 4 years and 251 comics laters, the Giant say something about the importance of that adjective in that specific comic.
Now, before reading this quote I had somehow missed that V's children where adopted even if I've read the comics several times. And the index only points me to #882 (which was up when the Giant made this remark). And I've been unable to understand why he says V's children were adopted for months. Really. And I've searched.
One day, reading back the soul-selling thing, I finally saw it!

This quote comes so long after what it refers to, that I think it should be clarified. I do realize it's unusual for the index to work that way.It's straightforward, really: He said Vaarsuvius' children were adopted because Vaarsuvius' children were adopted. Just like 631 shows Vaarsuvius saying Vaarsuvius' children were adopted because Vaarsuvius' children were adopted. There's nothing to be found in 631 that can't be found in the quote itself.

unbeliever536
2016-03-03, 04:11 AM
Feels too mutable for my tastes; an update cycle could be triggered if we get consensus to include quotes before a consolidation of multiple quotes into a single entry gets consensus. I like the stability of using criteria independent of the thread (atomic distinct posts/tweets by the Giant).

I don't recall anyone having a problem with editing procedure before. Why do you think introducing such a change for edits is warranted?

I'm also curious why you'd want a path to remove entries without a vote.


As it is, we can get update cycles before we have consensus on how to actually do the update. Or at least that's how it feels to me; not sure what other people think (obviously you don't feel this way or you wouldn't update :smalltongue:).

I also feel that this thread operates mostly on entries, rather than quotes. We present entries, some of which point to a single quote and some of which point to a headline quote with additional relevant/supporting quotes. The number of entries also seem (to me) like the best measure of clutter in the index - if we have a bunch of see also's on a particular entry, maybe it's harder to distinguish one from the other, but not if they're described in the link (which they should be, to justify/explain their inclusion), but if we have a lot of additional entries, it becomes hard to navigate the index at all.

Because of that focus on entries, it's always looked weird to me when we get update cycles with only four or even three entries up for consideration. Adding an entry pretty much the same no matter how many links it has, so each one represents about the same amount of change to the index. In my ideal world, it would work like this: when the Index would change substantially (arbitrarly defined as six entries changing state), we go through the formal update process and note that it's happening. Otherwise, changes happen every two months to keep things up to date.

The structure for entry deletion follows from that. From there, adding the edits is also a natural thing, especially when dealing with "see also" quotes (to be added or deleted). That said, I don't have a problem with how that's gone in the past and wouldn't support formalizing just the editing procedure. It makes little sense to formalize it without doing the same for deletion, and none at all without the refocus to entries rather than quotes. A "quick edit" clause for things like spelling/grammar correction would be perfectly reasonable if that goes through, though.

As far as removal potential is concerned, clear consensus is clear consensus, and not filling up the thread with Yes posts is a good plan. You are, quite frankly, an excellent curator, and any successor you have would almost certainly follow your example; I'd be very surprised to see that sort of power used to genuinely stifle discussion. After all, the quote can always be re-proposed if it comes up again. Plus, keeping things parallel seems like the best way to ensure that the index reflects the thread's current collective desires, rather than the collective desires of the entire thread over the four-ish years since it began. I wouldn't support a dictator clause in parallel with the one for adding quotes, as that would allow a suddenly-hostile curator to do serious damage to the index. (Not that I believe our current banana will ever go rotten, of course)

(for the record, I'm don't in general favor of tracking literally everything, though I think I may come off as such some times. As I said last thread, I treat the Index as a "state of canon" regarding the comic, and sometimes as a tool for understanding the same. Some things in or proposed for the index aren't really relevant to someone interested in understanding what is or is not true about OOTS and its world)



No, you were clear that you supported editing the entry...but "super-duper-agreed re: mentioning the comic establishing that V's children are adopted" doesn't really distinguish between "we should keep and edit it" and "we should edit it if we keep it", so I didn't count it.


Point.

Although, it has just occurred to me that the Zz'dtri scrying entry is almost totally redundant with the comic since #801 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html), when Nale mentions that he knows the Order was off in the desert. So I'd like to change my vote there from "edit" to "delete, but edit if keeping" :smalltongue:



No, it's not. The quote is about Vaarsuvius' children.

It is about Vaarsuvius's children, but specifically it's about why the Giant chose to write them as adopted children. That is, why the Giant chose to write V's line in #631 the way he did.

edit: if the quote is just about the fact that Vaarsuvius's children are adopted, then it's clearly redundant (with comic #631, from 251 pages and four years before the comment). But it's not, because it's also about why they're adopted. Everyone in that conversation knows V's kids are adopted (the poster the Giant is replying to mentioned the possibility of V not being straight as a good thing); the only reason for the Giant to comment at all is to say why he made that decision. There is no extra information to be found in #631, but we provide comic numbers for context. In this case, the context is in #631, not #882.

Quild
2016-03-03, 05:00 AM
It's straightforward, really: He said Vaarsuvius' children were adopted because Vaarsuvius' children were adopted. Just like 631 shows Vaarsuvius saying Vaarsuvius' children were adopted because Vaarsuvius' children were adopted. There's nothing to be found in 631 that can't be found in the quote itself.

It wasn't that straightforward for me.

The way I read it, the poster to whom the Giant answered with this quote did not realize that V's children were adopted and that what he was looking for (subtle possible representatation rather that hamfisted and plot-induced one) was already here.

The Giant made the comment that V's children were adopted in that exact purpose.

Reading that comment, I wondered myself where it was stated that V's Children were adopted. In the index, the quote directs to a comic page that absolutely do not answer that question.

Of course, the answer is in comics and I'm not willing to put in the index things that are answered in the comics.
But since the quote is here to stay because it is an interesting one I think it should be less confusing and even helpful about what it refers to. My suggestion is simply to replace:
"The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian."
by:
"The Giant made them adopted in 631 to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian."

I think that my point is clear enough now and that I don't have much more to say about it :). As far as I'm concerned, your work, your call. I now know where it was stated in a first place anyway.

Keltest
2016-03-03, 06:22 AM
It wasn't that straightforward for me.

