Spellcaster Paladin?

[Jormengand]

So, Battle Blessing got me thinking: wouldn't it be cool if there were some good paladin spells so that free quickening was actually good?

Well, there are some ways to get extra spells, such as the aptly named Extra Spell (which I maintain allows you to get spells not on your list) or Initiate of Amanteur and Initiate of Baravar Cloakshadow (because of IoA's prerequisites being weird, you can actually take both) which give you useful spells like haste, invisibility and dimension door. Some sanctified spells (ways to be immune to the ability damage?) could also be useful, such as luminous armour, celestial aspect (it's like fly, only faster and when you don't need to fly you can swap it out for something else as a free action!) and animate with the spirit (So, I can have this dead body thing following me about, only it has all the stuff it did when it was alive). Even on the paladin spell list, you have some interesting spells like Mark of Doom, which is nasty as a swift action, basically condemning a creature to stop fighting or slowly die. Even bog-standard prayer is a nice buff/debuff.

Your low spells/day can be countered by 3 levels in wonderworker, which give you 7 more spells/day, and if you cheat and find a way to cast 5th-level spells you can take Extra Slot for your fourth level and use Animate With the Spirit to go around with your army of totally-not-undead-you-guys. And then give them all flying, because why not? Also, Hand of Torm is just a generally fun spell to stun anyone who tries to kill you. Also, you have revenance, so if you want to DMM: Persist that so you can restore your ally to life repeatedly until you can get a real cleric on board, that's a possibility.

Practiced spellcaster is a must, of course. Does anyone else have any ideas for this remarkably silly character concept?

[ComaVision]

Sword of the Arcane Order?

Prestige Paladin is easy mode for this.

[Jormengand]

Sword of the Arcane Order?

Prestige Paladin is easy mode for this.

Unfortunately, SAO gives wizard spells, prestige paladin gives probably-cleric spells, and battle blessing only works on paladin spells.

[torrasque666]

The rules regarding Initiate feats say you can only take one though. None of the relevant feats change this rule.

[Jormengand]

The rules regarding Initiate feats say you can only take one though. None of the relevant feats change this rule.

Do they? Aww. I admit to not actually reading the rules on them properly and just assuming they were normal feats. Ugh, I suppose I prefer quickened haste over quickened invisibility and d-door.

[Âmesang]

I'm always keen on giving paladins access to higher level spells, even the potential to cast epic spells in time. Perhaps some sort of bard/paladin/sublime chord via Devoted Performer? Eh, first thing that came to mind.

I blame "Artix VS The Undead" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_z3N3liEA). :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Mystic Fire Knight gives you an extra spell slot of each level, if you don't mind worshipping Mystra.

[Bohandas]

I'm always keen on giving paladins access to higher level spells, even the potential to cast epic spells in time. Perhaps some sort of bard/paladin/sublime chord via Devoted Performer? Eh, first thing that came to mind.


Technically a paladin does have the potential to cast epic spells, they just need to take improved spell capacity 5 times first (Should be doable by level 30)

[Âmesang]

It would also help taking Skill Knowledge (Spellcraft) or some other Spellcraft-granting feat at 1st-level.

…which reminds me; if such a paladin prestiged into the epic class, divine emissary, and took Improved Spell Capacity (5-9), would such a paladin be able to utilize the higher-level spell slots to prepare the spells from its granted domain class feature, even if only one of each? Figured altogether it makes for an interesting combination: paladin with beefed-up abilities, domain power/spells, and epic spells.

Not necessarily an optimized one, but interesting. :smalltongue:

[tiercel]

I sort of basically figured that a "spellcasting paladin" would mostly be relying on scrolls and/or wands (especially of SpC paladin spells), as well as Pearls of Power to allow (limited) spamming of 1-2 favorite spells directly from spell slots (I.e. ones benefiting from Battle Blessing).

