THE GOOD NECROMANCER (Alignment Discussion)

[Zhentarim]

Terminus was once a humble Halfling serf working the lands for the local lord he would later come to serve. One day, one of his many siblings fell ill, and despite his petitions to the celestial deities, his baby sister passed away. Angry at the apparent apathy of the Empyreal Lords, Terminus petitioned fiendish forces to bring his sister back. One night, Terminus was jolted awake by a searing pain on his forehead. Running to a mirror, Terminus found a symbol of a fly, glowing red in the dark, was etched on his forehead. Running to his sister's grave, Terminus saw a pale hand clawing through the freshly turned dirt. Helping his sister out of her grave, Terminus was filled with glee until he tried to speak to her. Her eyes were lifeless and cold, and her flesh stank. She only grunted and moaned from that day forth, and it was soon obvious she was a zombie. Undeterred, Terminus continued to petition the dark lords for more power and he received it. Unfortunately, though, his growing dark powers did little to improve the condition of her flesh rotted away. He was soon shunned by the other members of the shire due to his obvious connection with necromantic forces. Devastated, he turned to the local lord for help. The lord said if he used his powers to help take down his enemies, he would be rewarded land and gold. Knowing this was his one shot to win back the trust and adoration of his family, Terminus agreed. He would earn a better life for his family even if he had to kill a million enemies of his lord to do so. With his abilities to raise the dead, command the undead, heal the undead, and siphon the life out of the living, he was certain he could lay waste to as many armies as it took to achieve his goals.

I am completely puzzled. I started out with LE in mind, but as I crafted him, he doesn't FEEL very evil. Do you guys have any input?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=725691

[Geddy2112]

Lets bypass the necromancy and go to "He would earn a better life for his family even if he had to kill a million enemies of his lord to do so.With his abilities to raise the dead, command the undead, heal the undead, and siphon the life out of the living, he was certain he could lay waste to as many armies as it took to achieve his goals."

Feels pretty freaking evil to me. Condemning his sister to undeath is icing on that evil cake.

I would go with neutral evil-he only cares about results, serving the lord is a means to the end, nothing more nothing less. In my experience, most necromancers are pragmatic about furthering their own ends, and don't really pay too much attention to the law/chaos aspect of the world.

[Segev]

Eh, assuming his lord is not evil, being willing to kill for his lord is no worse than being willing to join his lord's armies. I'd call him neutral.

[Florian]

Terminus was once a humble Halfling serf working the lands for the local lord he would later come to serve. One day, one of his many siblings fell ill, and despite his petitions to the celestial deities, his baby sister passed away. Angry at the apparent apathy of the Empyreal Lords, Terminus petitioned fiendish forces to bring his sister back. One night, Terminus was jolted awake by a searing pain on his forehead. Running to a mirror, Terminus found a symbol of a fly, glowing red in the dark, was etched on his forehead. Running to his sister's grave, Terminus saw a pale hand clawing through the freshly turned dirt. Helping his sister out of her grave, Terminus was filled with glee until he tried to speak to her. Her eyes were lifeless and cold, and her flesh stank. She only grunted and moaned from that day forth, and it was soon obvious she was a zombie. Undeterred, Terminus continued to petition the dark lords for more power and he received it. Unfortunately, though, his growing dark powers did little to improve the condition of her flesh rotted away. He was soon shunned by the other members of the shire due to his obvious connection with necromantic forces. Devastated, he turned to the local lord for help. The lord said if he used his powers to help take down his enemies, he would be rewarded land and gold. Knowing this was his one shot to win back the trust and adoration of his family, Terminus agreed. He would earn a better life for his family even if he had to kill a million enemies of his lord to do so. With his abilities to raise the dead, command the undead, heal the undead, and siphon the life out of the living, he was certain he could lay waste to as many armies as it took to achieve his goals.

I am completely puzzled. I started out with LE in mind, but as I crafted him, he doesn't FEEL very evil. Do you guys have any input?

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=725691

LE or NE, no way around that.

[Segev]

LE or NE, no way around that.

Based on what?

Again, contrast the high-level fighter willing to sign up to the duke's army and kill anybody his duke commands him to. Again, assuming the duke is not evil and does not command evil slaughter.

[Deadline]

Two words:

Good Intentions.

