Pact Boon for Assassin/Warlock

[. Shadowblade .]

Hi guys,

which pact boon is the most worth for Warlock 3/Assassin Max to be more deadly?

Race: Feral Tiefling - Winged (because I love flying)
main stats: Dexterity, Charisma

Invocations:
- Mask of Many Faces ?
- Devil Sight ?

Patron - Great Old One (for Awakened Mind)

Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade

1) Chain - imho best option for Assassin: Invisible Familiar:
- I can do sneak attacks all the time ("another enemy of the target (= familiar) is within 5 feet of opponent")
- familiar can use Help action to give me advantage on next attack

2) Tome - I heard it is great, but I am not sure about its worth for just Warlock 3

3) Blade - probably not worth for Warlock 3 - requires Warlock 5/12 for its nice invocations, so it could be useful just for having a hidden weapon and its ability to use magic weapons as pact weapon

[PoeticDwarf]

As you said. Chain probably best

[Douche]

Do you really need agonizing blast? I feel like an assassin shouldn't be using eldritch blast... Unless your DM allowed you to get sneak attack off your EB, I suppose.

[RickAllison]

Do you really need agonizing blast? I feel like an assassin shouldn't be using eldritch blast... Unless your DM allowed you to get sneak attack off your EB, I suppose.

While it's not useful with Sneak Attack, it does get to take advantage of the auto-crit. The primary use I see for it is an easy ranged assassination for weak targets (or several!) that isn't reliant on lugging around and pulling out a ranged weapon. Maybe not the best use of an Invocation, but it does have its place.

[. Shadowblade .]

Do you really need agonizing blast? I feel like an assassin shouldn't be using eldritch blast... Unless your DM allowed you to get sneak attack off your EB, I suppose.

it is useful - it adds bonus to each EB beam on higher levels:


A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On hit, the target takes 1d10 force damage.

The spell creates more than one beam when you reach higher levels; two beams at 5th level, three beams at 11th level, and four beams at 17th level. You can direct the beams at the same target or at different ones. Make a seperate attack roll for each beam.

Sneak attack is for finesse and ranged weapons only.


While it's not useful with Sneak Attack, it does get to take advantage of the auto-crit. The primary use I see for it is an easy ranged assassination for weak targets (or several!) that isn't reliant on lugging around and pulling out a ranged weapon. Maybe not the best use of an Invocation, but it does have its place.

ok, what would be your invocations for Assassin then?

[RickAllison]

it is useful - it adds bonus to each EB beam on higher levels:



Sneak attack is for finesse and ranged weapons only.



ok, what would be your invocations for Assassin then?

I think his point was that it doesn't synergize well with the Sneak Attack. I did point out that it would combo with the auto-crit which is great for dealing with up to four weak targets in one good hit. If the Assassin were to be doing his trade in an urban environment, Mask of Many Faces (the one for at-will Disguise Self allows the assassin to constantly shift his appearance to avoid pursuers. He can kill a guard and then perfectly mimic the guard's appearance when a patrol walks by (supposing he can stash the body). Devil's Sight is fine where it is. EB can be switched for a good ranged weapon to preserve the use of Sneak Attack, though it has one fantastic synergy that can't be denied: Hex. I love Hex, and an assassin/warlock should always pack it. It basically means the user has an hour of inflicting disadvantage on attempts to use Perception on him. The synergy for dealing 4d10+4d6 is awesome and while getting a +20 on top is fantastic, not needing to use it in the first place would be better. Now for dungeon-delving where you do not have to worry about being wanted, AB definitely gets the advantage.

[Corran]

Hi guys,

which pact boon is the most worth for Warlock 3/Assassin Max to be more deadly?
main stats: Dexterity, Charisma
Just throwing out some general suggestions regarding the other aspects of your build that you mention in the op.


Invocations:
- Agonizing Blast
- Devil Sight (must have for Rogues with race without Darkvision)
Did you consider mask of many faces instead of agonizing blast? A flat bonus is nice, but so is the rp potential granted by mask of many faces, especially for an assassin. Works well with the cantrip friends and with the feat actor.
Devil's sight is necessary to cover for potential lack of darkvision, but also it is one of the three ingredients of the darkness + devil's sight + cunning action hide, which in turn plays well with either the cantrip BB (continual movement via denying reactions when in darkness and by forcing enemy to move to attack someone else via hiding) or with sharpshooter (through the advantage it grants you on attacks). And ofc with your sneak attack.