The problems I see with Wonderworker are several:

1) Not all groups are at home to BoED
2) If BoED is in play, the Exalted Code of Conduct makes potential garden-variety Paladin Code of Conduct issues pale by comparison
3) Paladin spell progression won't allow Wonderworker entry until 12th level; if you actually want to add to fourth-level slots (and not delay getting access to fourth level spells), you're not entering until 15th level, assuming you're packing more-than-usual Wisdom for a paladin. (Also, no "may freely multiclass out/into paladin" clause.) That's a long time to wait, and not that many more spell slots than the highest paladin levels anyway.

[darksolitaire]

Unfortunately, SAO gives wizard spells, prestige paladin gives probably-cleric spells, and battle blessing only works on paladin spells.

If that's the way you want to interpret it, fine. Alternatively, a Paladin spell is spell cast from Paladin's daily allotment of spells.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can get the benefit of Battle Blessing with spells added to your paladin list, like taking 1 level of Sandshaper. There are a few classes that add spells to whatever class list you want, though you'll usually have to compromise your build to qualify.

That still doesn't get around the main problem though: you don't get enough spell slots, and what casting you get comes too late to really make it as a primary spellcaster.
For rangers there's Mystic Ranger, but afaik paladins don't have an equivalent option.


If that's the way you want to interpret it, fine. Alternatively, a Paladin spell is spell cast from Paladin's daily allotment of spells.
There's little room for interpretation if the feat itself says "you cast wizard spells".

[Waazraath]

You get quite far by combining mystic fireknight acf, the feats practiced caster, battle blessing, sword of the arcane order, and the Illumian race, for CL 18. Get extra spells with pearls of power, get some metamagic rods (extend), and try if you can get the artifact shield of prator; not too strong, except for doubling your nr. of spells. Bonus: self spells are also cast on the mount, so get double the effect of strong self buffs (like greater luminous armor). I made a build focussing on this aspect long time ago:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=nq60nrpfj02kpicbg662272i06&topic=8971.msg202398#msg202398 (see 'dragon rider' build).

[darksolitaire]

There's little room for interpretation if the feat itself says "you cast wizard spells".

It says you can prepare wizard spells. But then, what is a wizard spell? Feat doesn't even say if you cast them as arcane of divine.

[Jormengand]

It says you can prepare wizard spells. But then, what is a wizard spell?

Something that isn't a paladin spell. It's quite obvious that no DM will let a feat that specifically works on paladin spells affect your wizard spells, however badly worded you think it is.

[ComaVision]

Something that isn't a paladin spell. It's quite obvious that no DM will let a feat that specifically works on paladin spells affect your wizard spells, however badly worded you think it is.

If it's cast from a Paladin spell slot, it must be a Paladin spell.

I don't allow it in my games (on potential power alone) but I don't think it's as clear-cut as you make it out to be.

[darksolitaire]

Something that isn't a paladin spell. It's quite obvious that no DM will let a feat that specifically works on paladin spells affect your wizard spells, however badly worded you think it is.

Like I said, Paladin spell could be a spell cast from Paladin's daily allotment. Also, I am no DM. And you're saying that any confusion about the feat is purely my thinking?

[LTwerewolf]

I am also apparently no DM, because I allow it and have never once run into a problem with it. That being said, I don't let it work with prestige paladin because those spells are still cleric spell slots, and paladin just advances the cleric casting (not paladin casting) you already had. Other than that, letting paladins have nice things isn't a bad thing when so much more is expected of them and they get so little in return.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You get quite far by combining mystic fireknight acf, the feats practiced caster, battle blessing, sword of the arcane order, and the Illumian race, for CL 18. Get extra spells with pearls of power, get some metamagic rods (extend), and try if you can get the artifact shield of prator; not too strong, except for doubling your nr. of spells. Bonus: self spells are also cast on the mount, so get double the effect of strong self buffs (like greater luminous armor). I made a build focussing on this aspect long time ago
That still doesn't do anything about the problem that your progression is the worst in the game. You get new spell levels at 4, 8, 11 and 14, with half the slots a primary caster would get and on a casting stat that does nothing for your other class features, leading to MAD (which paladins already have problems with).