The way I read it, the poster to whom the Giant answered with this quote did not realize that V's children were adopted and that what he was looking for (subtle possible representatation rather that hamfisted and plot-induced one) was already here.

The Giant made the comment that V's children were adopted in that exact purpose.

Reading that comment, I wondered myself where it was stated that V's Children were adopted. In the index, the quote directs to a comic page that absolutely do not answer that question.

Of course, the answer is in comics and I'm not willing to put in the index things that are answered in the comics.
But since the quote is here to stay because it is an interesting one I think it should be less confusing and even helpful about what it refers to. My suggestion is simply to replace:
"The Giant made them adopted to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian."
by:
"The Giant made them adopted in 631 to leave open the possibility that V/Inkyrius are gay or lesbian."

I think that my point is clear enough now and that I don't have much more to say about it :). As far as I'm concerned, your work, your call. I now know where it was stated in a first place anyway.

Im not sure how that reduces any confusion, if only because there isn't likely to be confusion in the first place. The quote flat out says theyre adopted. That establishes the entire context needed to understand everything else in it. From there the quote further explains some of the logical implications of their being adopted. You don't need to see the comic where it was stated theyre adopted to understand the quote at all.

Lissou
2016-03-03, 06:27 AM
In my opinion, the fact that V's children are adopted was established by #629, not #631, when we see that the kid are a different race than either their parents. To me, V mentioning that the kids were adopted was pretty redundant... and I find this quote confusing anyways. I've always understood "progeny" to mean specifically genetic children, so "adopted progeny" rings very oddly to me, close to an oxymoron (you can adopt someone who is genetically related to you, I guess, but usually the people you adopt aren't).

At any rate, the word does appear in the comic, so if the skin color being completely different isn't enough for people who ask, we can direct them to that comic, which means the quote is, in my opinion, not extremely useful. It seems to me to be very similar to "The giant made the kid 15 so that she couldn't be Haley". It only explains the reasoning behind a detail of the story, and in this case it's even less useful because that reasoning could be deduced easily. I understood it when #629 came out, and Inkurius was androgynous too, like V, and the kids, who looked adopted (and also androgynous), called their parents "Parent" and "Other Parent". It's clear to me that none of the genders of the family are specified.

So yes, I do support removing that quote altogether.

Quild
2016-03-03, 08:10 AM
The quote flat out says theyre adopted.
That's my problem actually.
The way the entry is made, is looks like the quote is self-sufficient and doesn't refer to anything.

The quote about Hinjo being red-green color-blind is a direct response to a guy saying that if a color-blind character was to be introduced, it should serve the story.
The Giant threw that quite gratuitous answer. It's not the first nor the last time that he reacts that way to some (usually stupid) comments he doesn't like about his writing.

The one about V is very different. The Giant put that in the comics 4 years ago. It wasn't, as far as I know, a response to anything. It's subtle, I don't think it raised comments about it to be "forced" like some other things did (Bandana for instance).
But the quotes makes it looks like the Hinjo thing in a way.


when we see that the kid are a different race than either their parents
They look elvish to me :smallconfused:
Now it never occurred to me until right now, that two white elves should have white kids.
I look even less than usual at character's skin color in fiction. It took me some years to realize that Roy was supposed to be black and I only realized that Durkon was "non-white" by reading the quote about it. So... I've been entirely unaware that they hadn't the same skin color that their parents.

Gwynfrid
2016-03-03, 09:10 AM
As it is, we can get update cycles before we have consensus on how to actually do the update. Or at least that's how it feels to me; not sure what other people think (obviously you don't feel this way or you wouldn't update :smalltongue:).

What rules there are about the update cycle are primarily useful to the curator, not so much for thread contributors. The point is to ensure the curating work for an update doesn't become overwhelming due to sheer volume of quotes and opinions to be counted (as it would be, if updates were once a year for example) or too much relative to added index content value (as it would be, if updates were at each new quote). The balance was found by Jasdoif and I recommend we leave this matter to his fruity wisdom.

In the same vein, I don't think we need rules about edits at all. Debates about the wording of quotes are rare and, generally, folks have been content to leave most of the wording to Jasdoif. We can resolve what few disputes there are in an ad hoc manner.

Rules for deletion were proposed in the past and we didn't reach consensus. I think we agreed deletions were rare enough that it's not a huge deal. If you feel it's important, then please propose a self-contained rule (not one that refers to existing rules, that's hard to parse). Also, I recommend that we deal with deletions in completely separate votes, not merging with additions of new quotes. This will avoid confusion.



They look elvish to me :smallconfused:
Now it never occurred to me until right now, that two white elves should have white kids.
I look even less than usual at character's skin color in fiction. It took me some years to realize that Roy was supposed to be black and I only realized that Durkon was "non-white" by reading the quote about it. So... I've been entirely unaware that they hadn't the same skin color that their parents.

Me too - I'll add that to the list of Things I Never Noticed Before. Also, in this world, the term "race" refers to elves, dwarves, humans etc., not skin color, as far as I can understand.

Grey_Wolf_c
2016-03-03, 09:43 AM
Me too - I'll add that to the list of Things I Never Noticed Before. Also, in this world, the term "race" refers to elves, dwarves, humans etc., not skin color, as far as I can understand.

This Pratchett quote is surprisingly accurate to OotS:
“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because - what with trolls and dwarfs and so on - speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.”
~Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad

GW

littlebum2002
2016-03-03, 09:51 AM
I will third the notion that I had no idea the children were a different skin color than their parents. Also that this quote should remain.

Since I also enjoy proposing rules that would make Jasdoif's life more difficult, I also propose having a "strong support / weak support / weak oppose / strong oppose" system like Wikipedia does.

I don't actually propose it of course, just something I was thinking about.



This Pratchett quote is surprisingly accurate to OotS:
“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because - what with trolls and dwarfs and so on - speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.”
~Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad

GW

I find it very curious that Rich never read Pratchett, since so much of his comic mirrors that world. I mean Redcloak basically said this exact same thing using slightly different words, and the deities in this world seem to operate on a very similar "more followers=more power" system as the Discworld deities do.

