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View Full Version : How do you train bad/unintentionally disruptive roleplayers?



WarKitty
2016-02-24, 10:46 AM
Over my years of playing and DMing one thing I've noticed is that you get new roleplayers who are, typically quite by accident, difficult or disruptive to the game. This may take the form of a character who has one thing that they do, and insists on doing that thing in whatever situation they can, or complains that they "can't play their character" if it's not an option. Another form I've seen is the joke character that often ends up being disruptive to the game (usually this hides the most uncertain players). Or it can take the form of the overly dramatic character who ends up hogging way too much screen time with their drama.

The key element here is that the player is genuinely trying to roleplay as best they know how. Simply telling them to not do what they're doing often results in them withdrawing because they feel like they're being told "you roleplaying your character is bad and disruptive," without any sort of positive instruction on what they ought to do.

Have you had experience with this type, and how do you guide them to be better roleplayers?

OldTrees1
2016-02-24, 11:33 AM
Communication

1) The source of a problem will not change if they are not alerted to a problem's existence.
You will need to communicate what you see as a problem while looking for people communicating back to you.

2) People get defensive when attacked && Your goal is not to attack.
You and them are on the same side. Make this literal in your word choice. Describe the problem as if you two are on the same side look at the problem "over there". Take special note that, like the blind men and the elephant, you both might see different sides of the problem. However you are on the same team and have each other's best interests in mind.

When you can talk with people about problems you see rather than talk about problems you see with people, then you are 50% ready.

3) While malice exists, one should not attribute to malice that which can equally be explained by ignorance (theirs, or yours).
The hardest skill to improve but the most important one is the ability to understand others as they understand themselves. There are no easy shortcuts here. You will improve by asking questions, meeting people, and being wrong time and time and time again.

4) People get defensive when attacked && Your brain stops working when you get defensive.
Once you improve your ability to listen with the intent to receive communication/read with the intent to understand, then you can start to notice when your brain is trying not to do so. Practice not listening to your brain's desires to cease listening.

hymer
2016-02-24, 11:38 AM
Over my years of playing and DMing one thing I've noticed is that you get new roleplayers who are, typically quite by accident, difficult or disruptive to the game. This may take the form of a character who has one thing that they do, and insists on doing that thing in whatever situation they can, or complains that they "can't play their character" if it's not an option. Another form I've seen is the joke character that often ends up being disruptive to the game (usually this hides the most uncertain players). Or it can take the form of the overly dramatic character who ends up hogging way too much screen time with their drama.

The key element here is that the player is genuinely trying to roleplay as best they know how. Simply telling them to not do what they're doing often results in them withdrawing because they feel like they're being told "you roleplaying your character is bad and disruptive," without any sort of positive instruction on what they ought to do.

Have you had experience with this type, and how do you guide them to be better roleplayers?

One of those gives you an obvious in: the player complaining that their character cannot do their one thing. It gives you the chance to sit them down for a chat, probably bring up some other PCs as examples, and talk about how you make a character that isn't crippled by overspecialization. Also a talk about how no one player can expect to have the spotlight all the time.
My most recent problem with the player of joke characters was solved by building a stonewall one brick at a time. I shut down his behaviour. I forbid gnomes, criticized constructively in the PC construction phase, had NPCs act in character rather than as if they're in a Benny Hill episode (meaning he kept going to prison and got peer pressure against him), and talk to the player about what's going on. I'm talking about a grown man with family and children, who used to run his own company, so if you're dealing with a scared mouse of a person, you'd need to take that into account, of course.
Overly dramatic I haven't seen in a long time, but I suppose you deal with that the way you deal with any spotlight hogging: Communicate. At the table you can go "Right, and while that whole thing goes on, I don't think we need to go into details, we're going to turn to the other players, because they have to have play time too." Away from the table, you are more detail-oriented and constructive. Most people can understand that the other people gotta get their turn to play.

In the end, communication is the key, of course. Make it clear what's acceptable at your table and what isn't, help get through the problem, and listen to what they have to say. If they still cause disruption, they have to go, whether on their own initiative (the complaining player is more likely to do that) or on yours. It's rotten, but it's the GM's job.
Also, take it up with other players, and see how they feel. You may be surprised at their stance, and they may have some ideas you can use.

Edit: Substantially shadowmonked.

The Fury
2016-02-24, 04:41 PM
I can't truly say I've had experiences with this type of player so much as I kind of am that kind of player. A few times I did have a character that could only meaningfully contribute in one way, which I found tedious but stuck with because doing something else might make me a liability. I've made my share of joke characters too, and the characters I had the most fun with were admittedly overly dramatic, (hey, scenery is so tasty and such fun to chew on!)