As paving material, they are excellent. Unfortunately, they only really work on a very specific road that leads no where good. :smalltongue:

From a story perspective, he sounds like a tragic character whose good intentions eventually corrupt him. Also, evil characters rarely consider themselves evil. They can often *believe* that what they are doing is good, or necessary for the greater good. Believing it doesn't make them right. :smallbiggrin:

From a rules perspective, casting [Evil] spells is an evil act. Repeated acts of evil eventually make you evil. Your intentions are irrelevant.

[ZxxZ]

Part of it has to be signing with a devil and manipulating the dead are almost universally considered evil culturally, and is seen as evil astrally by bring more negative energy into the material plane.

It's the same thing as a kind Devil, could be the nicest person in the world still gonna trip the Pally's detect evil

[Caedes]

Once DMed a player that played a NG Necromancer.

He primarily only raised Evil things and not people at all. If he did raise people, he got their permission before and after they died first...

He was a weird guy.

[Zhentarim]

Lets bypass the necromancy and go to "He would earn a better life for his family even if he had to kill a million enemies of his lord to do so.With his abilities to raise the dead, command the undead, heal the undead, and siphon the life out of the living, he was certain he could lay waste to as many armies as it took to achieve his goals."

Feels pretty freaking evil to me. Condemning his sister to undeath is icing on that evil cake.

I would go with neutral evil-he only cares about results, serving the lord is a means to the end, nothing more nothing less. In my experience, most necromancers are pragmatic about furthering their own ends, and don't really pay too much attention to the law/chaos aspect of the world.

His petitions were technically answered by dark forces, albeit in a twisted way. He does what he does only because he loves his family and wanted to bring his sister back. He wants to impress the ones he loves.

[Âmesang]

I once had an idea for a necromancer who went into the business to discover the true nature of life and death… but even he came out True Neutral.

[Zhentarim]

When I made this character and saw the world through his eyes, I felt like what he was doing was justified given how much he loved his sister. That said, I admit he may be a tragically misguided NE or TN.

[Segev]

When I made this character and saw the world through his eyes, I felt like what he was doing was justified given how much he loved his sister. That said, I admit he may be a tragically misguided NE or TN.

I'm still not seeing "evil." He doesn't go out of his way to hurt people, except as part of his duty as a (very powerful, high-ranking) soldier of his lord. If his lord orders him to do evil, and he complies, he might be evil. But otherwise, everything here points towards neutral, to me.

[Deadline]

I'm still not seeing "evil." He doesn't go out of his way to hurt people, except as part of his duty as a (very powerful, high-ranking) soldier of his lord. If his lord orders him to do evil, and he complies, he might be evil. But otherwise, everything here points towards neutral, to me.

Did you miss the part where he uses the rather notably evil powers of undeath to accomplish his goals? :smallwink:

D&D is funny that way. You can rain fireballs on your foes all day long and probably be ok alignment-wise. Raising the dead enemy soldiers of the army or sucking out the souls of your foes? Not so much.

[Geddy2112]

His petitions were technically answered by dark forces, albeit in a twisted way. He does what he does only because he loves his family and wanted to bring his sister back. He wants to impress the ones he loves.
Lots of evil people do evil things out of love and concern for their family and friends. It does not suddenly make necromancy or a willingness to kill others to get ahead a morally good action.


When I made this character and saw the world through his eyes, I felt like what he was doing was justified given how much he loved his sister. That said, I admit he may be a tragically misguided NE or TN.

Of course he thinks it is justified, and yes he is doing this out of love for his family. "evil" here is not some kind of mustache twirling, puppy kicking monster. This is very tragic evil, this is a road to hell with the best of intentions-altruistic love. And that is what makes him the best kind of evil. He might be TN, but enough using evil magic, animating the dead, etc is going to push him into NE.

Intentions are good, but his actions are evil.

[OldTrees1]

So he saw a dark god animated his loved one as a zombie, he then petitioned for more power. Later he became a soldier as a side job to gain some coinage.

Nothing of moral significance was stated.

However I question the intellect of any necromancer that would be fooled by the zombified loved one trick. Eventually the necromancer will learn either zombies are soulless (how I run them) and thus this was a waste of their time, or that zombies trap souls(not how I run them) in which case this treatment of their loved one would trouble them.

Then again, any necromancer worth their salt and motivated by a dead loved one would probably quickly learn to harness both vital energies.

