Pathfinder Dreamscarred Press Introduces Lords of the Wild- The Playtest! [Archive]

Lix Lorn

2016-02-24, 03:34 PM

Thoughts of mine, courtesy of my very specific areas of focus (usually fluff and versatility):
-Silver Bullets. This is cool, but there's absolutely no mention or provision for churches that say 'werewolves? oh snap have some of our blessed silver.' It must happen sometimes, after all - and using the assumption that it doesn't as a balancing point is Not Smart, if that was the idea.
-It bugs me that it takes 'society rejects werewolves all the time' as a given, although I suppose that's a genre staple.
-...similarly, Did You Know that the 'alpha' idea has been disproven? wolf packs don't actually work like that. But the idea is way too embedded in the public consciousness to abandon, so this is a useless point. :smallwink:
-"At 8th level, an unshackled rager gains the trip special attack". This might be my lack of pathfinder familiarity, but shouldn't this be Improved Trip, or Improved Grab, or something other than just trip?
-Silverblade Hunter is kinda underwhelming. I'm probably expecting too much from an archetype, but "silverblade hunters are those who have trained in the use of true silver, refining their skills beyond those of normal warriors by taking advantage of the weightlessness native to their prefered metal." made me expect some Really Awesome Stuff, and what I got was... well, useful, I guess, but... well. Does Mithral Weapon Training let you dual wield two handed weapons? That'd be fun, I guess, although the aesthetic is all wrong.
It's also worth noting that this is a straight buff to fighter. They /technically/ lose heavy armor, but in return they get to wear heavy mithral armor as medium armor, so... the advantages literally negate the disadvantages.
But then. Fighter. :smallwink:
-I love shifting feats. I love this kind of feat tree that expands on itself. Delicious. 10/10.
-Blade Breaking Hide 11/10. Cinematic.
-Envenomed Fangs, "Living creatures normally immune to ability score damage or poison effects are still affected by this ability." ...why? There's no fluff reason for this, I mean. It /is/ a poison effect. I guess this is a balance thing, akin to 'everything has fire immunity', but... ech. Personally I'd use the fluff of the lycanthropic curse to explain the ability damage, and say that's why it bypassed immunity.
-Primal Surge, "equal to your Initiation Modifier." Is Initiation Modifier a thing? I thought I remembered a PoW person talking about how there's not a mechanical definition of the term, and it's /awkward/ to make one. I may be thinking of something else, though, sorry if I'm wrong.
-Trample, "You may make a free overrun attempt against that creature that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and uses your Knowledge (Nature) in place of the combat maneuver check."
This could be another 'Lixie doesn't know pathfinder balance' thing, but in 3.5 this would worry me a lot. Skill checks are really really easy to get to the moon. but then it's only an attack roll with +1d6 damage, so it's not a huge issue.
-Bristle. Presumably this maneuver stops the movement they triggered your reaction with, but it probably wants to specify that their current movement is stopped. If so, do they lose their move action? Do they move until they're 30ft away then stop? do they move until 30ft away then can keep moving as long as they stay 30+ft away?
-I googled Bullete to check if it was a thing and there were three pictures of a land-shark-bullet thing, so I'll assume that's what you meant and it's not a Bulette typo. ^_^''
-Chimeric Body Stance, "When you enter this stance, choose four of the following natural attacks: 2 claws 1d4 (primary), 2 slams 1d4 (primary), bite 1d6 (primary), gore 1d6 (primary), 2 hooves 1d4 (secondary), 2 tentacles 1d4 (secondary), or tail slap 1d6 (secondary). " To clarify, is '2 claws' two of your four attacks, or one choice?
-Dragon's Breath. I think it should scale. I'm aware that this is not a popular thought and... why am I even saying this you can't break the rule /now/.
-Kraken's Grasp gives me the same worry as Trample.
-Overall it's great! I'd use this discipline happily. It's worth noting that most Path of War stuff feels a little undertuned to me, so this may be a bit stronger than usual.

Overall it's pretty great though. :)

Edit: Friend pointedd out he shorthand for Rampage includes a stacking -2 penalty to hit. The textblock does not. It's better without, imo, it's gonna be underwhelming with it.

Vhaidara

2016-02-24, 03:45 PM

Focusing on stuff i did

-"At 8th level, an unshackled rager gains the trip special attack". This might be my lack of pathfinder familiarity, but shouldn't this be Improved Trip, or Improved Grab, or something other than just trip?

Actually, trip is the ability that lets you make a trip attempt on hit.

-Silverblade Hunter is kinda underwhelming. I'm probably expecting too much from an archetype, but "silverblade hunters are those who have trained in the use of true silver, refining their skills beyond those of normal warriors by taking advantage of the weightlessness native to their prefered metal." made me expect some Really Awesome Stuff, and what I got was... well, useful, I guess, but... well. Does Mithral Weapon Training let you dual wield two handed weapons? That'd be fun, I guess, although the aesthetic is all wrong.
It's also worth noting that this is a straight buff to fighter. They /technically/ lose heavy armor, but in return they get to wear heavy mithral armor as medium armor, so... the advantages literally negate the disadvantages.
But then. Fighter. :smallwink:

As you mentioned, fighter :smalltongue:

The other thing it does is actually enable heavily armored dex characters, since you can wear mithral full plate and use your full Dex bonus. Since it is intentionally compatible with PoW:E's Myrmidon, you can access Iron Pikeman Attitude to treat your armor as light. Or you could stay on a Str build and dual wield two handed mithral greatswords with Prodigious TWF.

Basically, you can use speed over strength with a lot of things you normally can't. And it gives Mithral a purpose as a weapon material.

-I love shifting feats. I love this kind of feat tree that expands on itself. Delicious. 10/10.

Thank you. They were my first really big idea for this book, and I'm glad they came out looking good.

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-02-24, 03:58 PM

I'll second the silverblade being a bit boring. The Silver Balladeer bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/silver-balladeer-bard-archetype) is another archetype that focuses on silver stuff; maybe exchanging a bonus feat for something similar to Silver Mastery?

The shifting feats remind me of the damnation feats from Champions of Corruption. The more you take the more they benefit you.

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-24, 04:00 PM

Thoughts of mine, courtesy of my very specific areas of focus (usually fluff and versatility):

Feedback is always appreciated!

-Silver Bullets. This is cool, but there's absolutely no mention or provision for churches that say 'werewolves? oh snap have some of our blessed silver.' It must happen sometimes, after all - and using the assumption that it doesn't as a balancing point is Not Smart, if that was the idea.

So, this one is something I borrowed from Slavic (iirc) myths about werewolves, which required the silver to be stolen from the church, not given freely. Since I have to be careful about hitting too close to home with the real world religions I may have played this a little close to the chest. It's still open to adjustment though.

-It bugs me that it takes 'society rejects werewolves all the time' as a given, although I suppose that's a genre staple.

It is a genre staple, for better or worse. Though there are sections that account for werewolves being accepted in society (or perhaps, will be). It's one of those things that is tricky to balance properly.

-...similarly, Did You Know that the 'alpha' idea has been disproven? wolf packs don't actually work like that. But the idea is way too embedded in the public consciousness to abandon, so this is a useless point. :smallwink:

Oh yes, I'm aware. Natural wolf packs form through continuing familial bonds. Artificial wolf packs (those created to try and save wolf populations) do follow the "alpha" system. And werewolf packs are anything but natural :smalltongue:

-"At 8th level, an unshackled rager gains the trip special attack". This might be my lack of pathfinder familiarity, but shouldn't this be Improved Trip, or Improved Grab, or something other than just trip?

Well, you're right to be confused. See, there's the Trip combat maneuver, which is improved by the feats Improved Trip and Greater Trip, the trip weapon quality, which does basically nothing and The trip special ability for monsters, which allows a free trip attack when you hit with the natural weapon that has the trip special ability.

-Blade Breaking Hide 11/10. Cinematic.

I'm fond of it too :smallsmile:

-Envenomed Fangs, "Living creatures normally immune to ability score damage or poison effects are still affected by this ability." ...why? There's no fluff reason for this, I mean. It /is/ a poison effect. I guess this is a balance thing, akin to 'everything has fire immunity', but... ech. Personally I'd use the fluff of the lycanthropic curse to explain the ability damage, and say that's why it bypassed immunity.
[QUOTE=Lix Lorn;20463864]-Primal Surge, "equal to your Initiation Modifier." Is Initiation Modifier a thing? I thought I remembered a PoW person talking about how there's not a mechanical definition of the term, and it's /awkward/ to make one. I may be thinking of something else, though, sorry if I'm wrong.

Chimera Soul is more for general shapeshifting rather than being werewolf specific. It's fluff is not tied to werewolves, so justifying the maneuver's effectiveness via werewolf curse doesn't work because you don't need to be a werewolf to use it.

As "One of the Path of War guys" I can assure you that Initiation Modifier is indeed a thing. It's the mental (or other) ability score you use to determine how many maneuvers you recover and their save DC. It's usually spelled out in the Maneuvers Readed section of the appropriate class/archetype.

-Trample, "You may make a free overrun attempt against that creature that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and uses your Knowledge (Nature) in place of the combat maneuver check."
This could be another 'Lixie doesn't know pathfinder balance' thing, but in 3.5 this would worry me a lot. Skill checks are really really easy to get to the moon. but then it's only an attack roll with +1d6 damage, so it's not a huge issue.

Skill Checks are easy to pump up, but CMD (the effective DC you're trying to meet with the skill check) also scales sky high, but only on monsters. It's been thoroughly vetted over the last two years, don't worry.

-Bristle. Presumably this maneuver stops the movement they triggered your reaction with, but it probably wants to specify that their current movement is stopped. If so, do they lose their move action? Do they move until they're 30ft away then stop? do they move until 30ft away then can keep moving as long as they stay 30+ft away?

The best way I can describe it is to think of Bristle like putting up an impassable wall of some sort. It doesn't interrupt the enemy's movement, just dictates where they can and can't go. I'll fiddle with the wording though.

-I googled Bullete to check if it was a thing and there were three pictures of a land-shark-bullet thing, so I'll assume that's what you meant and it's not a Bulette typo. ^_^''

That might still be a spelling error on my part. I'll double check, thanks.

-Chimeric Body Stance, "When you enter this stance, choose four of the following natural attacks: 2 claws 1d4 (primary), 2 slams 1d4 (primary), bite 1d6 (primary), gore 1d6 (primary), 2 hooves 1d4 (secondary), 2 tentacles 1d4 (secondary), or tail slap 1d6 (secondary). " To clarify, is '2 claws' two of your four attacks, or one choice?

The 2 claws is currently counted as ONE of your four attacks. This may change as more feedback comes in.

-Dragon's Breath. I think it should scale. I'm aware that this is not a popular thought and... why am I even saying this you can't break the rule /now/.

Dragon's breath unfortunately can't scale. But I'm looking at ways to give it more oomph. This may be more dice, or it might be rider effects. We'll see.

-Kraken's Grasp gives me the same worry as Trample.

Kraken's Grasp is one I'm keeping an eye on. It's an attempt to grapple without having to look up the grappling rules, but the Skill check vs. CMD thing is not terribly unbalanced.

-Overall it's great! I'd use this discipline happily. It's worth noting that most Path of War stuff feels a little undertuned to me, so this may be a bit stronger than usual.

Overall it's pretty great though. :)

I'm glad you're enjoying it so far. Please feel free to keep the feeback coming!

Deadkitten

2016-02-24, 04:13 PM

Hmmmm.....beast swipe might be a bit good as written for a first level maneuver.

That's all I can really say about it so far.

Vhaidara

2016-02-24, 04:20 PM

I'll second the silverblade being a bit boring. The Silver Balladeer bard archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/silver-balladeer-bard-archetype) is another archetype that focuses on silver stuff; maybe exchanging a bonus feat for something similar to Silver Mastery?

Eh, silver mastery is kind of pointless when you get a free mithral (aka silver++) weapon, and the counting as cold iron is just off for the archetype.

EDIT: that was an awkward place to miss a letter

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-24, 04:29 PM

Hmmmm.....beast swipe might be a bit good as written for a first level maneuver.

That's all I can really say about it so far.

One of the things that makes Chimera Soul interesting (and tricky) is that it has to be balance around characters who both have and lack the appropriate natural weapon to initiate the maneuvers. Generally this means about a 2-6 point difference in damage potential, but for some maneuvers it can be more. Beast Swipe is one of those maneuvers, but it's also the kind of thing that ages well and having a few of those around is something I think is good for the game overall.

Troacctid

2016-02-24, 04:41 PM

The 2 claws is currently counted as ONE of your four attacks. This may change as more feedback comes in.
That seems confusing.

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-24, 04:44 PM

That seems confusing.

It has to do with pathfinder's formatting of certain natural attacks as pairs or individual. It's complicated but I'll try and work out something that makes sense.

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-02-24, 04:53 PM

Eh, silver mastery is kind of pointless when you get a free mithral (aka silver++) weapon, and the counting as cold iron is just off for the archetype.

EDIT: that was an awkward place to miss a letter

If its set in stone that the fighter has to use mithral, why not let him DO things with mithral rather than just make it easier for him to use things?

AoiEMT

2016-02-24, 05:03 PM

If its set in stone that the fighter has to use mithral, why not let him DO things with mithral rather than just make it easier for him to use things?

I'm guessing the intention is to pair this with the fighter archetype that's grants maneuvers and taking the mithral current discipline.

Though does silver vulnerability stack?

Sayt

2016-02-24, 05:10 PM

Unexpected! But not unwelcome.

A few notes, as I read through:

-The Change Shape Universal Monster Rule calls for a Polymorph affect to be referenced. Pro forma rules thing, but it also informs the specific mechanical effects of the shapechange. Of course, if you don't want it to be, one of the extant Polymorph Spells, you can just write your own.

-My understanding of the Alpha/Beta etc pack structure thing is that it's mostly a human construct imposed on our perceptions of wolves in captivity. Packs in the wild are generally family groups, and aggressive dominance competition is a by-product of force co-habitiation between non-relatives. That said, this is a fantasy game, with Werewolves, so just my 2c. Addressed

-Wrath of the Blood Moon: If a creature possesses only one natural weapon, that natural weapon deals +50% damage anyway. If one has Wrath of the Blood Moon and Vicious Bite/Mighty jaws (as opposed to one of the Claw granting abilities), would that werewolf gain +100% Power attack damage?

-Secret of the Shared Soul: Should this feat have the psionic tag? I mean, it applies to psionic manifestation.

-Unshackled Rager:
--Unchained Rage, very nice, I approve.
--The damage delay is a nice blast from the past of 3.5, but I think what really made it then was, IIRC, that you got a to hit bonus when you had damage "In the pipe", a mechanic I think is quite flavourful for a raging character. I like Savagerry later on though, that's a nice mitigation mechanic.
--That said, I don't like constant Freedom of Movement. At all. I hate hardcounters and thing that just say No. I'd much prefer a strong bonus to CMD vs Grapple and CMB to take initiate/gain control of a grapple. But then, that doesn't mean that FoM isn't a thing.

-Silverblade hunter:
--Instinctive: Maybe throw them their choice of Sense Motive or Perception as a class skill as well? both very important for hunting Lycans
--Mithral Armament seems a little wonky. it's equivalent on Gunslinger works because the setting assumes that guns are rareified. What about a Longsword being made of Mithral makes it harder to use? Also, can the Silverblade hunter select a weapon he's not proficient with?
--Mithral Armour Training: This just seems really odd. Mithral armour is hugely expensive (Medium costs +4k), and only strongly dex-focused characters are going to favour Mithral over +1/2 armour at the levels this is relevant. Furthermore the "One size category Lighter" thing seems a little odd. So a L3 Fighter with a Mithral Breastplate counts the Breastplate as weighing as if it was sized for a small creature? That seems... incredibly niche, considering Mithral already makes a weapon lighter.
--Mithral Weapon Training is just cool, I like this a lot. But what happens when the Fighter gets to Weapon Training 2? Does he take Advance weapon trainings or get no benefit? I'd perhaps require AWTs from WT2 onwards.

-Varsärks:
-Wolf's Rage is interesting, though I'd throw in some flavour text to make it clear that you're in a Hybrid form.
-Coat of Winter: Very cool ability. It only affecting him, but not allies adjacent seems a little odd, but what the hey.
--Class makes me think of Amon Amarth's Live For the Kill. Nice.

-Shifting Feats: I like the scaling affects, like the Damnation Feats, but not evil only!
--Strongclaw shifting: Should probably note that it's 1d4 for medium sized creatures.

Chimera Soul looks interesting, although I'm surprised the Primal Disciple doesn't get access.
--Chimeric Body Stance: I don't really understand the restriction against gaining multiple sets of similar type natural weapons? What's wrong with emulating the Girallon, or Cerberus? The only thing I can think of is that it gives better returns from Weapon Focus, but I'm pretty sure we all know Weapon Focus is kinda garbage. is there a reason I've missed? (Edit: This was predicatred on 2 claws being two choices)
--Kraken's Grasp: Very cool fluff, interesting concept, but...a random sampling of CR11 monsters show CMDs of 30-40. 11 ranks, 3 from class skill and 2-5 from ability mod gives you 14-19 or so, needing a 15 to get this on the first go. The duration (Special, see text), the text doesn't actually say when it ends. I'm guessing it's supposed to when you fail to entangle? Perhaps make this a straight CMB check with a fractional bonus per rank in K.(Nature)? (Edit: I didn't know that the Knowledge Pendant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pendant-knowledge) was a thing, yikes)
--Lamia's Sting: No mention of strength damage, which some other attacks granted by temporary natural weapons do mention. Maybe some standardisation/clarification is needed?
--Unleashed Dragon Stance: ....ok, I can definitely dig it.
--Rampage: Holy crap this is pretty cool, and nicely breaks the mould away from some of the "Fullattack with +Damage" and "Singlestrike SoD" 9ths.

Chimeric soul is very cool for a wild, rapid shapeshifting combat form, which is a thing I've wanted to see for a while.

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-24, 05:37 PM

Unexpected! But not unwelcome.

A few notes, as I read through:

-The Change Shape Universal Monster Rule calls for a Polymorph affect to be referenced. Pro forma rules thing, but it also informs the specific mechanical effects of the shapechange. Of course, if you don't want it to be, one of the extant Polymorph Spells, you can just write your own.

The wording was pulled pretty much exactly from the Lycanthrope template which does not specify a polymorph spell either.

-Wrath of the Blood Moon: If a creature
possesses only one natural weapon, that natural weapon deals +50% damage anyway. If one has Wrath of the Blood Moon and Vicious Bite/Mighty jaws (as opposed to one of the Claw granting abilities), would that werewolf gain +100% Power attack damage?

By RAW, no. I may end up looking at borrowing some wording from Dragon Style if necessary.

-Secret of the Shared Soul: Should this feat have the psionic tag? I mean, it applies to psionic manifestation.

Probably. I'll get to fixing that.

-Varsärks:
-Wolf's Rage is interesting, though I'd throw in some flavour text to make it clear that you're in a Hybrid form.
-Coat of Winter: Very cool ability. It only affecting him, but not allies adjacent seems a little odd, but what the hey.
--Class makes me think of Amon Amarth's Live For the Kill. Nice.

Varsark don't enter hybrid form. They fully transform into a wolf, per the spell beast shape of whatever relevant level. This PrC is based a bit on 3.5's bear warrior like that. I'm glad you like it though.

Chimera Soul looks interesting, although I'm surprised the Primal Disciple doesn't get access.
--Chimeric Body Stance: I don't really understand the restriction against gaining multiple sets of similar type natural weapons? What's wrong with emulating the Girallon, or Cerberus? The only thing I can think of is that it gives better returns from Weapon Focus, but I'm pretty sure we all know Weapon Focus is kinda garbage. is there a reason I've missed? (Edit: This was predicatred on 2 claws being two choices)
--Kraken's Grasp: Very cool fluff, interesting concept, but...a random sampling of CR11 monsters show CMDs of 30-40. 11 ranks, 3 from class skill and 2-5 from ability mod gives you 14-19 or so, needing a 15 to get this on the first go. The duration (Special, see text), the text doesn't actually say when it ends. I'm guessing it's supposed to when you fail to entangle? Perhaps make this a straight CMB check with a fractional bonus per rank in K.(Nature)? (Edit: I didn't know that the Knowledge Pendant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/pendant-knowledge) was a thing, yikes)
--Lamia's Sting: No mention of strength damage, which some other attacks granted by temporary natural weapons do mention. Maybe some standardisation/clarification is needed?
--Unleashed Dragon Stance: ....ok, I can definitely dig it.
--Rampage: Holy crap this is pretty cool, and nicely breaks the mould away from some of the "Fullattack with +Damage" and "Singlestrike SoD" 9ths.

Chimeric soul is very cool for a wild, rapid shapeshifting combat form, which is a thing I've wanted to see for a while.

The discipline accesses are still subject to change, though remember anyone can gain access through Unorthodox Method or the (upcoming) martial tradition.

Chimeric Body Stance (and other maneuvers) restriction comes from me not wanting to deal with Kali builds and the fallout of that. If someone gains 4 additional sets of arms because they're in Chimeric Body Stance, they'd have the option of quad wielding greatswords. While that's fun and all, it doesn't fit the theme of the discipline at all and causes a lot of complaints.

Kraken's Grasp and other skill check maneuvers have a fair number of boosts available in the form of items and feats. For example, just taking Skill Focus (K. Nature) nets you a +6 by the time this rolls around. And I see you found the Knowledge Pendant too.

Unleashed Dragon Stance and Rampage are tons of fun for me. I liked the opportunity to cut loose a little bit with them.

EDIT: Lamia's sting doesn't do strength damage. It's a fort save or paralyze.

Vhaidara

2016-02-24, 05:43 PM

-Unshackled Rager:
--Unchained Rage, very nice, I approve.
--The damage delay is a nice blast from the past of 3.5, but I think what really made it then was, IIRC, that you got a to hit bonus when you had damage "In the pipe", a mechanic I think is quite flavourful for a raging character. I like Savagerry later on though, that's a nice mitigation mechanic.
--That said, I don't like constant Freedom of Movement. At all. I hate hardcounters and thing that just say No. I'd much prefer a strong bonus to CMD vs Grapple and CMB to take initiate/gain control of a grapple. But then, that doesn't mean that FoM isn't a thing.

I was trying to stay with the Unshackled theme. If you look at both that and the capstone, there's a thee later on in the class of "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED." The goal here was less of noping grapple and more noping casters dropping debuffs

-Silverblade hunter:
--Instinctive: Maybe throw them their choice of Sense Motive or Perception as a class skill as well? both very important for hunting Lycans

All Wisdom based skills are class skills for a Silverblade Hunter

--Mithral Armament seems a little wonky. it's equivalent on Gunslinger works because the setting assumes that guns are rareified. What about a Longsword being made of Mithral makes it harder to use? Also, can the Silverblade hunter select a weapon he's not proficient with?

Currently working on wording to make them proficient with the weapon of choice. The wonkiness comes from me wanting to avoid stupid stuff like dipping into the class and selling it for a stupid amount of money at level 1.

--Mithral Armour Training: This just seems really odd. Mithral armour is hugely expensive (Medium costs +4k), and only strongly dex-focused characters are going to favour Mithral over +1/2 armour at the levels this is relevant. Furthermore the "One size category Lighter" thing seems a little odd. So a L3 Fighter with a Mithral Breastplate counts the Breastplate as weighing as if it was sized for a small creature? That seems... incredibly niche, considering Mithral already makes a weapon lighter.

I think you misunderstand. It's one category lighter. So the Mithral Breastplate is treated as Light armor for all purposes, including proficiency. It's not treated as one category smaller.

--Mithral Weapon Training is just cool, I like this a lot. But what happens when the Fighter gets to Weapon Training 2? Does he take Advance weapon trainings or get no benefit? I'd perhaps require AWTs from WT2 onwards.

Well, hypothetically, he could take other weapon categories, i guess. Don't see any reason to lock him out of those. Heck, maybe he wants to pick up archery. But most people will be going for AWT if they have the book anyways.

-Shifting Feats: I like the scaling affects, like the Damnation Feats, but not evil only!
--Strongclaw shifting: Should probably note that it's 1d4 for medium sized creatures.

Good catch, will fix now

MilleniaAntares

2016-02-24, 05:48 PM

It has to do with pathfinder's formatting of certain natural attacks as pairs or individual. It's complicated but I'll try and work out something that makes sense.
How about, "you may choose X options from the following: 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail, etc"?

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-24, 05:50 PM

How about, "you may choose X options from the following: 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 tail, etc"?

That wording might work better. I'll get to it when I get a chance.

Troacctid

2016-02-24, 05:55 PM

I like the werewolf template. It's pretty appealing for the equivalent of a single level. I would strongly consider taking it on a lot of characters.

Is Song of the Wyrd Howl meant to affect only spells, or is it supposed to include spell-like abilities as well?

The Unshackled Rager can technically enter a lupine frenzy multiple times per combat, but I can't imagine why they would want to—as soon as the first one ends, they're fatigued, like, forever, and even if the combat lasts long enough for the fatigue to wear off, re-entering a frenzy doesn't give you any more temporary HP.

Is the Varsärk's Endure Elements meant to be self-only? As written, it functions like the spell, except that it's continuous...which should mean that you can use it on anyone you touch to permanently give them the benefit. Perhaps instead say that the Varsärk is constantly under the effect of Endure Elements.

Superior Rabid Bite doesn't replace the effect of Rabid Bite, so any time you hit with a bite attack, the target makes two saves, once of which is totally pointless.

Feral Vitality seems quite strong to be available at such low levels, even with the feat tax. I'm surprised it doesn't have more prerequisites (not even Con 13?). The shapechanger subtype doesn't seem like much of a barrier. I'm not familiar with a lot of the non-core Pathfinder material—is fast healing normally this easy to get?

Extra Shifting should probably require you to have another shifting feat.

I have a hard time imagining anyone taking Swiftwing Shift for just the bonus to Fly checks. Either you have two other shifting feats or you're just not going to take it.

Shifting feats in general seem like they'll just always be on in every combat, unless you're very low level, have very low Con, and/or are facing an unusually high number of encounters per day. Also, question, since shifts use the lowest duration, does that mean if I activate a 1 hour shift, and then half an hour later activate a 2 round shift, both of them wear off after 2 rounds, or is that only if I activate them both as part of the same shift? It's also not clear which benefits of shifting feats only function during a shift—the answer can't be "All of them" because that would make Rapid Shifting quite pointless.

Milo v3

2016-02-24, 06:04 PM

Alphas, betas, omegas, alpha benefits,
Ugh.... why incorporate misconceptions *facedesk*

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-02-24, 06:07 PM

Ugh.... why incorporate misconceptions *facedesk*

That was mentioned above.

Sayt

2016-02-24, 06:07 PM

The wording was pulled pretty much exactly from the Lycanthrope template which does not specify a polymorph spell either.

Hmm, looking at the Lycanthrope, Werewolf statblock from B1, it lists the ability as

SQ change shape (human, hybrid, and wolf; polymorph)

By RAW, no. I may end up looking at borrowing some wording from Dragon Style if necessary.

Dragon style dealt with increasing strength modifier and the non-stacking of ability bonuses, this is Power Attack damage. Which I think would apply, and from the sound of you did intend so? I'm just asking cause a 1:6 power attack ratio is...a lot.

Varsark don't enter hybrid form. They fully transform into a wolf, per the spell beast shape of whatever relevant level. This PrC is based a bit on 3.5's bear warrior like that. I'm glad you like it though. Ahh, I see. Interesting. I guess I was still in werewolf mode thinking.

The discipline accesses are still subject to change, though remember anyone can gain access through Unorthodox Method or the (upcoming) martial tradition.

Chimeric Body Stance (and other maneuvers) restriction comes from me not wanting to deal with Kali builds and the fallout of that. If someone gains 4 additional sets of arms because they're in Chimeric Body Stance, they'd have the option of quad wielding greatswords. While that's fun and all, it doesn't fit the theme of the discipline at all and causes a lot of complaints. Throw a line in the Chimeric Soul header paragraph reading "Claws, tentacles et cetera granted by this discipline are not prehensile and cannot be used to effectively wield weapons."?

Kraken's Grasp and other skill check maneuvers have a fair number of boosts available in the form of items and feats. For example, just taking Skill Focus (K. Nature) nets you a +6 by the time this rolls around. And I see you found the Knowledge Pendant too. This is true, but I'm not entirely sold on "If you want to take this maneuver, you have to optimise for it to have a snowball's chance in hell", especially when the discipline seems light on skill replacers, compared to perhaps Scarlet Throne or Thrashing Dragon.