Kish
2016-03-03, 11:16 AM
That's why he hasn't read it, he said; he's consciously avoiding it while he's still writing OotS because he's concerned it's too similar to what he's writing and would bleed over into OotS.

I oppose any decisions here being made out of a desire to accommodate the "wah why did Bandana mention having a female ex hamfisted lesbianism in my face" crowd. It's both pointless and unrelated to the purpose of the Index. Of all the things Rich says about OotS that we do not record, surely him pointing out a single word that is in the comic is more obviously expendable than almost any other.

(This does not address the debate over whether to include Rich's statements of why he had them be adopted, but strictly the argument that the specific comic where Vaarsuvius says they are adopted should be highlighted.)

factotum
2016-03-03, 11:34 AM
the deities in this world seem to operate on a very similar "more followers=more power" system as the Discworld deities do.

I'm pretty sure the idea that number of worshippers = power existed a long time before Pratchett wrote Pyramids, which is where that idea first appeared in the Discworld milieu as far as I know. Heck, for all we know he played Populous and got the idea from that (the game came out the same year as the book did).

Jasdoif
2016-03-03, 01:23 PM
It is about Vaarsuvius's children, but specifically it's about why the Giant chose to write them as adopted children. That is, why the Giant chose to write V's line in #631 the way he did.Right. Both the quote and the adjective in #631 stem from the Giant's decision to write them as adopted children; the quote and comic have a shared dependency, not an interdependency.


if the quote is just about the fact that Vaarsuvius's children are adopted, then it's clearly redundant (with comic #631, from 251 pages and four years before the comment).Since the comic isn't in the Index, there would be no redundancy in the Index regardless.


There is no extra information to be found in #631, but we provide comic numbers for context. In this case, the context is in #631, not #882.The date, from which the comic is derived, is provided so in case of an issue with Rule D (an apparent contradiction between quotes means only the most recent one should be included), it's immediately clear which one is most recent.

Also, if the redundancy rules are ever rescinded (in which case I hope SaintRidley provides us with cakes), the timeline on evolving views will be readily apparent as well.


That's my problem actually.
The way the entry is made, is looks like the quote is self-sufficient and doesn't refer to anything.

The quote about Hinjo being red-green color-blind is a direct response to a guy saying that if a color-blind character was to be introduced, it should serve the story.
The Giant threw that quite gratuitous answer. It's not the first nor the last time that he reacts that way to some (usually stupid) comments he doesn't like about his writing.

The one about V is very different. The Giant put that in the comics 4 years ago. It wasn't, as far as I know, a response to anything. It's subtle, I don't think it raised comments about it to be "forced" like some other things did (Bandana for instance).
But the quotes makes it looks like the Hinjo thing in a way.I know Mad Humanist balked at the possible effort involved, but have you considered starting a "Questions Answered by the Comic" thread? Your list of proposed removals seems like it'd make a good starting point, and your apparent desire to identify comic strips as original sources would be critical in such a thread.

Peelee
2016-03-03, 01:46 PM
What if we have a schism, and split into two Indices, one Orthodox Index, and one Index Reformation of 2016?

Jasdoif
2016-03-03, 02:14 PM
What if we have a schism, and split into two Indeces, one Orthodox Index, and one Index Reformation of 2016?I think you'd have to deal with a schism between Indexes and Indeces.

littlebum2002
2016-03-03, 02:33 PM
Well, if the Brick Awards end and no one has started it yet, I'll create one.

Murk
2016-03-03, 04:28 PM
What if we have a schism, and split into two Indices, one Orthodox Index, and one Index Reformation of 2016?

I once suggested such a thing, and I was kindly reminded that this was not to be done - it's the entire purpose of the "curated threads". To prevent the forum from being cluttered by countless of "Murks Index of the Giant comments" and "Peelee's Index of the Giant's comments" and "Banana Index of the Giant's comments" (etc.), there was to be a curator who could middle between all the different people and make sure all these people could find their wishes in one single thread.

Now, I think a "evidence from the comic to answer questions"-thread is different enough from this one to exist. An Orthodox and Reformed Index, though, probably wouldn't.

137beth
2016-03-03, 04:45 PM
What if we have a schism, and split into two Indices, one Orthodox Index, and one Index Reformation of 2016?
But which one gives free espresso? And is there a money-back guarantee if we aren't satisfied?

Peelee
2016-03-03, 04:48 PM
I once suggested such a thing, and I was kindly reminded that this was not to be done - it's the entire purpose of the "curated threads". To prevent the forum from being cluttered by countless of "Murks Index of the Giant comments" and "Peelee's Index of the Giant's comments" and "Banana Index of the Giant's comments" (etc.), there was to be a curator who could middle between all the different people and make sure all these people could find their wishes in one single thread.

Now, I think a "evidence from the comic to answer questions"-thread is different enough from this one to exist. An Orthodox and Reformed Index, though, probably wouldn't.

Err....it was a joke.

Peelee
2016-03-03, 04:49 PM
But which one gives free espresso? And is there a money-back guarantee if we aren't satisfied?

Espresso is prohibited by the Reformation of 2016, but given freely by Orthodox. And both offer a full refund, and will even price-match for other indices.

Quild
2016-03-03, 06:17 PM
I know Mad Humanist balked at the possible effort involved, but have you considered starting a "Questions Answered by the Comic" thread? Your list of proposed removals seems like it'd make a good starting point, and your apparent desire to identify comic strips as original sources would be critical in such a thread.

Wouldn't the fact that I proposed to remove some quotes that are answered in the comics something against me being a suitable curator for such thread? :smallconfused:
I'm willing (suggesting) to identify the original strip source for this quote only because I find it quite unique how it's discussed about some 4 years later without specification.
Other quotes usually either discuss of something that happened in the last comic posted (so the identification is already done) or are about something quite recurring.

Now that's merely a suggestion and I do feel like I put already too much effort explaining why I was making it. Meaning that it may look like I'm trying to enforce it, which is not at all the way I want to do things.