[Segev]

Did you miss the part where he uses the rather notably evil powers of undeath to accomplish his goals? :smallwink:

D&D is funny that way. You can rain fireballs on your foes all day long and probably be ok alignment-wise. Raising the dead enemy soldiers of the army or sucking out the souls of your foes? Not so much.

Ah, okay. If we're going by the "he casts [evil]-descriptor spells" rule, then there isn't a question in the first place. I made the (perhaps poor) assumption that that was somehow not a factor in determining alignment for this question.

I mean, "Is this character, who takes all of his levels as Fighter and wields a great sword in which he's specialized and solves all of his problems with fighting...really a FIGHTER?" is not a question one usually associates with starting a whole thread. "Is this character, who performs actions which the rules say inherently make him have an Evil alignment, really an evil aligned character?" is a bit of a non-question.

[Jormengand]

Raising the dead enemy soldiers of the army

Animate With the Spirit wants a word with you. It's a sanctified [good] spell that does exactly that.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Firstly... Did his parents name their son Terminus? 'Cause that's like asking them to become a necromancer or pursue some other death related career. :smalltongue:

Secondly, you shouldn't start out by saying "meh, doesn't feel evil". In order for people to properly address your reservations on a specific alignment, list your reason for why you feel the way you feel about a certain character's alignment, (preferably quoting specific lines from the character's background or specific incidents he/she were involved to support your view point) so we can respond and/or expand upon those feelings.

Now, to answer the your concerns, (or perhaps reiterate what has already been said), let's examine what you have shown in in the OP.


Angry at the apparent apathy of the Empyreal Lords, Terminus petitioned fiendish forces to bring his sister back

Okay, so he's got some anger issues with the apparent good aligned deities, since for whatever reason they could not/did not help his sister. That rules out any good alignment as they're the generally the forgiving type, making some form of neutral seem appropriate. But then we get to "petitioning fiendish forces"... okay, looking a little dark here, but he's angry so it's understandable. I wouldn't throw him into the deep end yet.



Undeterred, Terminus continued to petition the dark lords for more power and he received it.


Wait, his sister turned into a zombie, supposedly by these dark forces and they gave him oracle powers. Cool. So he's not angry that, for all intents and purposes, his sister is still dead? I mean dead is one thing, but dead and "close to being alive" is more of an insult than a gift. But he's not angry, so I would place this guy's mental state somewhere near sociopath, which is a pretty evil state of mind.


Unfortunately, though, his growing dark powers did little to improve the condition of her flesh rotted away.

Is Gentle Repose[ (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/gentleRepose.html)/I] not on the Oracle list? "Dark Powers" does not mean "only having spell with the [Evil] descriptor". Besides, doesn't negative energy heal undead? Although I suppose you could argue that it does not restore flesh. Speaking of, he Worships Urgathoa, and is clearly an oracle of Urgathoa. Someone who worships an evil deity is someone who believes in their teachings to some extent. And while this (by RAW) does not make him evil, it certainly doesn't help his case for being a "moderate" necromancer. Pharasma fits that profile much better.


Devastated, he turned to the local lord for help. The lord said if he used his powers to help take down his enemies, he would be rewarded land and gold. Knowing this was his one shot to win back the trust and adoration of his family, Terminus agreed.

So his focus has now shifted from "Help my sister" to "I wanna be loved again". That's pretty selfish, a common characteristic of evil. Also, does he actually [I]know it's his only shot? Did his family say, "I hate you. But I'd love you again if you served the local lord and got lots of gold and land for us....." But if that is the case, then the whole family seems pretty self-centered to be honest which would probably rub-off on the young Terminus. He probably only thinks it's the only way to regain the adoration of people.

As an aside, the lord does't say, "use these power to help defend my realm", he says, "Take down my enemies". This lord's "enemies" could be anyone, perhaps it's the vicious bandits plaguing the roads, or maybe it's that pesky paladin down the way. Or that tax-collector who ran off with some of the tax revenue... Aggressive attitude does not speak well for the alignment of this regent. And our dear Terminus is agreeing to kill, sorry, "take down", this guy's enemies, no questions asked, using necromantic power, all for gold, land and for notion that he'll be respected for it. Yeesh! One more point for evil.