Lamia's sting doesn't do strength damage. It's a fort save or paralyze. Does this go for the rest of the Sting Line?

I was trying to stay with the Unshackled theme. If you look at both that and the capstone, there's a thee later on in the class of "I WILL NOT BE STOPPED." The goal here was less of noping grapple and more noping casters dropping debuffs

Hmm, You still can't go through Walls, you can still be waves of exhaustioned, but I'll admit it does stop a fair few things. I think I understand a little better now.

All Wisdom based skills are class skills for a Silverblade Hunter
....I swear that wasn't there when I read it first, but it does solve it nicely.

Currently working on wording to make them proficient with the weapon of choice. The wonkiness comes from me wanting to avoid stupid stuff like dipping into the class and selling it for a stupid amount of money at level 1. That seems entirely reasonable.

I think you misunderstand. It's one category lighter. So the Mithral Breastplate is treated as Light armor for all purposes, including proficiency. It's not treated as one category smaller.
Mithral already does this though? Does it stack, bringing heavy down to 'light' armour?

Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations.
'Other limitations' is, well, kinda broad, and would seem to include proficiency. I'm not sure if this ability...does anything?

Well, hypothetically, he could take other weapon categories, i guess. Don't see any reason to lock him out of those. Heck, maybe he wants to pick up archery. But most people will be going for AWT if they have the book anyways.

Well, MWT wouldn't logically apply to, say, Mithral Firearms, Mithral Javelins, and bows firing Mithral-headed arrows, and therefore be covered under MWT?

Thanks for the prompt replies you guys, the playtest looks very cool!

Vhaidara

2016-02-24, 06:07 PM

The Unshackled Rager can technically enter a lupine frenzy multiple times per combat, but I can't imagine why they would want to—as soon as the first one ends, they're fatigued, like, forever, and even if the combat lasts long enough for the fatigue to wear off, re-entering a frenzy doesn't give you any more temporary HP.

That verbage is a mix of standard and unchained Rage. The Temp HP thing came from unchained rage, so it inherited the limitations, but you're still able to go in and out if you for some reason need to.

Superior Rabid Bite doesn't replace the effect of Rabid Bite, so any time you hit with a bite attack, the target makes two saves, once of which is totally pointless.

Fixed

Feral Vitality seems quite strong to be available at such low levels, even with the feat tax. I'm surprised it doesn't have more prerequisites (not even Con 13?). The shapechanger subtype doesn't seem like much of a barrier. I'm not familiar with a lot of the non-core Pathfinder material—is fast healing normally this easy to get?

Precedent was a Bloodforge feat with type restrictions.

Extra Shifting should probably require you to have another shifting feat.

Good point on the idiot proofing

I have a hard time imagining anyone taking Swiftwing Shift for just the bonus to Fly checks. Either you have two other shifting feats or you're just not going to take it.

I mean, Shifting feats are generally meant to be taken as a group. And Swiftwing evolves into one of the strongest, netting a solid fly speed.

Shifting feats in general seem like they'll just always be on in every combat, unless you're very low level, have very low Con, and/or are facing an unusually high number of encounters per day. Also, question, since shifts use the lowest duration, does that mean if I activate a 1 hour shift, and then half an hour later activate a 2 round shift, both of them wear off after 2 rounds, or is that only if I activate them both as part of the same shift? It's also not clear which benefits of shifting feats only function during a shift—the answer can't be "All of them" because that would make Rapid Shifting quite pointless.

The point of Rapid Shifting is to preserve your swift, and ultimately to let you do it defensively.. The bolded is the correct interpretation.

Some of the shifting feats have the tag to allow people to enhance existing Shifting feats without adding more. For example, if someone just wanted flight and claws, they could take Swiftwing and Strongclaw, then Extra, Rapid, and a utility like Longstride or Beasthide to get their 5. I acknowledge that not all shifting feats are created equal, but they all still serve a purpose.

Mithral already does this though? Does it stack, bringing heavy down to 'light' armour?

'Other limitations' is, well, kinda broad, and would seem to include proficiency. I'm not sure if this ability...does anything?

IIRC, it doesn't work for proficiency, so if you wore mithral Full plate, you'd still take ACP to attack rolls.

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-02-24, 06:34 PM

My only complaint with the Feral Vitality feat was that its possible for a Skinwalker to pick it up.

Mehangel

2016-02-24, 06:50 PM

My only complaint with the Feral Vitality feat was that its possible for a Skinwalker to pick it up.

I actually like that skinwalkers can pick it. But on the topic of Feral Vitality, what if it too was a (shifting) feat? I could see it grant fast healing equal to the number of (shifting) feats you possess.

Troacctid

2016-02-24, 07:05 PM

I mean, Shifting feats are generally meant to be taken as a group. And Swiftwing evolves into one of the strongest, netting a solid fly speed.
Well, yes, but it's always going to be at least your third shifting feat, right? Taking it when you can't fly seems like a trap, since the bonus on Fly checks obviously won't do anything before you have the ability to fly, so I'm a little surprised that it's even an option.

Also worth noting that since maneuverability in PF just represents a bonus or penalty to Fly, having both a Fly bonus and a maneuverability upgrade is probably redundant.

What if the base benefit instead gave you, like, a bonus to Acrobatics checks made to jump, or reduced falling damage, or something like that? That way, there'd be some reason to use it even if you don't already have two other shifting feats, and you'd still have the Fly bonus wrapped into the maneuverability upgrade.

Precedent was a Bloodforge feat with type restrictions.
I'm not familiar with Bloodforge, but the feat seems pretty strong compared to Paizo material. I don't usually have a problem with fast healing being available to players, but it is definitely surprising to see it this easily available as an always-on ability at such a low level. My instinct would normally be to give it a "Must be 7th level" type of prerequisite, or some other form of level-gating, considering how powerful it is.

Edit: It would be a nifty shifting feat as well.

The point of Rapid Shifting is to preserve your swift, and ultimately to let you do it defensively..
My point is, if shifting feats only grant you their benefit while you're shifting, it doesn't function correctly, because it only lets you shift faster when you're already shifted—not very useful. This is pretty easily patched by adding a "While using this shift..." type of clause on the other feats (which also has the side benefit of making them read slightly more clearly), so that "You only gain the benefits of shifting feats while shifted" doesn't need to be a general rule.

The bolded is the correct interpretation.
The text could definitely be clearer on this point, then.

Nyaa

2016-02-25, 07:59 AM

Feats:
Feral Vitality: Overflowing Life got another qualifying subtype, kitsune and changelings are happy.

Shifting feats:
Is it really necessary to have duration on most of them?
Senses shift is probably needed.

Chimera Soul:
What's the point of imaginary natural attacks? Strikes from most other disciplines can be initiated with 2d6 twohander, and Chimera's damage dice don't look impressive.

Primal Fang: too strong for level 1 boost.
Primal Surge: too weak for level 2 boost. Even for level 1 one.

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-25, 08:25 AM

Chimera Soul:
What's the point of imaginary natural attacks? Strikes from most other disciplines can be initiated with 2d6 twohander, and Chimera's damage dice don't look impressive.

Primal Fang: too strong for level 1 boost.
Primal Surge: too weak for level 2 boost. Even for level 1 one.

The point of imaginary natural attacks is that you won't be prevented from using your maneuvers if you're in the wrong stance or otherwise lacking the natural attack needed to initiate the maneuver. I expect most people will be using the stances in combination with their own natural attacks to maximize the effectiveness of the maneuvers, but if you find yourself in a position where you're unable to do so, you can still initiate the maneuver.

Nyaa

2016-02-25, 08:46 AM

Should have worded it better. Why maneuvers that require specific natural attacks don't grant these attacks with regular damage dice for initiating that maneuver?

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-25, 08:57 AM

Should have worded it better. Why maneuvers that require specific natural attacks don't grant these attacks with regular damage dice for initiating that maneuver?

Because doing that would take up a lot of space due to the need to specify the damage of each natural weapon granted by each maneuver in each maneuver's description. The stances do a much better job of handling the "grow natural weapons" bit because they're designed to be persistent effects.

Florian

2016-02-25, 08:59 AM

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-25, 09:29 AM

Well, interesting to read but in my opinion, somehow flawed. Somehow, I´m missing some clear and conceive interaction with the basic rules framework here.

The whole playtest document rides heavily on the "Marry Shelly/Gothic Theme" but doesn´t really provide answers to some questions. For example, wielding pure silver weapons has no trigger condition on when you could contract lycantrophy (like, for example, being handled equally to Poison Use), the whole "Contracting Lycanthrophy" thing with a fixed DC of 15 is somehow a joke and delegates that to be a low-level thread for most martial classes, and so on.

For the rituals, I would prefer them to be more in line with the basic ritual rules we have right now (Occult Adventures, Hell Unleashed) instead of being based on some teamwork feats.

Could you expand on what issues you're having with pure silver vs. lycanthropy? I really don't understand what you're getting at, werewolves have DR/silver, that's why it's a weakness for them. Merely handling it does nothing, nor do I really think it should.

As for the werewolf bite, that's entirely based on the 1st party lycanthropy template which has the exact same effect with the exact same wording. It's also not the only option for contracting the werewolf template, alternative rules are included in the same section.

Florian

2016-02-26, 04:12 AM

Could you expand on what issues you're having with pure silver vs. lycanthropy? I really don't understand what you're getting at, werewolves have DR/silver, that's why it's a weakness for them. Merely handling it does nothing, nor do I really think it should.

As for the werewolf bite, that's entirely based on the 1st party lycanthropy template which has the exact same effect with the exact same wording. It's also not the only option for contracting the werewolf template, alternative rules are included in the same section.

Slight misunderstanding. The section is labeled "Origin of the Wolf" but has remedies to it included and intermixed.
You mention surviving a silver bullet to the heart as potential cure if you survive (how?), contrast that to damning yourself in the process of stealing blessed silver (What´s that? And how are you damned?)
I was under the impression that said damnation is keyed to lycanthropy.

Sayt

2016-02-26, 05:09 AM

Slight misunderstanding. The section is labeled "Origin of the Wolf" but has remedies to it included and intermixed.
You mention surviving a silver bullet to the heart as potential cure if you survive (how?), contrast that to damning yourself in the process of stealing blessed silver (What´s that? And how are you damned?)
I was under the impression that said damnation is keyed to lycanthropy.

Shot trough the heart with a silver bullet is just one of those weird werewolf legends. it "Kills the werewolf, and saves the man".

Stealing the silver is contextual, and not directly related to lycanthropy. The damnation is from the evil act of stealing from a goodly church.

Knight Magenta

2016-02-26, 11:06 AM

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-26, 12:03 PM

I'm honestly not a huge fan of being able to remove the template long after it has been applied. It seems like a mean move to do to a player, basically an ultra permanent negative level, and it seems too easy to solve a problem with an NPC. So silver bullet + breath of life instantly solves unwanted wolf problems.

I feel that eventually the curse should fill your very soul and become irremovable without high-level magic like wish.

These are intended to be optional cures, with a variety of them available to allow you to customize these werewolves to fit with your setting and the game you want to run. I plan on adding more later, and the final product will include language to make their status as options more clear. So if it's something that you want to alter or adapt to fit your game better, please feel free to do so.

Knight Magenta

2016-02-26, 02:10 PM

There was a pathfinder Society scenario that involved curing a werewolf. I'm not sure how much of it was our DM improvising but he implied that we had to use wolfsbane before the next full moon. We captured the wolfman and force fed him wolfsbane until he got better. I later realized that wolfsbane is a Con poison; I felt really sorry for the poor guy.

I would really like some DM guidance on how to drop a werewolf into a party that otherwise does not have templates.

ghanjrho

2016-02-26, 02:55 PM

Azoth

2016-02-26, 03:52 PM

I have to admit I am enjoying the idea that for at most 1 trait and two feats a character can pick up Fast Healing 2. This is due to Chimera Soul giving the required subtype to anyone who knows a single maneuver from it.

The shifting feats seem fun, though I am sad at the incredibly short duration for expanding oneself two size categories (just 2 rounds per shift). It is nice that works regardless of creature type though.

I am looking forward to getting a chance to test out Chimeric Soul in an upcoming game. I think it will make for an interesting character. Spontaneously growing random natural attacks should be fun.

SwordChucks

2016-02-26, 06:22 PM

Azoth

2016-02-26, 07:23 PM

I love it so far, but I feel like it's missing out on an opportunity for a werewolf bard archetype with perform: howl. Maybe a relentless tracker ranger or werewolf monks using self discpline to hold back the beast inside.

I guess I'm really asking "Are there any plans for more archetypes?"

Maybe trade Favored Terrain for a free shifting feat at each instance for the animal companions. Trade Endurance for spells, powers, maneuvers, veils, ect to affect the animal companion at 30ft. Trade Evasion/Improved Evasion for the animal companion to benefit from Track, Swift Track, Woodland Stride, and Hide in Plane Sight if within 30ft of the Ranger.

It would thematically show a deep bond between the lycanthrope and its animal companion by sharing its ability to shift and alter its form with the companion. It also demonstrates a more pack minded mentality by giving up on abilities that only benefit itself by sharing its more passive abilities with its animal companion. It affects a fair number of abilities, but not enough to disqualify the archetype from being used with others.

digiman619

2016-02-26, 07:50 PM

So you did Vampire, now you're doing Werewolf... All you need is Frankensteins and/or Mummies, and you guys will be the World of Darkness of Pathfinder! :smalltongue:

Milo v3

2016-02-26, 07:56 PM

Anlashok

2016-02-26, 08:52 PM

Cool supplement so far.

I was worried that given the werewolf centric title there wouldn't be much content for the werecapybaras, wereskunks and werepelicans I use in my games, but a lot of this stuff is very ubiquitous, easily refluffed, and decently well tuned.

I'm not terribly impressed with the discipline's power, but that almost feels intentional and the maneuvers are generally interesting enough.

digiman619

2016-02-26, 09:27 PM

So you did Vampire, now you're doing Werewolf... All you need is Frankensteins and/or Mummies, and you guys will be the World of Darkness of Pathfinder! :smalltongue:

*Looks at DSP's Monster Classes doing Demons, Fey, Flesh Golems, Mummies and Ghosts*

Guys, I think we've figured out their secret plan! Their logo should have been the first sign. ILLUMINATI CONFIRMED!!!!!

TiaC

2016-02-26, 11:19 PM

I think the Pack rituals and feats could be improved. The flavor is strong, I have no problems there. However, I'm not sure what is required to use them and how that will interface with actual games.

I can come up with a few interpretations: First, as long as they can learn them from a werewolf, any group can preform a ritual. Second, as long as there is one werewolf, a pack can be formed and complete a ritual, but the alpha must be a werewolf. Third, only werewolves can be members of a pack or participate in rituals.

If you meant the third, I encourage you to reconsider. These are interesting and flavorful touches, and restricting them to games with multiple werewolves seems like a mistake. It is hard to get a group together like that, and it restricts the use of this book with Lords of the Night, even though they would work so well together. If you are concerned about making them too accessible, I would encourage the second option above with an additional restriction of a feat, trait, or ritual to have a non-werewolf join the pack.

I also am a little concerned about the power of Song of the Wyrd Howl. This is very powerful with all-day buffs, and the Alpha Benefit is just amazingly good.

CGNefarious

2016-02-26, 11:42 PM

Now I'm all excited for Lords of the Pit (Demons) and Lords of the Scale (Dragons) and Lords of the Void (needs no explanation).

digiman619

2016-02-27, 12:36 AM

Now I'm all excited for Lords of the Pit (Demons) and Lords of the Scale (Dragons) and Lords of the Void (needs no explanation).

Naw, he hasn't seen print in years. Ob Nixilis is the new Demon baddy nowadays.

Beowulf DW

2016-02-27, 12:41 AM

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-02-27, 08:54 AM

All right, let me just say that I'm glad you guys are still trucking.

However, being unaware of the vampire stuff, when I heard "Lords of the Wild," I got my hopes up for a Druid/monk prestige class that would let me pull off what Rafiki did in the last fight scene of The Lion King. My hopes were dashed. :smallfrown:

Yeah, I will say my mind would spring to werewolves easier with "Lords of the Moon." Even Paizo does that; Blood of the Night dealt with vampires/dhampir, and Blood of the Moon dealt with lycanthropes/skinwalkers. Then again, Lords of the Moon could sound like something actually dealing with moon-royalty... One misconception or the other, I guess.

Beowulf DW

2016-02-27, 03:02 PM

Yeah, I will say my mind would spring to werewolves easier with "Lords of the Moon." Even Paizo does that; Blood of the Night dealt with vampires/dhampir, and Blood of the Moon dealt with lycanthropes/skinwalkers. Then again, Lords of the Moon could sound like something actually dealing with moon-royalty... One misconception or the other, I guess.

Moon royalty...Somebody would have gotten their hopes up for Sailor Moon, and then we're back to the same problem.

Ninjaxenomorph

2016-02-27, 03:12 PM

Make way for the MOON-PEOPLE!

digiman619

2016-02-27, 03:22 PM

Moon royalty...Somebody would have gotten their hopes up for Sailor Moon, and then we're back to the same problem.

I would love to see a Magical Girl class for Pathfinder... but then again, I'm weird.

Milo v3

2016-02-27, 05:55 PM

I would love to see a Magical Girl class for Pathfinder... but then again, I'm weird.

That's one of the vigilante archetypes of ultimate intrigue weirdly enough.

Anlashok

2016-02-27, 06:02 PM

It's not the end of the world but I have to agree on the naming stuff.

When I first read Lords of the Wild I assumed it had to do with either barbarians and druids (etc) or some sort of beast-race supplement that did something with gnolls and centaurs and lizardfolk and stuff.

Not a huge deal tho.

SwordChucks

2016-02-27, 07:32 PM

I'll be running an encounter soon involving a werewolf. I had already statted it up, but I'll be remaking it with these rules to test them out.

digiman619

2016-02-27, 08:04 PM

I would love to see a Magical Girl class for Pathfinder... but then again, I'm weird.

That's one of the vigilante archetypes of ultimate intrigue weirdly enough.
Well now I have to buy that one...

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-27, 08:38 PM

Well now I have to buy that one...

If I could make a recommendation, the aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) by Dreamscarred Press makes a pretty fantastic magical girl and is arguably the most flexible class build-wise that we've published.

Prime32

2016-02-27, 08:50 PM

It would be cool to see some anti-werewolf weapons in here. I have an image of a weapon designed for high-level Silverblade Hunters...
A blob of quicksilver which can reshape itself into any weapon with which you're proficient (excepting complex weapons like crossbows, firearms and technological items). It counts as mithral, has the agile, dueling and psychokinetic burst properties, is immune to the broken condition, and possibly is faster to draw or sheathe. It's mildly poisonous, dealing 1 point of Str and Dex damage per hit... but it's a contact poison, so it also affects the wielder unless they have a good Fort save or are a Silverblade Hunter (who are immune).
Maybe alternate uses for silversheen, like mixing it into bombs, or force-feeding it to a werewolf to weaken them?

If I could make a recommendation, the aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) by Dreamscarred Press makes a pretty fantastic magical girl and is arguably the most flexible class build-wise that we've published.There's also the Chosen One (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/chosen-one-paladin-archetype) paladin archetype.

Some tropes really need a campaign structured around them to pull off, though, like "your powers destroy the evil in people without harming them".

digiman619

2016-02-27, 09:47 PM

If I could make a recommendation, the aegis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis) by Dreamscarred Press makes a pretty fantastic magical girl and is arguably the most flexible class build-wise that we've published.

Well, a) I already own a copy of Ultimate Psionics, and b) I always got an Iron Man vibe from the class rather than Magical Girl. I suppose if there was an archetype that traded away Astral Juggernaut for something interesting, then I'd see it, but as is, not so much.

Anlashok

2016-02-27, 10:29 PM

Why does Astral Juggernaut prevent you from being a magical girl?

digiman619

2016-02-27, 11:02 PM

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

upho

2016-02-27, 11:40 PM

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?Well, this one's at least pretty magically badass IMO: http://img07.deviantart.net/3e77/i/2014/261/9/2/tank_girl_big_gun_by_blitzcadet-d7zmnvq.jpg

And btw, the latest posts in this thread are just hilariously weird and fun. :smallbiggrin: You guys rock!

digiman619

2016-02-27, 11:47 PM

Well, this one's at least pretty magically badass IMO: http://img07.deviantart.net/3e77/i/2014/261/9/2/tank_girl_big_gun_by_blitzcadet-d7zmnvq.jpg

That doesn't count and you know it!:smallannoyed:

Prime32

2016-02-27, 11:55 PM

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?
If you mean as in the party role, probably this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG1Mq9JjXGg) :smalltongue: If you mean as in "can take a lot of punishment" then all the time.

If you don't like the heavily-armored image, just say it's harder to move in because it's a long dress or something.

digiman619

2016-02-28, 12:03 AM

If you don't like the heavily-armored image, just say it's harder to move in because it's a long dress or something.

Fair enough. I'll keep that one in mind next time I run an Aegis...

upho

2016-02-28, 12:40 AM

That doesn't count and you know it!:smallannoyed:Yeah, I did... :smallredface: But hey, can't blame a guy for trying?

On the topic of the new stuff for howlin' furries packing a bite: Isn't the template a bit weak for the CR +1? I mean, even when considering the additional options, I think for example both the Giant and especially the Advanced simple templates gives a natural attack focused build quite a bit more in return for the delayed level progression. But maybe this will prove wrong once more options are in place.

Speaking of options, I made the following two feats, originally for an intelligent large wolf (magical beast) "Sacred Fang" (ie Sacred Fist warpriest) NPC, and I think they might fit with the whole pimped-out bite attack thing this seems to be aiming for:

Ironjaw Watch (Combat)
You focus your attention on keeping an enemy in place and pacified.
Prerequisite: bite attack with the grab and/or trip special attack
Benefit: Whenever you can make your grab or trip special attack with your bite against an adjacent creature, you may choose to take a -4 penalty to the CMB check. If you do, and your Combat Maneuver check succeeds, neither you or the creature you target is grappled or knocked prone, but the target takes a -2 circumstance penalty on all d20 rolls, and you can make your grab or trip special attack as an attack of opportunity whenever the enemy targets a creature other than you with an attack, or attempts to take a 5-foot step, take the Withdrawal action or cast a spell defensively. These effects remain for as long as you remain adjacent to the creature.

Predatorial Advance (Combat)
Like your animal cousins, you are incredibly adept at avoiding the defenses of the large prey you hunt.
Prerequisite: shapechange ability which may turn you into a wolf or other predator?
Benefit: Whenever you charge, your movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from creatures of your size or larger.

I guess these could just as well be maneuvers or stances if that's your preference.

CGNefarious

2016-02-28, 12:50 AM

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

Sayaka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica makes for a pretty good tank in the sense that she can take a lot of hits and keep on going.

ghanjrho

2016-02-28, 06:55 PM

Sayaka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica makes for a pretty good tank in the sense that she can take a lot of hits and keep on going.
Yes, and that ended so well for her.

Shackel

2016-02-28, 08:07 PM

Anlashok

2016-02-28, 08:09 PM

When was the last time you saw a magical girl tank?

I'd say the vast majority of magical girls I've seen can take quite a bit of punishment. Defensive barriers are really, really common.

digiman619

2016-02-28, 09:42 PM

If you mean as in the party role, probably this? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG1Mq9JjXGg) :smalltongue: If you mean as in "can take a lot of punishment" then all the time.

If you don't like the heavily-armored image, just say it's harder to move in because it's a long dress or something.

Sayaka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica makes for a pretty good tank in the sense that she can take a lot of hits and keep on going.

I'd say the vast majority of magical girls I've seen can take quite a bit of punishment. Defensive barriers are really, really common.

Okay, Okay! I get it! Point retracted! :smalleek:

Elricaltovilla

2016-02-29, 09:14 AM

This sounds pretty cool, actually, I'm pretty excited for those Werewolf tribes(they can even be used to represent 'special' packs of wolves with those feats, which is pretty neat).

My main issue so far is that I'd gotten pretty hyped up about Chimera Soul when I first saw it: a shapeshifting discipline all about natural attacks? Amazing concept, especially if you're, say, a Pathwalker Psychic Warrior or an Egoist who is dipping into Zealot for a little more offensive power.

... However, I feel like if you can already gain some of these natural attacks, a good chunk of the strikes feel very wanting until about 4-6th level compared to other disciplines they might use. If you aren't a natural attack fighter, you just gain new problems: you might be gaining a few d6 worth of damage, but the first one's just making up for the damage you lose by using a natural attack in the first place, especially if you aren't wearing an Amulet of Mighty Fists to make them magic, a common heavy DR type lategame. Not to mention not having your enchantments.

Maybe something akin to the Undead discipline which buffed the maneuver if you're already dead from Lords of the Night might help? Even something as simple as "if you already have a natural attack given to you by a strike, increase it's damage die by one" or increasing an enhancement bonus could make Chimera Soul more useful for initiators who had some way to shapeshift or use natural weapons before.

So, you touched on something that I think needs addressing. Chimera Soul's interaction with natural attacks is as follows: If you do not have the appropriate natural attack to initiate the maneuver, you temporarily gain it for purposes of initiating the maneuver, though it effectively becomes a 0d6 weapon. If you have the appropriate natural attack for the maneuver, you initiate it normally using the damage dice from your natural attack just like you would for any other type of attack.

So why did I do things this way? Because the options need to be relatively balanced between those with native natural attacks and those that don't have natural attacks natively. Possessing claw attacks is going to make you better at using Chimera Soul than someone who doesn't have claw attacks because you aren't forced to choose between taking a reduction in damage or entering an appropriate stance. The buff for already having natural attacks isn't, and shouldn't be, more powerful maneuvers but instead is freedom and flexibility that isn't granted to initiators without those natural attacks.

Chimera Soul as a discipline is more centralizing than others, it's not a discipline you ought to just splash into without at least some basic support from your natural abilities or other class features. That doesn't mean it can only be used by natural attackers, just that it requires more investment and synergy. The stances provide the natural attacks that fuel the strikes which are enhanced by the boosts. Chimera Soul wants you to pick up natural attacks and abilities or items to support them. But that's no different than Solar Wind expecting you to carry around an enchanted bow (or ranged weapon of your choice) or essentially the entire game expecting you to have the appropriate magical items for your level ready and available.

Shackel

2016-02-29, 10:56 AM

So, you touched on something that I think needs addressing. Chimera Soul's interaction with natural attacks is as follows: If you do not have the appropriate natural attack to initiate the maneuver, you temporarily gain it for purposes of initiating the maneuver, though it effectively becomes a 0d6 weapon. If you have the appropriate natural attack for the maneuver, you initiate it normally using the damage dice from your natural attack just like you would for any other type of attack.

So why did I do things this way? Because the options need to be relatively balanced between those with native natural attacks and those that don't have natural attacks natively. Possessing claw attacks is going to make you better at using Chimera Soul than someone who doesn't have claw attacks because you aren't forced to choose between taking a reduction in damage or entering an appropriate stance. The buff for already having natural attacks isn't, and shouldn't be, more powerful maneuvers but instead is freedom and flexibility that isn't granted to initiators without those natural attacks.

Chimera Soul as a discipline is more centralizing than others, it's not a discipline you ought to just splash into without at least some basic support from your natural abilities or other class features. That doesn't mean it can only be used by natural attackers, just that it requires more investment and synergy. The stances provide the natural attacks that fuel the strikes which are enhanced by the boosts. Chimera Soul wants you to pick up natural attacks and abilities or items to support them. But that's no different than Solar Wind expecting you to carry around an enchanted bow (or ranged weapon of your choice) or essentially the entire game expecting you to have the appropriate magical items for your level ready and available.

I think I understand what the team was planning in terms of specialization, I just don't think the benefit for specializing in non-Wilds shapeshifting is good enough: excluding your magical items, what does using your own damage dice usually add to one of the maneuver other than... perhaps 2-3 average damage max? Maybe if you're using pre-nerf Feral Combat Training on a high-level Monk-type on top of size increases, but that's still only maybe 10 damage at the most.

While it answers non-natural attack fighters being harmed severely(since it is, as you said, a specialized discipline ala Solar Wind or Broken Blade), it still leaves the problem of even natural attack fighters just not getting that much out of specializing in Chimera Soul--a discipline flavor-wise made for them--in terms of strikes.