Paladin casting is good for buffs and some utility. SotAO makes it significantly better at that, but it's not enough to make spellcasting your primary contribution to a party.
Your build does boost casting by a lot, but what makes it viable is that you don't actually give up much of what a paladin is naturally good at to do it.
It's almost all improvement, but it's not enough to be a primary spellcaster - you'll still hit people in the face with a weapon, you just get some options in addition to that.


If it's cast from a Paladin spell slot, it must be a Paladin spell.

I don't allow it in my games (on potential power alone) but I don't think it's as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
There isn't much power in getting 4th level spells by level 14 with a reduced CL and bad DCs because of MAD.
What SotAO gives a paladin is mostly utility and a few minor buffs that other casters already have access to 6-7 levels earlier.

What it does is give a paladin options. It makes them more fun to play and more able to contribute in a variety of situations without really increasing their general power level, and that's generally considered a good thing, especially if you consider that unoptimized paladins are pretty far at the bottom of the power balance.


Like I said, Paladin spell could be a spell cast from Paladin's daily allotment. Also, I am no DM. And you're saying that any confusion about the feat is purely my thinking?

What is confusing about the sentence "you can cast wizard spells"? That's right in the feat text of SotAO.
A wizard spell is not a paladin spell, no matter what other issues the wording may have.

[darksolitaire]

What is confusing about the sentence "you can cast wizard spells"? That's right in the feat text of SotAO.
A wizard spell is not a paladin spell, no matter what other issues the wording may have.

Like I wrote, the feat tells that you can prepare wizard spells. When you put something on quotation marks, please make sure to get the quote right. There's room for interpretation since it doesn't further clarify how those spell act afterwards.

[Waazraath]

That still doesn't do anything about the problem that your progression is the worst in the game. You get new spell levels at 4, 8, 11 and 14, with half the slots a primary caster would get and on a casting stat that does nothing for your other class features, leading to MAD (which paladins already have problems with).

Paladin casting is good for buffs and some utility. SotAO makes it significantly better at that, but it's not enough to make spellcasting your primary contribution to a party.
Your build does boost casting by a lot, but what makes it viable is that you don't actually give up much of what a paladin is naturally good at to do it.
It's almost all improvement, but it's not enough to be a primary spellcaster - you'll still hit people in the face with a weapon, you just get some options in addition to that.


Correct, all of this; I read the thread as 'how to optimize the spellcasting abilities of the paladin', not as 'how to make the paladin a primary spellcaster. The latter isn't really possible, certainly not 1-20 since you won't have any spells up to lvl 5.

[Sian]

would gaining your casting from Pious Templar help? :p

[AnonymousPepper]

Closest thing I ever saw to a paladin that wasn't dependent on basically autoattacking things was the A-Game Paladin (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471332-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin-(Tempest_Stormwind)), which is basically bardic music and Sword of the Arcane Order stuck onto a specific Paladin chassis.

I don't think you can go full spellcaster, but the A-Game Pally always looked pretty exciting to me.

[Optimator]

My favorite Paladin homebrew gave the paladin better spells and a few more per day (and earlier progression). OneWinged4ngel's Rebalanced Paladin. It was pretty sweet and not overpowered IMO.

I would find a Mystic Ranger-style casting progression quite nifty for a Paladin. getting some thematic Cleric 6th level spells as 5ths and the like. I would allow something like that in my games.

[Bohandas]

The Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana theoretically maxes out (disregarding epic levels) at level 7 cleric spells for spellcasting.

EDIT:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can you use Sword of the Arcane Order + Ring of Wizardry to get double spell slots, then prepare all paladin spells?

[LTwerewolf]

The Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana theoretically maxes out (disregarding epic levels) at level 7 cleric spells for spellcasting.


Generally people don't take every level of prestige paladin, because it's terrible compared to other options.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can you use Sword of the Arcane Order + Ring of Wizardry to get double spell slots, then prepare all paladin spells?