You could argue that most adventurers do that. But most adventurers don't have sworn allegiance to a lord. If they did, then their alignment usually matches up in some way. I.e a paladin wouldn't serve an LE liege, nor could a LN knight stay LN for long if he's constantly doing the evil bidding of his LE king (if said king was openly LE, that is).


Terminus agreed. He would earn a better life for his family even if he had to kill a million enemies of his lord to do so. With his abilities to raise the dead, command the undead, heal the undead, and siphon the life out of the living, he was certain he could lay waste to as many armies as it took to achieve his goals.

Notice the jump to a violent solution? This guy's thought process is "I would murder millions if it would improve the status of my family" That, is EVIL. There is no line this guy would not cross if it meant elevating his family in some way. (notice he no longer cares about his sister, unless she's somehow included in this "family". I assume she's separate 'cause y'know. zombie). He goes way beyond the normal "kill to protect" and straight to "kill for profit". Also notice the bold section. While most of my discussion points have not focused on the perspective of RAW, I should take note that frequent use of spell/abilities/what-have-you with the [Evil] descriptor result in an evil alignment.

To sum up, I would not place Terminus outside the realm of evil. As for the Law-chaos axis, well, the only support I can draw is that he is willing to serve, but not out of a sense of duty. This makes me place him as neutral with respect to Law-Chaos. So I would say NE is this guy's alignment. Which actually lines up nicely with the alignment of his chosen deity.

Now I will end my post by saying that all of my above arguments are based on what you provided on the character sheet and the backstory. You may contend with those if you wish, and that would be fine. If you want this character to be neutral, then I would suggest changing his background. I would also like to say, that being evil doesn't make this a bad character. Evil characters can be interesting to play. If you still feel like he should be a different (less evil) alignment, make the case by citing the character backstories. Or re-write it so he seems less like a sociopath and more like a responsible person who occasionally has to get his hands dirty.

[Deadline]

Animate With the Spirit wants a word with you. It's a sanctified [good] spell that does exactly that.

Yes, yes, if I don't qualify exactly what I'm saying at all times, anyone on the internet should feel free to pounce on tiny details and completely ignore any context present in the thread. :smalltongue:


In case it wasn't clear from the title of the thread, OP, and my posts, I'm using "raising" to refer to creating undead (because the OP mentioned being a Necromancer, and trucking with dark powers in exchange for what very much sound like traditional spells in the Necromancy school).
Animate with the Spirit is not a Necromancy spell. (for anyone having a hard time finding it, like me, the spell is in Champions of Valor, is a Conjuration(Summoning) spell, and it gets a good-aligned Outsider to possess a corpse)
If it were me in your shoes, I'd have gone with "Well if he's casting Raise Dead, I fail to see what's so evil about that." *eyebrow waggle* :smallwink:



@Segev, I guess I was under the impression that the OP was looking to classify this character in an alignment, rather than have a subjective discussion on the merits of the alignment system. If I've misunderstood, my bad.

[Psyren]

Before we get into yet another tiresome "necromancers can be good" debate - OP, what setting are you playing in? You mention "Empyreal Lords", which suggests Golarion, but that may not necessarily be the case.

In Golarion, habitual necromancy makes you neutral at best. If it's some other setting, then it depends on how necromancy is treated in that setting.

[elonin]

RAW using necromancy is an evil act. That doesn't personally sway me, though. My outlook does change when he states (as far as we know truthfully) that he'd be willing to mow down all the people his lord wants to for personal gain. For those arguing that the fighter who doesn't use spells it wouldn't force an alignment shift; i have to say that may be so but the intention should matter. It's one thing to defend yourself and another thing for the ends to justify the means. Its also quite another to just kill a bunch of people cause your employer said to. To me that last is horrendous regardless of the method.

[Machinekng]

In most settings, communing with dark powers and practicing necromancy is an evil act on a metaphysical level, since it shift the balance of energy/power/influence towards evil. Simply seeking employment as a mercenary/vassal is a neutral act, as long he acts within the constraints of just war. If he aids his lord in performing evil acts, by violating just war (i.e. killing noncombatants, unprovoked aggression, etc...), then he'd be committing evil.

[Zhentarim]

Before we get into yet another tiresome "necromancers can be good" debate - OP, what setting are you playing in? You mention "Empyreal Lords", which suggests Golarion, but that may not necessarily be the case.