Now, in terms of stances, Chimera Soul borders on ridiculous and the boosts are nice(though the 1st and 2nd level boosts look like they should be switched), it's just the strikes I worry about.

Halae

2016-02-29, 06:50 PM

Now, in terms of stances, Chimera Soul borders on ridiculous and the boosts are nice(though the 1st and 2nd level boosts look like they should be switched), it's just the strikes I worry about.
Honestly? I'm totally fine with that. I like the idea of Chimera Soul being a stance discipline. I may be a bit biased in this due to the fact that I dislike rapid transformations, but at the same time it's pretty much the only discipline built around its stances. All the others have 6 disciplines, usually only one or two really good ones - Chimera Soul has five stances that are excellent for their given level. sacrificing the power of strikes to make it a more specialized discipline feels like a good choice to me.

upho

2016-02-29, 07:39 PM

Deathsting Shift has some confusing wording:

Special: At 3 Shifting feats, you may use your sting attack against enemies 5 feet further away, as if your sting were a reach weapon. Gaining +5 ft. additional reach and gaining additional reach "as if a reach weapon" are two different things. They only happen to have the same mechanical result for a medium or small sized creature with a "tall" body shape. So which effect was intended here - "+5 ft." or "as reach weapon" (which scales with size and is dependent on body shape)?

I think the more potent "as reach weapon" option would be powerful but not OP, considering the cost.

Shackel

2016-02-29, 09:09 PM

Honestly? I'm totally fine with that. I like the idea of Chimera Soul being a stance discipline. I may be a bit biased in this due to the fact that I dislike rapid transformations, but at the same time it's pretty much the only discipline built around its stances. All the others have 6 disciplines, usually only one or two really good ones - Chimera Soul has five stances that are excellent for their given level. sacrificing the power of strikes to make it a more specialized discipline feels like a good choice to me.

A good point, I just find it strange for a discipline to specifically have really strong stances, but then everything else being designed to be weak. It feels strangely... meta, I guess? Implicit suggestion that one whole class of maneuvers is just there as filler and you're really just there for another one(rather than there just being fewer of that type to begin with). That might just be me disliking change, then. :smalltongue:

At the same time, I did notice that this discipline is structurally different from the others, so far. I feel like levels 1-3 of a good chunk of disciplines are just plain gamechanging compared to their previous ones(or not having maneuvers at all), but levels 4-6 kind of flatten out before the final third. Chimera Soul, on the other hand, seems to have a more consistent progression. That could be it, too.

SwordChucks

2016-02-29, 09:24 PM

Is Longstride Shift meant to stack with enhancement bonuses to speed? It makes a barbarian with the Swiftfoot rage power pretty fast pretty quickly.

Troacctid

2016-03-01, 07:31 AM

For the werewolf template, it's unclear whether the wild empathy bonus from Lycanthropic Empathy applies to all wild empathy checks or only those made to influence canines. Also, there are some typos in some of the Weapons of the Beast sections. ("This is a primary natural attack that deal [sic] 1d6 points of damage... ")

stack

2016-03-01, 08:18 AM

Elricaltovilla

2016-03-01, 12:45 PM

Balancing a discipline around strong stances and weak strikes doesn't really work though. You can just grab the strong stances and boosts/counters then grab more powerful strikes from another discipline. Seems like a poor concept for balance, though I assume the designers are not trying to do this unless explicitly stated otherwise.

That's called building an initiator, stack. :smalltongue:

You take the strong counters from one discipline (say Mithral Current), the strong strikes from another (say Primal Fury or Scarlet Throne), the strong stances from a 3rd (Elemental Flux) and the strong boosts from a 4th (Riven Hourglass) and you end up with a monstrously effective character. Different disciplines all emphasize different maneuver types to different degrees, which is why lots of people complain about [discipline] doing [thing] better than [other discipline], despite them having similar maneuvers.

It's not the goal of Chimera Soul (or any other discipline) to provide exceptionally strong maneuvers of one type at the expense of maneuvers of other types. There is a little bit of experimentation with Chimera Soul (as there is with every other discipline), with the goal being to provide a discipline with strong intra-discipline synergy. It expects you to invest more heavily in Chimera Soul than probably other disciplines do. Strikes, boosts and stances are all meant to combine together to form a stronger whole within the discipline than without.

But that has to be balanced against the goal of inter-discipline synergy. The whole reason that initiators get access to multiple disciplines is because they're meant to combine maneuvers from multiple disciplines to form a stronger whole (incidentally this is why I get irked by complaints about not liking that different disciplines have stronger or weaker maneuvers of different types at different levels, that's the whole point), and I don't want Chimera Soul to go against that design goal. It very much should not, and will not, be a discipline that punishes you for moving outside of its strictures, instead I want it to provide some (minor, but notable) incentive to emphasize Chimera Soul in builds that wish to use it more than other disciplines. It makes the ratio a little uneven one way or the other, but it won't make it so that you can't or won't look at other disciplines for extra options.

upho

2016-03-04, 08:04 AM

Since I had a couple of hours to spare before going out on my usual nightly howling and snarling rampage around the neighborhood, I decided to try and break the new toys you've brought to the Playground and put together a relatively simple werewolf Unshackled Rager "shifting food processor charger" test build. So here she is, my somewhat cheesy goody-two-shoes multi-armed meat grinder of a pack sister, howling with hunger and soon ready to warm up her monstrous jaws with some balor starters before moving on to the tarrasque:

Ylva Forada Ulfhedinn
- Fyrst ór Grimma Veidarnir -
http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/c_scale,h_300/v1457060357/2caada9ab6647ba31489b44805474354_large_r0dzme.jpg
Unshackled Werewolf Test Build

Ylva means "female wolf" and quite a few people go by that name in Scandinavia even today. (I think I might be her chaotic evil twin; my RL name happens to be the Old Norse word for a (male) wolf :smalltongue:.) Forada Ulfhedinn means, in direct translation, "monster" (forad) "wolf" (ulf) "fur" (hedinn), but ulfhedinn (plur. ulfhednar) was presumably also a term for/title held by the most formidable and ferocious of the viking berserker warriors. An ulfhedinn was regarded as the most elite of warriors and was sworn to Odin (whose name is btw related to the word ódr which means "raging" or "frenzied"), and is described as wearing the pelt of a wolf rather than that of a bear to distinguish himself from lesser "typical" beserkers. And Ylva seemed to fit that description in more ways than one. The "monster" addition just seemed appropriate for a werewolf tiefling with alqarn heritage, tons of weird shifting abilities and about as many deadly and horrifying natural weapons as that of every Australian animal combined. Fyrst ór Grimma Veidarnir, meaning "First of the Fierce Hunters", is just me inventing an Old Norse name/title for "pack alpha" (Fyrst) and the name of Ylva's pack (the Fierce Hunters).

I tried to get it at least somewhat grammatically correct, but despite being a native speaker of one of the languages evolved from Old Scandinavian, I'm far from certain a 10th century viking would've approved... (Vikings obviously had some weird fetish for needlessly complex crap which later generations have since tried to remove from their language, such as enough declensions and grammatical irregularities to cause anyone who's not a linguistics professor a serious headache.)

Werewolf Demon-Spawn Tiefling (alqarn heritage) Unshackled Rager Bloodrager 12, Warlord 3, Lorewarden Fighter 2, Ragechemist Vivisectionist Alchemist 2, Master of Many Styles Monk 1
LG Gargantuan outsider (native, shapechanger)

All values while in bloodrage, Primal Fury Style and Chimeric Body stance, using all shifting abilities (short duration versions), boots of speed, war paint and wands of shield and strong jaw.

Initiative +6 (+4 in Size Shift); Senses blindsight 30 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +36
Indomitable Presence allies within 30 ft. gain the benefits of Diehard and gains +5 morale to Fortitude saves vs. death, fatigue, exhaustion, and poison effects

DEFENSE
AC 46, touch 30, flat-footed 42; +2 vs. AoOs +12 armor, +14 natural armor, +4 shield, +3 dex, +5 deflection, +2 luck, +1 defending, +1 dodge, -2 lupine frenzy, -4 size; +2 dodge
HP 264, 60 temporary, delayed damage pool max 66 112 (10+16d10+3d8) hit die, +140 con, +12 favored class
Fort +34, Ref +21, Will +28; +7 vs. mind-affecting; +7 vs. disease, poison, exhaustion and fatigue; +5 morale to Fortitude saves vs. death, fatigue, exhaustion, and poison effects
DR 3/-, 3/silver; Resist electricity 5, cold 5, fire 5
Defensive Abilities constant freedom of movement, Diehard (stabilize and staggered if between -1 and -24 HP), pale green prism (remove fatigue 2/day if switching ioun stones in wayfinder), Improved Uncanny Dodge

OFFENSE
Speed 115 ft. (255 ft. charging), Fly 100 ft. (225 ft. charging); ignores difficult terrain 30 base, 10 fast movement, 10 skin of proteus, 35 Longstride Shifting, 30 haste (25 Primal Fury Style)
Melee Power Attack, charge: 2 bites +42/+42 (16d6+50 plus trip), deathsting +42 (6d6+50 plus deathsting poison and reposition), gore +42 (8d6+50), 2 proteus claws +42/+42 (8d8+52), 2 savage claws and rake +42/+42/+42 (6d6+52), 2 strongclaws +42/+42 (6d6+55), 2 slams +42/+42 (6d6+50), scorpionsting +42 (6d6+50 plus scorpion poison), 2 hooves +37/+37 (6d6+50) and 2 tentacles +37/+37 (6d6+50); all attacks bypass DR as if adamantine, cold iron, good, magic, lawful and silver.
Space 20 ft., Reach 20 ft., 60 ft. with deathsting (+5 ft. 3 rounds/day)
Attack Abilities and Special Attacks (values incl. Power Attack and charge) Blind Fight, Charge Through (free overrun during charge move, CMB +66), Combat Reflexes (4 AoOs/round), deathsting poison (Fort DC 34, 3d2 Strength damage, 6 rounds), Greater Overrun (AoO if overrun check succeeds by 5+), pounce, Primal Fury Slash (free attack vs. adjacent creature at any point during charge movement), rend (6d6+52), reposition (CMB +72, free on deathsting hit, target must be moved closer), scorpion poison 3/day (Fort DC 27, 1d3 Constitution damage, 6 rounds), trip (CMB +73, free on bite hit)

Greater Lupine Frenzy 33 rounds/day; Shifting free action at any time, 17 uses/day, 2 rounds duration/use in combat

Gambits +6 luck to related d20 rolls; swift to initiate, success = regain 5 maneuvers, failure = -2 on d20 roll for 1 round and regain 1 maneuver
Brave Gambit (1st attack on charge hit = allies gain +5 morale bonus to damage on next attack until next turn)
Sweeping Gambit (trip = AoO vs. tripped with +5 morale bonus to damage)

Maneuvers Readied ?

Spells ?

STATISTICS
Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 50 16 base, 2 race, 2 werewolf, 5 level, 7 Strongclaw Shift, 6 belt, 6 mutagen, 6 Size Shift
Dex 16 14 base, 6 belt, -4 Size Shift
Con 24 14 base, 4 manual, 6 belt
Int 9/7 7 base, -2 race, 4 headband /-2 mutagen
Wis 20 12 base, 2 werewolf, 6 headband
Cha 20 12 base, 2 race, 6 headband
Bab +19, CMB +61 (dirty trick, disarm and reposition +72; overrun +69; trip +76), CMD 76 (78 vs. bull rush and grapple; 87 vs. dirty trick and disarm; 80 vs. overrun; 89 vs. reposition; 91 vs. trip)
Feats Abomination ShiftB, Beasthide Shift, Blind FightB, Charge Through, Combat ExpertiseB, Combat ReflexesB, Deathsting ShiftB, Eschew MaterialsB, Extra Discovery (Vestigial Arm), Greater OverrunB, Greater Trip, Improved Overrun, Improved TripB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Longstride Shifting, Oversized Limbs, Power Attack, Primal Fury SlashB, Primal Fury StyleB, Rapid Shifting, Size ShiftB, Strongclaw Shift, Stunning FistB, Wrath of the Blood MoonB
Skills Perception +36, ?

Alternate Racial Traits Alqarn racial heritage (Large size), Maw or Claw (bite), Prehensile Tail
Traits Fate's Favored, Practiced Initiator

Gear +3 furious dueling amulet of mighty fists and natural armor +5, +1 defending bodywrap of mighty strikes, +5 mithral breastplate and armor kilt, belt (+6 str, dex, con), headband (+4 int, +6 wis, cha), blood reservoir of physical prowess, boots of speed, cloak and pauldrons of the resisting serpent +5, cracked dusty rose prism and cracked incandescent blue sphere (Sense Motive) in ebon wayfinder, cracked magenta prism x2 (Fly, Survival, Use Magic Device), cracked pale green prism x2, gauntlets of the rending skilled maneuver (overrun), jingasa of the fortunate soldier, lens of detection, longarm bracers, luckstone, mulberry pentacle, orange shoanti war paint x4, ring of protection +5, ring of counterspelling (greater dispel magic, CL 20), silver thorny ioun, skin of proteus (claws, +10 ft. speed, Improved Trip), manual of bodily health +4, wand of shield, wand of strong jaw, lotsa gp

So my main worry after my first read was the abundance of relatively easily accessible and combinable natural attacks - the template, the bloodrage archetype, the Shifting feats, and especially the very easily abused stances which don't even require free limbs (such as Furyhorn and Chimeric Body) - plus the many new ways in which to boost them significantly. But I hadn't really expected it to be quite as nutty as the 14 primary and 4 secondary attacks Ylva can make at the end of a charge, all of them gaining the 1.5 x Str bonus to damage. Especially since that's in addition to her many potential additional attacks per round triggered by her free combat maneuvers and the pretty impressive large area melee control capacity those maneuvers enable.

I haven't done any DPR calcs yet, but I don't think I need to, anyone can see Ylva is pretty much guaranteed to one-shot basically anything within her maximum 320 ft. charge range (unless the target has some very strong defenses in place to keep it out of harm's way, like a prismatic orb). And if say one or two less challenging foes are unlucky enough to be standing in or near her charge lane, she has a decent chance to also give those enough of her natural werewolf love to bring them down to negatives in the same turn.

Still, we've all probably seen plenty of level 20 builds a good deal sillier than Ylva. And I think I would've been pretty OK with her being a badass tactical nuke if it also had forced her to make significant sacrifices in other areas, or if her frankly stupid combat prowess had at least been mostly restricted to the highest levels. Unfortunately, she also has really good overall durability, plenty of combat versatility (especially when adding all the spells and maneuvers not yet included), and most importantly, all of her attacks besides the two slams, "proteus claws" and tentacles are actually accessible before level 6... :smalleek:

TL/DR: I think the natural attack fiesta is out of control, and especially the stances throwing out additional attacks like candy need to have a serious talk with the nerfbat.

On the plus side, I really like a lot of the Shifting feats and the related little sub-system. Flavorful and fun, as is in general this take on the werewolf so far.

Shackel

2016-03-04, 04:24 PM

Right. Some disciplines do some things stronger, that is true, but the problem is that the Chimera Soul strikes are weaker. It's not that they're not the Wizards of strikes, it's that they look like the Fighters of strikes. They aren't that good at all until 4th level, and at that point they're... okay.

If you're supposed to invest in it, it doesn't give you that much more than other disciplines to show for it. One might think that for a natural attack-based discipline, it might be full of good full-attack options, strikes and boosts that take advantage of their many weapons(ala Frenzy Strike) or giving a myriad of different things to do with natural weapons. It doesn't, really. Why invest in a single discipline when every other discipline is, for better or worse, front-loaded.

I mean, there's the super stances, but those have already been noted as a bit... much.

And if it's not meant to punish non-natural attack users, it doesn't give any incentive to natural attack users over its competitors. It just makes using it without natural attacks a really, really, really, really bad idea.

Anlashok

2016-03-04, 07:03 PM

Forgive me if I misread something simple, but where is Ylva getting all the extra limbs necessary for all those bites and claws?

upho

2016-03-05, 03:37 AM

Forgive me if I misread something simple, but where is Ylva getting all the extra limbs necessary for all those bites and claws?That's a big part of the issue (unless I have misread something) - just like the attacks granted by metamorphosis (Ylva's proteus claws), the Chimera Soul stances don't require any additional limbs for the attacks they grant. Instead, their only restriction is that they cannot grant you an attack type you already have, meaning you can for example deliver 2 claw and 2 slam attacks with one pair of arms.

Ylva's attacks and their sources/limbs delivering them are as follows:

bite - head, made twice thanks to haste
savage claws and rake - arms/hands (and one leg/foot?)
strongclaws - Strongclaw Shift plus vestigial arms from Alchemical Discovery feature and Extra Alchemical Discovery feat
deathsting - Deathsting Shift (and tiefling prehensile tail?)
scorpionsting* - Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (attached)
proteus claws* - Skin of Proteus metamorphosis
gore* - Chimeric Body stance
slams* - Chimeric Body stance
hooves* - Chimeric Body stance
tentacles* - Chimeric Body stance
*AFAICT, these don't require their own limb or comes with the required limb.

Elricaltovilla

2016-03-06, 01:48 PM

Barring certain exceptions which will (hopefully) be hammered out through this playtest, Chimera Soul maneuvers are not supposed to give you extra limbs with which to make additional natural attacks. Specifically:

When using stances or maneuvers that grant you natural attacks, if you already possess an equivalent natural attack of that type from another source you do not gain additional natural attacks of that type. For example, if you enter Swift Panther Stance while already possessing two claw attacks, you would not gain additional claw attacks from the stance. In such cases, you use the most beneficial version of the natural attack, whether that comes from the maneuver or another source.

And

If you already possess one or more of these natural attacks, you cannot select them a second time to gain additional natural attacks of the same type.

If the wording on those needs to be made more clear to better convey the intent, I'll work on that.

Elricaltovilla

2016-03-06, 05:40 PM

Bit of an aside, but I'll be doing a livestream interview this Tuesday (March 8th) at 8 PM EST on the Twitch Channel ExplodingDice (http://www.twitch.tv/explodingdice). It'll be about 2 hours long and you can come by to say hi or send tweets to @Askren during the show to ask questions. Hope to see you all there!

upho

2016-03-06, 11:10 PM

Barring certain exceptions which will (hopefully) be hammered out through this playtest, Chimera Soul maneuvers are not supposed to give you extra limbs with which to make additional natural attacks. Specifically: /snip/

If the wording on those needs to be made more clear to better convey the intent, I'll work on that.The text you quoted say absolutely nothing about limbs and imposes a completely new and unique limitation based on attack types, which is the main reason why it currently reads like an exception to the general rules for natural attacks. I believe these passages are partially to blame for Ylva's absurd number of attacks, and maybe also for creating some of the balance concerns people have expressed about the Chimera Soul stances.

Since your reply may be an indication that you have missed a few potentially very important details regarding natural attacks, I'll try to explain exactly why the mentioned Chimera Soul texts you quoted are problematic:

The general rules for natural attacks typically limit the number a PC can gain and use during a turn by basically saying (my summary of the relevant RAW):

In order to select an option that grants you a natural attack, you must have the associated limb(s), which cannot already be associated with any other natural attack(s) you possess. Whenever you make the granted natural attack, you cannot use the associated limb to deliver any other attack of any kind during the same turn.*

This is different from, and a lot more limiting than Chimera Soul's "When using stances or maneuvers that grant you natural attacks, if you already possess an equivalent natural attack of that type from another source you do not gain additional natural attacks of that type."

Since Chimera Soul repeatedly makes it really clear that the discipline options specifically cannot grant an attack type you already have, which is both a unique limitation and one that would be (for all practical purposes) redundant if the discipline followed the more limiting general rules, it reads like an exception and thus replaces the general rules. And since the texts also fail to mention anything about limbs at all, the resulting effect is, for example, that Chimeric Body Stance may grant you slam attacks even if you already have two claw attacks and only one pair of arms, which is normally impossible.

In addition, the Chimera Soul text imposes different (although less severe) limitations on natural attacks than the general rules do, and these limitations may have weird effects which are inconsistent with those of the general rules and, when combined with the above, disregards all logic and common sense. For example, if my werewolf PC has four arms and two claw attacks and I gain the Strongclaw Shift or Aspect of the Beast feat, I can use my two free arms to make the granted two claw attacks (which does make a lot of sense, IMO). In contrast, none of the Chimera Soul stances or maneuvers will grant me so much as a single claw attack, even should I somehow possess enough free arms to make an entire army of mariliths green with envy, while an option from the discipline may grant me two slams even if I already have four claw attacks.

In summary, the relevant Chimera Soul text currently reads like an exception to the general rules, having effects that make little sense, are inconsistent with those of the general rules and may disrupt balance, especially in the case of the following natural attack types:

Claws - as mentioned above, these can not be selected if the initiator can already make one or more claw attacks, regardless of any free limbs she may have from other sources, but can be selected even if all of her arms already have natural attack(s) of other types associated with them
Slams - as claws above
Tail slap - can be selected regardless of whether the initiator has a tail from another source, but not if she can already make one or more tail slaps, regardless of any additional free tails she may have from other sources
Tentacle - can not be selected if the initiator already possesses one or more tentacle attacks

*There are of course several exceptions to this general rule in both Paizo and DSP material. Judging from Paizo's FAQ, forum threads, and the most widely accessible/used related PC options, I think two of the exceptions that most commonly impact games are: a) both a bite and a gore attack can be gained and made in the same round by a creature that only have one head, and b) a creature of a PC race typically cannot make claw attacks using its legs/feet, even though a few creatures in the bestiaries make claw attacks with their feet and an eidolon explicitly may add claws to one pair of legs. In the case of DSP material, for example the metamorphosis line of powers may grant you up to three natural attacks of the same type, without requiring any free associated limbs.

My suggestion is that Chimera Soul is changed to conform to the general rules for natural attacks. Meaning the relevant texts quoted from Chimera Soul are replaced with a reminder that the initiator must have the associated limb(s) able to deliver the attack when applicable, as per the normal rules for natural attacks. I would add an exception for tentacle attacks (and I think probably also tail slap or sting attacks), saying these include the limbs required to make the attacks but can not be selected by an initiator that already has the attack type. It might also be a good idea to mention that only one head is required to make both a bite and a gore attack.

And on a related note, the Deathsting Shift feat should probably include a note that you don't need to have a tail in order to gain the sting attack.

....

Fixing the above issues will tone down the potency of the Chimera Soul stances a bit, especially in higher levels by limiting the number of stacking attacks that can be gained from the most flexible options such as Chimeric Body Stance. But unfortunately it won't really address what I believe is a far more serious issue with the natural attack related options in the playtest so far - namely that most of them can be selected at a very early level. For example, a bloodrager 2/alchemist 2/warlord 2 could have the following:

1 bite granted by race
2 claws granted by the abyssal or draconic bloodline 1st level power
2 claws granted by the Strongclaw Shift feat and the vestigial arms from Alchemical Discovery and the Extra Discovery feat
1 sting granted by the Deathsting Shift feat
1 gore granted by the Furyhorn Stance
2 hooves granted by the Furyhorn Stance
Power Attack

So a full attack would include 7 primary attacks at bab +5 and 2 secondary attacks at bab +0, all benefitting from bloodrage and the +4/+2 damage bonus from Power Attack. At level 6. :smalleek:

Besides the potential for creating utterly broken builds from very early levels, I think the the natural attack options so far has a too damage oriented focus, something which has already been done to the death (literally) by martial builds, and especially natural attackers. AFAICT, the only attack options which might have the potential to allow a natural attacker to be somewhat viable in a combat role other than striker are the werewolf's grabbing bite and the reach-pimped Deathsting Shift (if the clarification on the reach goes the way I hope, see my previous post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20484161&postcount=81)). I'd really love to see some options with the potential to render the damage output of a natural attack controller/debuffer more or less irrelevant, without also making such a build any less effective in combat than a damage focused one.

Elricaltovilla

2016-03-06, 11:19 PM

upho

2016-03-07, 06:17 AM

The problem Upho, is that you're seeing the text of Chimera Soul as an exception to the base rules about natural attacks, when in actuality it is an addition to the existing rules to natural attacks. There is no text in Chimera Soul that says that the natural attacks gained from Chimera Soul stances are not meant to follow the existing rules for natural attacks because there is no reason to indicate that they do not because they are not an exception, therefore you are drawing your assumptions based on nonexistent information.From a semantic POV, I believe your logic is flawless. And this is exactly how I would've treated this rule if it had been written by Paizo. So I admit I may have been over-analyzing this simply because it's you and DSP, and I'm sort of primed to being able to follow (and usually agree with) the reasoning and logic behind the stuff you write and DSP rules texts in general.

Anyhow, my point was that if you also consider the mechanical effects of the Chimera Soul text and compare them to those of the general rules, I think there is indeed a very good reason to assume they are an exception. As I wrote in my previous post:

Since Chimera Soul repeatedly makes it really clear that the discipline options specifically cannot grant an attack type you already have, which is both a unique limitation and one that would be (for all practical purposes) redundant if the discipline followed the more limiting general rules, it reads like an exception and thus replaces the general rules.Meaning I see a big sign on Chimera Soul which says:

"If I adhered to the general rules, the limitations I keep repeating would have no real mechanical impact and therefore there would be no reason for me to utter them in the first place. But since I keep repeating them and you know my creator is not only good-looking but also unusually intelligent, the limitations must in conclusion make a significant mechanical difference, which in turn means I cannot adhere to the general rules."
:smallbiggrin:

Thank you for clearing up the issue you were having, and allow me to make it very clear: Chimera Soul maneuvers follow the normal rules for natural attacks, in addition to the rules laid out in the discipline itself.Got it. Thanks. :smallsmile: So what is the purpose/mechanical effect of the additional limitations of Chimera Soul? I'd really appreciate if you (or anyone else who isn't as blind as myself) could give me a simple example or two which could open my eyes.

(The only effects I can think of are either way too minor and applicable to way too few builds to be worth the space the text currently occupies (such as altering the full attacks of a very tiny sub-category of the rare multi-armed builds during maybe a few levels, having them for example include two claws and two slams rather than four claws), or they may only have a meaningful an impact for certain specific builds which are pretty much lost causes and probably not one the intended target groups anyways (such as a natural attack synth or wild shape druid).

Also, some of the more rules-fuzzy attack types Chimera Soul and the Shifting feats offer, such as tail slaps or stings, might need a little clarification on whether they have a limb requirement or come with the required limb.

.....

Regarding the much more serious issue of the early level natural attack insanity, the level 6 build outline in my previous post unfortunately remains completely unaffected by the additional limitations of Chimera Soul.

Elricaltovilla

2016-03-07, 09:12 AM

Got it. Thanks. :smallsmile: So what is the purpose/mechanical effect of the additional limitations of Chimera Soul? I'd really appreciate if you (or anyone else who isn't as blind as myself) could give me a simple example or two which could open my eyes.

(The only effects I can think of are either way too minor and applicable to way too few builds to be worth the space the text currently occupies (such as altering the full attacks of a very tiny sub-category of the rare multi-armed builds during maybe a few levels, having them for example include two claws and two slams rather than four claws), or they may only have a meaningful an impact for certain specific builds which are pretty much lost causes and probably not one the intended target groups anyways (such as a natural attack synth or wild shape druid).

It serves a couple purposes:
1. It's additional padding to prevent Kali builds from using Chimera Soul to gain additional limbs with which to wield greatswords (or the like). Not that I necessarily have a problem with Kali builds, but that would go entirely against the spirit of the discipline.

2. To make it clear how Chimera Soul stances interact with preexisiting natual attacks. Especially in the case of creatures with natural attacks that have a higher damage die than they would normally. It would be unfair to downgrade someone's 4d6 bite to a 1d8 just because they're in Stance of the Sea King.

3. To prevent using edge cases like psychoactive skin of the proteus or the shifting feats being used to get around the limb limitation

4. To encourage people with already existing natural attacks to diversify their choices and pick up some of the less common natural attack types.

Also, some of the more rules-fuzzy attack types Chimera Soul and the Shifting feats offer, such as tail slaps or stings, might need a little clarification on whether they have a limb requirement or come with the required limb.

This is honestly something I've had a bit of trouble with in terms of wording. I'm reluctant to stick Special sections in a bunch of stances but finding a general wording to add to Chimera Soul and the Shifting Feats has been a little tricky. I'm open to suggestions if you have any.