I guess the biggest question now would be why my group tolerated me as long as they did. For one thing, I wasn't the only member of the group that liked joke characters-- there was another player and they often GMed. In fact, I mostly gave up making joke characters because I thought the ones the other player made were funnier. For another thing this group had a couple players that loved to optimize and would conveniently "forget" how certain inconvenient rules worked. Since I was at least not trying to fast-talk the GM, they'd usually overlook the fact that I'm going Daffy Duck in some random village.

For me, I think it was less about getting tendencies trained out of me but more like getting them out of my system. I still fall into making the "overly dramatic" type characters because I like having a character arc, but I like to think I'm better at knowing when to tone it down.

Geddy2112
2016-02-24, 05:27 PM
Second for communicating-most players don't realize it is a problem, doubly if they get positive feedback for such actions. And if you are in a group or campaign where everyone is on board with this, then by all means roll with it.

Most of these things are just new player bad habits. This kind of behavior gets reactions that encourage it, normally by doing some kind of blockheaded dingus thing. Often, these players come from Elder Scrolls/Fallout?GTA style games where they can run solo and do whatever they want without penalty. Being too nice is a major mistake any DM can do in this case-you obviously don't want to off their character for being a dingus, but you have to enforce, and tell them up front, that actions have consequences. Some of these consequences are dire. It is also better that you enforce these consequences than open PvP, which is in my opinion something only experienced players should consider.

Before any game I DM, when we have our character building session zero, and I explain the setting, I explain very clearly that actions have consequences. You can be/do whatever you want, but if you fall from a high distance, you take damage. If you attack a guard, they will fight back, etc. This way, if any joke character tries to get silly, you enforce what would happen. If your character is such a joke or gimmick that they should not even have a level in a class, they end up dying really fast.

Also, I build my setting so that characters who want to have fun, or be whimsical, or really gimmicky can have their moments in the sun. If you want to be the best trap disarming rogue, I will include some traps. If you want to be a party bard, I will include some people to schmooze and booze with. If you want to ride on a bear and lance things to death, I will have some open combats where you can charge/kill things.

Mixing those two aspects together, players can get a feel for when and when not to be that gimmick/joke/whatever. They see the clear signs of "this is here for you to do your thing" and learn the red flags of "doing that thing here seems like a really bad idea". Some players won't respond to the stick and carrot and just want attention. In this case, ignore their all but most severe stupidity, and have NPC's do the same. If the jokester wants to dance on the table and throw chicken across the room during the king's feast, ignoring them is sometimes the best course of action. Having the guards kill them instantly is still a response, but when not a single person seems to notice or care(in and out of character) they will realize they have to be serious to get attention.

Darth Ultron
2016-02-24, 07:57 PM
Well, ''communication'' is great...sort of, if you can even talk to the person. I find that mostly it's a waste of time. A lot of problem players don't want to ''talk'' and will avoid it no matter how hard the DM tries. And even if you can sit them down and get them to be ''serious'', they will often dismiss or ignore or not listen to anything said to them.

And even if you talk to them, it's not much use unless you tell them what you want them to do. And lots of people don't like to be told what to do, so they won't listen. And even when you tell them what to do, it's way to open to interpretation by the player. Like saying ''a joke is ok, once in a while'' to a DM this is once an hour; to the problem player it is every five minutes.

I find it best to just control them in the game. Just steer the game away from anything they might do that is disruptive. Or steer the game towards whatever and get it over quick.

OldTrees1
2016-02-24, 09:10 PM
Well, ''communication'' is great...sort of, if you can even talk to the person. I find that mostly it's a waste of time. A lot of problem players don't want to ''talk'' and will avoid it no matter how hard the DM tries. And even if you can sit them down and get them to be ''serious'', they will often dismiss or ignore or not listen to anything said to them.

And even if you talk to them, it's not much use unless you tell them what you want them to do. And lots of people don't like to be told what to do, so they won't listen. And even when you tell them what to do, it's way to open to interpretation by the player. Like saying ''a joke is ok, once in a while'' to a DM this is once an hour; to the problem player it is every five minutes.

I find it best to just control them in the game. Just steer the game away from anything they might do that is disruptive. Or steer the game towards whatever and get it over quick.

I provided a 4 step plan that increases the chance of talking not being a waste of time. You would be surprised how frequently "problem" players want to talk when all 4 steps are employed. (Step 2 in particular handles dismiss/ignore by preventing them from wanting to dismiss/ignore)

Milo v3
2016-02-24, 11:48 PM
After the session I talked to them one-to-one on how their actions are affecting the enjoyment of other players and ask them to be more conscious of their actions in the problem area. Didn't take long to have the "Guy who kept splitting from the group/thought it's fine to steal from the group and screw over his companions for LOL's since he's a CN rogue" to change into one of the groups best roleplayers.