In Golarion, habitual necromancy makes you neutral at best. If it's some other setting, then it depends on how necromancy is treated in that setting.

I am on Golorion

[Psyren]

I am on Golorion

Then - without houserules - necromancy is an evil act and this guy will either be some flavor of Neutral or some flavor of Evil.

[Coidzor]

Before we get into yet another tiresome "necromancers can be good" debate - OP, what setting are you playing in? You mention "Empyreal Lords", which suggests Golarion, but that may not necessarily be the case.

In Golarion, habitual necromancy makes you neutral at best. If it's some other setting, then it depends on how necromancy is treated in that setting.

Hey now, get it right, the debates are really about developer creativity, bias, and ability to create internally consistent rules for necromancy.

And mostly that last one.

[Zhentarim]

Firstly... Did his parents name their son Terminus? 'Cause that's like asking them to become a necromancer or pursue some other death related career. :smalltongue:

Secondly, you shouldn't start out by saying "meh, doesn't feel evil". In order for people to properly address your reservations on a specific alignment, list your reason for why you feel the way you feel about a certain character's alignment, (preferably quoting specific lines from the character's background or specific incidents he/she were involved to support your view point) so we can respond and/or expand upon those feelings.

Now, to answer the your concerns, (or perhaps reiterate what has already been said), let's examine what you have shown in in the OP.



Okay, so he's got some anger issues with the apparent good aligned deities, since for whatever reason they could not/did not help his sister. That rules out any good alignment as they're the generally the forgiving type, making some form of neutral seem appropriate. But then we get to "petitioning fiendish forces"... okay, looking a little dark here, but he's angry so it's understandable. I wouldn't throw him into the deep end yet.



Wait, his sister turned into a zombie, supposedly by these dark forces and they gave him oracle powers. Cool. So he's not angry that, for all intents and purposes, his sister is still dead? I mean dead is one thing, but dead and "close to being alive" is more of an insult than a gift. But he's not angry, so I would place this guy's mental state somewhere near sociopath, which is a pretty evil state of mind.



Is Gentle Repose[ (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/gentleRepose.html)/I] not on the Oracle list? "Dark Powers" does not mean "only having spell with the [Evil] descriptor". Besides, doesn't negative energy heal undead? Although I suppose you could argue that it does not restore flesh. Speaking of, he Worships Urgathoa, and is clearly an oracle of Urgathoa. Someone who worships an evil deity is someone who believes in their teachings to some extent. And while this (by RAW) does not make him evil, it certainly doesn't help his case for being a "moderate" necromancer. Pharasma fits that profile much better.



So his focus has now shifted from "Help my sister" to "I wanna be loved again". That's pretty selfish, a common characteristic of evil. Also, does he actually [I]know it's his only shot? Did his family say, "I hate you. But I'd love you again if you served the local lord and got lots of gold and land for us....." But if that is the case, then the whole family seems pretty self-centered to be honest which would probably rub-off on the young Terminus. He probably only thinks it's the only way to regain the adoration of people.

As an aside, the lord does't say, "use these power to help defend my realm", he says, "Take down my enemies". This lord's "enemies" could be anyone, perhaps it's the vicious bandits plaguing the roads, or maybe it's that pesky paladin down the way. Or that tax-collector who ran off with some of the tax revenue... Aggressive attitude does not speak well for the alignment of this regent. And our dear Terminus is agreeing to kill, sorry, "take down", this guy's enemies, no questions asked, using necromantic power, all for gold, land and for notion that he'll be respected for it. Yeesh! One more point for evil.

You could argue that most adventurers do that. But most adventurers don't have sworn allegiance to a lord. If they did, then their alignment usually matches up in some way. I.e a paladin wouldn't serve an LE liege, nor could a LN knight stay LN for long if he's constantly doing the evil bidding of his LE king (if said king was openly LE, that is).



Notice the jump to a violent solution? This guy's thought process is "I would murder millions if it would improve the status of my family" That, is EVIL. There is no line this guy would not cross if it meant elevating his family in some way. (notice he no longer cares about his sister, unless she's somehow included in this "family". I assume she's separate 'cause y'know. zombie). He goes way beyond the normal "kill to protect" and straight to "kill for profit". Also notice the bold section. While most of my discussion points have not focused on the perspective of RAW, I should take note that frequent use of spell/abilities/what-have-you with the [Evil] descriptor result in an evil alignment.