Regarding the much more serious issue of the early level natural attack insanity, the level 6 build outline in my previous post unfortunately remains completely unaffected by the additional limitations of Chimera Soul.

Quite frankly, while impressive, that's not terribly unusual even in 1st party material:

A Ragebred Skinwalker Bloodrager can have 5 natural attacks at level 1 and with Primalist can get 2 additional attacks at level 4. Works much best on the Draconic Bloodline.

Eidolons can have 2 claws, Rake (counts as 1), Bite, 2 hooves (also counts as 1), and pounce by level 6 for a pittance. They'd have room in their build to throw a pair of arms and greatsword (or lance) proficiency in there as well for another attack.

Honestly, ragebred skinwalkers are cream of the crop for natural attack builds since they can get 3 natural attacks at level 1 for a feat.:smallbiggrin:

An unarchetyped Fighter with the shapechanger subtype can get a similar number of natural attacks just through using their feats and bonus feats on Shifting Feats alone. I know because that's one of the baselines we used for testing the shifting feats.

Natural attack builds tend to ramp up very quickly in low levels and then peter off once they run out of natural attacks to pick up. I also noticed that you used Vestigial Arms in your build (missed that before). Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) explicitly states it can't give you extra attacks:

The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).

And yes, that apparently goes for extra natural attacks.

upho

2016-03-08, 08:57 AM

It serves a couple purposes:
1. It's additional padding to prevent Kali builds from using Chimera Soul to gain additional limbs with which to wield greatswords (or the like). Not that I necessarily have a problem with Kali builds, but that would go entirely against the spirit of the discipline. But the general rules already prevent this since none of the attacks currently granted by Chimera Soul will ever give you an additional limb. And if an option will end up granting say a tail to go with a sting, that tail can not ever be used to wield a manufactured weapon or even make an additional unarmed strike. Just as for example Aspect of the Beast, Strongclaw Shift or the Helm of the Mammoth Lord will not ever give you additional limbs. And I honestly don't think many players have assumed that any of those options grant you additional arms or heads, while I do believe a player who disregards these rules is bound to also disregard the "additional padding".

But I can totally understand how wrong it would feel if the discipline somehow became a no-brainer for Kali builds. :smalleek:

2. To make it clear how Chimera Soul stances interact with preexisiting natual attacks. Especially in the case of creatures with natural attacks that have a higher damage die than they would normally. It would be unfair to downgrade someone's 4d6 bite to a 1d8 just because they're in Stance of the Sea King.This would be exactly the same regardless of the additional limitations. (Unless otherwise stated, you are never forced to use a benefit granted by an ability, and thus you're perfectly within your rights to say "No thanks, already got my own!" to things like an inferior bite offered by Stance of the Sea King). But yes, I can see how some people might believe otherwise without a reminder/clarification because of how spells usually work, although I believe there are better solutions for this than the current text (more on this later).

3. To prevent using edge cases like psychoactive skin of the proteus or the shifting feats being used to get around the limb limitationI don't follow. What options/rules text do you believe could encourage a belief that this would be possible? And more importantly, what advantage could be gained?

(I agree that especially the attacks granted by the metamorphosis line of powers may, at least initially, appear as weird exceptions to the general rules, since you don't need to have any specified free associated limbs from other sources in order to gain the attacks. But I don't see how that would somehow make metamorphosis susceptible to abuse with the Chimera Soul options, or say Aspect of the Beast for that matter. Which AFAIK has been perfectly safe from any such attempts, probably because there's nothing to be gained by misinterpreting the RAW.)

4. To encourage people with already existing natural attacks to diversify their choices and pick up some of the less common natural attack types.I don't understand how the additional limitations would affect this aim, because a PC can typically never choose to gain the same natural attack type from more than one attack-granting option anyways, with the exception of metamorphosis which doesn't affect this anyways. Instead, I believe the increased attack diversification is bound to happen by itself as long as the less common natural attack types are offered, since those will typically not require a limb already claimed by a more commonly available option such as claws and thus actually result in additional attacks rather than different attacks. (This is of course also why the rare gore and unique hooves makes the ragepiggy such a strong race for natural attack builds, despite often having less than ideal stat bonuses etc.)

I guess the potential downside of following the general rules is that most natural attack builds with access to Chimera Soul will have nearly the same "basic" set of up to 9 attacks (bite, 2 claws/slams, gore, 2 hooves, 2 tentacles, and tail slap or sting), since this is the maximum number of attacks allowed by the typical maximum number of limbs a PC race may gain. Hmmm... This might make the aasimar the superior race for a natural attacker in higher levels, as it remains the only option granting access to 2 wing attacks AFAIK.

So, all of the above boils down to this: by adhering to the general rules, the limited number of limbs available to a PC creates precisely the same mechanical effect as

"When using stances or maneuvers that grant you natural attacks, if you already possess an equivalent natural attack of that type from another source you do not gain additional natural attacks of that type."

At least in all cases where the Chimera Soul options are relevant. Or in other words, if disregarding point #2 above, why do the Chimera Soul options need the additional limitation, when all of the other "gain X natural attack"-options (such as the mentioned Aspect of the Beast, Strongclaw Shift or the Helm of the Mammoth Lord) seem to work just fine without it?

This is honestly something I've had a bit of trouble with in terms of wording. I'm reluctant to stick Special sections in a bunch of stances but finding a general wording to add to Chimera Soul and the Shifting Feats has been a little tricky. I'm open to suggestions if you have any.Well, how about simply using wording similar to the Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fleshwarped-scorpion-s-tail)? Something like:

Deathsting Shift (Shifting)
Benefit: You grow a tail which you can use to make a Sting attack, dealing 1d4 damage for a medium creature.

This doesn't interfere with any other potential tail or tail-dependent attack the PC might already have (which I don't think it should) and also ties the attack to the limb and vice versa. This does allow for having multiple tail attacks, but since this is already possible with Paizo options and the costs are high, I don't think this will be problematic.

Quite frankly, while impressive, that's not terribly unusual even in 1st party material:Of course. But such builds are even more horribly broken during at least the first levels and should never be used as some kind of "acceptable maximums" IMO. Which is why my wrathblood archetype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) has a max attack limit even harsher than the Un-Eidolon (it can still become capable of wiping the floor with just about any other natural attack build in later levels, but by then probably none of those will be OP). I thought it best to not use a race that stands out as much in my build outline to illustrate how the new options encourages similar early level brokenness (by for example offering Furyhorn stance to match or even supersede the 1st party ragepiggy build by level 5).

In addition, especially the shifting feats gives the ragepiggy easy access to even more options for early level brokenness, while also extending the insane early level rocket tag effects of such natural attackers further up the levels.

A Ragebred Skinwalker Bloodrager can have 5 natural attacks at level 1 and with Primalist can get 2 additional attacks at level 4. Works much best on the Draconic Bloodline.

Eidolons can have 2 claws, Rake (counts as 1), Bite, 2 hooves (also counts as 1), and pounce by level 6 for a pittance. They'd have room in their build to throw a pair of arms and greatsword (or lance) proficiency in there as well for another attack.

Honestly, ragebred skinwalkers are cream of the crop for natural attack builds since they can get 3 natural attacks at level 1 for a feat.:smallbiggrin:I would say it's because the ragepiggy can get 3 attacks that don't compete with other attacks for limbs, all of them difficult or impossible for other races to gain. Although with these new options, this advantage is mostly gone and I think the ragepiggy's going to see some serious competition after a few levels and be surpassed by races such as the tiefling and especially the aasimar in higher levels.

An unarchetyped Fighter with the shapechanger subtype can get a similar number of natural attacks just through using their feats and bonus feats on Shifting Feats alone. I know because that's one of the baselines we used for testing the shifting feats.Yeah, which is a clear sign that something's horribly wrong IMO.

Natural attack builds tend to ramp up very quickly in low levels and then peter off once they run out of natural attacks to pick up.Yeah, or at least they tend to have a rapidly shrinking number of viable options available in order to keep up with weapon wielders in higher levels. But I think a few of those options can even have them increase in power relative to other martial classes. For example, the martial build with the highest DPR (on paper as well as in game) by a large margin ever seen at my table was a high level ragepiggy abyssal bloodrider primalist with MoMS and fighter dips, mounted on a griffon, using only Paizo stuff (and no Leadership). By level 16 or so, that pair would've easily one-shotted the tarrasque in a straight up fight, something I think only perhaps a handful other 1st party martial builds are be capable of. Although that was before the FCT nerf, so yeah, Horn of the Crioshpinx...

Anyhow, I believe this tendency is another good reason for restricting the "unusual attack"-granting shifting feats and Chimera options (like hooves, tails, tentacles or wings) to higher levels, thus offering natural attackers a boost when they actually might need it rather than giving them even more ways to break the game in earlier levels.

I also noticed that you used Vestigial Arms in your build (missed that before). Vestigial Arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) explicitly states it can't give you extra attacks:

And yes, that apparently goes for extra natural attacks.Ah yes. Sorry, I keep forgetting this is the official ruling now (not how it works in my games or any I've played in, although it's also not possible before high levels). :smallredface:

Taveena

2016-03-16, 10:30 AM

How do Rend attacks work with Deadly Agility, incidentally?

Elricaltovilla

2016-03-16, 10:58 AM

How do Rend attacks work with Deadly Agility, incidentally?

I think, by RAW, they would still only do Strength damage, but I will check around to see if there isn't a more concrete answer.

SwordChucks

2016-03-16, 08:33 PM

I would have said no, but after searching I believe you would deal damage based on dex. Deadly agility says you deal dex instead of str while wielding a weapon to which weapon finesse applies, including natural attacks. It doesn't say that you have to hit with the qualifying weapon only that you wield it and deal damage with an attack. I don't think this is intentional but it's what the rules say. Also wield not being a defined game term as far as I can tell makes this muddy.

Rend is referred to as an attack several times in its description and if you deal damage with it, you are almost certainly wielding a natural attack.

upho

2016-03-16, 10:40 PM

How do Rend attacks work with Deadly Agility, incidentally?It seems to me there is no RAW answer to that, only mentions of it usually being Str based:

The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature’s description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Rend-Ex-)So any Rend ability should always detail what the additional damage is (or include a number which makes it obvious in the case of monster statistics). As does for example:

This damage is equal to the damage dealt by one claw attack plus 1-1/2 times the eidolon’s Strength modifier. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons#TOC-Evolutions)

For a PC ability, I'd prefer something like:

"The additional damage is equal to the damage caused by one of the [rending natural attack type] attacks plus 1-1/2 times the [rending natural attack type] attack’s ability score damage bonus (normally Strength or Dexterity)."

EDIT: So in the case of the rend abilities in the playtest, no Dex damage. /EDIT

EDIT:Yes, you do deal Dex damage with Rend using Deadly Agility. Thanks SwordChucks! /EDIT

upho

2016-03-16, 10:54 PM

Rend is referred to as an attack several times in its description and if you deal damage with it, you are almost certainly wielding a natural attack.You're right. I'll edit!

GhorrinRedblade

2016-03-17, 10:55 AM

I haven't had a chance to dig into this stuff yet, but does any of the new material give some lovin' to the feral heart soulknife? I can't even recall now, can you war-soul a feral heart, the better to use the new discipline offered?

Later on,
Ghorrin Redblade

EDIT: looked it over, and the two archetypes are incompatible, blah. Still, here's hoping the new book can present options for feral hearts.

Taveena

2016-03-21, 09:20 PM

Given Ambush Hunter Animal Companions ONLY get Primal Fury, then wouldn't Chimera Soul... just replace that, with no other options?

EDIT: Chimeric Body Stance giving up to eight natural attacks is kind of ridiculous. Gaining a Bite and Gore attack on top of that isn't very hard, at which point Thousand Claws becomes... rather ridiculous.

When using Rampage, can you move 10 feet to attack the same target, or do you need to alternate targets?

Aditus

2016-03-24, 11:02 PM

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but is the Varsaerk supposed to increase the number of rounds per day that a barbarian can rage?

Vhaidara

2016-04-08, 08:50 PM

Hello again everyone, it's been a while. I want to assure you this project is still going, just got a bit sidetracked with RL stuff. However, I come bearing a new present. If you scroll down to the bottom of our document, you'll find a new martial tradition: The Temple of the Formless Spirit, a group of shapeshifting ascetics with a secret goal. Enjoy!

Shadow-Eater

2016-04-10, 05:07 AM

Hey, guys! I realize given the visceral nature of werewolves, they are kinda hard to separate from the martial box and there's really no mental attribute other than Wisdom that makes sense for them. In the interest of diversity, however, alongside the claw and bite form options given with the base template, would you consider adding a pair of natural armor or regenerative (or is regeneration too much a World of Darkness thing?) choices for people who might not want to venture into melee but still play in a werewolf game? You've done a great job with Pack choices already, so it seems like there's at least conceptual room for a werewolf whose hybrid form isn't all that offensively impressive.

Pack of the Night Wind granting low-light vision would be a lot better if almost everything (including all werewolves) didn't have either low-light vision or darkvision already. Any chance we might see that moved into the base template (just in case someone is human) and the Pack's benefit being something more universal? Straight Perception? Some kind of group-enhanced scent that allows for easier/more than just pinpointing?

The unshackled rager (unqualified name suggestion: maybe just Unshackled, I get the chains-of-Fenris association and I wouldn't want to drop it [maybe for Lunatic :P] but "rager" is just kinda awkward): Maw of the Wolf should be before Lupine Frenzy because LF references a bite attack that you haven't heard about yet. I really, really, really like the idea of being a werewolf so hard it's your one true bloodline. Lots of great features too.

Silverblade Fighters are surprisingly cool. My only question is if the category drop for mithral is meant to stack; "modification to the rules" leaves me uncertain if it's just expanding the default mithral application or if you can wear plate like light armor now.

Possibly I'm just not reading closely enough, but since both lycanthropes and werewolves have access to wolf form, what are they getting out of Wolf's Rage I as Varsärks? Otherwise I love it.

I like basically all the feats. I should note that throughout this is really clean and well-designed. I'm looking for bad stuff, but there isn't a lot, taken altogether.

Can you stack shifts, to keep for example your fly speed but also activate your combat package?

I honestly don't care what happens to Chimera Soul as long as you guys keep the 8th-level form of the dragon II stance. The dream. Unf.

But I agree that Chimeric Body opens up too many attacks. But I love the mix-and-match! Would there be a problem in just having it grant, say, one primary (2d6) and two secondary (1d8) attacks and letting you choose the types (tentacle/tentacle/tentacle or bite/hoof/hoof for instance) rather than opening up all those two-weapon packages? You get three good weapons and two good abilities, which is a pretty fair haul for a 6th-level stance, IMHO. Pathfinder has kind of a persistent problem with number of attacks scaling and I don't know that there's a safe, sane, and fun way around it.

I think Thousand Claws is okay. Natural attacks + manufactured weapon routine is worse and that's something you can do already. You're giving up that routine for purity of concept and a complimentary damage boost.

I would suggest considering Style feats for Chimera Soul that give you scaling enchantment on your weapons. Maybe just the basic +1-+5, and then keen in there somewhere, which is okay since natural attacks all share a 20 x2 crit unless a maneuver I wasn't looking at changes that.

Vhaidara

2016-04-10, 06:47 PM

The unshackled rager (unqualified name suggestion: maybe just Unshackled, I get the chains-of-Fenris association and I wouldn't want to drop it [maybe for Lunatic :P] but "rager" is just kinda awkward): Maw of the Wolf should be before Lupine Frenzy because LF references a bite attack that you haven't heard about yet. I really, really, really like the idea of being a werewolf so hard it's your one true bloodline. Lots of great features too.

I'm going to be honest, I've gone back and forth on this one, and it came down to capitalization of all things. Archetype names aren't capitalized, and to me, "unshackled" doesn't look nearly as good as "Unshackled" as a name when I was writing the descriptions. Good call on the ordering though

Silverblade Fighters are surprisingly cool. My only question is if the category drop for mithral is meant to stack; "modification to the rules" leaves me uncertain if it's just expanding the default mithral application or if you can wear plate like light armor now.

The intent on this is to make it fully 1 category lighter. Normally, mithral is lighter for just about everything except proficiency. Silverblades, while they lose their heavy armor proficiency, can get that armor back if they are able to shell out for the mithral heavy armor.

I like basically all the feats. I should note that throughout this is really clean and well-designed. I'm looking for bad stuff, but there isn't a lot, taken altogether.

:biggrin:

Can you stack shifts, to keep for example your fly speed but also activate your combat package?

Yes. When you shift, you can activate as many of your shifts as you want, taking the lowest duration.

Shadow-Eater

2016-04-11, 03:21 AM

Yes. When you shift, you can activate as many of your shifts as you want, taking the lowest duration.

Apologies, I meant "can you activate a 1-hour shift and then half an hour later activate a 2-round shift without cancelling the first shift." Or put a third way, can you expend extra uses to "layer" shift packages so you have both long-duration and short-duration options running simultaneously.

Vhaidara

2016-04-11, 05:36 AM

Apologies, I meant "can you activate a 1-hour shift and then half an hour later activate a 2-round shift without cancelling the first shift." Or put a third way, can you expend extra uses to "layer" shift packages so you have both long-duration and short-duration options running simultaneously.

Ah. Kind of. You only ever have 1 shift duration. So if you had a 1 hour shift running, had 20 minutes left on it, and made a combat shift that lasted 2 rounds, your hour long shift would still be in effect, but it's duration would drop to 2 rounds.

SwordChucks

2016-04-19, 05:30 PM

Vhaidara

2016-04-19, 06:28 PM

I now have three werewolf PCs in my game, so thanks for that :cool:

I was trying to come up with natural attack options for a wereboar. I figured a choice between a gore with bullrush/knockback effects, a gore with dirty trick effects, and likely two bite attacks. I can't think of anything to make the bite attacks better though. Any ideas?

Actually, funny story about that. At the beginning of development when I wrote the template, there was a small disconnect where I thought this was going to be lycanthropes as a whole instead of focusing in on werewolves. When we modified it to focus in on the wolf aspect, the gore option became a bite attack named Mighty Jaws.

So my advice would be to cross out the bite on Mighty Jaws and write in Gore.

For those curious about the other weapons of the beast
Inescapable Claws was originally for Werebear. Yeah, I know, bears are bite focused, but to me the iconic imagery for a werebear always seems to be more focused on those massive tree trunk arms. Followed, of course, by an adorable, spine-crushing hug.

Vicious Bite, obviously, plays to existing PF wolves and their trip tomfoolery. Which is currently killing my party in a PbP game.

Savage Claws, meanwhile, played to the more savage werewolf imagery, the kind that rips through people leaving nothing but a pile of dismembered body parts. Hence rending people in twain, natural weapon pounce, and a rake attack.

SwordChucks

2016-04-21, 02:26 PM

Actually, funny story about that. At the beginning of development when I wrote the template, there was a small disconnect where I thought this was going to be lycanthropes as a whole instead of focusing in on werewolves. When we modified it to focus in on the wolf aspect, the gore option became a bite attack named Mighty Jaws.

So my advice would be to cross out the bite on Mighty Jaws and write in Gore.

Neat, that should save me some time. When I gave my players the option of taking a "level" of werewolf and I showed them the benefits, their only question was "What's the downside?". When they found out there was basically none, I ended up with 3 new werewolves. They're already a gnoll, giant half-orc, and an anthro-wolf so I figured they just got a bit hairier when they shifted. The other PC is playing a Stalker so he will be using Chimera Soul maneuvers.

Overall everyone at my table has gotten some use out of this book.

Anlashok

2016-04-21, 03:13 PM

An anthropomorphic wolf werewolf seems kind of redundant.

Vhaidara

2016-04-21, 03:47 PM

An anthropomorphic wolf werewolf seems kind of redundant.

I mean, I'm in a PbP game with a kitsune werefox right now. Sometimes people want to beast-mode while they beast-mode, so we add some beast-mode to their beast-mode.

SwordChucks

2016-04-21, 08:48 PM

An anthropomorphic wolf werewolf seems kind of redundant.

I don't disagree but it's weird game I run. The group decided that character gets an fur afro when she wolfs-out.

Also, I'd like to point out Bearington Bearman. Redundant? Very. Funny? Undoubtedly.

Adam1949

2016-05-02, 10:02 PM

A quick question in regards to the Varsärk Prestige Class. Would it be too much to allow skinwalkers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp) to take this option in-place of being a true Lycanthrope or Werewolf? The race is directly linked to the legends and mythos of the lycanthrope and is very similar to the Shifter of 3.5 Eberron fame; in addition, nothing of the prestige class actually has anything directly linked to being an actual werewolf, since the Beast Shape abilities happen regardless of if they are a werebear, werecrocodile, etc.

Abithrios

2016-05-04, 06:27 PM

An anthropomorphic wolf werewolf seems kind of redundant.

Especially considering that "anthropo-" and "were-" both basically mean human. The former comes from Greek, while the latter is Germanic in its roots. See also "weregild" or "Man price" the value of a life that a murderer would owe the victim's family.

digiman619

2016-05-06, 01:08 AM

Especially considering that "anthropo-" and "were-" both basically mean human. The former comes from Greek, while the latter is Germanic in its roots. See also "weregild" or "Man price" the value of a life that a murderer would owe the victim's family. Now that line from The Dresden Files makes sense... Thanks!

ATalsen

2016-05-12, 01:28 PM

… allow me to make it very clear: Chimera Soul maneuvers follow the normal rules for natural attacks, in addition to the rules laid out in the discipline itself.

Maybe this has been resolved in a draft that is not online, but looking at the current version of the Chimera Soul Discipline, I'd not seeing a revision that says 'use the normal natural attack rules too'.

My understanding from the posts above is that the natural attack rules are *supposed* to say that you need the limb first before you can 'have' the associated natural attack. I can't really find that, so if that is the case, I'd appreciate anyone point it out to me on the PFSRD!

There is no text in Chimera Soul that says that the natural attacks gained from Chimera Soul stances are not meant to follow the existing rules for natural attacks because there is no reason to indicate that they do not because they are not an exception, therefore you are drawing your assumptions based on nonexistent information.

Assuming that the base rules do require you to have a limb before you can have the attack, I'd say that this part of the current discipline is what would be considering overruling that (even if overruling was not your intension as the author):

"If your form does not currently have this natural attack, you temporarily gain it for use with the maneuver, dealing damage as normal for a natural attack of that type appropriately sized for you."

To me this reads as granting the attack, and if a limb is required to have that attack, then the limb is granted too. If no limb is granted (and thus no natural attack is granted in the case of a missing required limb), then some additional info would be needed to really spell that out.

More Like:
"If your form does not currently have this natural attack, but you have a limb capable of using that attack, you temporarily gain it for use with the maneuver, dealing damage as normal for a natural attack of that type appropriately sized for you. If you do not have an appropriate limb available, you do not gain the natural attack."

This however doesn’t really seem to mesh with the manuvers granting things like sting and tentacles – PCs for the most part aren’t going to have tails and tentacles, so if they can’t gain the attack without the limb, then they can’t get these attacks. Unless they are somehow an exception that was not clarified as an exception?

Or has this all been resolved some other way, and the assumption is that the attacks DO grant limbs when limbs would be needed?

squiggit

2016-05-12, 02:29 PM

That you need a limb for each body part that uses a natural attack is never stated explicitly. Though this (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n88) FAQ mentions that you need a second mouth to make two bite attacks.

stack

2016-05-12, 08:03 PM

So a fighter, monk, or other class with early bonus feats could get a fly speed as early as level 2? Or level one if you get the shapechanger subtype on there? Limited usage so I guess it's not a real problem, except that it is for an hour at a time.

Lycar

2016-05-16, 06:14 AM

The intent on this is to make it fully 1 category lighter. Normally, mithral is lighter for just about everything except proficiency. Silverblades, while they lose their heavy armor proficiency, can get that armor back if they are able to shell out for the mithral heavy armor.

Okay, now THIS is something I personally have a BIG problem with.

In 3.5, mithril already made armours count as 1 category lighter, including proficiencies. Which in effect made Heavy Armour Proficiency pointless. :smallannoyed:

Having Heavy Armour Proficiency was one of the very, very few things that martials like Fighters and Paladins had going for them. Never mind Clerics getting that and full casting.

Pathfinder, in a baby-step towards making martials a bit more worth-while, clarified that you still require the appropriate proficiency to wear heavy armours. Thus, having Heavy Armour Proficiency was actually still worth a damn. Oh and Clerics lost HAP. Not that they need it.

So, either let the archetype keep HAP to begin with or make them cough up the feat like everybody else. Don't make it a 3 level dip class to get heavy armour AC with light armour limitations (that is, none!).

If you want to make the guy get extra benefits from wearing mithral armour, give them a Slam attack instead of having to shell out for armour spikes. Maybe give them a feat that allows them to count the enhancement bonus on armour for the Slam attack maybe.

But never, ever invalidate a class feature. :smallmad:

Vhaidara

2016-05-16, 01:42 PM

Yue Ryong

2016-05-16, 04:41 PM

OK, this is really cool. Quick glance over, initial thoughts:

Shouldn't Pack of the Shared Soul be a Psionic feat, in addition to it's other types?

Shifting Feats are cool, but still not cool enough to get over my distaste for per day options.

Might want to clarify that Return to Nature doesn't let you sunder things not on their person, or else I can foresee people attempting to sunder Phylacteries by hitting the Lich.

EldritchWeaver

2016-05-19, 11:05 AM

The thing to remember is that all nonproficiency does is apply your ACP to attack rolls. At level 3, when you get the ability, the ACP of Mithral Full Plate is -2 (-6 base, -3 from mithral, -1 from Armor Training).

Could it be that you mixed up plusses and minuses? I calculate -10 here.

Vhaidara

2016-05-19, 12:29 PM

Could it be that you mixed up plusses and minuses? I calculate -10 here.

It's kind of weird. You have -6 ACP, which is reduced (my brain says to write as -) by 3 from mithral and 1 from armor training.

ACP = -[6 (base) - 3 (mithral) - 1 (armor training)]

Lycar

2016-05-21, 01:00 PM

What Mithral Armor Training allows is for a Silverblade Hunter to still make use of heavy armor. But they wear it as medium armor, not light. To use it as light, they need access to Path of War: Expanded (either through Martial Training or the Myrmidon archetype) and the Piercing Thunder stance Iron Pikeman Attitude.
So you mean to say the only change is supposed to be the proficiency thing? Then you better clarify the wording because to me this looked liked 'on top of what mithril usually does, it lowers the type another category'...

The thing to remember is that all nonproficiency does is apply your ACP to attack rolls. ... the earliest you can afford it is level 7, at which point you have Armor Training 2, lowering the ACP to -1, 0 if you have armor master. This is a quality of life bonus, nothing more
Uh huh. Still invalidating an entire class feature. What exactly is so atrocious about making people suck up that -1 until they either get 3 more levels or cough up the feat or shell out for the trait? The whole damn point of archetypes is that they offer trade-offs. And given how much stuff this archetype gets compared to other Fighter types...

I mean, come on, on the one hand you give the guy 2 more skill points, allegedly paid for by loss to Heavy Armour Proficiency. And then you go and totally negate the cost by effectively giving it back to them via, here it comes, an alternate class feature. Seriously, whatever way you cut it, this is just dishonest. :smallyuk:

The whole 'limiting Armour Training to mithral armours' thing is way off tp begin with. If anything, make it so that they have proficiency with light armours of all kinds, and medium and heavy armours made from mithril only.

Additionally, lowering it for all purposes creates some nice synergies with abilities that only work in light/medium armor, since now you can wear one category up.
... The only purpose mithril doesn't count as one category lighter already is proficiency. This is a non-argument. :smallsigh:

Now don't get me wrong: I like what you have been doing so far (except for reducing damage resistance... again... just make is scale with level already, sheesh) but I am allergic to taking things away from martial types because they have so little going for them as is. As it is written now, the archetype basically 'pays' for extra skills with a proficiency, except it doesn't matter at all because a class feature makes the lost proficiency irrelevant anyway. That is dishonest and bad design in my eyes.

Just mull it over a bit, I'm sure you can come up with a better way. :smallsmile:

After all, we want this book to be awesome. Can't have those damn leaches all the cool stuff, now can we... :smallcool:

Elricaltovilla

2016-05-21, 05:45 PM

Lycar, would you be willing to restate your issue with the Mithral Armor Training class feature for me please?

I admit, I'm having a little trouble following your thought process, so I'd like to make sure I understand what it is about the class feature that bothers you so we can address your concerns.