Patron - Great Old One (for Awakened Mind)
Fiend and fey offer some nice things at later levels (some play really well with an assassin build, eg dark one's own luck, gr invisibility, etc), though for a small dip the old one is the right choice I think.


Cantrips:
- Eldritch Blast
- Mage Hand
Friends plays well with mask of many faces.
BB plays well with darkness combo.

Regarding spells, you have 4 known, out of which you can have up to two 2nd level. My picks would be invisibility (2nd), darkness (2nd), hex (1st), as it plays well with assassinate, both for some extra damage and for lowering the enemy's initiative, and for your remaining 1st level known spell there are several choices. Maybe charm person would allow me to take another cantrip instead of friends.


1) Chain - imho best option for Assassin: Invisible Familiar:
- I can do sneak attacks all the time ("another enemy of the target (= familiar) is within 5 feet of opponent")
- familiar can use Help action to give me advantage on next attack

2) Tome - I heard it is great, but I am not sure about its worth for just Warlock 3

3) Blade - probably not worth for Warlock 3 - requires Warlock 5/12 for its nice invocations, so it could be useful just for having a hidden weapon and its ability to use magic weapons as pact weapon
Personally I would still go for the blade. I dont like familiars very much, and most of the benefits they can give you, you can do for yourself through the appropriate spell selection (invisibility for scouting, darkness for advantage in combat). And since your good assassination damage can come only through a finesse/ranged weapon (as your main is rogue, so damage comes through sneak attack, hence you need a weapon, and sometimes even a magic weapon), I would prioritise on having an easy means of always having access to one. So even if I wouldnt advance more than 3 levels in the warlock class, I would probably still pick pact of the blade, although that suits better my personal style of play and preferences I admit.



Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479210-The-True-Murder-Hobo-A-one-trick-Nova-Build) is a different approach to a lock assassin, have a read if you are interested (you can find one with many fighter levels and one with many warlock levels).

[. Shadowblade .]

I have read SCAG & made some changes:

Race: Feral Tiefling - Winged (because I love flying)
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

If you're willing to reconsider some parts of the build, you may find you get more mileage out of a Warlock Max/Assassin 3 version of the same character. 5th ed martial classes don't get much out of their vertical scaling, and work more like a shopping list of key abilities and extra attacks. Assassin 3 gets you the most important ability, the free crit. Spellcasters on the other hand gain substantially in utility and power as they level up, and Pact of the Blade offers abilities that will help you keep up with the melee curve and also synergize with your sneak attack.

What you'd be losing is sneak attack scaling that would eventually be substantial, but in return you get bucket loads of utility in and out of combat.

[Felvion]

Since you go tiefling i guess that devil's sight is not that worth it any more. I'd recommend Misty Visions. In fact i'd recommend misty visions anyway, i think it's far better than agonizing blast as long as you get a lot of damage potential from sneak attack.
In overall, i agree with Sir Pippin Boyd. You could probably get a lot more from warlock than from rogue for a good assassin and depending on your likes you could even limit the rogue levels down to 1.
If your dm allows you to use assassinate for Eldritch Blast (i'd say you could) rogue 3/ warlock x is the way to go.

[. Shadowblade .]

If you're willing to reconsider some parts of the build, you may find you get more mileage out of a Warlock Max/Assassin 3 version of the same character. 5th ed martial classes don't get much out of their vertical scaling, and work more like a shopping list of key abilities and extra attacks. Assassin 3 gets you the most important ability, the free crit. Spellcasters on the other hand gain substantially in utility and power as they level up, and Pact of the Blade offers abilities that will help you keep up with the melee curve and also synergize with your sneak attack.

What you'd be losing is sneak attack scaling that would eventually be substantial, but in return you get bucket loads of utility in and out of combat.


You could probably get a lot more from warlock than from rogue for a good assassin and depending on your likes you could even limit the rogue levels down to 1.

How come? My sneak attack / critical damage will be low without Assassin classes....