Jasdoif
2016-03-03, 06:32 PM
...have you considered starting a "Questions Answered by the Comic" thread?Wouldn't the fact that I proposed to remove some quotes that are answered in the comics something against me being a suitable curator for such thread? :smallconfused:No....Why would it? :smallconfused:

Pyrous
2016-03-03, 06:48 PM
Wouldn't the fact that I proposed to remove some quotes that are answered in the comics something against me being a suitable curator for such thread? :smallconfused:
I'm willing (suggesting) to identify the original strip source for this quote only because I find it quite unique how it's discussed about some 4 years later without specification.
Other quotes usually either discuss of something that happened in the last comic posted (so the identification is already done) or are about something quite recurring.

Now that's merely a suggestion and I do feel like I put already too much effort explaining why I was making it. Meaning that it may look like I'm trying to enforce it, which is not at all the way I want to do things.

So you not only you are willing to review this index, you are also willing to identify strips that are discussed years after publication, put way more effort than average on it, acknowledge that usually the identification is already done, and are not willing to enforce your will.

Explain to me again why you wouldn't be the perfect curator.

Quild
2016-03-04, 02:55 AM
No....Why would it? :smallconfused:
Well... Since they don't bring anything new, I find them useless. I don't see why someone would be willing to keep an index of that.

I do like "The Annotated Order of the Stick" thread though.


So you not only you are willing to review this index, you are also willing to identify strips that are discussed years after publication, put way more effort than average on it, acknowledge that usually the identification is already done, and are not willing to enforce your will.

Explain to me again why you wouldn't be the perfect curator.

Please don't use plurals, that's a very unique case I'm talking about.
I'm not saying that when the Giant says he won't reveal V's gender ever, each occurence of a confusion about V's gender should be listed (thinking of it, there could be an interesting index for that though). Because it's something way more obvious in comics. Being a running gag compared to an adjective in the middle of long sentences.

Nor am I saying that when the Giant says that HPoH made a tactical error, it should be linked that the Giant is talking about what HPoH said to Roy in #1009, because the answer was made when 1009 was up and it's therefore already directed to the right strip.

OH WAIT :smalleek::



HPoH ( https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png ) Made a Tactical Error in #1009
Durkon "showed him Roy telling him the story about what happened with Eric. That's it."
#1009
10/19/2015



I genuinely missed that this one was speficially pointed to the comics. A lot.

Dr. Gamera
2016-03-04, 06:38 AM
I think you'd have to deal with a schism between Indexes and Indeces.

The Reformed Congregation of Latinate Plural Indices considers your suggestion to be indecent.

Peelee
2016-03-04, 08:02 AM
The Reformed Congregation of Latinate Plural Indices considers your suggestion to be indecent.

I love it when a plan comes together.

littlebum2002
2016-03-04, 09:00 AM
The Reformed Congregation of Latinate Plural Indices considers your suggestion to be indecent.

Yeah but the Society of People who Love "Merica insist it be spelled "indexes"

Peelee
2016-03-04, 10:40 AM
Yeah but the Society of People who Love "Merica insist it be spelled "indexes"

What Index are they categorized in?

137beth
2016-03-04, 02:00 PM
The Popular Judaic Front, of course.

littlebum2002
2016-03-04, 03:56 PM
What Index are they categorized in?

I can't think of one answer to this that won't violate forum rules.

Peelee
2016-03-04, 05:12 PM
I can't think of one answer to this that won't violate forum rules.

Could've run with the People's Front of Judea. Don't think it would have ended well, though.

Jasdoif
2016-03-04, 07:39 PM
I can't think of one answer to this that won't violate forum rules.Could probably have come up with something related to your use of a double-quote instead of an apostrophe.

Gwynfrid
2016-03-04, 09:26 PM
I can't think of one answer to this that won't violate forum rules.

Lets suggest the next thread title as :

"On a Saner Thread, We Wouldn't Need to Discuss... Er, What Were We Discussing, Anyway?"

Jasdoif
2016-03-04, 09:29 PM
Lets suggest the next thread title as :

"On a Saner Thread, We Wouldn't Need to Discuss... Er, What Were We Discussing, Anyway?"Too many characters ( :smalltongue: ) How about....

"The Index of the Giant's Comments VI - Sanity is an Allusion"

ThePhantasm
2016-03-05, 12:44 PM
Someone give me a call when the thread title discussion is over.

DataNinja
2016-03-05, 12:53 PM
Too many characters ( :smalltongue: ) How about....

"The Index of the Giant's Comments VI - Sanity is an Allusion"

Or "The Index of the Giant's Comments VI - Now Up to 50% On Topic"

factotum
2016-03-05, 01:42 PM
Someone give me a call when the thread title discussion is over.

With you there--it's 45 pages before we need another title, and the one we've got seems to be fine now...

Jasdoif
2016-03-05, 01:50 PM
With you there--it's 45 pages before we need another title, and the one we've got seems to be fine now...Historically, posts changing the subject of conversation are more effective than posts about the current subject of conversation in that regard. There's a few things that should probably be discussed in the next few days if they're to be discussed, after all.

137beth
2016-03-07, 02:47 PM
Bah, the title of the next thread is irrelevant. Only the title of the seventh thread matters!

Fish
2016-03-08, 01:48 PM
To the question, why did Belkar not ask for a Protection from Law item, there are (at least) two possible answers: #1 because Belkar didn't know any better, or #2 because he didn't want to ask for something illegal. The original poster suggested the answer is #1. Then Rich posted to say the answer is #2. Joke or no joke, this is a valid answer. We have no reason to dismiss it.
If this quote arose in answer to such a discussion, that is (to me) argument against inclusion:

1. We already have a sufficient general answer to why the characters do not take some more optimal course, so we don't need specific answers to specific courses not chosen; and

2. It did not arise to answer a question in the comic, but in answer to speculation that happened outside it. People who read the comic will not also read the discussion about the comic so the question will likely never arise again.

I would say: remove.

Jasdoif
2016-03-10, 11:45 AM
And here we are!


UPDATE COMING, CALLING FOR PMs TO REQUIRE VOTES

Anyone thinking the entry marked "Accepting PMs to require vote" should not be included in the Index should send me a private message, saying the entry should require a vote. (The default is to include, an item not voted on will be included in the Index.) If I get PMs from two or more people about the particular entry, it will be voted on to decide inclusion; the vote will be the next stage, and I'll announce it when the vote is ready.