Mehangel

2016-05-22, 04:09 PM

Elricaltovilla

2016-05-22, 05:28 PM

It seems that the document doesnt include a martial tradition for Chimera Soul. Is that intended, and/or will one be created?

EDIT: I stand corrected. I did a search for tradition and scrolled through the document, but I did not see it. But it was later pointed out to me.

The Temple of the Formless Spirit is located at the end of the document (starts on page 32) for anyone else who is curious.

EldritchWeaver

2016-05-22, 05:34 PM

The Temple of the Formless Spirit is located at the end of the document (starts on page 32) for anyone else who is curious.

Can you please the word "tradition" somewhere in the document? That's what I'd be looking for to find the text fast on the computer.

Elricaltovilla

2016-05-22, 05:37 PM

Can you please the word "tradition" somewhere in the document? That's what I'd be looking for to find the text fast on the computer.

Consider it done.

stack

2016-06-06, 11:30 AM

upho

2016-06-07, 05:00 AM

Deathsting Shift feat - does this require a tail to gain the benefits? Usually natural attacks require an appropriate limb. Unless the sting is not intended to be tail-dependant. Perhaps this has already been discussed.This is what has been said on the subject so far:
Also, some of the more rules-fuzzy attack types Chimera Soul and the Shifting feats offer, such as tail slaps or stings, might need a little clarification on whether they have a limb requirement or come with the required limb.
This is honestly something I've had a bit of trouble with in terms of wording. I'm reluctant to stick Special sections in a bunch of stances but finding a general wording to add to Chimera Soul and the Shifting Feats has been a little tricky. I'm open to suggestions if you have any.
Well, how about simply using wording similar to the Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fleshwarped-scorpion-s-tail)? Something like:

Deathsting Shift (Shifting)
Benefit: You grow a tail which you can use to make a Sting attack, dealing 1d4 damage for a medium creature.

This doesn't interfere with any other potential tail or tail-dependent attack the PC might already have (which I don't think it should) and also ties the attack to the limb and vice versa. This does allow for having multiple tail attacks, but since this is already possible with Paizo options and the costs are high, I don't think this will be problematic.I still think this suggestion is reasonable for the purpose of dealing with the limbs issue, thereby not shutting out a very large majority of PC races, including all core ones, or limiting access to the few tailed races or PC's of classes able to polymorph, both of which typically need additional natural attack options the least. (At least in theory, any PC could of course eventually get a tail by buying the aforementioned Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail for 18.5 k and getting a bit of surgery to attach it, but that makes the feat's benefits seem largely redundant for most builds concerned.)

But the suggestion unfortunately also further increases the risks of early level rocket tag which plagues natural attack builds even if limited to Paizo options only, offering more options which can create such broken builds. So I'd prefer if this feat also came with a level or bab prereq, and the same goes for all other options in the document which grant a less common natural attack type (ie anything besides bite or claws). I can't really say what would a be suitable such prereq yet, but I guess somewhere around 10th level could be a good starting point for a discussion in the case of Deathsting Shift, as this is when the somewhat comparable Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail might start to become accessible if bought for the listed market price.

Actually, on a second thought, I would really prefer if Lords of the Wild included a paragraph or two with following general info and rules:
A summary of the most relevant rules for natural attacks (which are now spread out among several sources), plus any required additions/clarifications for situations not properly addressed by the current Paizo RAW. This shouldn't waste space by repeating the basics already well covered by the CRB or Bestiary, but focus on the highly relevant but less easily found stuff, such as "you cannot add claw attacks to your feet", "you can make both a gore and a bite attack even if you have only one head" and "unless otherwise stated, an option in this book which grants a natural attack does not also grant any associated limb required to make the attack".
A level-dependent maximum number of attacks, regulating at least primary and secondary natural attacks (and maybe also if combined with weapon attacks) for PCs using any of the options presented in the book. Something similar to the (un)-eidolon's "max attacks" would be OK, but I would rather see a limit which also distinguishes primary from secondary attacks, and preferably starts at 2 primary attacks and ends at no more than 7 primary attacks.

This would hopefully both straighten out most question marks regarding natural attacks, and remove the current potentially serious "early level OP, late level UP" balance issues, finally making natural attackers play nice with other build types during all levels of the game.

What do you think?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-07, 07:14 AM

stack

2016-06-07, 07:27 AM

Paizo ruled you can bite and gore with the same head? Huh. Need to check if that screws up anything in my new book.

upho

2016-06-07, 11:57 AM

A section detailing the most recent rules for natural attacks would only be relevant so long as those rules don't change. Once a new errata or bit of rules text arrives, that entire section becomes effectively useless and would necessitate a reprint or other update in order to maintain relevance. That's something that is, unfortunately, beyond us.Well naturally this kind of "minimum detailed interaction"-policy appears to be the only reasonable way to make Paizo errata at least somewhat manageable for a 3PP. I don't question this. Rather, I'm asking you to clarify the mechanics of the options you've designed and answer the questions those options are most likely to cause, because players won't be able to easily find any clear answers in the Paizo books, and there's a significant risk they'll come to the wrong conclusions unless they actually manage to find all the scattered relevant info and judge it properly.

So in this particular case, I do think the need is far greater than the risks of the text being invalidated/requiring additional updates. And of course this kind of "FAQ and their hard-to-find answers" would have to include something along the lines of "At the time of writing..." and maybe "Please note that these rules have not been designed by the authors of this book or DSP, and any changes are beyond the control of the authors.". More importantly, if Paizo changes the rules in such a manner this section would be affected in a significant way, I'd say chances are pretty high a lot of other content in the book would have to updated anyways. Also, note that I don't suggest detailing all natural attack rules or even the most recent, only the ones least obvious/hardest to find which are also highly relevant to the options in the book.

I think it's easy to forget most of us discussing here are in agreement on how natural attacks work simply because we've already vacuumed rulebooks, the net and our brains for clues and thoroughly discussed how the vague implications and gaps in the RAW should be interpreted, and mostly because we've built and played natural attackers and/or designed new mechanics specifically for natural attackers. Most players haven't, and as I think can be seen in this thread alone, even very experienced and otherwise very rules-savvy players who haven't looked as far into these matters specifically have also often missed potentially important pieces of information. These questions and hard-to-find answers may have been mostly regarded as of little concern or as not requiring anything beyond the occasional rare DM judgement call in most games, since there hasn't yet been any major publication, or even serious class option IMO, focusing primarily on natural attacks for PCs. But as LotW is a book largely consisting of options specifically concerned with natural attacks for PCs (mechanically speaking), the previously rare corner case questions and their hard-to-find answers are very likely to matter quite a lot to the players and DMs who now have a most compelling reason to include natural attack PCs in their game.

Adding a level dependent "max attacks" limit would imply sweeping changes to the base rules system that exists in Pathfinder already, something far beyond the scope and ability of a book like Lords of the Wild or a company like Dreamscarred Press to do. Something like that should be handled entirely by Paizo, not us.Oh, I'm certainly not suggesting you introduce a max attacks limit applying to PCs in general, that would indeed be far beyond the scope and ability of DSP. I'm suggesting you introduce a limit specifically for the PCs that use the options in the book, just as only the eidolon is affected by its limit. Because a PC with access to the many options in LotW which grant natural attacks, is in just as dire need of a max attack limit as an eidolon which has access to the many evolutions which grant natural attacks, especially during earlier levels.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-07, 12:31 PM

Upho, if either of these options were logistically feasible I would support adding them to the book. This isn't a case of shooting down your suggestions because I disagree with them, it's a question of what is realistically feasible given the resources available.

Well naturally this kind of "minimum detailed interaction"-policy appears to be the only reasonable way to make Paizo errata at least somewhat manageable for a 3PP. I don't question this. Rather, I'm asking you to clarify the mechanics of the options you've designed and answer the questions those options are most likely to cause, because players won't be able to easily find any clear answers in the Paizo books, and there's a significant risk they'll come to the wrong conclusions unless they actually manage to find all the scattered relevant info and judge it properly.

So in this particular case, I do think the need is far greater than the risks of the text being invalidated/requiring additional updates. And of course this kind of "FAQ and their hard-to-find answers" would have to include something along the lines of "At the time of writing..." and maybe "Please note that these rules have not been designed by the authors of this book or DSP, and any changes are beyond the control of the authors.". More importantly, if Paizo changes the rules in such a manner this section would be affected in a significant way, I'd say chances are pretty high a lot of other content in the book would have to updated anyways. Also, note that I don't suggest detailing all natural attack rules or even the most recent, only the ones least obvious/hardest to find which are also highly relevant to the options in the book.

I think it's easy to forget most of us discussing here are in agreement on how natural attacks work simply because we've already vacuumed rulebooks, the net and our brains for clues and thoroughly discussed how the vague implications and gaps in the RAW should be interpreted, and mostly because we've built and played natural attackers and/or designed new mechanics specifically for natural attackers. Most players haven't, and as I think can be seen in this thread alone, even very experienced and otherwise very rules-savvy players who haven't looked as far into these matters specifically have also often missed potentially important pieces of information. These questions and hard-to-find answers may have been mostly regarded as of little concern or as not requiring anything beyond the occasional rare DM judgement call in most games, since there hasn't yet been any major publication, or even serious class option IMO, focusing primarily on natural attacks for PCs. But as LotW is a book largely consisting of options specifically concerned with natural attacks for PCs (mechanically speaking), the previously rare corner case questions and their hard-to-find answers are very likely to matter quite a lot to the players and DMs who now have a most compelling reason to include natural attack PCs in their game.

The fact is that this suggestion, while great in theory, implies a level of commitment that is beyond the ability of DSP and myself to promise. Print orders of Lords of the Wild would suffer the worst. We simply can't afford to constantly reprint material. PDFs would require constant monitoring to update the existing rules text, or reissuing of errata on a repeat basis. Including that rules text also includes a promise to keep it up to date, and that is a commitment of time, money and resources that we can't afford.

Oh, I'm certainly not suggesting you introduce a max attacks limit applying to PCs in general, that would indeed be far beyond the scope and ability of DSP. I'm suggesting you introduce a limit specifically for the PCs that use the options in the book, just as only the eidolon is affected by its limit. Because a PC with access to the many options in LotW which grant natural attacks, is in just as dire need of a max attack limit as an eidolon which has access to the many evolutions which grant natural attacks, especially during earlier levels.

And then people who don't use the rules in this book will still be able to spam their natural attacks with uncapped impunity and the perceived value of the material this book brings to the table decreases as a result. If I'm being completely honest, I tend to err on the side of allowing GMs to make necessary houserules in order to better tailor material that fits their games. For many people, the plethora of natural attacks available isn't a problem, and they were able to get said attacks long before this book became available. Adding a maximum attack limit to Lords of the Wild doesn't fix the problem that already exists, assuming it even is a problem (as that opinion varies from table to table).

upho

2016-06-07, 12:51 PM

Paizo ruled you can bite and gore with the same head? Huh. Need to check if that screws up anything in my new book.AFAIK, Paizo devs have said very little which directly addresses this. Though IIRC, maybe three years back or so, Jason Bulmahn did write something (not official I believe) along the lines of "I don't see why not" in a post on the Paizo forum, replying to someone asking about his barbarian attacking with both a bite and the gore from the Fiend Totem rage power. And I clearly remember SKR calling it "cheesy" to have both a bite and a gore in another thread from around the same time, which of course made me absolutely certain that is indeed how it works and also that it's good for the game! :smallbiggrin:

More seriously though, AFAIK every single monster published by Paizo which has both a gore and a bite also has both listed in its full attack. And there's nothing in the RAW for eidolon evolutions which stops an eidolon from doing the same, while there is indeed explicit limitations related to limbs for every natural attack which rely on something other than a head (or which comes with its own limb in the case of the tentacle evo). Besides, the EP pricing of the gore and bite evos would make little sense otherwise. (On top of this, every thread I can remember having read or participated in which discusses the matter have basically ended with the only logical conclusion being that a creature can make both attacks. But don't trust my memory - it's notoriously and highly selective...)

In other words, I think it's safe to say that a creature's head is not treated as a "limb" by the system, or possibly that a gore attack is treated as coming with its own limb(s). Regardless, everything published plays nicely with the assumption that you can make both attacks, while a lot of related material doesn't play nice - or not at all - with the assumption that you cannot.

upho

2016-06-07, 06:54 PM

Upho, if either of these options were logistically feasible I would support adding them to the book. This isn't a case of shooting down your suggestions because I disagree with them, it's a question of what is realistically feasible given the resources available.

The fact is that this suggestion, while great in theory, implies a level of commitment that is beyond the ability of DSP and myself to promise. Print orders of Lords of the Wild would suffer the worst. We simply can't afford to constantly reprint material. PDFs would require constant monitoring to update the existing rules text, or reissuing of errata on a repeat basis. Including that rules text also includes a promise to keep it up to date, and that is a commitment of time, money and resources that we can't afford.*removes rose-tinted glasses* :smallsigh: It pains me to see what you're saying here really does describe the reality in which DSP has to operate. You guys truly deserve better.

And then people who don't use the rules in this book will still be able to spam their natural attacks with uncapped impunity and the perceived value of the material this book brings to the table decreases as a result. If I'm being completely honest, I tend to err on the side of allowing GMs to make necessary houserules in order to better tailor material that fits their games. For many people, the plethora of natural attacks available isn't a problem, and they were able to get said attacks long before this book became available. Adding a maximum attack limit to Lords of the Wild doesn't fix the problem that already exists, assuming it even is a problem (as that opinion varies from table to table).I think I largely agree with your "philosophy" of trusting GMs to introduce the necessary house rules to make your material play nice with their games. But judging from other posts in this thread, as well as the feedback which has prompted the errata of certain maneuvers in PoW, it seems to me many of your customers do seem highly critical of books introducing options which they believe are clearly not in balance with the majority of the game, regardless of whether there are Paizo options already available which are potentially even more game breaking (such as T1 classes). It appears the perceived value this book brings to the table may thus actually increase if it reins stuff in.

As a concrete example, Steel Flurry Strike has received critique for its high damage potential and is now up for errata, despite producing DPR numbers lower than those every full attack from a same level build (such as a natural attacker) without Steel Flurry Strike could produce.

I believe the same thing applies here and that one should be very careful not to view Paizo's errors as any kind of "carte blanche" to introduce additional options at an equally broken level. People don't seem to like the idea of increasing the number of options and combos leading to early level rocket tag builds. And I also think it's worth noting that in practice, the introduction of additional equally broken options does in this case not only increase the risks of having a broken build in the game, but indirectly also says this kind of imbalance should be expected and accepted, if not endorsed. Not to mention the options also actually increase the level of brokenness possible and makes it significantly easier to maintain that brokenness further up the levels.

Anyhow, there's probably a much more elegant solution than my suggestion, capable of reducing the problem enough for most potential customers' liking. I just hope you don't give up on finding such a solution. It sure would be nice to finally have options which make natural attackers viable and balanced during all levels, without the need for extreme optimization replacing the need for extreme self-nerfing, which is the current situation IME.

(In this case, these issues won't really affect my game besides perhaps requiring me to slightly redesign some options and add a few restrictions if my players wanted early level access. But I still judge the mechanical quality of any new material to no small extent based on how well the options may help reduce existing balance issues, a large part of the reason why I have such high regard for most DSP products, especially the PoW line. In contrast, a product which ignores these issues and/or actually makes them worse (unless clearly stating a different intended use) doesn't exactly give me the impression of quality. Such poorly balanced mechanics also often drastically reduces the book's value for me, since it basically means the mechanical balance of my game (and related GM work) would be better served if I used free homebrew material or designed the mechanics myself. I find it hard to believe I'm the only one having these views.)

Vhaidara

2016-06-08, 08:57 AM

Okay everyone we have a new wave of toys and updates. Complete with a changelog!

Added animal form size to the werewolf template
Added Greater Werewolf and Formless Master prestige classes
Werewolf requirement removed from Varsark
Size Shift renamed to Magnitude Shift
Text added to Rapid Shifting and Extra Shifting to clarify that it does not require that you be shifted
Tail added to Deathsting Shift
Chameleon Shift, Identity Shift, and Sensory Shift added
Temporary natural weapons created by Chimera Soul maneuvers now do damage as normal for their size and type

It sure would be nice to finally have options which make natural attackers viable and balanced during all levels, without the need for extreme optimization replacing the need for extreme self-nerfing, which is the current situation IME.

I think this is the core of your misunderstanding.

With things like PoW, we can bring the power level up. But we're working inside of an existing system here (natural attacks), and we cannot change the underlying mechanics of that system, because that's beyond our domain

We can make the option stronger by adding options (which is what LotW does), but we cannot make it weaker, because the only way to make it weaker would be to change existing items that we didn't publish. And the only way for the new stuff from us to NOT make it stronger is if our material is so underpowered no one looks twice at it because it falls into the category of self nerfing

Lorrdernie

2016-06-08, 10:48 AM

Aww this means the werewolf ogre that my PCs are planning on riding into battle is no longer RAW legal :(

I'm the DM though so the ogre gets to ignore it. He's also going to be picking up shifting feats and I think the PCs are really going to appreciate the new identity and chameleon shifting feats since they like infiltration and stealth. Overall really enjoying it and I'm looking forward to testing out the new discipline as well.

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-08, 10:49 AM

I think this is the core of your misunderstanding.

With things like PoW, we can bring the power level up. But we're working inside of an existing system here (natural attacks), and we cannot change the underlying mechanics of that system, because that's beyond our domain

We can make the option stronger by adding options (which is what LotW does), but we cannot make it weaker, because the only way to make it weaker would be to change existing items that we didn't publish. And the only way for the new stuff from us to NOT make it stronger is if our material is so underpowered no one looks twice at it because it falls into the category of self nerfing

That is truly the crux of the matter. Adding options relevant enough to be part of an optimizer's toolbox makes builds overall stronger, because of virtue being part of the choices present. That is a fundamental truth, as you can't have one thing without the other. Making stuff deliberately weak(er), so no optimizer would touch it with an 11 foot pole, is just adding trap options. Stuff that at best looks good and is only chosen by those who either don't know better or don't care about effectiveness.

Personally, I consider it insulting to customers to include trap options deliberately. We end up paying for things which are less than useful, in the believe that we pay for the talents and effort that the rules are balanced enough to play without having to worry about ending up with characters which can't pull their weight. Obviously, the mechanics are complex enough that you always can create a subpar character, but I expect that at least an attempt in good faith was made to filter these things out. Or I can just homebrew stuff myself with the same results (compared to including trap options).

As long the new options aren't no-brainers, basically invalidating the plethora of the previous options, I welcome having more options overall.:)

Sayt

2016-06-09, 12:02 AM

Greater werewolf looks...fantastic, actually very cool, but the +1 class features could use a slight tweak, as it doesn't state whether you get new class features, or just advance the previous ones.

For example, Fighter's bonus feat class feature says that you get one at elvel 1, 2 and every even level thereafter, so Greater Werewolf will net you an extra bonus feat. But if you go Fighter 3/Greater Werewolf 5, will you pick up Weapon Training at seventh level? It's a new
class feature, not one you had at entry to the class. I'm pretty sure the RAI is yes, but I'm not sure if the text supports it 100%?

Also, I really want to play one of these!

upho

2016-06-09, 06:56 AM

We can make the option stronger by adding options (which is what LotW does), but we cannot make it weaker, because the only way to make it weaker would be to change existing items that we didn't publish.Of course. But that's not what I've been asking for.

And the only way for the new stuff from us to NOT make it stronger is if our material is so underpowered no one looks twice at it because it falls into the category of self nerfingSorry, but I don't understand. How is it that new options which don't increase
the risks of early level rocket tagare inherently and inevitably also "so underpowered no one looks twice at it because it falls into the category of self nerfing"?

I can think of several ways to make natural attackers stronger without also increasing the risks of early level rocket tag. See the wrathblood build below for a few examples.

That is truly the crux of the matter. Adding options relevant enough to be part of an optimizer's toolbox makes builds overall stronger, because of virtue being part of the choices present. That is a fundamental truth, as you can't have one thing without the other. Making stuff deliberately weak(er), so no optimizer would touch it with an 11 foot pole, is just adding trap options. Stuff that at best looks good and is only chosen by those who either don't know better or don't care about effectiveness.I'm sorry, but I believe this is a false dichotomy when applied to this case. You can certainly introduce tons of new options which are all generally "relevant enough", vastly improve "an optimizer's toolbox" and make "builds overall stronger", without those options also further increasing the number of combos leading to OP/broken early level rocket tag builds, or the rocket tag power of such builds. Most options in PoW and PoW:E manages to do exactly that.

When it comes to options for natural attackers specifically, I can even use my own homebrew bloodrager archetype, the wrathblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!), as a practical example of how this can be done. Take a look and ask yourself whether it:
adds "options relevant enough to be part of an optimizer's toolbox" which make "builds overall stronger"? According to the players and DM's I've heard from who uses it in their games (some of them very high-op) and my own assessment, yes, very much so. Especially in terms of general versatility and in terms of allowing a natural attack build to take on combat roles otherwise virtually impossible for any Paizo martial build to fulfill. And despite having a lower number of attacks in a full attack than a build using only Paizo options during most levels, a damage oriented build can still certainly produce a notably higher average DPR total during all 20 levels (especially when looking at actual game numbers, mainly because of the many options the archetype offers which can significantly increase DPR outside of full attacks as well as the number of situations in which a full attack is possible).
further increases the number of combos leading to OP/broken early level rocket tag natural attack builds, or the rocket tag power of such builds? Considering the maximum number of attacks a build using the archetype's features can make in a full attack at 1st character level is limited to 2, growing to a maximum of 6 attacks at 20th level, I think it's pretty safe to say the answer here is "no, not in the least".
So do you think my answers here are wrong? If so, why?

To illustrate what the mentioned "options relevant enough to be part of an optimizer's toolbox" can achieve in this case, here's a debuff/control focused anti-caster "tank" example build (note especially reach and Special Attacks):

Angel-blooded aasimar wrathblood primalist bloodrager (arcane bloodline) 16
LN huge male outsider (native)

(All values, except for initiative and unusable skills, while in bloodrage and Black Seraph Style stance, using greater surge of wrath, boots of speed and listed wands.)

Initiative +12 (+10 in bloodrage); Senses blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, Perception +36
Aura Enemies within 30 ft. lose immunity to fear (creatures immune to mind-affecting effects can be affected by fear effects, but gain a +5 bonus to save)

DEFENSE
AC 38, touch 18, flat-footed 36, +4 vs. attack by creature suffering from fear +4 armor, +12 natural, +1 dex, +4 shield, +3 insight, +5 defl, +2 luck, +1 dodge, -2 rage, -2 size, +4 black seraph style
HP 253 10+15d10 hit die, +144 con, +16 favored class
Fort 27, Ref 17, Will 18; +4 on Will saves vs. enchantments, +6 on saves vs. spells, (Su) and (Sp) abilities, +4 on saves vs. effect created by creature suffering from fear, +2 on saves vs. poison
DR 4/-, Immune blightburn (all effects), Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5, fire 10
Defensive Abilities blur (20% miss chance) and displacement (50% miss chance)

OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., Fly 90 ft.
Melee (Power Attack) bite +30 (2d6+29 /x2, plus Cornugon Smash, cruel and grab), 2 claws +30/+30 (1d8+29 /x2, plus Cornugon Smash, cruel and grab), and 3 hooked tentacles +30/+30/+30 (1d8+29 /x2, plus Cornugon Smash, cruel, grab and poison)
Space 15 ft., Reach 15 ft., 30 ft. with tentacles (+5 ft. for 1 round as swift action 3/day)
Special Attacks Come and Get Me, constrict (1d8+29 plus poison), Cornugon Smash (Intimidate +54, stacking fear effects), cruel (creature suffering from fear sickened on hit), grab (any size, +47 with Power Attack), hooked tentacles (can grapple with hooked tentacles without gaining grappled condition), monstrous opportunist (free extra attack with AoO once per target and round), monstrous prescience (4 AoOs/round), poison

Blightburn Mage Cage Poison (Su)
1/round when hooked tentacle deals damage: type poison (injury); save Fort DC 35 (DC 30 vs. target immune to poison); frequency 1/round for 4 rounds.
Failed save effect: 2d6 fire damage, 1d4 Str damage, blightburn sickness (no save), bound as by dimensional anchor, all extradimensional perception and attack forms and any magic/supernatural movement (ex: fly, freedom of movement, haste) barred and suspended; cure 1 save.
Successful save effect: 1d6 fire damage, blightburn sickness, bound as by dimensional anchor; DC 15 Heal check to clean away.

Bloodline and Rage Powers 38 rounds/day
Arcane Bloodrage (blur), Greater Arcane Bloodrage (displacement), True Arcane Bloodrage (beast shape IV), Superstition, Come and Get Me

True Arcane Bloodrage Abilities beast shape IV (doombat)
Large size, +6 str, +2 con, -2 dex, +6 NA, blindsense 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, speed 10 ft., fly 50 ft., bite, tail

Shape of Wrath Evolutions 13 evolution points
Blightburn Poison (1 EP), Hooked Tentacles (tails) (2 EP), Lethal Injection (1 EP), Merged Amulet (0 EP), Monstrous Limbs (hooked tentacles) (2 EP), Monstrous Opportunist (2 EP), Monstrous Prescience (2 EP), Poison (2 EP), Skilled (Perception) (1 EP)

Greater Surge of Wrath Evolutions +6 evolution points, -6 rounds of bloodrage, 2 bloodrages/day
Mage Cage Poison (2 EP), Monstrous Size (4 EP)

Focused Form 26 evolution points, 1 hour, 4/day

STATISTICS
Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 42 16 base, +2 race, +4 level, +4 belt, +6 greater bloodrage, +6 size beast shape, +4 monstrous size evo
Dex 12 12 base, +4 belt, -2 size beast shape, -2 monstrous size evo
Con 28 14 base, +4 belt, +6 rage, +2 size beast shape, +2 monstrous size evo
Int 9 7 base, +2 headband
Wis 14 12 base, +2 headband
Cha 22 14 base, +4 race, +4 headband
Bab +16, CMB +37 (grapple +52), CMD 56 (58 vs. grapple)
Feats *Black Seraph AnnihilationB, *Black Seraph StyleB, *Black Seraph's MalevolenceB, Cornugon Smash, Fiendskin, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved InitiativeB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, Rapid Grappler, Snatch, Soulless Gaze *The Black Seraph Style feats are found in "Path of War: Expanded" by Dreamscarred Press (http://dreamscarredpress.com/)
Skills Disguise +18 (using western star), Fly +20, Intimidate +54, Knowledge (planes) +10, Perception +36, Stealth +12, Use Magic Device +19

Alternate Racial Traits Variant Ability (+2 Charisma)
Traits Fate's Favored, Reactionary

Gear
+1 furious cruel amulet of mighty fists, +3 mithral breastplate, belt of physical perfection +4, headband (+2 int, wis, +4 cha), cloak of resistance +5, ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic, CL 16), ring of protection +5, amulet of the blooded (abyssal), boots of speed, eyes of the eagle, fleshwarped scorpion's tail (attached), gauntlets of the skilled maneuver (grapple), jingasa of the fortunate soldier, longarm bracers, cracked dusty rose prism in wayfinder, cracked pale green prism x2, luckstone, wand of mage armor, wand of shield, western star, 20,300 gp

I think you'll agree "Batman Bob" here has, on top of his excellent defenses and awesome senses, both out-of-combat utility abilities (26 evo points and access to more evos than an eidolon, such as Diminutive size, 4 hours/day) and action-efficient, highly reliable and versatile combat debuff/control capabilities far beyond what any natural attacker or even any martial can achieve using only Paizo options. Nevertheless, he wouldn't have been much more of an "OP rocket tag" build during early levels than your average weapon wielding barbarian, not even remotely close to an optimized natural attacker using Paizo options.

Personally, I consider it insulting to customers to include trap options deliberately. We end up paying for things which are less than useful, in the believe that we pay for the talents and effort that the rules are balanced enough to play without having to worry about ending up with characters which can't pull their weight. Obviously, the mechanics are complex enough that you always can create a subpar character, but I expect that at least an attempt in good faith was made to filter these things out. Or I can just homebrew stuff myself with the same results (compared to including trap options).I have a few questions to you regarding this:
Does this mean you think it's perfectly OK and balanced to other PCs in your typical games if your 5th level PC can make at least 5 primary and 3 secondary attacks with every full attack?
Would you consider it insulting if new options for natural attackers were introduced that couldn't improve the DPR capacity of this 5th level build?
Would you consider new options for natural attackers as traps unless they increased the number of build combos able to achieve at least a comparable early level DRP result?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-09, 08:23 AM

The existence of new options, by the mere fact of their existence, raises the inherent power level of the game. Unless those options are so unfeasible to use that they are made a non-issue. That's the nature of game design, especially in the case of adding new material. Variety is power.