To sum up, I would not place Terminus outside the realm of evil. As for the Law-chaos axis, well, the only support I can draw is that he is willing to serve, but not out of a sense of duty. This makes me place him as neutral with respect to Law-Chaos. So I would say NE is this guy's alignment. Which actually lines up nicely with the alignment of his chosen deity.

Now I will end my post by saying that all of my above arguments are based on what you provided on the character sheet and the backstory. You may contend with those if you wish, and that would be fine. If you want this character to be neutral, then I would suggest changing his background. I would also like to say, that being evil doesn't make this a bad character. Evil characters can be interesting to play. If you still feel like he should be a different (less evil) alignment, make the case by citing the character backstories. Or re-write it so he seems less like a sociopath and more like a responsible person who occasionally has to get his hands dirty.



Terminus used Restore Corpse and Gentle Repose, but it didn't give back the sister he knew and loved. She still stank and moaned and was not quite there. Yes, he was angry his sister wasn't quite returned, but he hoped if he kept serving his bones mystery, he would eventually gain enough power he could bring his sister all the way back. He had heard rumors of True Resurrection, after all. As far as alignment goes, he was originally intended to be evil, but as I fleshed him out, I started feeling sorry for him because I saw myself in him, and I started to feel reluctant to call him evil because, while I lack any form of special abilities, what he does feels like an allegory for how I harm others to advance myself and how only the pursuit of knowledge and pleasure and acceptance (in that order) motivate me anymore. Even the necromancy portion is an allegory for my own preoccupation with death and mortality. I see nothing as permanent, and I can see the Earth itself, and even the stars in the sky rotting away into nothing. I align myself with others temporarily because of convenience and because I am not a very powerful person and because it is easier to go with the grain of society, at least outwardly. All the while though, I chafe at the thought of being under somebody else's thumb when my time is so limited, so I constantly plot ways I can safely do things on my own terms once more. I feel more at home writing my books, reading classic literature, and exploring my own mind rather than interacting with others for this reason. I guess that's why I don't want Terminus to be evil. We are too much alike.

Edit: I was in a bad mood when I wrote this and I would like to add these are more sins of omission than truly malicious acts, and that I may delete this post because I let my real-life guilt and despair bleed too much into it. I don't WANT to hurt anybody, but I feel like I have to let some hideous injustices pass because I am too weak to deal with them. Perhaps I should go into education rather than my current field. For my own sake, I want more happy endings.

[OldTrees1]

[SPOILER=TheFamiliarRaven]As far as alignment goes, he was originally intended to be evil, but as I fleshed him out, I started feeling sorry for him because I saw myself in him, and I started to feel reluctant to call him evil because -snip- I guess that's why I don't want Terminus to be evil. We are too much alike.
1) You still have not said anything of moral significance. So Terminus's alignment is still up in the air.
2) So Terminus is operating under the "she is partially returned" theory. Double check OOC to see if her soul is or is not trapped inside the zombie. This will help you be ready for when Terminus learns this IC. However it does sound like Terminus will turn out to be a smart necromancer (one that uses both vital energies).


3) The power of empathy is strong. I have felt similar towards the human brain eating Illithids due to a similar commonality. From my own experience I have this wisdom to share: You care too much about this topic (the commonality) to listen to either the internet or your own preferences. You should examine the character of the commonality on your own and without shielding yourself with what you want the answer to be. In my own case I concluded the commonality was not an immoral trait. I don't know what you will learn but I cannot recommend trusting the internet.


So here is what I suggest: Play Terminus without knowing their objective alignment(ask the DM to keep track of that without ever telling you), instead keep track of how Terminus views himself. His moral convictions as well as his doubts about his moral character. This might be not only a fun roleplay tool, but a way to explore yourself.

[Zhentarim]

1) You still have not said anything of moral significance. So Terminus's alignment is still up in the air.
2) So Terminus is operating under the "she is partially returned" theory. Double check OOC to see if her soul is or is not trapped inside the zombie. This will help you be ready for when Terminus learns this IC. However it does sound like Terminus will turn out to be a smart necromancer (one that uses both vital energies).