A couple of the quotes below reached strong consensus already. A vote is considered unnecessary in these cases, so they will be included.


Proposed Items for Index 5.1

The OotS Strips in Gygax Magazine Will Be in a Collection Someday

#1020
01/22/2016
No vote required, will be included.


Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)
Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".
#1020
01/22/2016
Accepting PMs to require vote. PM threshold met, vote required.


On the Ephemerality of Memories from the Afterlife (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376)
Roy can remember anything that happened in the clouds, and the rest is "fuzzy" but not completely forgotten (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256).
#1022
02/08/2016
No vote required, will be included.



PMs will be accepted until March 11th, 9PM EDT already. I'll try to update the table if/when entries get sufficient PMs.

To send me a PM, click my username (The vaguely-pronounceable(?)-looking word above the spellcasting-and-invocation-using banana with purple hair) and select "Private Message". Or I guess you could click here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=23376). Anyway, include the title of the entry you're nominating in the message. Mentioning something about "Index Nomination" in the subject line would be helpful.

A few final reminders:
Don't post suggestions to require votes. They're sent by PM to avoid filling up the thread with them, posts will not be counted.
Only PM for entries you think should be excluded. They'll be included if they don't receive sufficient nominations.
We're not voting on the entries yet. The voting will be the next stage, assuming a vote is required; I'll call for the vote at an appropriate time.
There's still a banana in charge. Hi. :smalltongue:

Further discussion of entries is encouraged at this point. In particular, recommendations for different titles and descriptions for the quote entries are things I'd be happy to consider.
I'll get the subject of deletions after additions are taken care of.

DaggerPen
2016-03-10, 12:26 PM
I didn't realize the "V's Children are adopted" quote was up for removal. I firmly oppose that one being removed.

A) It's non-obvious that's why he did it...or at least, I didn't know it until Word of Giant came down and found it interesting at the time.

B) It's not something that can be answered in-comic or by referring to a particular page.

C) It's about the writing process, which firmly places it in "relevant" territory.

D) Did I mention it's really interesting?

E) The original proposal was not to remove, but to modify the index entry to make it clear that V's kids are stated to be adopted in-comic, and the quote is clarifying the writing process. I haven't seen anyone specifically say they want it removed (although paging through 4 pages of posts makes it easy to miss something...my respect for our illustrious banana grows).

I completely missed this as well - I had interpreted the original post to mean it should be kept in as a Writing Process quote. I definitely do not support removing it - while we know in comic the kids are adopted, The Giant clarifying that it was to leave the potential that V and Inkyrius are the same sex open is noteworthy information, IMO.

(I still need to catch up on the rest of the thread.)

Jasdoif
2016-03-10, 12:39 PM
I completely missed this as well - I had interpreted the original post to mean it should be kept in as a Writing Process quote. I definitely do not support removing it - while we know in comic the kids are adopted, The Giant clarifying that it was to leave the potential that V and Inkyrius are the same sex open is noteworthy information, IMO.So noted. It's probably safe from removal at this point.


Anyway, since I managed to post at the bottom of a page again....In any case anyone didn't see the last page, there's official-y stuff going on:



UPDATE COMING, CALLING FOR PMs TO REQUIRE VOTES

Anyone thinking the entry marked "Accepting PMs to require vote" should not be included in the Index should send me a private message, saying the entry should require a vote. (The default is to include, an item not voted on will be included in the Index.) If I get PMs from two or more people about the particular entry, it will be voted on to decide inclusion; the vote will be the next stage, and I'll announce it when the vote is ready.

A couple of the quotes below reached strong consensus already. A vote is considered unnecessary in these cases, so they will be included.


Proposed Items for Index 5.1

The OotS Strips in Gygax Magazine Will Be in a Collection Someday

#1020
01/22/2016
No vote required, will be included.


Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)
Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".
#1020
01/22/2016
Accepting PMs to require vote. PM threshold met, vote required.


On the Ephemerality of Memories from the Afterlife (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763473393381376)
Roy can remember anything that happened in the clouds, and the rest is "fuzzy" but not completely forgotten (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/696763877711712256).
#1022
02/08/2016
No vote required, will be included.



PMs will be accepted until March 11th, 9PM EDT already. I'll try to update the table if/when entries get sufficient PMs.

To send me a PM, click my username (The vaguely-pronounceable(?)-looking word above the spellcasting-and-invocation-using banana with purple hair) and select "Private Message". Or I guess you could click here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=23376). Anyway, include the title of the entry you're nominating in the message. Mentioning something about "Index Nomination" in the subject line would be helpful.

A few final reminders:
Don't post suggestions to require votes. They're sent by PM to avoid filling up the thread with them, posts will not be counted.
Only PM for entries you think should be excluded. They'll be included if they don't receive sufficient nominations.
We're not voting on the entries yet. The voting will be the next stage, assuming a vote is required; I'll call for the vote at an appropriate time.
There's still a banana in charge. Hi. :smalltongue:

Further discussion of entries is encouraged at this point. In particular, recommendations for different titles and descriptions for the quote entries are things I'd be happy to consider.

littlebum2002
2016-03-10, 02:07 PM
I don't THINK my phone is acting up...is that second quote by someone other than Rich?

And if so, is this the first time a non-Rich quote is being added to the Index?

Jasdoif
2016-03-10, 03:09 PM
Well that was fast. Usually is....ANYWAY.
Item up for voting:

Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)


Please bold your yes/no votes, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
Please avoid discussing the quote itself, outside of giving an explanation for your vote in the same post as your vote. This'll make it easier to catch up after the vote, if a new quote comes along while we're still voting.
Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes in favor than votes against.

Voting will be open until March 13th, 8PM EDT EST? Eastern Time.



I don't THINK my phone is acting up...is that second quote by someone other than Rich?It is indeed a post made by someone other than the Giant.