What you are asking for upho is only feasible if we have the ability to change the core assumptions of the game. Since this is DSP, not Paizo, we don't have that ability. It's out of our hands. Let me walk you through this:

1. Is early level natural attack spam a problem?

Maybe. Some people consider an issue, others don't.

2. Was early level natural attack spam a problem before LotW?

Yes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp), it (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) pro (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/animal-fury-ex)bab (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-lesser-su)ly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/fiend-totem-lesser-su) w (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)as (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid).

3. Does the existence of LotW make the problem worse?

Possibly. New options for natural attacks were added, though the vast majority were things that were already available (see above).

4. Will changing LotW make the problem go away?

No (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp), it (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-tiefling) pro (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/animal-fury-ex)bab (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-lesser-su)ly (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/fiend-totem-lesser-su) wo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)n't (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid).

5. Ultimately, is this a problem that DSP has the ability to fix?

Given the issue is present to a significant degree in the core game, no.

Low level natural attack spam exists, and it is beyond the scope of authority of DSP to make it go away. Balancing our material around the assumption that it doesn't exist means that people who use natural attacks will not use LotW because the existing options are both more accessible and more powerful.

What you want to happen would be nice if it could happen. But it's not something that DSP can do. I cannot state this any other way. The problem already exists, it will continue to exist, and we do not have the authority to fix the problem.

Quite frankly, you're barking up the wrong tree. I appreciate your support and enthusiasm, but I can't give you what you want.

upho

2016-06-09, 10:27 AM

What you want to happen would be nice if it could happen. But it's not something that DSP can do. I cannot state this any other way. The problem already exists, it will continue to exist, and we do not have the authority to fix the problem.

Quite frankly, you're barking up the wrong tree. I appreciate your support and enthusiasm, but I can't give you what you want.I understand, and see that I've still not managed to get my message across. But I'm OK with not sharing the views of "the tree" on this particular issue, and hopefully my worries will be proven to have been largely unfounded once things have seen more play and been bent into final shapes, so I'll quit barking. And regardless, it's the least I can do to show my gratitude for the patience and respect you have shown me when discussing this, despite my persistent nagging in derailing wall of texts. You have my sincere thanks.

*wags tail and trots off to investigate the new-smelling stuff on other side of tree*

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-10, 10:29 AM

While I don't want to reopen the discussion, I feel should at least give some open points a closing they deserve. I noticed that I didn't quite describe my opinion in a way that would allow others to pick up on the intended meaning. The "stronger" in "makes builds overall stronger" actually refers to "makes niche builds viable" and "creates more variety". To some extent there is always the risk of overlooking a particular combination, where you add another piece to rocket tag. Considering the number of options it is impossible to filter everything out and two options - which are completely fine on their own - are grounds for banning them from being used in combination.

I have a few questions to you regarding this:

Does this mean you think it's perfectly OK and balanced to other PCs in your typical games if your 5th level PC can make at least 5 primary and 3 secondary attacks with every full attack?
Would you consider it insulting if new options for natural attackers were introduced that couldn't improve the DPR capacity of this 5th level build?
Would you consider new options for natural attackers as traps unless they increased the number of build combos able to achieve at least a comparable early level DRP result?

Considering the existing Martial/Caster disparity, this is somewhat of a trick question. You can always create builds which vary in their effectiveness. It doesn't matter what options you use, but if the GM has to create an enemy, so a certain character is challenged, but the rest of the party would be one-hit killed instead, that group has already a problem. You need to set a baseline around the characters aren't allowed to deviate much to avoid to run into that problem or be able to creatively with such an outlier, so the other players don't feel left out.
I would consider it insulting if a new option implies that it improves something, but instead makes it worse. I'm fine with keeping the DPR as it is, or even lowering, if it provides then something interesting in return.
See answer above.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-10, 10:53 AM

I try not to be the kind of person that begs for feedback, but we did put out two new PrCs on Wednesday and I'd love to get some opinions on them. The Greater Werewolf and the Formless Master.

meemaas

2016-06-10, 11:02 AM

I try not to be the kind of person that begs for feedback, but we did put out two new PrCs on Wednesday and I'd love to get some opinions on them. The Greater Werewolf and the Formless Master.

First off. I absolutely adore the Formless Master. It reminds me of the Warshaper, but more importantly it is a perfect fit for the shifting feats to progress into.

ATalsen

2016-06-10, 11:15 AM

I try not to be the kind of person that begs for feedback, but we did put out two new PrCs on Wednesday and I'd love to get some opinions on them. The Greater Werewolf and the Formless Master.

I know I missed Formless Master because it was not listed in the Outline on the left side. :)

I love Formless Master as a Pathfinder 'updated' version of the 3.5 Warshaper prestige class (though they have significant differences). {EDIT: Ninja'd by meemaas :) }

3 feats seems steep for entry; I understand with the way shifting feats work, 3 feats is usually the 'next level' of expanded ability for most shifting feats, so I can see why that number was chosen though.

I do like how the capstone ability (Truth of Form) makes the Unbounded Ability effectively an 'always on' buff. Many capstones are not all that impressive, and many don't work with what the class was building too, but I think this one is worth it and tying a bonus in from a previous ability integrates it more.

EDIT:
I missed it the fist time through, but the required +6 BAB is way high; it would be disappointing to have to wait till 7th level (minimum) to take this class, and the class is 3/4 BAB as well, I don't think that fits.

Halae

2016-06-10, 12:17 PM

I try not to be the kind of person that begs for feedback, but we did put out two new PrCs on Wednesday and I'd love to get some opinions on them. The Greater Werewolf and the Formless Master.

Formless Master doesn't really hold my attention, but Greater Werewolf definitely does - I'm a sucker for both classes that advance a base class and advance your racial features, meaning as soon as I realized this was in I'd have to try it sometime. Let me break down my thoughts on it.

Prerequisites: Only needing three levels to get into something is unusual, but Kel explained to me before why that was done, in order to match the Greater Vampire PrC. Feral Vitality is interesting because it's a very defensive feat, and it leads right into the rest of the class.

BAB, HD, and Saves: Full BAB caught me by surprise, since that doesn't really match most "natural" HD setups; only Dragon and Outsider, primarily. Still, not a complaint, as this makes it approachable for martial characters. As far as saves go, I was honestly expecting Reflex over Fort, but here we have fortitude instead of reflex saves. Why is that? It seems weird to me that reflex save isn't considered despite the fact that dexterity and agility are sort of a wolf thing, rather than standing solid and tanking hits (which is more of a bear thing). D10 HD at least makes sense, since this is clearly a close-combat PrC.

Instincts of the Beast: An untyped bonus to wisdom and a +2 to will saves, the most important save of all! This is sort of odd, because while it benefits wisdom based casters (who don't really want to take this class in the first place due to lost caster levels) and initiators (who can at least skate by on the +2 class features and practiced initiator, but don't hugely want this either) the benefits of this are primarily defensive or non-combat.

Armor of the Beast: More Damage Reduction is always nice, and getting all the way up to DR 8/Silver is cool, though it's a weird number given how most DR tries to stay in multiples of five. but eh, the barbarian doesn't follow that, aegis doesn't, so who gives a damn about that? Another defensive bonus.

Heart Of The Beast: To be perfectly honest, I sort of dislike this ability. It doesn't do anything you can't already do with Wild Empathy, this just makes it supernatural, which to me doesn't really fit in with the rest of the abilities. Everything else feels inherent to how a badass werewolf should be, and it doesn't really add much to a character that can already do Lycanthropic Empathy, at least as far as I can see.

Nature Of the Beast: This is another ability that feels a little off, but for a different reason. This is good from a power perspective, and I can't really think of anything that readily breaks it, but primarily in stories and movies and the like, the transformation into a werewolf is difficult, sometimes painful. A free action suggests it's as easy as talking, which while I could see it, is a bit off. No big complaint about this one, and I have no suggestion to fix it to make it feel better to me; I'm not sure it even should be fixed, just for feeling weird.

Armory of the Beast: Ah, the first offensive ability in the whole prestige class! This is a nice way to add additional resources to the base template; I was a little miffed when I saw that I could only choose either claws or a bite, rather than both, and this solves that problem handily, and if you want to specialize on a particular type of natural weapon this lets you. Wonderful.

Life of the Beast: Regeneration only bypassed by silver? Amazing. This combined with the 2 HP fast healing from Feral Vitality means that a werewolf is extremely unlikely to actually be put down in the long term. that said, it's another defensive buff, and all about taking hits but getting back up to keep fighting. It's weird in that direction.

Base Class Advancement: An excellent boon to anybody looking to take this prestige class; it'll help its availability immensely in the long run. Not sure why it was decided to only go on 2 and 4, beyond mimicking the Greater Vampire Prestige Class. It feels odd, but whatever, a few things already do.

Final Thoughts: This feels like an exceptionally defensive prestige class. Armory of the Beast makes up for that a little, but it's a latecomer to the prestige class, coming in at around level 7 for most characters. Between the Damage Reduction, Regeneration, Fast Healing, d10 HD, boost to wisdom and will save, and little in the way of offensive boosts, this feels extremely hard to put down, but that's only half the equation for the classic werewolf. You need to be both unstoppable offensively and defensively for that, and while this covers the latter, the former is somewhat lacking here. If it had a bit more offensive utility (maybe in place of Heart of the Beast? I don't know) it'd feel a lot better to me.

Vhaidara

2016-06-10, 01:32 PM

Final Thoughts: This feels like an exceptionally defensive prestige class. Armory of the Beast makes up for that a little, but it's a latecomer to the prestige class, coming in at around level 7 for most characters. Between the Damage Reduction, Regeneration, Fast Healing, d10 HD, boost to wisdom and will save, and little in the way of offensive boosts, this feels extremely hard to put down, but that's only half the equation for the classic werewolf. You need to be both unstoppable offensively and defensively for that, and while this covers the latter, the former is somewhat lacking here. If it had a bit more offensive utility (maybe in place of Heart of the Beast? I don't know) it'd feel a lot better to me.

Going to actually address this first, since it brings up a theme.

So, let me start by saying it really was meant to be a defensive PrC. For me, natural attack builds already do a good job of capturing the savagery of a mythical werewolf, the offensive power they have. What they fall down on is the unstoppable, indestructible side of things, the idea of a monster that will not stop until you put it down with it's one weakness: silver.

BAB, HD, and Saves: Full BAB caught me by surprise, since that doesn't really match most "natural" HD setups; only Dragon and Outsider, primarily. Still, not a complaint, as this makes it approachable for martial characters. As far as saves go, I was honestly expecting Reflex over Fort, but here we have fortitude instead of reflex saves. Why is that? It seems weird to me that reflex save isn't considered despite the fact that dexterity and agility are sort of a wolf thing, rather than standing solid and tanking hits (which is more of a bear thing). D10 HD at least makes sense, since this is clearly a close-combat PrC.

Fort felt more on point with the juggernaut werewolf the PrC is trying to create.

Instincts of the Beast: An untyped bonus to wisdom and a +2 to will saves, the most important save of all! This is sort of odd, because while it benefits wisdom based casters (who don't really want to take this class in the first place due to lost caster levels) and initiators (who can at least skate by on the +2 class features and practiced initiator, but don't hugely want this either) the benefits of this are primarily defensive or non-combat.

Iron Will actually pulled from the fact that the traditional lycanthrope just gets Iron Will for free.

Heart Of The Beast: To be perfectly honest, I sort of dislike this ability. It doesn't do anything you can't already do with Wild Empathy, this just makes it supernatural, which to me doesn't really fit in with the rest of the abilities. Everything else feels inherent to how a badass werewolf should be, and it doesn't really add much to a character that can already do Lycanthropic Empathy, at least as far as I can see.

This ability is about the idea of a werewolf who becomes the leader of a pack, especially since the checks involved are normally Cha based, which isn't exactly fitting for the standard werewolf. It's honestly kind of a ribbon ability, but it's something i think creative players should be able to get some mileage out of

Nature Of the Beast: This is another ability that feels a little off, but for a different reason. This is good from a power perspective, and I can't really think of anything that readily breaks it, but primarily in stories and movies and the like, the transformation into a werewolf is difficult, sometimes painful. A free action suggests it's as easy as talking, which while I could see it, is a bit off. No big complaint about this one, and I have no suggestion to fix it to make it feel better to me; I'm not sure it even should be fixed, just for feeling weird.

So, I generally agree that the experience isn't a pleasant one, but this PrC is about EMBRACING your nature as a werewolf. At this point you're halfway through the PrC, you're used to the pain and can shift as naturally as you can breath.

Armory of the Beast: Ah, the first offensive ability in the whole prestige class! This is a nice way to add additional resources to the base template; I was a little miffed when I saw that I could only choose either claws or a bite, rather than both, and this solves that problem handily, and if you want to specialize on a particular type of natural weapon this lets you. Wonderful.

Thank you, I liked being able to expand that option myself.

Base Class Advancement: An excellent boon to anybody looking to take this prestige class; it'll help its availability immensely in the long run. Not sure why it was decided to only go on 2 and 4, beyond mimicking the Greater Vampire Prestige Class. It feels odd, but whatever, a few things already do.

I generally feel that the PrC is strong enough to stand on its own, but it is lacking in offensive abilities, as you noticed, in a primarily offensive game. I felt the 2/5 progression was enough that you would feel the loss, but not be crippled by it on most classes.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-10, 01:41 PM

EDIT:
I missed it the fist time through, but the required +6 BAB is way high; it would be disappointing to have to wait till 7th level (minimum) to take this class, and the class is 3/4 BAB as well, I don't think that fits.

You're right, that is actually too high. That's what I get for copy/pasting. It'd down to +4 now.

Nyaa

2016-06-10, 03:12 PM

3 feats seems steep for entry

I second this. Also, Formless Master ends up with 6 shifting feats, which is 1 too much.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-10, 03:28 PM

I second this. Also, Formless Master ends up with 6 shifting feats, which is 1 too much.

You get new abilities at 1, 3 and 5 for all your shifting feats. That means that you have 6 feats all with level 1, 3 and 5 effects. It's not like your 6th shifting feat is stuck at level 1 effects, all of them gain their full effects.

Halae

2016-06-10, 03:37 PM

~Snip~

Fair enough. Then I have no further objections.

Vhaidara

2016-06-10, 03:40 PM

I second this. Also, Formless Master ends up with 6 shifting feats, which is 1 too much.

You can use as many shifting feats as you want. 5 is just the point where they don't individually keep getting stronger. The individual feats are still extremely potent and worth taking.

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-10, 10:32 PM

I rather like Formless Master, but I am curious why you cannot use metamorphosis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis) to qualify for the prestige class. I understand psionic creatures have the Metamorph prestige class, but having another option would not be bad in my view.

Edit: Okay, the formatting of this book is rather annoying and incomplete. I hope you don't mind feedback on this part, since it otherwise makes finding stuff a pain, and I hope my comments don't come off as too patronizing.

The following section titles should have the listed Heading applied to them.

To get Heading #: Format -> Paragraph Styles -> Heading #-> Apply Heading #

Werewolf Template (CR +1) - heading 1
Creating a Werewolf - heading 2
Special Attacks - heading 2
Special Qualities - heading 2

The Origin of the Wolf - heading 1
Bitten by a Werewolf - heading 2
Removing the Curse - heading 2
Werewolves in society - heading 2

The Pack - heading 1
Forming A Pack - heading 2
Pack Rituals - heading 2
Pack of the Night Wind - heading 3
Pack of the Blood Moon - heading 3
Pack of the Shared Soul - heading 3
Pack of the Wyrd Howl - heading 3

Archetypes - heading 1
Unshackled Rager - heading 2
Silverblade Hunter - heading 2

(By the way, the Unshackled Rager and Silverblade Hunter have different formatting applied to the title, so you may wish to make them uniform.)

Prestige Classes - heading 1
Formless Master - heading 2
Greater Werewolf - heading 2
Varsärk - heading 2

Feats - heading 1
each individual feat - heading 3
Shifting Feats - heading 2
each individual shifting feat - heading 3

Spells - heading 1
each spell - heading 3

New Disciplines - heading 1
Chimera Soul Discipline - heading 2
the title of each level of Chimera Soul - heading 4
Chimera Soul Maneuvers - heading 3
each level of chimera soul - heading 4
each Chimera Soul maneuver - heading 5 (optional)

Martial Tradition - heading 1
The Temple of the Formless Spirit - heading 2

Edit 2:

Rabid Bite and Superior Rabid Bite do not have durations listed for their effects.

Deathsting Shift's "reposition closer to you" thing could be better worded as a drag (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Drag).

Strongclaw Shift: "However, if you reduce the shift duration to 2 rounds, you gain two claw attacks, which function as primary natural weapons dealing 1d4 damage each for Medium creatures, +1 for every 2 Shifting feats you possess."

What is this +1 for? Is it a +1 damage? One more claw attack?

Nyaa

2016-06-11, 02:51 AM

Than would be the case if using combat shifts didn't kill duration of non-combat shifts, or if there were more than 6 combat and 5 non-combat shifting feats total.

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-11, 06:02 AM

I try not to be the kind of person that begs for feedback, but we did put out two new PrCs on Wednesday and I'd love to get some opinions on them. The Greater Werewolf and the Formless Master.

Looking over the Greater Werewolf, I like it very much. But I still have some questions. The first one is, what happens if you have already Iron Will? Do you get another bonus feat? The second one is, does regeneration 5/silver supersede the DR 8/silver? If not does that mean that a non-silver weapon still needs to overcome the DR and the next round, 5 damage of the applied is still healed? Also, does the regeneration still apply in the human form?

Sayt

2016-06-11, 06:06 AM

Rabid Bite and Superior Rabid Bite do not have durations listed for their effects.

Fatigue has a built in duration! Until Eight hours of rest.

Halae

2016-06-11, 06:32 AM

Looking over the Greater Werewolf, I like it very much. But I still have some questions. The first one is, what happens if you have already Iron Will? Do you get another bonus feat? The second one is, does regeneration 5/silver supersede the DR 8/silver? If not does that mean that a non-silver weapon still needs to overcome the DR and the next round, 5 damage of the applied is still healed? Also, does the regeneration still apply in the human form?I can answer these!

As with most specific bonus feats, if you already have Iron Will you simply do not gain it again and the benefit is wasted.

The Damage Reduction and Regeneration both work together; So if someone tries to hit you with a steel greatsword for 20 damage, first you reduce the incoming damage to 12 (thanks to damage reduction) and then at the end of your turn you heal for 5 damage. If the greatsword is silver or mithral instead of steel, you take the full 20 damage and your regeneration is shut down for one round. they work together; neither supersedes the other, so a steel weapon will have a hard time damaging you and keeping you down, but a silver weapon will cause you to have a bad day. Which makes sense, as that fits the stories.

The Regeneration is not restricted to hybrid or animal form, and therefore it still works in human form.

Vhaidara

2016-06-11, 09:34 AM

Halae is on the nose for her answers. DR and Regeneration have no overlap, one reducing incoming damage while the other heals damage you've taken.

Milenia: I'll look into the formatting, possibly tomorrow night. Got things going on today.
As to your questions...
As Sayt mentioned, fatigue is an 8 hour duration by default
...I keep trying to forget that's a separate maneuver.
That is meant to be damage. but I can see how it's unclear. Added a word to clarify

Than would be the case if using combat shifts didn't kill duration of non-combat shifts, or if there were more than 6 combat and 5 non-combat shifting feats total.

The only Shifting feats that only have short, in combat options are Beasthide and Deathsting. Abomination makes the list as only going up to 10 minutes at a time, but the rest have hour long duration shifts, and you don't have to activate every shifting feat.
Travelling cross country? Activate Swiftwing, Strongclaw, Longstride, and Wavelord shifts for bonus movement speed and movement modes.
Infiltrating a place? Chameleon, Identity, Magnitude (Tiny), and Sensory shifts are your friends.
Fight breaks out? Unleash the beast and mix up your sets by using Strongclaw, Wavelord, Magnitude, and Sensory in their short versions, and now you can bring your Beasthide, Abomination, and Deathsting out to play

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-11, 04:20 PM

For Abomination, Sensory and Wavelord shifts, when taking the 2 round option, do you also gain the benefits of the longer duration option? The wording could be clarified if it's also or instead.

Fatigue has a built in duration! Until Eight hours of rest.

Milenia: I'll look into the formatting, possibly tomorrow night. Got things going on today.
As to your questions...
As Sayt mentioned, fatigue is an 8 hour duration by default
...I keep trying to forget that's a separate maneuver.
That is meant to be damage. but I can see how it's unclear. Added a word to clarify
Alright, thanks!

Vhaidara

2016-06-11, 04:54 PM

"Also" has been added to the relevant shifts (Strongclaw needed it too)

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-11, 07:39 PM

"Also" has been added to the relevant shifts (Strongclaw needed it too)
The special sections of Abomination, Sensory, Strongclaw, and and Wavelord also need the "also" addition.

meemaas

2016-06-11, 08:31 PM

Re: Longstride Shift. I understand the RAI, but you might want to mane a note that reactivating the shift does not grant you an extra use of the swift action move. While it's for the most part pretty clear, the wording as is is something I could see a person arguing against in the case of 2 round shifts that include Longstride.

Edit: also, why is there no love for Metamorphosis with the Formless Master?

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-12, 05:10 AM

Edit: also, why is there no love for Metamorphosis with the Formless Master?

Spheres of Power's Alteration could be also a gateway. Not sure if you want to include a reference for 3rd party product or if this is then an implied houserule.

Nyaa

2016-06-12, 09:10 AM

Why does formless master even require polymorph when his class abilities work with shifting feats (which are a form of changing shape) and minor change shape he gets at level 1 is what was most used way to qualify for warshaper? Is polymorph requirement something more than warshaper legacy? Maybe it should be just removed?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-12, 09:30 AM

Nyaa

2016-06-12, 11:57 AM

It doesn't require polymorph. Polymorph is an optional entry path. Hence the use of "or."

Why does it require any or these? Are shifting feats not shapeshifting enough?

upho

2016-06-14, 11:35 AM

Here's some feedback on the new stuff:
Formless Master rocks. Hard. I really like both flavor and mechanics, even better than the original IMO. (I'm thinking it might be a bit too much for full casters, but I guess those are a bit of a lost cause anyways...)
The entry requirements for Formless Master are pretty harsh. I can see why you chose three Shifting feats though, and I frankly don't have any better ideas (but see also below).
Greater Werewolf is cool, but I think its mechanics feel a bit lackluster, at least in comparison to Formless Master. I wouldn't say they're weak per se, but the defensive abilities are rather bland IMO. I'd love to see the current focus on passive defenses get accompanied/partially exchanged for some more tactically interesting active defenses (stuff like situational attack debuffing/negation via AoOs and/or combat maneuvers, demoralizing interrupts able to scare away nearby opponents etc).
The feat entry requirements for the Greater Werewolf are also a bit weird IMO, at least when put next to the skill requirement. I mean, a lot of builds probably wouldn't even be able to afford Power Attack if they wanted to enter at 4th. Was this intentional?

Speaking of requirements, a lot of the options require the shapechanger subtype, which I guess might very well put them out of reach for many players. And while I think the werewolf template is great, the general template (ie "monsters as PCs") rules are a bit fuzzy and seem to be rarely used. I believe an alternative, less radical and/or controversial, option besides the template would be appreciated by many, opening up the cool related options for the core races and other non-shapechangers in games which doesn't allow templates. What are your thoughts on this?

Also noticed you've clarified the reach increase of Deathsting Shift. And I must say I was probably wrong before when saying I'd prefer it to emulate a reach weapon, seeing how many reach increase options there are anyways. So two thumbs up from me.

.....

Since the new stuff happened to come up just in time before the last session when the party in my regular home game were expected to run into a group of NPC werewolf villains, I redesigned my old builds and pimped them out with as much LotW bling as I could fit. I must say I think they turned out to be a lot more interesting and flavorful than the originals, and the players seemed to have at least as much fun facing them as I did running them. If anyone's interested, here are the build summaries (slightly tweaked to compensate for removed house rules):

Ginnulva Rimreise (Werewolf "Half-Rimturs")* Bloodrager 1, Formless Master 4, Greater Werewolf 4, Lore Warden Fighter 1, Ordained Defender Warder 2 - CR 12, 19,200 XP
CE Huge male humanoid (giant, human, shapechanger)
*"Rimreise" is a homebrew race, as Half-Giant but with Dex penalty, Wis bonus, Fire Acclimated, low-light vision and psionic traits exchanged for cold resistance 5, darkvision and Toughness as bonus feat.

All values while in hybrid form, bloodrage and Furyhorn Stance, using all shifting abilities (short duration versions), long arm, Time Skitter and listed wands.

Initiative +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +25
Aegis allies within 10 ft. gain +1 morale to AC and Will saves.
Chaotic Evil Aura as 4th level cleric

DEFENSE
AC 26, touch 15, flat-footed 24; +2 vs. good 10 +7 armor, +7 natural armor, +4 shield, +2 dodge, -2 rage, -2 size; 2 deflection protection from good
HP 132; fast healing 2 68 (10+2d12+5d10+4d8) hit die, +48 con, +12 toughness, +4 favored class
Fort +18, Ref +10, Will +15; +5 vs. mind-affecting; +5 vs. disease, poison, exhaustion and fatigue, +1 vs. effects created by good creatures
DR 6/silver; Resist cold 5
Defensive Abilities 50% chance to avoid sneak attack/crit, All Around Vision, protection from good, Uncanny Dodge

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft., ignores difficult terrain, may move as swift 1/encounter
Melee with Power Attack: bite +21 (3d6+24 plus demoralize, mark, trip), 2 claws +21/+21 (2d6+24 plus demoralize, grab, mark), deathsting +21 (2d6+24 plus demoralize, mark, poison, reposition), gore +21 (4d6+24 plus demoralize, mark), 2 hooves +16 (2d6+18 plus demoralize, mark) and one attack made again (Time Skitter haste effect)
Space 15 ft., Reach 25 ft., 30 ft. with claws and deathsting (35/40 ft. using Defensive Focus)
Attack Abilities and Special Attacks (values incl. Power Attack) Armiger's Mark (7/day, free on dealing damage: -4 to attack other, +12% arcane spell failure, 5 rounds), Combat Reflexes (6 AoOs/round), grab (CMB +41, free on claw hit), poison (Fort DC 25, 3d2 Strength damage, 6 rounds), reposition (CMB +33, free on deathsting hit, target must be moved closer), trip (CMB +35, free on bite hit), Staggering Strike (Fort DC 20 or target of crit staggered for 1 round)

War Blessing 5/day, ally touched, 1 min: +10 ft. base land speed, +1 dodge, +1 insight to attack, or +1 luck on saves, decided at start of each turn (+1 dodge included).

Bloodrage Aberrant Bloodline, 12 rounds/day: Staggering Strike and Abnormal Reach

Shifting 10 uses/day, 2 rounds duration/use in combat: Abomination, Beasthide, Deathsting, Longstride and Magnitude Shift

Stances and Maneuvers Readied IL 9 (Black Seraph, Chimera Soul, Eternal Guardian, Primal Fury)
Stances: Furyhorn Stance (active), Primal Warrior Stance
Boosts: Time Skitter (effects included)
Counters: Fear the Reaper, Vengeful Riposte
Strikes: Cornered Frenzy Strike

Spells and Spell-Like Abilities CL 4
1st, 2/day (1 remaining): cheetah's sprint, long arm (effects included)
At will: charm animal (CL 12, canines only)

STATISTICS
Ability Scores (20-point buy)
Str 34 15 base, 2 race, 3 level, 2 werewolf, 2 belt, 4 bloodrage, 6 magnitude shift
Dex 10 10 base, 4 unbounded ability, -4 magnitude shift
Con 18 14 base, 4 bloodrage
Int 8 8 base
Wis 20 14 base, 2 werewolf, 2 greater werewolf, 2 headband
Cha 14 14 base
Bab +11, CMB +36 (grapple +44, trip +38), CMD 47 (49 vs. grapple and trip); treated as Gargantuan size for combat maneuvers and special attacks
Feats Abomination ShiftB, Beasthide Shift, Combat ReflexesB, Cornugon SmashB, Deathsting ShiftB, Eschew MaterialsB, Feral Vitality, Greater GrappleB, Improved Grapple, Improved TripB, Iron WillB, Longstride Shifting, Magnitude ShiftB, Power AttackB, ToughnessB, Wrath of the Blood MoonB
Skills Bluff +16, Intimidate +22, Perception +25, Survival +16

Traits Practiced Initiator, Reactionary

Gear furious amulet of mighty fists, +1 agile breastplate, belt (+2 str), headband (+2 wis), cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, cracked dusty rose prism in wayfinder, eyes of the eagle, wand of protection from good (20 charges), wand of shield (10 charges), potion of cure medium wounds (2), 75 gp in diamonds, 25 gp in assorted coins

Ginnulva Rimreise (Werewolf "Half-Rimturs")* Bloodrager 1, Formless Master 4, Lore Warden Fighter 3 - CR 8, 4,800 XP each (CR 11, 12,800 XP in total)
CE Medium male humanoid (giant, human, shapechanger)
*"Rimreise" is a homebrew race, as Half-Giant but with Dex penalty, Wis bonus, Fire Acclimated, low-light vision and psionic traits exchanged for cold resistance 5, darkvision and Toughness as bonus feat.