OldTrees1
2016-02-25, 12:18 AM
After the session I talked to them one-to-one on how their actions are affecting the enjoyment of other players and ask them to be more conscious of their actions in the problem area. Didn't take long to have the "Guy who kept splitting from the group/thought it's fine to steal from the group and screw over his companions for LOL's since he's a CN rogue" to change into one of the groups best roleplayers.

Glad it worked out.

Word of warning though: Contextualizing it as "their actions" tends to evoke a defensive and stubborn response.

But it worked out regardless this time. Hooray! :smallsmile:

WarKitty
2016-02-25, 10:40 AM
After the session I talked to them one-to-one on how their actions are affecting the enjoyment of other players and ask them to be more conscious of their actions in the problem area. Didn't take long to have the "Guy who kept splitting from the group/thought it's fine to steal from the group and screw over his companions for LOL's since he's a CN rogue" to change into one of the groups best roleplayers.

The main worry I have is a lot of times these players may not yet feel that they know comfortably how to roleplay. Ideally I'd like to provide some instruction on "here's how you roleplay well in a way that everyone enjoys" as well as "here's what not to do."

hymer
2016-02-25, 11:02 AM
"here's how you roleplay well in a way that everyone enjoys"

That's going to be rather table specific. At some tables, it's a sin to invoke Monty Python, because everything goes silly. At some you can't make an elf. At some, explicit reference to sexual matters is banned. Some think that the halfling not wanting to go on the adventure is good roleplaying. Others would consider it needlessly obstructive. Some would talk to any named NPC. Some would attack any unnamed NPC that isn't specifically background. At some places, players are encouraged to make up details of the world on the fly. In others that would be seen as cheating. *shrug*

I think talking with the other players is worth bringing up again. What are some of the things they would like to see?

dascarletm
2016-02-25, 01:43 PM
I train them with a rolled-up newspaper and some snacks.

Good roleplaying gets you snacks

Bad roleplaying gets a whack from the paper, and me saying, "Bad player! Bad!"
:smallwink:

Darth Ultron
2016-02-25, 04:14 PM
The main worry I have is a lot of times these players may not yet feel that they know comfortably how to roleplay. Ideally I'd like to provide some instruction on "here's how you roleplay well in a way that everyone enjoys" as well as "here's what not to do."

Assuming you have a good person who wants to be a good player, you can always train them. Role-playing like any skill, is something a person needs to learn.

Giving them the bare bones of their character's personality is a good way to start. Write out one of them 10 minute characters. And make it very clear. Add in actions and and things to do. You want to give them a huge amount of detail. At first they will just follow your instructions, and you shroud just let them. Let them naturally figure out ''it says here my character does not like halflings, but I'm going to say he does''.

A favorite of mine, and one a lot of players love is giving a character their own words and vocabulary and speech. And this is a great way to keep someone in character too.

Slipperychicken
2016-02-26, 01:56 AM
Have you had experience with this type, and how do you guide them to be better roleplayers?

I've helped a few players grow out of problematic behaviors, so hopefully I can help you too. If you're aware of the concept of "Socialization", some of this may ring a bell.


First off, I strongly advocate coaching new players on tabletop roleplaying etiquette. As with the written rules of a game-system, a player must be properly instructed in the many unwritten rules of tabletop gaming. Without that instruction, a player is liable to pick up all kinds of bad habits, which is especially problematic when said habits are reinforced by the group's laughter or tacit acceptance.

For the best impact, you want to do this either long before your player gets into a game, or immediately upon the first violations. That immediacy will help you ensure that he never gets the idea that problem-behaviors are acceptable. It's important to go over each common pitfall or problem-behavior. For each one, help your player understand what the behavior is, precisely how and why it is undesirable, any exceptions that may exist, how you can avoid it, and what should be done instead. It helps to go over desirable behaviors in a similar way; show what behaviors are good, why they're good, when they're not so good, and how to do them best. Encourage your player to ask any and all kinds of questions if he's unsure (there's no such thing as a stupid question, after all), as that can help mitigate uncertainty and allow him to feel involved in the learning process.

I think it is absolutely essential to treat tabletop etiquette as a matter of teaching a friend how to play a game. Be calm, as if you were reminding your friend how to compute his attack bonus. When someone breaks a rule he wasn't aware of, it is not productive to get mad at that person. You don't want to reinforce bad behavior, but you don't want to be harsh either. Instead, you should calmly help your friend learn what the rules are, and how to follow them properly.


EDIT: Also, don't be so solemn about it. The last thing you want is to make your player feel like his girlfriend is telling him "we need to talk". You're here to have a good time, and at the end of the day it's just a game, so be friendly and open.