Nope. Ring of Wizardry doubles the arcane spell slots of an arcane spellcaster. A paladin neither has or is either of these, even with SotAO.

[Thurbane]

Nope. Ring of Wizardry doubles the arcane spell slots of an arcane spellcaster. A paladin neither has or is either of these, even with SotAO.

How about if you combine with Southern Magician or Alternative Source Spell?

Also, on the topic of these, I recently discovered the Ring of Theurgy (CArc) - although I'm not sure if either of these feats lets you count as a prepared arcane caster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How about if you combine with Southern Magician or Alternative Source Spell?

Also, on the topic of these, I recently discovered the Ring of Theurgy (CArc) - although I'm not sure if either of these feats lets you count as a prepared arcane caster.

Southern magician won't help since it doesn't change from divine to arcane (or vice-versa) until the moment of casting and alterative source spell fails because A) You'll have to either take southern magician or multiclass to qualify and B) even then your paladin spell slots are still divine spell slots even if you prepare the spells in them as arcane.

The ring of theurgy doesn't appear to change the type (arcane or divine) of spell the wearer casts, regardless of who put the spell in the ring. A paladin with alternative source spell -might- qualify as a prepared arcane caster though, so that may be a valid way of expanding his available list of spells known.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nope. Ring of Wizardry doubles the arcane spell slots of an arcane spellcaster. A paladin neither has or is either of these, even with SotAO.
That's what I expected.

It's possible that a few levels in Geomancer can fix that (may require houseruling on what a 'spellcasting parameter' is), and that'll also allow you to use the same stat for both types of casting, which is nice in general.

[Jormengand]

Closest thing I ever saw to a paladin that wasn't dependent on basically autoattacking things was the A-Game Paladin (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471332-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin-(Tempest_Stormwind)), which is basically bardic music and Sword of the Arcane Order stuck onto a specific Paladin chassis.

I don't think you can go full spellcaster, but the A-Game Pally always looked pretty exciting to me.

That paladin can't cast spells (except the ones from SAO) because power word aeshkrau doesn't get rid of the minimum wisdom. Ignoring the fact that the writer clearly didn't think that one through (also, he thinks the second MFK substitution has no drawback, meaning he didn't read the hit die), it's a nice build.

I'm currently looking at getting a dragonnel mount and spamming Call Mount for a ridiculously good second-level summoning spell, as well as Animate With the Spirit. I reckon that getting some way of being immune to strength damage (my current race plan isn't immune - it's a dragonborn illumian due to the ridiculous wording of the illumian sigils that says they don't go away when you turn into a dragonborn) would be helpful here, as with the other crazily-good exalted spells. Pearls of Power are also potentially massive value for money.

[Irk]

Battle Blessing can lend itself to some interesting things with regards to the Paladin spell list.

Winter's BlessingFrB + Battle Blessing means swift action Sleet Storm on one turn, and Snowsight and Snow Walk as long term buffs. Sort of a Snowsight + Obscuring Snow combo.

Initiate of Baravar CloakshadowCR + Battle Blessing nets you swift action Dimension Door. This is a pretty big one. On a Paladin, getting an optimized smite going and then using this in conjunction with some effects to make opponents flat-footed can be quite good I think.

I think this should work, but taking levels of Contemplative, or some other way of getting access to a domain, grabbing the Magic Domain, and then getting access to swift Anyspell secures you access to any 0th-2nd level arcane spell.

Mystic Fire Knight + Practiced Spellcaster can give you a swift action Scorching Ray at full capacity. Swift action Acid Arrow is also an option.
Smiting Spell + Battle Blessing can do on the fly stuff like Shocking Grasp delivered through a smite attack.
Anyspell also nets you access to Duskblade spells. Blade of Blood is already swift action, but quite good.
Dimension Hop + Smiting Spell + Battle Blessing for battlefield control


I'm putting this one separately, because I think it's huge on potential. Heroics is a second level, and with Anyspell and Battle Blessing, that means that you can instantly load up any Martial Study feat, and if you've dipped into an initiating class or already have Martial Study, Martial Stance is only a swift action away. The Anyspell - Heroics - Battle Blessing combo is really strong because it can mesh with a lot of the other things that Battle Blessing can play off of.

