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Sillybird99
2016-02-24, 03:57 PM
I am starting a first level bard in a lower PL campaign that is low magic. I am going for a melee support role in addition to casting and bardic music. I was considering straight bard so as not to be to cheesy or OP, but I am considering one other build that dips into Crusader from tome of battle.

Anyway I am a human bard with abilities:

STR 15
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 11
CHA 16

My first level feats are pretty much set in stone as being Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. I plan on wielding a whip and a buckler.

I'm not really sure where to go with feats from here. I would like to optimize my ability to support the party, and if I can do that without dipping two levels in Crusader ( for more melee abilities and Song of the White Raven) I would like to hear how.

My DM is strictly forbidding anything he considers to be cheese or OP and trying to keep to Core + the completes (although I am hoping he might consider allowing ToB) so the dragonfire inspiration build is out. I don't really want snowflake war dance because I couldn't use a buckler and trips are touch attacks so the extra attack bonus isn't as necessary.

I am going to try to see if I can getaway with song of the heart, but it is eberron. Doesn't seem like he has that material and I can't find a good source for it outside of forums.

So does anyone have any additional advice on making this a balanced and effective melee support whip bard?

ComaVision
2016-02-24, 04:00 PM
The big problem here is how are you going to be effective at tripping anything without size or strength bonuses. I think you need to reconsider CE + IT.

Troacctid
2016-02-24, 04:34 PM
Currently you have only +6 to trip, which is pretty weak. If my math is right, that would be roughly a 40% chance of success against an enemy with 10 touch AC and +0 on the opposed check? That's not a very impressive success rate for what ought to be the optimal scenario. Using a whip is also somewhat problematic in that you won't get an attack of opportunity when they stand up, which is supposed to be one of the main benefits of tripping. And since you don't threaten adjacent squares, you can't flank either, which probably makes you less effective at supporting?

Sillybird99
2016-02-24, 05:26 PM
Hmm, so if tripping won't be effective what feats should I look at instead? There just don't seem to be too many good feats for bard that I can use.

I was incorporating the whip into the back story (former slave that inspired a mini revolution to escape with a few others) , but I suppose a spiked chain could synergize with that story too since both whips and chains are implements of bondage. This would be a more effective route to go but also delay things a bit with the extra required feat.
My plan was to acquire a wand of enlarge person ASAP to be more effective.

Idk it seems like going straight caster might be the best option, it's just the feats that have me stumbling.

ComaVision
2016-02-24, 05:44 PM
You could buff up your Inspire Courage without grabbing DFI. A flat +6 or more to attack and damage is still good, especially if you're power attacking with a spiked chain (or other 2H). The bard has good spells for buffing AC, like Alter Self.

Gabrosin
2016-02-24, 05:54 PM
Which feats you select depend a lot on what books are available, but I am a big fan of Nymph's Kiss from the Book of Exalted Deeds. You get a bonus skill point at every level, +1 to saves vs. spells, and +2 to your Charisma-based checks, which is a lot of things when you're a bard.

An even better option, though, is to go the path you described and select Crusader 1 for your first level. You gain a lot of survivability for your bard by starting out Crusader, with five points of delayed damage a round. Combine with the feat Stone Power and you can gain temporary HP to offset that damage, at the cost of a penalty for your attack rolls... much better than dying! Tack on a solid set of early maneuvers, including Crusader's Strike for healing, and the Martial Spirit stance for further healing, neither of which costs you an action. Alternately you can take a White Raven stance, probably Leading the Charge, which will then qualify you for Song of the White Raven, speeding up your inspire courage uses.

Best of all, mixing Crusader and Bard qualifies you at level 7 for the Jade Phoenix Mage prestige class, which is fantastic. You get to sacrifice spells for bonuses to attack and damage, and you get a stance which boosts your AC, CL, and grants solid damage reduction. You get to continue progressing both maneuvers and spells, and it combines well with the Sublime Chord prestige class at higher levels.

Investing feats in tripping isn't really a great path for a bard to take. You're worth much more to your party from maximizing the effect of your inspire courage and then smacking people in the face.

Troacctid
2016-02-24, 06:13 PM
I mean, tripping is fine, but it really really wants you to be pumping Strength as your primary stat, and it works a lot better with a guisarme than a whip. If you did use a whip, it would probably either be as a backup weapon or MAYBE as an offhand weapon. The fact that it doesn't threaten attacks of opportunity really hurts. I don't recommend a spiked chain—it's not worth the extra feat compared to a guisarme, assuming you're already proficient with martial weapons—but a kusari-gama is viable if you need a one-handed weapon, and the ritiik (from Frostburn) has its advantages as well. Note that Master's Touch is a 1st level Bard spell that makes you proficient with any weapon you touch—that could definitely expand your range of options.

Also, I'll second Nymph's Kiss if it's allowed. Very good feat for Bards.