If your dm allows you to use assassinate for Eldritch Blast (i'd say you could) rogue 3/ warlock x is the way to go.

well, I cant count on that as Sneak attack is allowed for Finesse & Ranged weapons. That is why I plan to take Crossbow Expert with Sharpshooter.

[lebefrei]

How come? My sneak attack / critical damage will be low without Assassin classes..


Warlock 17/Assassin 3 has amazing flavor. The damage is still good and doesn't demand sneak attacking.

Attacks not including TWF:
Warlock 3/Assassin 12 1d8 rapier+dex+6d6 sneak
Warlock 12/Assassin 3 1d8+dex+cha(lifedrinker)+2d6 and then another 1d8+Dex+cha

Does the extra attack equal or exceed the additional 4d6 sneak? Often, yes, because it also allows the chance of sneak attack if you missed the first time, and gives an additional critical chance. It is more reliable.

Beyond that, think of all the assassin things a Warlock can do. Greater invisibility if Archfey, many more spell options to subterfuge and control, invisibility in shadows, changing your look at will, and so many other flavorful invocations that really make a fun and optioned assassin.

You keep cunning action and assassinate. You loose a few skill monkey abilities, but with a character focused on feeling like an assassin, it adds so much.

Also, for someone that wants to be a winged tiefling it seems like an obvious choice. Forgery and disguise self (and then alter self) is going to help you more than Infiltration Expertise to cover up rumors of the winged fiend assassin, which isn't exactly a subtle look.

If you're building around Death Strike then you're making a huge mistake. You probably won't get to 20.

[Felvion]

How come? My sneak attack / critical damage will be low without Assassin classes....

well, I cant count on that as Sneak attack is allowed for Finesse & Ranged weapons. That is why I plan to take Crossbow Expert with Sharpshooter.

Assassinate:
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest.... You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

As for critical hits:
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together.

As long as you roll a d20 to hit you are making an attack roll that can crit. Assassinate gives you the instacrit against surprised targets and advantage against anyone that hasn't played yet. There is no rule that says you can't apply "assassinate" to the eldritch blast rolls.
Also keep in mind that EB scales well, almost as good as your sneak attack (if you take agonizing blast) but it doesn't need any special conditions to proc. Sneak attack needs you to have advantage on the roll or an ally of yours within 5 ft of the target. EB damage is always the same no matter what (even if you hit with disadvantage).

If you go the mainly warlock path you save a feat, you don't need crossbow expert, you just max cha for better to-hit bonus and dmg (agonizing). Spellsniper could be useful but only if your dm uses cover rules, which is kinda rare. Sharpshooter is occasionaly useful but it doesn't crit so it is a good boost to your damage but not sure it's worth a feat at least not before you max your main stats.
I don't like doing math but i guess that agonizing eldritch blast with assassinate is better than plain sneak attack. It can be used more often during a battle and it stacks off your main stat which is CHA. Also you have the option to split the damage or keep it single target. Add to this all the warlock goodies: invocations are amazing, full spellcasting proggression, spell slots renewable per short rests, built in utility (through chain or tome pact) and defensive buffs regardless the patron. Who doesn't love abilties like awakened mind or misty escape?
What about that mystical book (of the ancients) you can write down any ritual you find in your adventures?

[. Shadowblade .]

there is another important condition - I am joining D&D group where is Tiefling Warlock already and 1) my DM does not like to have two characters with same classes in party and 2) we would have to share any special class magic items (like items for warlocks) as there is limited number of magic items in the setting.

[joaber]

I like the warlock 2/sorc 3/ rogue 15
warcaster
great old one for dissonant whisppers
whip

attack with booming blade (or even twin it if you want), quick dissonant whisppers (triggering BB) and reaction with eldritch blast

with hex will be at lvl 20: 1d4 +7d8 +16d6 +4d10 +25, or 2d4 +14d8 +32d6 +8d10 +25 with assassinate. +1d4 +3d8 +5 (+4d8 in move) in another target.

if your DM understand that the AoO you get with dissonant whisppers trigger sneak attack again (RAW don't), you can get spell sniper to cast booming blade at 10ft doing 2d4 +14d8 +19d6 +10 (without hex) or 4d4 +28d8 +38d6 +10.

can go deep in sorc losing some sneak attack damage for more SP and higher spells.