Initiate of Baravar Cloakshadow gets you swift action Dimension Door, make sure you used Heroics to grab Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Before you teleport, load up a Smiting Spell Shocking Grasp. Then you can teleport, and go to town with a beefed up Shocking Sapphire Nightmare Smite.

I don't know, maybe I'm interpreting Contemplative wrong. It seems like a cool little idea.

[Troacctid]

That paladin can't cast spells (except the ones from SAO) because power word aeshkrau doesn't get rid of the minimum wisdom. Ignoring the fact that the writer clearly didn't think that one through (also, he thinks the second MFK substitution has no drawback, meaning he didn't read the hit die), it's a nice build.

It also has both Milil and Mystra as patron deities, which IIRC isn't allowed in the Forgotten Realms--you have to pick one or the other.

[Irk]

It also has both Milil and Mystra as patron deities, which IIRC isn't allowed in the Forgotten Realms--you have to pick one or the other.

This is an important point. A lot of the time this lore is handwaved, but you need to talk to your DM if that's the case.

[Mrs Kat]

If you are in a world with both sovereign host and knights of the raven, you can go Paladin->Knight of the Raven 3->Sovereign Speaker.

This lets you pick up delicious domain spells in all of your paladin slots.



Add the Sun domain's spells to your class's spell list

As Sovereign Speaker requires you to have domain access to enter, I think it's fair to add spells from domains gained in the same manner.

Rhig's guide on Sovereign Speakers covers the prestige class and methods of entry in some detail.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3927.0

[sleepyphoenixx]

Initiate of Baravar Cloakshadow gets you swift action Dimension Door, make sure you used Heroics to grab Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Before you teleport, load up a Smiting Spell Shocking Grasp. Then you can teleport, and go to town with a beefed up Shocking Sapphire Nightmare Smite.

You're forgetting that you can't take actions after using Dimension Door until your next turn.

Also your spells come really really late. Swift action Scorching Ray isn't all that impressive when you get it at level 11, and since you really can't afford to use metamagic with it it remains pretty underwhelming.


It also has both Milil and Mystra as patron deities, which IIRC isn't allowed in the Forgotten Realms--you have to pick one or the other.
That one is mentioned in the post as a possible problem you'll have to talk to your DM about.
The build does work well enough without MFK and SotAO, it just loses some utility from the lack of wizard spells and some CL & spell slots. Not ideal, but you still get full Inspire Courage/Greatness and BAB so you're hardly useless.

[Jormengand]

Swift action Scorching Ray isn't all that impressive when you get it at level 11

Scorching Ray is a second level spell. Assuming BB+SAO works, of which I am still mildly skeptical but whatever, you get quickened Fireball at level 11, which a wizard without severe hax cannot cast (nor can she cast Quickened Scorching Ray at level 8 - in fact, the wizard gets it at, wait for it, level 11).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Scorching Ray is a second level spell. Assuming BB+SAO works, of which I am still mildly skeptical but whatever, you get quickened Fireball at level 11, which a wizard without severe hax cannot cast (nor can she cast Quickened Scorching Ray at level 8 - in fact, the wizard gets it at, wait for it, level 11).

Except that any wizard that intends to blast will use metamagic reducers and other build options that increase damage per spell - most of which you don't qualify for or qualify too late.
Nobody (sane) uses metamagic with more than a +1 adjustment without reducers of some kind. That's not "severe hax", it's SOP for any halfway optimized caster that relies on metamagic - which blasters generally do because non-metamagic enhanced blasting is pretty lame.

Blasting without investing resources into it is pretty much like a fighter trying to melee without Power Attack or similar damage boosters - it's a waste of time.
As a paladin you either don't qualify for those resources (Arcane Thesis is a big one here) or you do but don't have the feats to make it viable because you spend them on getting halfway adequate spellcasting in the first place.