3) The power of empathy is strong. I have felt similar towards the human brain eating Illithids due to a similar commonality. From my own experience I have this wisdom to share: You care too much about this topic (the commonality) to listen to either the internet or your own preferences. You should examine the character of the commonality on your own and without shielding yourself with what you want the answer to be. In my own case I concluded the commonality was not an immoral trait. I don't know what you will learn but I cannot recommend trusting the internet.


So here is what I suggest: Play Terminus without knowing their objective alignment(ask the DM to keep track of that without ever telling you), instead keep track of how Terminus views himself. His moral convictions as well as his doubts about his moral character. This might be not only a fun roleplay tool, but a way to explore yourself.

That is what I'll do.

[Segev]

If I ever play Segev in a game, that's how I plan to run it.

(I personally think he's NE, but I don't care enough to argue, and suspect that his behavior could get him pegged anywhere south of Good, depending on who's doing the judging.)

[Florian]

@Segev:

Remember that there´s still a vast divide between a "Frontier Mentality" and "The Ends justify the Means".
Most setting use the "Points of Light vs. Hostile, untamed wilds" setup to keep said "Frontier Mentality" alive and happening, so that violence/war is the natural state of things and conducting that can actually be considered to be a "good" thing. Else, the game would drift off to be too much a moral quagmire to still be enjoyable.

[Andreaz]

He does what he does only because he loves his family and wanted to bring his sister back. He wants to impress the ones he loves.Yep. Evil people can love too.


If you want to talk about how a good necromancer would work...it's not very different, actually. Necromancy in itself is only as evil as the scenario wants to arbitrarily dictate raising undead is evil.
Imagine a benevolent doctor, or a industrious researcher. One whose interests and deeds amount to "i'm fascinated by this, and want to use this to make people's lives better". Oh, and his research and medicine stem from necromantic studies.
That's a good guy right there. My possible objections to some of his treatments are more on the "it's icky" scales.

[Florian]

Yep. Evil people can love too.


If you want to talk about how a good necromancer would work...it's not very different, actually. Necromancy in itself is only as evil as the scenario wants to arbitrarily dictate raising undead is evil.
Imagine a benevolent doctor, or a industrious researcher. One whose interests and deeds amount to "i'm fascinated by this, and want to use this to make people's lives better". Oh, and his research and medicine stem from necromantic studies.
That's a good guy right there. My possible objections to some of his treatments are more on the "it's icky" scales.

Sorry, but no.

"Evil people can love, too" should be a given. Loving someone and caring about them is part of our basic nature unless we really talk about really twisted freaks.

What we do talk about here is a world with advanced knowledge, lacking the uncertainty we have IRL, bolstering faith with actual facts. So yes, existence of souls proven, afterlife being a real thing, reward-cycles for souls can be watched, and so on, if you have the knowledge and power.

Anyone using hard-core Necromancy in this setup is either blind to the moral consequences or power hungry enough to stop over the line there.

[Andreaz]

Sorry, but no.

"Evil people can love, too" should be a given. Loving someone and caring about them is part of our basic nature unless we really talk about really twisted freaks.

What we do talk about here is a world with advanced knowledge, lacking the uncertainty we have IRL, bolstering faith with actual facts. So yes, existence of souls proven, afterlife being a real thing, reward-cycles for souls can be watched, and so on, if you have the knowledge and power.

Anyone using hard-core Necromancy in this setup is either blind to the moral consequences or power hungry enough to stop over the line there.

You ignored one of my lines: "Necromancy in itself is only as evil as the scenario wants to arbitrarily dictate raising undead is evil."
In a setting like the elder scrolls where necromancy is "shoving bits of someoen's soul in a corpse" yeah, necromancy is by default evil.
In a setting where raising a zombie doesn't really use anything other than a corpse and icky energies, what do we care about the souls? They're not even there.

[Florian]

You ignored one of my lines: "Necromancy in itself is only as evil as the scenario wants to arbitrarily dictate raising undead is evil."
In a setting like the elder scrolls where necromancy is "shoving bits of someoen's soul in a corpse" yeah, necromancy is by default evil.
In a setting where raising a zombie doesn't really use anything other than a corpse and icky energies, what do we care about the souls? They're not even there.

"Arbitrary" being the watchword there.

We do talk about a specific setting here, Golarion, therefore we should take the specific setting rules into account. Golarion works based on "Something powers something". A soul powers a living creature. A captured soul powers an undead creature, and so on.