And if so, is this the first time a non-Rich quote is being added to the Index?It's not the first time a supporting reference that wasn't a quote by the Giant has been proposed, no:


Real World Intent

The Giant Applauding 5E D&D's Acknowledgement of Diversity (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/492520533456461824)
Specifically, how the core rules take into account gender, gender identity, and sexuality; as referred to the article here (http://www.themarysue.com/sexuality-and-gender-diversity-dungeons-and-dragons-next/).
#958
07/24/2014



But whether it's actually being added is an entirely different question, due to the vote being called on it.

Ron Miel
2016-03-10, 04:04 PM
Item up for voting:

Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)


Voting YES for inclusion

Mad Humanist
2016-03-10, 04:07 PM
Well that was fast. Usually is....ANYWAY.
Item up for voting:

Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)


I vote for inclusion

137beth
2016-03-10, 04:16 PM
I vote include!

Porthos
2016-03-10, 04:19 PM
Oui.charlim

Peelee
2016-03-10, 05:23 PM
In the spirit of making my vote different, apparently.... no.

Emanick
2016-03-10, 05:48 PM
I vote no, for reasons discussed earlier.

thatSeniorGuy
2016-03-10, 06:16 PM
Yes for inclusion.

Grey_Wolf_c
2016-03-10, 06:20 PM
No

Grey Wolf

Sir_Norbert
2016-03-10, 06:40 PM
my vote is Yes

ThePhantasm
2016-03-10, 06:45 PM
No.

.................

Gray Mage
2016-03-10, 06:53 PM
It is unneeded. No.

DataNinja
2016-03-10, 08:10 PM
I vote no to inclusion.

Gwynfrid
2016-03-10, 11:45 PM
Sticking to my earlier position: Yes.

Lissou
2016-03-10, 11:56 PM
I am voting No

martianmister
2016-03-11, 02:49 AM
I vote NO...

factotum
2016-03-11, 03:22 AM
I vote Yes.

Dr. Gamera
2016-03-11, 04:48 AM
I vote yes, because it's a pair of non-obvious comments from the Giant that answer a question that people repeatedly asked about the comic.

Markozeta
2016-03-11, 11:44 AM
I vote http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png YES

Kalmegil
2016-03-11, 01:31 PM
Yes.......

Joerg
2016-03-11, 02:05 PM
Yes, include it.

Lord Torath
2016-03-11, 02:43 PM
I'll vote No.

Zherog
2016-03-11, 03:26 PM
Yes .

SaintRidley
2016-03-11, 06:23 PM
Yes, emphatically.

DemonRoach
2016-03-12, 04:57 AM
Voting Yes

Bird
2016-03-12, 06:14 AM
Yes, include.

snowblizz
2016-03-12, 08:33 AM
Always in favour of more inclusiveness :P
YES

Throknor
2016-03-12, 09:19 AM
yes. Is a vote

137beth
2016-03-12, 12:32 PM
I vote http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Hel%20Priest_zpsv6pywjna.png YES

Ooh, if there's a tie, can Banjo break the tie?

Peelee
2016-03-12, 12:46 PM
Ooh, if there's a tie, can Banjo break the tie?

I propose a new vote that this joke be taken out and shot.

DataNinja
2016-03-12, 12:56 PM
I propose a new vote that this joke be taken out and shot.

I second that.

Jasdoif
2016-03-12, 12:58 PM
New page, new reminder there's a vote going on:

Item up for voting:

Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856)


Please bold your yes/no votes, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
Please avoid discussing the quote itself, outside of giving an explanation for your vote in the same post as your vote. This'll make it easier to catch up after the vote, if a new quote comes along while we're still voting.
Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes in favor than votes against.

Voting will be open until March 13th, 8PM EDT EST? Eastern Time.

Ooh, if there's a tie, can Banjo break the tie?Tie not. Banjo or Banjo not, there is no tie.

(Per Rule F4, a quote with two or more votes in favor than votes against is included, otherwise the quote is excluded; there are no vote scenarios that result in a tie)

Keltest
2016-03-12, 08:44 PM
I second that.

I second your seconding. Don't really care what happens to the quote, but this joke needs to be put out of its misery.

NCoffin
2016-03-13, 01:12 AM
I vote No to including the quote.

dps
2016-03-13, 02:17 AM
Yes to include the scroll activation mishap quote.

Emanick
2016-03-13, 06:00 AM
Always in favour of more inclusiveness :P
YES

NO! Join me and vote against inclusiveness! Inclusiveness is bad! :smallfurious:

Jasdoif
2016-03-13, 08:26 PM
OK.

Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/690684036163833856) passed; 19 for, 10 against. It will be included.

All three entries are now in the Index.

Now then, on the subject of deletions....The tentative list is below. I don't really want to start a vote on the weekend, and it turns out I misunderstood people about the V's Children entry (so that one's not on the list); so if anyone has anything to add at this point, now's the time. Ideally we'll get a vote on removals started some time tomorrow.


Entries Suggested for Removal

Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places

#969
12/01/2014


Durkon Throws Diamond Dust
Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.
#844
03/09/2012


Orrin Draketooth's Daughter
She's not Haley.
#816
11/21/2011


Haley's Boots of Speed
Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.
#793
05/29/2011


Elan's Rapiers
He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.
#723
05/13/2010



There hasn't been much movement on the subject of codifying removal procedures, so I have to assume it's not a great concern. So as it stands, it'll be run the same way I did the last removal: Each quote will be voted on, with the same two-more-votes-in-favor threshold to keep it as they took to be included in the first place.

Ron Miel
2016-03-14, 12:19 AM
Should we include his comments on the fake Kickstarter scam?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481414-Fakery!

Porthos
2016-03-14, 12:50 AM
Should we include his comments on the fake Kickstarter scam?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481414-Fakery!

Absolutely not, IMO. At most, it is a PSA to the greater Internet community out there, and just isn't part of the focus of this Index.

And it might tread into Forbidden Topics, like Rich's Business Dealings. Best just to stay far far away from it, IMO.

factotum
2016-03-14, 03:12 AM
Definitely not--it's not related to the strip or the plotlines within, and only has a tangential relationship to OotS as a whole. It's specifically the sort of thing we're not supposed to be putting in the index, therefore.

Markozeta
2016-03-14, 12:27 PM
No to recent tweets.