And lets not forget that your spellcasting modifier is probably going to be pretty low. Unless you get Serenity your spell DCs will be low, as will your bonus spells (unless you'Re Illumian) and SotAO relies on intelligence no matter what. Not to mention that your lower CL will make any kind of SR a problem too.
That makes a big chunk of the good BFC spells a lot less useful, and the blasting that doesn't offer a save is usually single-target and still needs metamagic to do what you could do easier with a greatsword.

You're just much better off spending your spell slots on buffs and utility and doing your damage with your weapon instead of trying to emulate a blaster sorcerer. Paladin spellcasting just isn't suited for that no matter how much you invest into improving it.

[Irk]

You're forgetting that you can't take actions after using Dimension Door until your next turn.

Also your spells come really really late. Swift action Scorching Ray isn't all that impressive when you get it at level 11, and since you really can't afford to use metamagic with it it remains pretty underwhelming.

I always forget that about Dimension Door. In any case, it can be used as an end of turn move. It's an easy assurance that if you charge into tough spot or make a risky full attack, you'll still have a definite out.

As far as Scorching Ray goes, normally I'd agree, but since it's just a subset contained in a swift action Anyspell, I think it's different. Scorching Ray is one of many options, this is something that you can tailor however you like, and will always be useful, especially around levels 11-14.

Also, a swift action scorching ray could certainly be impressive, it really depends on what you pair it with. Swift action 12d6 on a spell that can be easily metamagic'd by powering it with turning could easily be part of a strong combo, and there are so many options to boost CL for a Paladin.

[Jormengand]

Except that any wizard that intends to blast will use metamagic reducers and other build options that increase damage per spell - most of which you don't qualify for or qualify too late.
Nobody (sane) uses metamagic with more than a +1 adjustment without reducers of some kind. That's not "severe hax", it's SOP for any halfway optimized caster that relies on metamagic - which blasters generally do because non-metamagic enhanced blasting is pretty lame.

Well, let's have a look at the list of all metamagic reducers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9876.0)...


Arcane thesis applies to one spell.
Easy Metamagic requires you to be using a lenient DM and enough patience to sift through 325 dragon magazines.
Forceful Metamagic requires the above and is also bad
Metamagic School Focus only works 3/day for one school.
Practical Metamagic requires you be a spontaneous caster and also have a subtype which isn't easy to get your hands on.
Undead battery is a build-around-me feat that cannot sanely be called standard.


Apart from actually dropping levels in PrCs 0 - three of which are usually banned by DMs and one of which is FR-only - there are few-to-no realistic ways to drop a metamagic by more than 1.

Anyway, I'm gonna start building. My build is probably going to be IllumianRoD (Power Word Aeshkrau) DragonbornRotD (Draconic Aspect Wings, though you can choose heart if you want something interesting to do with your actions other than hitting people with a stick and that doesn't use spell slots) Dragonscale HuskDM PaladinPHB 3/Mystic Fire KnightCoV 3/Paladin 11/WonderworkerBoED 3. Just for fun, my mount is a dragonnel as soon as I can get one, and a spiked felldrake immediately I can get one of those (by which point I can fly on my own). Because I only reach paladin 17, I end up with the felldrake (which uses level -6) as though I were 11th level, which is fine.

Let's assume we go with 18/12(-2)/12(+2)/10/10/12: we can get items that boost our INT and WIS to the point where we can cast all our paladin and wizard spells, as well as also putting all our points and a +5 tome and a +6 item in STR for a total of 34 strength. Aeshkrau is silly.

A final note: I don't feel at this point like messing around with Proto-creatureBoK but that's a thing you can do if you want.