All values while in hybrid form and bloodrage, using all shifting abilities (short duration versions), long arm and wand of shield.

Initiative +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +14

DEFENSE
AC 27, touch 17, flat-footed 25 10 +6 armor, +7 natural armor, 2 Dex, +4 shield, -2 rage
HP 88 44 (10+3d10+4d8) hit die, +32 con, +8 toughness, +4 favored class
Fort +12, Ref +8, Will +8; +5 vs. mind-affecting; +5 vs. disease, poison, exhaustion and fatigue
DR 2/silver; Resist cold 5
Defensive Abilities 50% chance to avoid sneak attack/crit, All Around Vision, can use Stealth while observed, Uncanny Dodge

OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft., burrow 40 ft., ignores difficult terrain, may move as swift 1/encounter
Melee with Power Attack: bite +16 (1d8+17 plus trip) and 2 claws +16/+16 (1d6+19)
Space 5 ft., Reach 10 ft., 15 ft. with claws
Attack Abilities and Special Attacks (values incl. Power Attack) Greater Trip, trip (CMB +28, free on bite hit), Staggering Strike (Fort DC 18 or target of crit staggered for 1 round)

Bloodrage Aberrant Bloodline, 12 rounds/day: Staggering Strike and Abnormal Reach

Shifting 5 uses/day, 2 rounds duration/use in combat: Abomination, Beasthide, Chameleon, Longstride and Strongclaw

Spells CL 4
1st, 2/day (1 remaining): cheetah's sprint, long arm (effects included)

STATISTICS
Ability Scores (heroic NPC array)
Str 28 15 base, 2 race, 2 werewolf, 4 bloodrage, 5 strongclaw shift
Dex 14 10 base, 4 unbounded ability
Con 18 14 base, 4 bloodrage
Int 8 8 base
Wis 16 13 base, 1 level, 2 werewolf
Cha 12 12 base
Bab +7, CMB +23 (trip +27), CMD 36 (38 vs. trip); treated as Large size for combat maneuvers and special attacks
Feats Abomination ShiftB, Beasthide Shift, Chameleon Shift, Eschew MaterialsB, Greater TripB, Improved TripB, Longstride ShiftingB, Power AttackB, Strongclaw Shift, ToughnessB, Wrath of the Blood Moon
Skills Intimidate +8, Perception +14, Survival +10, Stealth +22

Gear furious amulet of mighty fists, mwk breastplate, cloak of resistance +1, soft paw sandals (+4 Stealth, 1,600 gp), wand of shield (10 charges), potion of cure medium wounds (2), 175 gp in diamonds, 25 gp in assorted coins

The pack stalked the PCs, who were slowly trekking across a snowy mountain slope in stormy weather, the smaller members of the pack using the snow and their burrowing speed to hide while Anskar, the alpha, approached they party in human shape. Anskar easily managed to bluff the PCs into believing he belonged to a nomadic tribe of friendly "rimreisar" camped on the other side of the mountain, and that he should help the party navigate the treacherous terrain in the worsening weather. Once he had convinced them to make camp for the night instead of continuing in the bad weather, he signaled his pack to approach beneath the snow by whistling an inconspicuous little tune. The party was taken completely by surprise when the pack suddenly charged out of the snow, and Anskar's transformation into a huge, aberrant monster werewolf definitely had the desired effect.

The fight was very tough for the four 9th level PCs, especially because of the werewolves relatively high saves against mind-affecting magic, their effective tripping bites and Anskar's far-reaching claws easily grabbing the PCs and repeatedly putting them in the worst positions. I almost thought I had gone too far, but after a couple of nightmarish rounds the PCs managed to get their act together and were able to turn the fight, although one of them was lying bleeding in the snow and two others were very close to joining him by the time they finally put down the last werewolf.

Personally, I'm especially glad to see that the LotW options really allow for a much wider range of viable humanoid natural attack builds than what has been previously possible. For example, the controller/debuff aspects of the above builds, especially those of the pack alpha Anskar, were frighteningly (literally) effective and very fun in play.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-14, 11:44 AM

Speaking of requirements, a lot of the options require the shapechanger subtype, which I guess might very well put them out of reach for many players. And while I think the werewolf template is great, the general template (ie "monsters as PCs") rules are a bit fuzzy and seem to be rarely used. I believe an alternative, less radical and/or controversial, option besides the template would be appreciated by many, opening up the cool related options for the core races and other non-shapechangers in games which doesn't allow templates. What are your thoughts on this?

The shapechanger subtype is automatically applied to anyone who knows at least one maneuver from the Chimera Soul discipline, meaning that it's available for the cost of a trait (Combat Training).

upho

2016-06-14, 11:48 AM

The shapechanger subtype is automatically applied to anyone who knows at least one maneuver from the Chimera Soul discipline, meaning that it's available for the cost of a trait (Combat Training).Doh! Sorry 'bout that, I obviously should've re-read some things before posting... :smallredface:

Seems like a very good solution, BTW.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-14, 12:15 PM

Personally I think Combat Training ranks as one of my best ideas from PoW:E. :smallwink:

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-14, 02:01 PM

Yeah, it was a pretty good idea.

By the way, are there plans for Chimera Soul style?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-14, 02:06 PM

Yeah, it was a pretty good idea.

By the way, are there plans for Chimera Soul style?

There will be Chimera Soul Style feats. I'm getting ready to move this weekend though, so it's gonna have to wait.

Anyone want to help me move?

upho

2016-06-14, 10:12 PM

Personally I think Combat Training ranks as one of my best ideas from PoW:E. :smallwink::smallconfused: Seriously? In competition with the absolutely godlike sagacity and flair that is the name "Ambu-Lancer"?

Oh, wait, you said PoW:E... It is indeed a nifty and refreshingly different trait IMO.

And now to something completely different... I have a nitpick/question that may have already been clarified somewhere since it applies to some Paizo PrCs as well, but I haven't found anything. AFAICT, according to the "Systems and Use" RAW and for example the "Aligned Class" feature of the Evangelist as well as the "Class Features" features of the Formless Master and Greater Werewolf, your IL increases with 1.5 for each level gained which grants the benefit of those features. So it appears for example a mystic 4, Formless Master 4, Greater Werewolf 4 would have a mystic IL of 13, and for example a warder 5, Evangelist 10 would have a warder IL of no less than 19.

Am I correct to assume the intent was that those levels should give you +1 IL as normal initiator levels, but not also the normal +1/2 IL from the PrCs' non-initiator levels? Is this actually explained somewhere?

Florian

2016-06-15, 12:48 AM

@upho:

Since both PrC direct advance their associated class and also count as that class for all purposes (with the exception of the first level of Evangelist), I don´t thing the +1/2 IL level can and will come into play.

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-15, 01:55 AM

If a class fully advances maneuvers, then it is a maneuver-using class... at least for those levels. There is no reason for the +0.5 to kick in except for the levels that don't directly advance maneuvers.

So for the Evangelist, the first level is +0.5, and every level after then is +1.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-15, 07:41 AM

:smallconfused: Seriously? In competition with the absolutely godlike sagacity and flair that is the name "Ambu-Lancer"?

Oh, wait, you said PoW:E... It is indeed a nifty and refreshingly different trait IMO.

And now to something completely different... I have a nitpick/question that may have already been clarified somewhere since it applies to some Paizo PrCs as well, but I haven't found anything. AFAICT, according to the "Systems and Use" RAW and for example the "Aligned Class" feature of the Evangelist as well as the "Class Features" features of the Formless Master and Greater Werewolf, your IL increases with 1.5 for each level gained which grants the benefit of those features. So it appears for example a mystic 4, Formless Master 4, Greater Werewolf 4 would have a mystic IL of 13, and for example a warder 5, Evangelist 10 would have a warder IL of no less than 19.

Am I correct to assume the intent was that those levels should give you +1 IL as normal initiator levels, but not also the normal +1/2 IL from the PrCs' non-initiator levels? Is this actually explained somewhere?

You can laugh about the ambu-lancer all you want, but I'll show you! I'll show all of you!...ahem.

I'm waiting to hear back from some of the other PoW guys before answering this, but IIRC class features can't advance beyond your HD anyway. I'll have an answer for you as soon as I can.

EDIT:

After conversing with other members of the DSP team, MilleniaAntares hits the nail on the head.

If a class fully advances maneuvers, then it is a maneuver-using class... at least for those levels. There is no reason for the +0.5 to kick in except for the levels that don't directly advance maneuvers.

So for the Evangelist, the first level is +0.5, and every level after then is +1.

No extra +0.5 levels because those levels count as full initiator levels already.

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-15, 09:24 AM

After conversing with other members of the DSP team, MilleniaAntares hits the nail on the head.

No extra +0.5 levels because those levels count as full initiator levels already.

So Evangelist, Greater Werewolf and Formless Master can count for every level as +1 IL, if they advance a full initiator class?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-15, 09:32 AM

So Evangelist, Greater Werewolf and Formless Master can count for every level as +1 IL, if they advance a full initiator class?

Well, specifically only for those levels that advance the previous class. The levels that give "+1 level of existing class" would give a full +1 IL. The levels that do not give "+1 level of existing class" would not. And it would only apply if you were using that level of Evangelist (or whichever PrC) to advance an initiating class. Does that make sense?

Florian

2016-06-15, 09:44 AM

Does that make sense?

Could be described better, like: Any class that mimics another class and directly mimics other class features does not count as a class itself beyond pure HD-related calculations.

khadgar567

2016-06-15, 09:51 AM

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-15, 10:22 AM

Well, specifically only for those levels that advance the previous class. The levels that give "+1 level of existing class" would give a full +1 IL. The levels that do not give "+1 level of existing class" would not. And it would only apply if you were using that level of Evangelist (or whichever PrC) to advance an initiating class. Does that make sense?

Yes. The only ambiguous point left is: Do the levels without the "+1 level of existing class" count as "0" or as "+0.5"?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-15, 10:24 AM

Yes. The only ambiguous point left is: Do the levels without the "+1 level of existing class" count as "0" or as "+0.5"?

They would count as +0.5 IL, just like every other non-initiating class level.

EldritchWeaver

2016-06-15, 10:32 AM

Could be described better, like: Any class that mimics another class and directly mimics other class features does not count as a class itself beyond pure HD-related calculations.

They would count as +0.5 IL, just like every other non-initiating class level.

I feel that Florian's wording doesn't confer the +0.5 IL benefit correctly.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-15, 10:37 AM

A gentle reminder that the IL progression rules are part of PoW, not LotW. It's not something to be defined in Greater Werewolf or Formless Master because the rule is specific to Initiator Levels, and honestly the interaction is simple:

Does this level provide/advance a primary initiating class?
If Yes, +1 IL. If No, +.05 IL.

upho

2016-06-16, 01:53 AM

Thanks for all the input!

A gentle reminder that the IL progression rules are part of PoW, not LotW.I realized a bit too late that this should've been posted in a PoW thread instead of here, as this is a concern of the base System and Use rules, and the wording of the related PrC features in LotW seem to be at least as good as that of the Paizo equivalents.

Anywho, I just have one remaining question regarding this.

It's not something to be defined in Greater Werewolf or Formless Master because the rule is specific to Initiator Levels, and honestly the interaction is simple:

Does this level provide/advance a primary initiating class?
If Yes, +1 IL. If No, +.05 IL.Thanks for the clarification. Is what you're saying here the only possible conclusion when taking all the current related PoW RAW into account, or is it something that you think will need to be addressed in the upcoming PoW errata?

Judging from my own reading, even after checking up on details I probably would've missed if not for Florian and Millenia, it appears the current RAW actually does produce a +1.5 IL result due to the combined effect of the following rules (my emphasis):

"If you are a multiclass martial disciple, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial disciple class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/systems-and-use)

"At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist#TOC-Aligned-Class-Ex-) (Or similar feature.)

Gaining +1 IL/level is a class feature of full initiators (referring to the System and Use rules in their "Maneuvers" feature), and all levels in any other classes grants +1/2 IL/level, while the PrC feature explicitly grants the class features of both the PrC and the related class. So the above rules clearly say that for the purpose of calculating total IL, for example a warder 5, Evangelist 10 actually treats his "total level" as 24 (14 levels of warder + 10 levels of evangelist), and that 14 of these levels grant +1 IL/level and the remaining 10 grants +1/2 IL/level, while there is nothing in the current RAW which contradicts this.

Still, even if I'm correct I have a hard time seeing people treating the affected PrC levels in any other way than as Elric describes, as I believe people will either simply assume that's how it works just like we have, or they'll quickly introduce it as a house rule after discovering the RAW produce very awkward and likely unintentional results. So this probably isn't a big issue in practice.

Florian

2016-06-16, 03:41 AM

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-16, 07:25 AM

Let me post the text from Formless Master, because that's what matters. For better or worse I can't do anything about Evangelist, it's not my product.

Class Features: At 2nd, 3rd and 4th level, a formless master advances class features just as if he had gained a level in a class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit that a member of that class might have gained (such as Hit Dice, base attack bonus increases, or skill points). This essentially means that he adds those levels of formless master to his levels of the previous class and determines his class features (such as power points, initiator level, spellcasting, or bonus feats) accordingly. If the character had more than one class before he became a formless master, he must choose one of them to augment with this benefit; once made, this choice cannot be changed.

The bolded text is the important part. The first sentence describes what doesn't advance from your previous class. The second sentence describes what does advance. Note how things like initiator level and spellcasting are called out specifically? They function identically to how they do as if you had taken a level in the (for lack of a better term) base class. There is no ambiguity.

Florian

2016-06-16, 07:48 AM

@Elricaltovilla:

This is a playtest thread, so we´re talking, amongst other things, about the possible Worst Case Scenarios. This has nothing to do with personal feelings or accusation but just about handling things.

Three of five levels of Formless Master advance the chosen base/core class. Amongst other things, that means the the "worth" of a level of Formless Master can be pretty much based on the "worth" of the base class it is chosen to advance.

Applying 4 levels of Formless Master to Mystic Theurge is a thing, applying 5 levels to Agent of the Grave even more so, as it covers and entirely different PrC completely.

Simply put, the mechanics here are extremely wide open to abuse.

Edit: And yes, I can fully understand the basic intention. "but you loose two levels!". That means nothing when you actually gain 3+ levels on the way ...

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-16, 08:07 AM

Florian

2016-06-16, 09:02 AM

No need to apologize at any point. *laughs* I´ve been working in advertisement a decade and we had a principle we called the "ignorant test". Meaning we create something and then test it against someone who has absolutely no prior knowledge about what it is and see how he handle it.

In contrast to that, I know what you want to say and intentionally set out to destroy it. For me, personally, the important question rather is where you draw the line in the sand, if ever.

PsyBomb

2016-06-16, 10:50 AM

@Florian:

I'll note here that, behind the scenes, I have an ever-evolving build I call the Chained Classes, where I push for as many PrC capstones as I possibly can while maintaining some semblance of synergy working toward a common goal. My current record is on a Mystic base, either Human or else leading with GCube 2. I managed to get four Prestige Classes to cap, five if I'm not limited by setting and go Evangelist (the four being Forgelord, Gravity Slime Master, Mongrel, and Formless Master in that order).

Here's the thing I discovered. It doesn't matter what initial classes you use, the build trends toward the mid-low T3 range. In function, each different class you chain in will cost that initial class one to three levels. In the Mystic build, I end up with an IL of 14 and a class level of 8. While that's not BAD per se, it denies the 8 and 9 level maneuvers. This really hurts casters, because they heavily depend on that CL and don't get half of their off-levels.

Florian

2016-06-16, 11:28 AM

PrC themselves are pretty uninteresting in PF. They are not the prime source of synergies in this system.

ATalsen

2016-06-16, 04:34 PM

I think both, Formless Master as well as Evangelist are conceptional pretty flawed and could have been handled better. In essence, both are actually simple templates with an advancement scheme based on HD and could tie in better with the "Monsters as characters" or more advanced "Racial Points" rules and work more closely with APL.

I'm not really worried that DSP will revise Formless Master to be a template, but I did want to say that I appreciate it more and will find more use for it as a Prestige Class than I would if it were a template.

DSP has also said they will not be working with racial points, and more importantly none of their published races have RP info, so if they suddenly went with an RP cost here, that would make it incompatible with their other offerings.

A Prestige Class has costs built in, such as entry requirements and in this case ‘lost casting/initiating levels’ that would not exist as a template. I can more easily integrate a prestige class into a campaign than I can a template – a template really requires that I do *something* with *other PCs* to balance giving the template to one PC, while a PrC like Formless Master is intended to be balanced even if only one person decides to take it (or any other Prestige class).

Heck, I’d like to see the Werewolf template as a class too (like DSP is doing with races, if the Gelatinous Cube race is an example) – I’d get more mileage out of that in my campaigns. As it is I’m planning to buy this when it comes out *because* it has prestige classes and a new Discipline.

upho

2016-06-16, 04:44 PM

I apologize for not being clear enough. There is no RAW ambiguity about how Formless Master, Greater Werewolf, Greater Vampire, Gravity Slime Master, or any of the other DSP prestige classes that contain the class feature "+1 level of existing class features" interact with the rules regarding Initiator Level.

As for how potentially abuseable the prestige class is: the answer is "About as much as the class it advances, minus 1 or 2 levels depending on whether or not you take the final level of Formless Master." Because if you advance mystic theurge, then you're going to get advancement comparable to mystic theurge. If you advance Agent of the Grave, you'll be getting advancement comparable to Agent of the Grave. You're always going to lose at least one level of that previous class. That means a loss of caster level, spells known, maneuvers and stances, power points, and whatever other resources your class has to hand.

As a bit of correction though, you can only apply 3 levels of Mystic Theurge or Agent of the Grave. Because there are only 3 instances of "+1 level of existing class features" in Formless Master's advancement table.I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say you're absolutely right about every feature you mention except IL. And you're right that there's no ambiguity in the current RAW, because very clearly IL advances with both primary initiator class and other classes.

A primary initiator with 4 levels of Formless Master means that yes, 3 of those levels advance his primary initiator class IL, just as normal. But nowhere does it say that he does not count all his 4 levels of Formless Master as granting +1/2 IL. That is the problem.

The System and Use RAW very clearly says to count all levels from classes other than the primary initiator class as granting +1/2 IL. And for example a warder 4 / Formless Master 4 still has 4 levels of such "other classes", regardless of whether 3 of those levels also happen to have class features which explicitly grant him +1 IL/level advancement.

Do you see the problem?

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-16, 07:48 PM

I think at this point it's probably best saved as yet another thing to toss onto the Path of War errata list.

In the meanwhile, we can just link one of the posts up above.

upho

2016-06-16, 09:17 PM

I think at this point it's probably best saved as yet another thing to toss onto the Path of War errata list.

In the meanwhile, we can just link one of the posts up above.Yeah. Although it's actually also an issue for some Paizo corner cases as well, such as a monk 5 / Evangelist 10 gaining 16 uses of Stunning Fist per day, or (if having the Monastic Legacy feat) unarmed strike damage equal to that of a 19th level monk.

In short, this isn't really an issue isolated to DSP stuff and they can't of course change the problematic Paizo rule texts, although they could eliminate the problem for options created by them by adding a few words to their affected PrC features and System and Use.

I've posted a question about this on the Paizo boards. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tqcl?Evangelist-Monk-and-Stunning-Fist-Monastic) Please post comments regarding this there and hit the "FAQ" request so we might save DSP some work. :smalltongue:

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-20, 08:05 AM

Just a minor update, but the varsärk has been edited to allow for skald compatibility.

For those of you wondering where the Chimera Soul Style feats are, blame Keledrath. He took all the good ideas for his shifting feats. :smalltongue:

upho

2016-06-20, 11:35 AM

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-20, 12:10 PM

Cool. My only question is if a skald in wolf form can actually use his Perform skill to continue his raging song, according to RAW? If so, I guess it would be more appropriate to call it "raging howl"... :smalltongue:

And what about say a skald with the war drummer archetype? Would that actually be compatible with the varsärk?

(On a more nitpicky note, the name Varsärk rubs me the wrong way, since it essentially translates into "in human shape". But I guess if you don't know that... Ooops! :smallredface: Move along, nothing to see here!)

The skald's raging song does not require a perform check in any way, shape or form, whether to start or maintain.

A skald is trained to use music, oration, and similar performances to inspire his allies to feats of strength and ferocity. At 1st level, a skald can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. For each level thereafter, he can use raging song for 2 additional rounds per day.

Starting a raging song is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. A raging song cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the skald is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action each round to maintain it. A raging song counts as the bard's bardic performance special ability for any effect that affects bardic performances. A skald may learn bard masterpieces.

A raging song has audible components, but not visual components. Affected allies must be able to hear the skald for the song to have any effect. A deaf skald has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use a raging song. If he fails this check, the attempt still counts against his daily limit. Deaf creatures are immune to raging songs.

If a raging song affects allies, when the skald begins a raging song and at the start of each ally's turn in which they can hear the raging song, the skald's allies must decide whether to accept or refuse its effects. This is not an action. Unconscious allies automatically accept the song. If accepted, the raging song's effects last for that ally's turn or until the song ends, whichever comes first.

Again, same for the War drummer archetype. There is nothing specifically preventing the two from working together.

If you want to nitpick the name, you'll have to take that up with Andreas, who is Swedish, my boss and also a viking.:smalltongue: He's the one who suggested the name.

Lord_Gareth

2016-06-20, 01:35 PM

upho

2016-06-20, 09:24 PM

The skald's raging song does not require a perform check in any way, shape or form, whether to start or maintain.Ah, you're right. (Hmm... Wonder why I somehow thought otherwise...) Still, I must say I absolutely love the mental image of a wolf growling and howling the party into frenzy. Not to mention one who is actually banging its paws on a big drum for the same effect! :smalltongue:

If you want to nitpick the name, you'll have to take that up with Andreas, who is Swedish, my boss and also a viking.:smalltongue: He's the one who suggested the name.Well, Old Norse is of course rather different from modern Swedish, so it's not impossible he knew the etymology of bärsärk, which is rather widely known, and simply mixed it with varulv (werewolf in Swedish), which sounds pretty cool, but... (More etymology nerding below.)

Bearsark, from which we get 'berserk', was a garment made from dead bears that ferocious warriors wore into battle. The varsark is the same thing but with wolves. I dunno what you're translating from.AFAIK, you're right about the etymology of berserk (or berserkr in Old Norse). But the wolf equivalent is called úlfheðinn (úlfheðnar in plural) in Old Norse, and literally means wolf pelt. Here's what Wikipedia says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker), which I think is a pretty decent summary on what is known about these "elite berserkers of Odin":

The Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), another term associated with berserkers, mentioned in the Vatnsdæla saga, Haraldskvæði and the Völsunga saga, were said to wear the pelt of a wolf when they entered battle. Úlfhéðnar are sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: [Odin's] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk'." In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts (below) a scene of Odin with a berserker—"a wolf skinned warrior with the apparently one-eyed dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang... and the god Odin"—with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features.

Perhaps more importantly, the var-part, or were in Old English (as in varulv in Swedish or werewolf in English, from the German word warwulf or werwolf), literally means man. Hence werewolf means "man-wolf". Very appropriate and to the point, I think. Note also that the word var (or varulv) didn't even exist in Old Norse AFAIK, or at least not with that meaning.

And särk is a word that still exists in Swedish, having pretty much the same meaning as in Old Norse AFAIK, and is the word for a piece of clothing probably best described as a loosely fitting rough shirt, or coat. So varsärk would literally translate into "man-shirt" or "man-coat". And if varsärk is intended to have a contextual meaning similar to berserk, the word would actually probably be best described as "in human shape", or perhaps "in furious human form" or similar:

To "go berserk" was to "hamask", which translates as "change form", in this case, as with the sense "enter a state of wild fury". One who could transform as a berserker was typically thought of as "hamrammr" or "shapestrong". For example, the band of men that go with Skallagrim in Egil's Saga to see King Harald about his brother Thorolf's murder are described as "the hardest of men, with a touch of the uncanny about a number of them...they [were] built and shaped more like trolls than human beings". This is generally interpreted as the band of men being "hamrammr".

May I suggest Ulvsärk, which could be "a wolf version" of berserk? Or simply the actually historically correct term, in the anglicized form Ulvhedinn? And if you don't like the ulv-part, you could perhaps put something together from freki or valdr, both being used as alternative words for "wolf", I believe.

BTW, Order of the Stick, Paizo and DSP are at least partially responsible for me having this pretty useless amateur-ish nerdy knowledge about Old Norse, since that mix of elements is probably what gave me the idea of running a PF campaign in the first place, and then of making a setting largely based on Old Norse mythology and viking culture... :smallwink:

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-21, 07:10 AM

I appreciate the etymology lesson, I do. As a writer, it's always interesting to learn about words and their history and I don't get many opportunities to learn the etymology of languages other than English, so thank you for the lesson.

But I think we're going to stick with varsärk, for a couple reasons.

1. I like it as a portmanteau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau) of varulv and bärsärk. If you take the word in that context, it's an extremely apt name as the class is literally about battle raging so hard you turn into a wolf. So, while it may not be strictly accurate (and for that I apologize) in terms of language of origin, it is an excellent descriptor of the class.

2. If I were to go with the more accurate name you provided, úlfheðinn, I'm fairly certain that 90% of our readership would be unable to pronounce the name. Which is unfortunate, but since I'm not even 100% sure how to pronounce it, I think it'd be unfair to foist that problem off on our dear readers.

MilleniaAntares

2016-06-21, 09:45 AM

For those of you wondering where the Chimera Soul Style feats are, blame Keledrath. He took all the good ideas for his shifting feats. :smalltongue:
Perhaps you can take a page from Fool's Errand style feats and have one of them be a floating shifting feat?

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-22, 01:37 AM

I woke up at 2:30 AM (my time) because I suddenly remembered that the var in varsärk came from varg not varulv. So yeah. I'm going back to sleep.

upho

2016-06-22, 11:13 AM

I woke up at 2:30 AM (my time) because I suddenly remembered that the var in varsärk came from varg not varulv. So yeah. I'm going back to sleep.Ha ha! Oh my! :smalleek: I'm sorry for filling up your head with this nonsense...

...and I still cannot stop laughing! :smallbiggrin:

That's what I call dedication! Heck, you'd deserve a seven figure salary if you'd put that much energy into your day job.

Anywho, varg makes a lot more sense (pronounced "varj" (http://sv.bab.la/lexikon/svensk-engelsk/varg), modern Swedish word for wolf for those of you who happen to read this). Thanks and sleep tight!

For when you wake up:

But I think we're going to stick with varsärk, for a couple reasons.

1. I like it as a portmanteau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau) of varulv and bärsärk. If you take the word in that context, it's an extremely apt name as the class is literally about battle raging so hard you turn into a wolf. So, while it may not be strictly accurate (and for that I apologize) in terms of language of origin, it is an excellent descriptor of the class.Portmanteau? I learned a new word, thanks! Viewed in that light, I agree. And no need to apologize, I'm (hopefully) hardly not what you'd call a good representative of your typical reader in this case. Seriously, you'd have to have pretty damn weird hobbies AND probably speak Swedish to make the same (wrong) connection as I did...