Jasdoif
2016-03-14, 02:06 PM
Definitely not--it's not related to the strip or the plotlines within, and only has a tangential relationship to OotS as a whole. It's specifically the sort of thing we're not supposed to be putting in the index, therefore.Exactly. The closest aspect in the entire thing is the lack of any marketing companies being involved with the Kickstarter (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/708735085726588929), which has nothing to do with the comic itself. As such, it fails to qualify under Rule B and thus isn't Index-worthy.

Ron Miel
2016-03-14, 07:58 PM
I think it has a place in the Supporting the strip section. At least one person has given them money, presumably thinking they were helping support the strip. The Giant's tweets warn that they have no connection with him, and you won't support the strip by giving them money.

Peelee
2016-03-14, 08:17 PM
I think it has a place in the Supporting the strip section. At least one person has given them money, presumably thinking they were helping support the strip. The Giant's tweets warn that they have no connection with him, and you won't support the strip by giving them money.

While I support the idea of people not getting scammed, the Giant could have made a large news post of the main page, a stickied thread, or any number of other highly visible warnings about it. He did not. If you believe we should shoulder some responsibility to notify people of the potential for scam, you could always start a new thread for it, or sig it, but trying to shoehorn it into a thread where it doesn't belong is not the right approach, IMO.

Also, as far as my understanding, nobody has given money under the assumption that they were supporting the strip; the bait is that they will help get more exposure for the target's own kickstarter. It requires a rather large mental leap to assume that in any way would support the strip, even under the assumption that the scamming company is legit.

Jasdoif
2016-03-14, 08:44 PM
Not to break up the conversation on the applicability of Rule B, but I've got official-esque stuff to get started.


CALLING FOR CONFIRMATION VOTE ON MULTIPLE QUOTES

The inclusion of the posts below have been challenged. This vote will determine whether they remain in the Index or not.

The quotes are as follows:
A: Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
B: Durkon Throws Diamond Dust (Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.)
C: Orrin Draketooth's Daughter (She's not Haley.)
D: Haley's Boots of Speed (Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.)
E: Elan's Rapiers (He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.)

Since we've had confusion on this before, the vote will be for which ones to keep, rather than yes or no. Simply vote "keep" for the quotes you support keeping; you don't have to mention ones you want removed (though you can vote "remove" on them if you prefer). If you want to make my job difficult really don't care about particular quotes, you can vote "no opinion" on those.

You can vote individually ("Keep A, Keep C") or in a group ("Keep B, D, E"). "Keep all" is also a valid vote, as is "Remove all". ("No opinion on all" would be the same as not voting.)

Please bold your vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
The usual suggestion to avoid discussing quotes during the vote does not apply in this case.
Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes to keep than votes to remove.

Voting will be open until March 16th, 9PM EDT.

Jaxzan Proditor
2016-03-14, 08:57 PM
Keep A, B, E.

Grey_Wolf_c
2016-03-14, 09:03 PM
Remove All

Grey Wolf

DataNinja
2016-03-14, 09:06 PM
Keep A; Remove, B, C, D, E.

Peelee
2016-03-14, 09:29 PM
Remove All

Ron Miel
2016-03-14, 09:40 PM
Remove All

Porthos
2016-03-14, 09:58 PM
Keep AllThis Space Intentionally Left Blank

Gray Mage
2016-03-14, 10:14 PM
Remove all. Clean up some of the clutter.

Lissou
2016-03-14, 11:01 PM
Remove all

ZMiles
2016-03-15, 12:49 AM
remove all

Emanick
2016-03-15, 02:39 AM
Keep A, remove the others.

SaintRidley
2016-03-15, 04:19 AM
Keep all of them.

Quild
2016-03-15, 04:37 AM
Remove All.

Keltest
2016-03-15, 05:07 AM
Remove All

Lycunadari
2016-03-15, 05:17 AM
Keep A; Remove, B, C, D, E.

Gwynfrid
2016-03-15, 05:48 AM
Keep: A, E.
Remove: B, C, D.

Dr. Gamera
2016-03-15, 06:54 AM
Keep all is my vote.

Lord Torath
2016-03-15, 07:27 AM
Remove all.

littlebum2002
2016-03-15, 08:38 AM
Keep: A, E.
Remove: B, C, D.

Again, ditto.

Sir_Norbert
2016-03-15, 09:52 AM
Keep E, nuke the rest to orbit

Markozeta
2016-03-15, 09:55 AM
Keep A,E; Remove, B, C, D

Cartographer7
2016-03-15, 10:23 AM
Keep A, C, E

Kish
2016-03-15, 10:35 AM
Keep All..

Jasdoif
2016-03-15, 10:42 AM
Vote reminder since we're on a new page (I imagine having easier access to the list of quotes being voted on will be particularly helpful):


CALLING FOR CONFIRMATION VOTE ON MULTIPLE QUOTES

The inclusion of the posts below have been challenged. This vote will determine whether they remain in the Index or not.

The quotes are as follows:
A: Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
B: Durkon Throws Diamond Dust (Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.)
C: Orrin Draketooth's Daughter (She's not Haley.)
D: Haley's Boots of Speed (Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.)
E: Elan's Rapiers (He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.)

Since we've had confusion on this before, the vote will be for which ones to keep, rather than yes or no. Simply vote "keep" for the quotes you support keeping; you don't have to mention ones you want removed (though you can vote "remove" on them if you prefer). If you want to make my job difficult really don't care about particular quotes, you can vote "no opinion" on those.

You can vote individually ("Keep A, Keep C") or in a group ("Keep B, D, E"). "Keep all" is also a valid vote, as is "Remove all". ("No opinion on all" would be the same as not voting.)

Please bold your vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
The usual suggestion to avoid discussing quotes during the vote does not apply in this case.
Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes to keep than votes to remove.

Voting will be open until March 16th, 9PM EDT.

Doug Lampert
2016-03-15, 11:15 AM
Vote reminder since we're on a new page (I imagine having easier access to the list of quotes being voted on will be particularly helpful):

Remove A, B, C, D; Keep E

Zherog
2016-03-15, 11:54 AM
Keep A, E .

Kalmegil
2016-03-15, 12:02 PM
Keep all..