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Feats



1st
Paladin 1

+1

+2

+0

+0

Nymph's KissBoED



2nd
Paladin 2

+2

+3

+0

+0

-



3rd
Paladin 3

+3

+3

+1

+1

Improved Power SigilsRoD



4th
MFK 4

+4

+4

+1

+1

-



5th
MFK 5

+5

+4

+1

+1

-



6th
MFK 6

+6

+5

+2

+2

Sword of the Arcane OrderCoV



7th
Paladin 7

+7

+5

+2

+2

-



8th
Paladin 8

+8

+6

+2

+2

-



9th
Paladin 9

+9

+6

+3

+3

Battle BlessingCC



10th
Paladin 10

+10

+7

+3

+3

-



11th
Paladin 11

+11

+7

+3

+3

-



12th
Paladin 12

+12

+8

+4

+4

Celestial MountBoED



13th
Paladin 13

+13

+8

+4

+4

-



14th
Paladin 14

+14

+9

+4

+4

-



15th
Paladin 15

+15

+9

+5

+5

Servant of the HeavensBoED



16th
Paladin 16

+16

+10

+5

+5

-



17th
Paladin 17

+17

+10

+5

+5

-



18th
Paladin 17/Wonderworker 1

+17

+10

+5

+7

Hands of a HealerBoED, Practiced SpellcasterPHB



19th
Paladin 17/Wonderworker 2

+18

+10

+5

+8

Nimbus of LightBoED



20th
Paladin 17/Wonderworker 3

+18

+11

+6

+8

StigmataBoED




Spells per Day


Level
1st

2nd
3rd
4th



4th

2

-
-
-


5th
2

-
-
-


6th
3

-
-
-


7th
3

-
-
-


8th
4

2

-
-


9th
4

2

-
-


10th
4

3

-
-


11th
4

3

2

-


12th
4

3

3

-


13th
4

3

3

-


14th
5

3

3

2



15th
5

3

3

3



16th
5

5

3

3



17th
5

5

4

3



18th
5

5

5

4



19th
5

5

7

5



20th
5

5

8

6




The table does include the strength bonuses from starting with 18 and ending with 23, but not the ones from items or extra stuff from knowing how to use a pearl of power. With the final strength of 34, you end up with your 20th-level slot reading 7/6/10/8. Given that those are all quickened spells, that's pretty much on par with a wizard. Because Summon Mount is intrinsically better than pretty much every other summoning spell in existence (it takes about a round to murder a monster II or nature's ally II very brutally), it's even more ridiculously awesome.

I've decided I like this build. :smallbiggrin:

[Xuldarinar]

I have to ask;

Does silver pyromancer have any applications here?

[Jormengand]

I have to ask;

Does silver pyromancer have any applications here?

It allows wizards to pretend they're paladins, but I'm more looking for the reverse.

[Irk]

It allows wizards to pretend they're paladins, but I'm more looking for the reverse.

Again, I'd really encourage attempting to snag the Spell Domain for Battle Blessing Anyspell.


I have to ask;

Does silver pyromancer have any applications here?

Silver Pyromancer maybe could be used in a Sorcadin build of some sort, I'll look into that.

[Irk]

Actually, while we're here, what do people think of an alternate Sorcadin build that uses Silver Pyromancer and Practical Metamagic + Smiting Spell to channel blasting spells that can't be resisted with conventional energy resistance?

Combine that with the Sapphire Smite + Psycarnum Infusions + Psionic Meditation to get recharging smites. Combine that with Awesome Smite and Imporved Trip to let off 2 smites in 1 turn, grab Spellsword 4 to channel 2 spells at the same time, unleash the second one on the attack that you follow up with after the trip.

Silver Pyromancer nets you Paladin spells, cast devastating smite to round it out, for a pre-channel routine of two spells, both normally [fire] changed to sacred damage thanks to pyromancer. Start off a turn with full daily smites, Attack, channel first spell while smiting with Devastating Smite, trip through Awesome Smite, get off a second attack through Improved Trip, channel second spell while smiting again.

Thoughts?

[Troacctid]

Sapphire Smite + Psycarnum Infusion doesn't really recharge your smites. You go from x/day to x+y/day, and then back down to x/day when the infusion wears off, and then back up to x+y/day if you infuse it again--t which point if you've already used x+y today, you don't get more. Using it multiple times doesn't get you to x+y+y+y.../day.