2. If I were to go with the more accurate name you provided, úlfheðinn, I'm fairly certain that 90% of our readership would be unable to pronounce the name. Which is unfortunate, but since I'm not even 100% sure how to pronounce it, I think it'd be unfair to foist that problem off on our dear readers.You think? :smalltongue:

I'd wager basically only Icelanders and a few language or viking nerds would know how to pronounce that, since AFAIK that's the only modern language containing the letter "ð" (pronounced as the tonal "th" in "father" or "that", while "þ" is pronounced as the atonal "th" in "thick" or "thigh"). I guess a typical anglicised (and swedicised) version would be ulvhedinn or ulfhedinn, so that's what I used for my test build "Ylva Forada Ulfhedinn". But varsärk is still easier (just ignore those weird Swedish dots above the second "a" :smallwink:) and actually sounds better IMO, at least when pronounced as an English-speaking person would pronounce it.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-22, 11:53 AM

That's what I call dedication! Heck, you'd deserve a seven figure salary if you'd put that much energy into your day job.

Six figures is plenty, I'm not a greedy person.

Sayt

2016-06-22, 03:15 PM

"Varsark? In human shape?"
"Yeah"
"A what in human shape?"
>Gets shown, and eviscerated.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-22, 03:22 PM

"Varsark? In human shape?"
"Yeah"
"A what in human shape?"
>Gets shown, and eviscerated.

I imagine that happens a lot with the various PrCs and archetypes in this book.

upho

2016-06-23, 01:06 AM

"Varsark? In human shape?"
"Yeah"
"A what in human shape?"
>Gets shown, and eviscerated.:smallbiggrin:
"Swedish setting with Old Norse etymology nerd"-version:
"Varsärk? A shirt for angry humans, an angry human in a shirt, or an angry shirt in human shape?"
"Yeah"
"Excuse me? You said varsärk, which in this context, according to the Western Germanic langu... AAARGhhHh!!!"
...
...
"Varsärk. Told 'im!"

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-27, 01:21 PM

Seven new feats and one new trait added to the playtest, including the style feats for Chimera Soul.

upho

2016-06-28, 12:12 AM

Seven new feats and one new trait added to the playtest, including the style feats for Chimera Soul.My assessment:

The Chimera Style and Chimera Soul Dominance benefits are probably often missed by a lot of natural attackers and other AoMF users, although likely a lot less by initiator versions. Still OK IMO, albeit perhaps a tad boring.
Chimera Soul Spikes is also a decent "weakness mitigator/versatility improver", although I believe this will quickly lose value once you've got reliable flight. Question: it doesn't say whether the ranged attack is treated as if fired by a missile weapon or as if using a thrown weapon. It says "fire", but since it's a natural attack it's a bit confusing, and I'm not really able to tell whether the intent was I add my Str or my Dex to the damage. A clarification might be good?
Crane’s Eye is nice, rewarding you for being a "good doggie", I guess... :smalltongue:
Giga Roar is also nice, and I love the name!
Morphic Venom is great insofar I think the Steel Serpent and Chimera Soul disciplines really ought to have their own special thematic combo-feat. The benefit is OK, although I wonder if a DC increase or some kind of limited-use immunity penetration would've been a better idea. Did you consider this?
Style Shift oh yes! Thank you for returning my first combat round to full capacity, I really appreciate it!

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-28, 08:09 AM

My assessment:

The Chimera Style and Chimera Soul Dominance benefits are probably often missed by a lot of natural attackers and other AoMF users, although likely a lot less by initiator versions. Still OK IMO, albeit perhaps a tad boring.
Chimera Soul Spikes is also a decent "weakness mitigator/versatility improver", although I believe this will quickly lose value once you've got reliable flight. Question: it doesn't say whether the ranged attack is treated as if fired by a missile weapon or as if using a thrown weapon. It says "fire", but since it's a natural attack it's a bit confusing, and I'm not really able to tell whether the intent was I add my Str or my Dex to the damage. A clarification might be good?
Crane’s Eye is nice, rewarding you for being a "good doggie", I guess... :smalltongue:
Giga Roar is also nice, and I love the name!
Morphic Venom is great insofar I think the Steel Serpent and Chimera Soul disciplines really ought to have their own special thematic combo-feat. The benefit is OK, although I wonder if a DC increase or some kind of limited-use immunity penetration would've been a better idea. Did you consider this?
Style Shift oh yes! Thank you for returning my first combat round to full capacity, I really appreciate it!

I wanted Chimera Soul Dominance to give Frightful Presence, but got talked out of that. Boring is OK, I think. It's a nice boost without crossing into crazy shenanigans territory. Plus Dominance allows you to treat your weapons as adamantine for hardness purposes so you can be wolverine. :smalltongue:

Chimera Soul Spikes is a natural attack, and so would use STR to damage as a base, just like the manticore (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/manticore) does.

Giga Roar's name was Psybomb's idea. I couldn't resist, so I'm glad somebody likes it.

As for Morphic Venom, immunity piercing isn't really necessary since Sting and Prana maneuvers aren't actually poisons, so they're not affected by poison immunity. In addition, DC boosting is also probably unnecessary since Steel Serpent has some of the best DC boosting stuff out there when you combine its stances and chain its maneuvers properly. This feat was also designed with some of the errata we've been working on in mind, so there's that to consider as well. As a side note, no I'm not going to discuss PoW errata in this thread, it'll get all the attention it needs once its ready to go out.

Style shift looks to be fun. I'm looking for an opportunity to take advantage of its combo with Fuse Styles for some crazy shenanigans down the line. I wonder how much stuff I can actually load up onto one swift action...

Canine

2016-06-28, 08:19 AM

Should Chimera Soul Spikes have "knows a maneuver" as a prerequisite, since otherwise the feat is a blank? Or is that common among maneuver based feats?

Do the 3 qualities from Chimera Soul Dominance stack with the 1 quality from Chimera Soul Style, for a total of 4 qualities?

Nitpick - Chimera Soul Dominance calls out Chimera Soul Spines as a prerequisite.

The material looks quite interesting overall.

Elricaltovilla

2016-06-28, 08:28 AM

Should Chimera Soul Spikes have "knows a maneuver" as a prerequisite, since otherwise the feat is a blank? Or is that common among maneuver based feats?

It doesn't need that because the prerequisite "maneuver known" is contained in Chimera Soul Style.

Do the 3 qualities from Chimera Soul Dominance stack with the 1 quality from Chimera Soul Style, for a total of 4 qualities?

No, you get three total.

Nitpick - Chimera Soul Dominance calls out Chimera Soul Spines as a prerequisite.

The material looks quite interesting overall.

That would be because I think spines sounds much cooler than spikes, but the proper name for the natural attack is spikes, so I have to deal with it. :smallfrown:

Thank you for the catch, I'm glad you're enjoying the material, please feel free to share any additional feedback you have!

upho

2016-06-28, 12:29 PM

I wanted Chimera Soul Dominance to give Frightful Presence, but got talked out of that.:smallfrown: What? But... Why? :smallconfused:

Dude, seriously, listen: you realize we could've, like, gone totally MoMS fused Black Soul Seraph Annihilation Dominance Style and like scared the total crap outta EVERYONE?!?! Would've been like sooo freakin' POWAH-MUNSTAH-MAZING!!!1!

Boring is OK, I think. It's a nice boost without crossing into crazy shenanigans territory.How very grown-up of you. :smallwink: But yeah, I can agree boring is OK in this case. Might even add a touch of seriousness to a discipline otherwise rather crazy thanks to the inherent silliness potential of natural attacks. :smalltongue:

(Ehh... My mental image of Chimera Soul is now an ICBM launch control room filled with crazy clowns running around laughing, honking horns and throwing pies in each other's faces, and a blue dragonborn guy desperately trying to keep them from pushing random buttons.... Yeah, I should probably take my medicine now. :smallsmile:)

Plus Dominance allows you to treat your weapons as adamantine for hardness purposes so you can be wolverine. :smalltongue:I didn't actually consider that, I admit... *scratches cheek beneath wild-grown sideburn and lights up cigar*

Chimera Soul Spikes is a natural attack, and so would use STR to damage as a base, just like the manticore (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/manticore) does.Ah, of course! Well, totally spot-on flavor-wise, but unless I'm missing something, I think you should give the poor little spikes a chance to get some love also from Huge sized Str builds. Meaning I think you should make the attacks compatible with related stuff like Belt of Mighty Hurling. If the spikes remain the special snowflakes they are now, I unfortunately see very little reason for a natural attacker to ever go further than CS Style. Especially since Dominance already has a rather limited value, as CS Style and a +3 AoMF (or +4 for rare DR/adamantine) will penetrate all forms of alignment/material DR anyways.

Actually, when thinking about it, the spikes probably need some kind of increasing benefit in order to remain at all attractive beyond 10th level or so, even if treated as thrown weapon attacks. How about increasing the number of attacks and/or uses somewhat in higher levels?

As for Morphic Venom, immunity piercing isn't really necessary since Sting and Prana maneuvers aren't actually poisons, so they're not affected by poison immunity. In addition, DC boosting is also probably unnecessary since Steel Serpent has some of the best DC boosting stuff out there when you combine its stances and chain its maneuvers properly.Sorry, totally forgot about the non-poison poison. Your reminder makes the benefit feel a lot more attractive, I must say.

This feat was also designed with some of the errata we've been working on in mind, so there's that to consider as well. As a side note, no I'm not going to discuss PoW errata in this thread, it'll get all the attention it needs once its ready to go out.Oh thanks! I got more than my fill talking about errata related stuff during the discussion in the Fool's Errand thread, at least for now.

Style shift looks to be fun. I'm looking for an opportunity to take advantage of its combo with Fuse Styles for some crazy shenanigans down the line. I wonder how much stuff I can actually load up onto one swift action...Why swift when there's Combat Style Master free? It won't let you adapt a new stance, but that likely won't be necessary in a large majority of fights anyways (somewhat dependent on discipline and stance choices, of course).

ATalsen

2016-06-28, 03:30 PM

but unless I'm missing something, I think you should give the poor little spikes a chance to get some love also from Huge sized Str builds. Meaning I think you should make the attacks compatible with related stuff like Belt of Mighty Hurling.

The reading I have of the feat indicates that the damage does increase by size, and STR is already added.

Is what you are looking for the ability to use STR instead of DEX to attack (via a specific magic item)?

If the spikes remain the special snowflakes they are now, I unfortunately see very little reason for a natural attacker to ever go further than CS Style.

I re-read the feat and have to agree that its less good than I thought initially. Initially I thought it was just expend a maneuver to get a use of ranged spikes as a primary attack that could be part of your natural attack routine – that seemed pretty good. But I see now that it requires a dedicated Standard action to use, which makes it much less attractive.

Maybe make it a swift action + burn a maneuver to use it as part of an attack? Then it acts like a boost and costs like a boost, so balance should not be an issue. The benefit then becomes the ability to (1/round) convert any ready maneuver to an ranged attack-type boost, which seems pretty good.

The drawback in any case is that it’s a ranged attack and those provoke, so even including it in a series of natural attacks is kind of offset by that provocation.

As it is, I agree with upho in that it’s not worth picking up Chimera Soul Spikes on its own merits – you get it if you really want the capstone of Adamaintine claws.

PsyBomb

2016-06-28, 07:42 PM

upho

2016-06-28, 08:11 PM

The reading I have of the feat indicates that the damage does increase by size, and STR is already added.

Is what you are looking for the ability to use STR instead of DEX to attack (via a specific magic item)?Oh sorry, just realized what I wrote is easily misunderstood. My point was that the spikes are currently neither a missile or a thrown weapon attack, but a pretty unique ranged natural attack. A such, no items, feats or other benefits limited to thrown weapons apply, including Mighty Hurling. And without such a belt, a Huge-sized Str-based build (which is bound to have a pretty poor Dex) won't even be able to hit its own (voluminous) butt with the spikes. So yeah, the spikes are bound to get pretty awful for Str-based builds a few levels after they'd first be able to take the feat. And unfortunately, even if the spikes are changed to be treated as thrown ranged attacks, they'll will remain far from worthy of the quite significant investments their use requires until you reach a level when the 10k for a Belt of Mighty Hurling is pocket change (so somewhere around level 14 or so).

And then there's the question of whether making three ranged attacks is ever worth a feat, 2 ranks in Know (nature), 10k, an expended maneuver and a standard action. And if it is, during just how many levels will that remain true for most builds?

I re-read the feat and have to agree that its less good than I thought initially. Initially I thought it was just expend a maneuver to get a use of ranged spikes as a primary attack that could be part of your natural attack routine – that seemed pretty good. But I see now that it requires a dedicated Standard action to use, which makes it much less attractive.

Maybe make it a swift action + burn a maneuver to use it as part of an attack? Then it acts like a boost and costs like a boost, so balance should not be an issue. The benefit then becomes the ability to (1/round) convert any ready maneuver to an ranged attack-type boost, which seems pretty good.

The drawback in any case is that it’s a ranged attack and those provoke, so even including it in a series of natural attacks is kind of offset by that provocation.I may be wrong here, but I believe you misunderstand the primary purpose of the spikes somewhat. My impression is they're intended to increase versatility by giving you a ranged attack option without requiring you to buy and carry expensive manufactured ranged weaponry. So think of it as the "emergency" thrown weapon, Xbow or longbow at least earlier level weapon wielding builds often carry. Not as something you'd ever want to use while in melee, but more as something you'd use only when melee isn't an option. (Though I question how many levels that use will be worth a feat, since the attacks are locked at three, and obtaining flight is still going to be a high priority for a Chimera Soul focused build, and flight removes the need of ranged weaponry in a very large majority of combat situations.)

As it is, I agree with upho in that it’s not worth picking up Chimera Soul Spikes on its own merits – you get it if you really want the capstone of Adamaintine claws.Which you can get via a +4 AoMF, which also nets you silver, cold iron and magic, while CS Style gives you alignment (freely chosen when entering the style stance). In short, I think Dominance is basically only worth it if you: a) won't be able to have a +3 enhancement bonus on your natural attacks (or +4 if adamantine actually is important), b) don't have and won't be able to get suitable DR penetrating maneuvers to compensate, and c) play in a game where this can be expected to be important. Though the cost of Dominance will of course decrease if you're able to get plenty of use out of CS Spikes (meaning the benefit has been improved), thus only need to invest one additional feat to gain Dominance.

upho

2016-06-28, 08:20 PM

Just as a reminder, Akashic Mysteries contains a pair of feats relevant to the current conversation. Willful Throw lets you use Cha for ranged attacks with investment, Powerful Throw lets you use Strength (no investment needed)Oh, that's nice. But I think paying two feats for three soon rather mediocre ranged attacks when you otherwise focus on melee is unfortunately far from worth it. And a feat is otherwise also easily worth more than 10k during a majority of levels, so at least for Str builds, Mighty Hurling is going to remain the superior choice.

ATalsen

2016-06-28, 11:27 PM

And without such a belt, a Huge-sized Str-based build (which is bound to have a pretty poor Dex) won't even be able to hit its own (voluminous) butt with the spikes. So yeah, the spikes are bound to get pretty awful for Str-based builds a few levels after they'd first be able to take the feat.

Yes, I agree that since most natural attackers will focus on size/strength that spikes won't be of much use to them. A dex-based natural attack will get more mileage, but even for them I think its a marginal benefit at most - not worth the feat for that benefit alone, as it is currently written.

I may be wrong here, but I believe you misunderstand the primary purpose of the spikes somewhat. My impression is they're intended to increase versatility by giving you a ranged attack option without requiring you to buy and carry expensive manufactured ranged weaponry.

Na, I kind of got that impression myself, but I'm of the opinion that a 'backup ranged weapon' serves very little purpose. Certainly you can just buy a bow and do as well in most cases, for vastly cheaper.

And frankly I curse the times when PCs at my table think its ok to grab a poor backup weapon and try to engage a primary threat with it. I'd much rather see them take the round getting out and drinking a potion of Fly.

(Though I question how many levels that use will be worth a feat, since the attacks are locked at three, and obtaining flight is still going to be a high priority for a Chimera Soul focused build, and flight removes the need of ranged weaponry in a very large majority of combat situations.)

Exactly!

Given the marginal nature of spikes as a ranged attack, I was hoping it would get converted such that it could be used in conjunction with a full attack of other natural attacks to make it more attractive as a feat in and of itself.

Which you can get via a +4 AoMF, which also nets you silver, cold iron and magic, while CS Style gives you alignment (freely chosen when entering the style stance).

Actually you can't get the benefit of cutting through *Hardness* with an AoMF - which is why I called out Adamantine as the goal for the capstone feat. This lets you carve up items with sunder.

Alignment is certainly nice, and its nice to have the option to cut thru DR/Hardness using a set of feats as opposed to wealth in order to have different things to spend your wealth on, or to work in a wealth-poor campaign.

Canine

2016-06-29, 07:44 AM

Perhaps make the number of spikes you shoot increase with the level of maneuver expended? And/or give a +hit/+dmg bonus based on the maneuver level?

ShadeRaven

2016-07-06, 04:00 PM

Provided I can sell it to my DM, the next character I am going to play will be a werewolf hobgoblin Tetori Monk 10/Lore Warden Fighter 5/Greater Werewolf 4. I'm going to miss the dimensional anchor at Tetori 13 unless I am allowed to buyout the LA, but there is always a phase locking Amulet of Mighty fists and my trips and grapples are going to be scary.

Adam1949

2016-07-07, 03:09 AM

Vhaidara

2016-07-07, 07:44 AM

I know it's a bit of a weird thing to ask, but would it be possible to add the spells included in Lords of the Wild as Adept spells? It just feels strange to me that various spells that would fit perfectly for "tribal religious spellcasting-types" or "lesser priests of the moon" aren't available as Adept spells, is all.

Going to be 100% honest here: I completely forgot adepts were a thing, much less a thing with a unique spell list. Currently evaluating which spells they should get.

EldritchWeaver

2016-07-27, 06:21 PM

Regarding Feral Vitality: I've seen a thread where people were discussing a possible feat granting fast healing. There was a common opinion that the fast healing should scale, which Feral Vitality doesn't. I can understand the scaling because the more hp overall you have and the more damage you can receive, the less impact this feat has during a battle. It seems off to me that a 20th level character benefits less than at level 1 from Feral Vitality. So is this restriction deliberate?

Vhaidara

2016-07-27, 06:48 PM

The thing with fast healing is that it's generally relevant in 2 amounts.
1. 1: this is the point where you will start each fight at full HP, generally.
2. multiples of 5: this is where is actually heals enough to be effective in combat. Fast Healing, at its core, is reactive, 1/turn DR/-. If you have DR 5/-, and get hit 5 times, it negates 25 damage immediately. If you have Fast Healing 5, it negates 5 damage when your turn starts.

Feral Vitality is also a modified version of a Bloodforge feat, Overflowing Life. And since the goal is to fulfill option 1, I don't feel it's necessary to scale it up to the point of being useful in the second sense in high-mid OP groups, which in turn would make it probably broken in low OP groups.

Also, small update: fixed up the wording in Mithral Armament to make it generally cleaner and more user friendly

EldritchWeaver

2016-07-28, 01:52 AM

The thing with fast healing is that it's generally relevant in 2 amounts.
1. 1: this is the point where you will start each fight at full HP, generally.
2. multiples of 5: this is where is actually heals enough to be effective in combat. Fast Healing, at its core, is reactive, 1/turn DR/-. If you have DR 5/-, and get hit 5 times, it negates 25 damage immediately. If you have Fast Healing 5, it negates 5 damage when your turn starts.

Feral Vitality is also a modified version of a Bloodforge feat, Overflowing Life. And since the goal is to fulfill option 1, I don't feel it's necessary to scale it up to the point of being useful in the second sense in high-mid OP groups, which in turn would make it probably broken in low OP groups.

The proposal was that the scaling was dependent on the character level. So at low levels it would remain at fast healing 2 and only at high levels it would actually reach fast healing 5.

PsyBomb

2016-07-28, 06:52 AM

The proposal was that the scaling was dependent on the character level. So at low levels it would remain at fast healing 2 and only at high levels it would actually reach fast healing 5.

That's... honestly, false scaling. Fast Healing 2 is indistinguishable from 10 at high levels on a practical level. Both are irrelevant in combat, but will top you off between fights unless you're being rushed for some reason.

Vhaidara

2016-07-28, 08:28 AM

The proposal was that the scaling was dependent on the character level. So at low levels it would remain at fast healing 2 and only at high levels it would actually reach fast healing 5.

The thing is, it's already a feat that people are going to complain about (Fast Healing is generally perceived as much stronger than it is, past the first point), and the difference at high levels between Fast Healing 2 and Fast Healing 5 is actually almost completely nonexistant (3HP/round). And, as mentioned, it's a modified version of an existing feat from Bloodforge, Overflowing Life, and I'd rather not just make a stronger version of it.

upho

2016-07-28, 11:47 PM

That's... honestly, false scaling. Fast Healing 2 is indistinguishable from 10 at high levels on a practical level. Both are irrelevant in combat, but will top you off between fights unless you're being rushed for some reason.QFT.

From both a player and a DM perspective, I think Fast Healing even as high as 15 or 20 is pretty much just convenient out-of-combat healing that won't do much to increase a creature's chances of surviving a higher level encounter. And IME, PCs very rarely die from damage taken over the course of several rounds; they die from focused fire during a few enemy turns or from just a single offensive action taken by an unusually dangerous or lucky enemy. (And IIRC, even a mere CR 13 dragon, straight from the Paizo bestiaries, can have a full attack with an average damage output exceeding 130 and still retain an accuracy very near that of an "average" CR 13 monster. In effect, there's a relatively high probability the dragon could one-shot even a pretty durable 12th level PC.)

I also think the benefit of Fast Healing in general often seems far over-rated, with some people seemingly considering it almost equivalent to DR /- of the same value for some weird reason, and others seemingly believing out-of-combat healing is a highly limited resource in most parties and games. Strange and a bit annoying IMO, since these erroneous beliefs also appear to have pushed the cost of low value Fast Healing options unreasonably high and to fuel the cries of "OP" whenever an actually useful higher level in-combat Fast Healing option is suggested. :smallannoyed:

Halae

2016-07-29, 04:48 PM

In my opinion, the real utility of having constantly active Fast Healing isn't the healing it gives you, but the fact that it negates bleed effects and saves resources, and lets you stay alive and get back up if your character's been reduced to negative HP. All told, it's basically a safety net versus some very specific conditions, making it comparable to Diehard, which is a feat nobody takes outside of some incredibly specific half-orc builds. It's more useful than diehard because you don't need to nearly die to make use of it, but the idea is the same.

If it was Regeneration, I could understand the extensive discussion; Regen basically negates the death condition unless your opponent meets certain circumstances. But Fast Healing? Nah.

upho

2016-08-01, 09:23 AM

In a discussion about Seize the Opportunity, the Vital Strike chain and size increases, it struck me that Magnitude Shift combined with other DSP content (Mighty Frame, gamla aasimar/skinwalker/tiefling) and Ascetic Style, temple swords with Effortless Lace plus the usual US damage die size boosters (Monk's Robe, strong jaw etc) might push AoO damage higher than ever before, possibly at a relatively early level. So I made a simple build outline to see if such a boosted "Ascetic Vital Opportunity Strike" is possible, whether it can reasonably consistently be made more than once per round, and how insane such an AoO's damage die size could be before higher levels.

If my interpretations of the current RAW are correct, it seems that such an AoO is (not surprisingly) possible and can be combined with other options to rather reliably be triggered one or more times per round before higher levels. But much more importantly, even before Greater VS comes into play at bab +15, this AoO's damage die size is simply the most stupidly insane overkill cheese I've ever seen on an AoO in PF: 192d6!

That is 672 average damage just from the temple sword's damage die when used in one single AoO, made up to 6 times per round and usually at least twice per round with a +29 attack bonus, at 13th level! :smalleek:

Or did I simply miss that this kind of damage is considered old news and is to be expected? If not, please help me find where I've made a major error which makes this nightmare go away, because I seriously don't want to this to be possible:

Gargantuan Ragebred Skinwalker Lore Warden Fighter 5, Master of Many Styles Monk 2, Formless Master (Fighter) 4, Ordained Dervish Defender Warder 2

CLASS AND FEAT PROGRESSION (retraining not shown)
1 Fighter 1 Beasthide ShiftB, Dirty Fighting
2 MoMS 1 Abomination ShiftB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Stunning FistB
3 MoMS 2 Ascetic StyleB, Mighty Frame
4 Fighter 2 Improved TripB, Magnitude ShiftB
5 Fighter 3 Seize the Opportunity
6 Fighter 4 Ascetic FormB
7 Fighter 5 Greater Trip
8 Formless 1 Sensory ShiftB
9 Formless 2Fighter 6 Ascetic Strike, Monastic LegacyB
10 Formless 3Fighter 7 Strongclaw ShiftB
11 Formless 4Fighter 8 Improved Vital StrikeB, Vital Strike
12 Warder 1 Combat ReflexesB, Two-Weapon FightingB
13 Warder 2 Vicious Stomp
Opalescent White Pyramid Weapon Focus (temple sword)B

ABILITY SCORES (20-point buy)
Str 23/38 16 base, 2 race, 3 level, 2 belt / 5 strongclaw, 4 unbounded ability, 6 size
Dex 14/10 12 base, 2 belt / -4 size
Con 18 14 base, 2 race, 2 belt
Int 7 7 base
Wis 20 16 base, 4 headband
Cha 5 7 base, -2 race

CMB, ATTACK & DAMAGE BONUS
Attack Bonus +27 12 bab, 14 str, 1 weapon training, 1 Weapon Focus, 2 gloves of dueling, 2 AoMF, 1 haste, -2 TWF, -4 size
Damage Bonus +21 14 str, 1 weapon training, 2 gloves of dueling, 2 AoMF, 2 broken blade
CMB +47 / with Sword +54 / Trip +58 12 bab, 14 str, 4 maneuver mastery, 1 weapon training, 2 gloves of dueling, 1 haste, 8 size, 5 abomination shift / 1 Weapon Focus, 2 AoMF, 4 dueling / 4 trip feats

DAMAGE DIE
64d6 Damage Die 1d3 medium -> 1d6 2nd level monk (applies to temple sword via Ascetic Style) -> 1d8 7th level monk (Monastic Legacy, applies to temple sword via Ascetic Style) -> 2d6 12th level monk (Monk's Robe, applies to temple sword via Ascetic Style) -> 6d6 temple sword (three damage die size increases due to the 1d8 medium base damage of temple sword instead of the 1d3 of unarmed strike)* -> 8d6 Large size (actual base size of race) -> 12d6 Mighty Frame (Huge weapon race may wield while Large size) -> 16d6 Effortless Lace (Gargantuan temple sword, wielded without penalties while Large) -> 32d6 Gargantuan size (Magnitude Shift - two "magic" actual size increases) -> 64d6 strong jaw (two "effective" damage die size increases, applies to temple sword due to Ascetic Style and a monk's unarmed strike being considered a natural weapon)
192d6 Vital Strike Damage Die 64d6 as above, x3 Improved Vital Strike

*The relevant wording of Ascetic Style ("...effects that augment an unarmed strike" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style)) is exactly the same as the pre-errata Feral Combat Training. And IIRC, according to the FAQ for the old FCT feat (now gone as the errata made the FAQ entry redundant), the monk's damage die size increase is an "effect that augments an unarmed strike", and therefore the monk unarmed strike damage die increase is counted from the natural attack's (size-appropriate) base damage die, not the monk's normal 1d3 (Medium) unarmed strike base damage die. Unless my memory fails and until there is an official ruling which says otherwise, I cannot see why Ascetic Style should be treated any differently, since the monk's damage die size increase remains an "effect that augments an unarmed strike".

So Mr Svami's full attack in Broken Blade Stance while affected by haste would be: temple swords +27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22/+17 (64d6+21), one or more of the attacks replaced by trip attempts +56/+56/+56/+56/+56/+51/+46, each success triggering one or two AoOs up to a maximum of 6/round +29 (192d6+21); plus say four or five secondary natural attacks +22/+22/+22/+22/+22 (largely irrelevant damage but possibly even more trip attempts).

In the unlikely event my calculations and rules interpretations for Mr Svami actually happens to be correct, I'm probably not the first to notice this kind of combo, and would like to know your views on this. Especially on the fact that the far most important components enabling this insanity (Vital Strike, Seize the Opportunity and Magnitude Shift) are available at such early levels, with relatively minor drawbacks, and that this kind of damage output wouldn't be even remotely close to possible at this level using only Paizo options AFAIK.