LeSwordfish
2016-03-15, 12:10 PM
Keep A, E, Remove Others

Cizak
2016-03-15, 12:41 PM
Keep A, E.

Keltest
2016-03-15, 02:30 PM
Just to be clear here, does a vote to keep whatever letter without any mention of the others count as a vote to remove the ones not specifically included in the "keep", or are they considered indifferent and therefore not counted either way?

Grey_Wolf_c
2016-03-15, 02:43 PM
Just to be clear here, does a vote to keep whatever letter without any mention of the others count as a vote to remove the ones not specifically included in the "keep", or are they considered indifferent and therefore not counted either way?


you don't have to mention ones you want removed (though you can vote "remove" on them if you prefer).
Yours,

Grey Wolf

Sniffnoy
2016-03-15, 02:53 PM
Keep ADE; remove BC.

Jasdoif
2016-03-15, 02:58 PM
Just to be clear here, does a vote to keep whatever letter without any mention of the others count as a vote to remove the ones not specifically included in the "keep", or are they considered indifferent and therefore not counted either way?Any quote that isn't mentioned in a vote as a "keep" or a "no opinion" is considered to have a vote for its removal.

Yendor
2016-03-15, 03:19 PM
Remove all.

tomandtish
2016-03-15, 03:58 PM
Keep A, E. Remove the rest.

2.5 cats
2016-03-15, 04:03 PM
Keep: A, E

Remove: B, C, D.

Bird
2016-03-15, 07:21 PM
Keep ADE; remove BC

Pyrous
2016-03-15, 09:49 PM
Remove All

Rodin
2016-03-15, 10:31 PM
Keep E.

Remove others.

NCoffin
2016-03-15, 10:59 PM
Keep A.
Remove B, C, D, E.

Mad Humanist
2016-03-16, 06:33 AM
Keep'em all.

DemonRoach
2016-03-16, 07:02 AM
Keep A and E

snowblizz
2016-03-16, 09:51 AM
Keep A and E.

Remove others.

137beth
2016-03-16, 10:00 AM
Keep A,C,D,E

Jasdoif
2016-03-16, 01:53 PM
New page, new vote reminder:


CALLING FOR CONFIRMATION VOTE ON MULTIPLE QUOTES

The inclusion of the posts below have been challenged. This vote will determine whether they remain in the Index or not.

The quotes are as follows:
A: Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places
B: Durkon Throws Diamond Dust (Durkon threw diamond dust into the air in 844.)
C: Orrin Draketooth's Daughter (She's not Haley.)
D: Haley's Boots of Speed (Yes, she did get them dyed to match her brown/tan garb.)
E: Elan's Rapiers (He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrel.)

Since we've had confusion on this before, the vote will be for which ones to keep, rather than yes or no. Simply vote "keep" for the quotes you support keeping; you don't have to mention ones you want removed (though you can vote "remove" on them if you prefer). If you want to make my job difficult really don't care about particular quotes, you can vote "no opinion" on those.

You can vote individually ("Keep A, Keep C") or in a group ("Keep B, D, E"). "Keep all" is also a valid vote, as is "Remove all". ("No opinion on all" would be the same as not voting.)

Please bold your vote, it'll make it easier for me to notice when I go through and count everything.
The usual suggestion to avoid discussing quotes during the vote does not apply in this case.
Per Rule F4, inclusion by vote requires a quote to have two more votes to keep than votes to remove.

Voting will be open until March 16th, 9PM EDT.There's a little over six hours left, if you haven't voted yet.

Joerg
2016-03-16, 02:56 PM
Keep A, E, remove B, C, D. I propose moving E to the "storytelling mistakes?" category.

martianmister
2016-03-16, 05:06 PM
Remove B, keep the rest.

Jasdoif
2016-03-16, 08:32 PM
OK.

Protection from Law is Illegal in Many Places remains; the vote was 27 to keep, 14 to remove.
Durkon Throws Diamond Dust failed to remain; the vote was 7 to keep, 34 to remove.
Orrin Draketooth's Daughter failed to remain; the vote was 9 to keep, 32 to remove.
Haley's Boots of Speed failed to remain; the vote was 10 to keep, 31 to remove.
Elan's Rapiers remains; the vote was 26 to keep, 15 to remove.

The three entries have been removed from the Index.


I propose moving E to the "storytelling mistakes?" category.I'm not sure an unmentioned detail rises to the level of being, or appearing to be, a "storytelling mistake".

Gwynfrid
2016-03-17, 06:45 AM
I'm not sure an unmentioned detail rises to the level of being, or appearing to be, a "storytelling mistake".

I think Joerg's suggestion makes sense. The question the quote replies to hints at suspicion of a plot hole. And the Giant's response clearly indicates he felt that way, too.

Joerg
2016-03-17, 02:02 PM
Indeed. And my reasoning is also: out of context it is an unimportant detail that Elan owns two rapiers (and a chaos saber). That's why it was proposed for removal. But the linked quote actually answered the question why Elan could use a rapier even though he lost a rapier earlier. If I'm looking for a quote that answers that question, the "storytelling mistakes" category is where I look first.

Markozeta
2016-03-17, 03:35 PM
Indeed. And my reasoning is also: out of context it is an unimportant detail that Elan owns two rapiers (and a chaos saber). That's why it was proposed for removal. But the linked quote actually answered the question why Elan could use a rapier even though he lost a rapier earlier. If I'm looking for a quote that answers that question, the "storytelling mistakes" category is where I look first.

Ah, the line of reasoning is that if I use the index, and looking for this question, then it's because I think I found a storytelling mistake - it just turns out it isn't a mistake. Makes sense. I would agree with this suggestion.

littlebum2002
2016-03-17, 04:11 PM
Actually, none of the things mentioned in the "storytelling mistakes" category are actually mistakes.

Peelee
2016-03-17, 04:35 PM
Actually, none of the things mentioned in the "storytelling mistakes" category are actually mistakes.

Well, technically, the category is "storytelling mistakes?", implying that without the quotes, these things could be construed as mistakes, and the quotes help explain why they are not.

That said, I posit that all the things mentioned everywhere else are storytelling mistakes. I've heard that repeating jokes only makes them better.