[Xuldarinar]

I know someone else invoked it earlier, but;

Geomancer entered from a paladin. Although not explicit, it does say under spell versatility that you can mix and match spellcasting parameters from any of your classes to gain the maximum possible advantage from any spell (provided versatility is high enough). So what about a paladin geomancer build that utilizes battle blessing, treating all of their spells as paladin spells (given that effective class list is a arguably a parameter)?

[Irk]

Sapphire Smite + Psycarnum Infusion doesn't really recharge your smites. You go from x/day to x+y/day, and then back down to x/day when the infusion wears off, and then back up to x+y/day if you infuse it again--t which point if you've already used x+y today, you don't get more. Using it multiple times doesn't get you to x+y+y+y.../day.

I'd disagree. Let's say you have x smites/day. You use up all x, using Psycarnum Infusion on Sapphire Smite will net you Y more. Use those up, and then you just do the same thing again. I should have clarified that I don't mean you can use it and then instantly use it again to get more and more and more, you use up the pool before triggering Psycarnum Infusion again.

[Troacctid]

I'd disagree. Let's say you have x smites/day. You use up all x, using Psycarnum Infusion on Sapphire Smite will net you Y more. Use those up, and then you just do the same thing again. I should have clarified that I don't mean you can use it and then instantly use it again to get more and more and more, you use up the pool before triggering Psycarnum Infusion again.

You have smite 1/day. You smite once, now you're capped. You increase it temporarily to smite 2/day, smite again, you're capped again. It wears off, back to 1/day, of which you've used 2. You temporarily boost it again to 2/day, but you've already used 2 today, so you're still capped.

This is the same as the interaction between Eagle's Splendor and Turn Undead. You give yourself a temporary Cha boost, and it results in extra uses of turn undead. When it wears off, the game still remembers how many turning attempts you've used today, so you can't get more by boosting your Cha again.

[Irk]

You have smite 1/day. You smite once, now you're capped. You increase it temporarily to smite 2/day, smite again, you're capped again. It wears off, back to 1/day, of which you've used 2. You temporarily boost it again to 2/day, but you've already used 2 today, so you're still capped.

This is the same as the interaction between Eagle's Splendor and Turn Undead. You give yourself a temporary Cha boost, and it results in extra uses of turn undead. When it wears off, the game still remembers how many turning attempts you've used today, so you can't get more by boosting your Cha again.

But since Psycarnum Infusion only lasts 1 round, I would think that what happens is that you start with smite 1/day. You use it, then you Infusion, and go to 2/day, and you use your second one. Next turn rolls over, and you are back to 1/day. Trigger Infusion again, and it puts you back at 2/day, giving you another smite to use.

But then again, Infusion changing back the turn afterwards doesn't change the fact that you have used a second smite.

This is a very disappointing revelation, I thought I had found a way to make smiting more interesting, but I should have realized that it wasn't the same as the Midnight Metamagic trick.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to get some sort of similar effect? The closes I can see is that class that burns turn undead attempts to get smiting, which is similar because you can just boost your turn attempts to crazy high numbers.

blech.

I'm glad you took the time to explain this to me, but I really wish it would work.

[DrMartin]

I've been thinking about a paladin-based ultimate magus, inspired by the wiz-assassin build in a weekly optimization showcase...(it requires assuming that alternative spell source make your paladin casting count as arcane for prerequisite purpose, which i'm not sure it does.)

Something like Sorc 1 / Pal 5 / ultimate magus 10 /mystic theurge 4 (early feats include versatile spellcaster, alternative spell source, any metamagic, and sword of the arcane order)

This would give base casting of Sorc 16th / Pal 16th, with caster levels of 20th and 18th (with practiced spellcaster for the paladin). Also, your sorcerer side knows 5 spell from the paladin spell list. BAB kind of stinks (+12)

mnh, neither here nor there. just thought i'd put it out there :D