The Ultimate Tank

[Lindonius]

So what class combinations/races make for the most survivable characters?

I say this because in my current game I play a halfling thief, he's up to lev 9 now but he would not have gotten that far if it wasn't for two things; Fast hands and Halfling Luck. Judicious use of glugging healing potions as a bonus action and re-rolling 1s on death saves has kept him alive. If I'd taken any other race (except maybe Half-orc), he'd be dead. If i'd gone for the more "optimal" assassin instead of the somewhat maligned thief... he'd be dead. I think survivability in a character doesn't get the kudos it deserves in this damage obsessed community, so let's make some tanky builds.....Remember that old addage "you do 0 DPS if you're dead".

So I'm assuming Bear totem's gotta be in there somehwere, maybe Paladin vitality too. How important is AC? Abjurers and Moon Druids have a few tanky qualities. Warlock has AoA and a few tanky invocations. As for races, I found the halfling surprisingly tanky with his immunity to death save fumbles, but half-orc resilience, gnome saves, dwarven constitution are also good choices. How about feats? My halfling would also be dead if it wasn't for the lucky feat allowing me to add a dice to a save against a beholder death ray.

So basically forget DPS, let's just build the ultimate tank, the ultimate survivor...... the tardigrade of the d&d world.

Over to you guys.

[Sigreid]

I like champion fighter for a tank, especially at higher levels. Lots of ASI mean you can eliminate most of your real weaknesses and still take great feats like shield master and grapple expert. The most attacks/round + action surge means you can punish more than 1-2 people per round for trying to get near or past you. Improved Crit + more attacks means a lot more crits. More attacks means some weapons like the flame tongue have the potential for a hell of a lot more damage (they get more out of any magic weapon than anyone else, really). That regeneration ability of theirs with a high AC and maybe occasionally taking the dodge action to give it time to catch up gives you some crazy survivability.

Yes, I know Bear Barb is the popular answer.

[TheRedTemplar]

My personal two cents would be a well played Paladorc. Without any magical items you can have a base AC of 23 (Platemail + Shield + Defense Fighting Style), use spells like Blur and Protection from Good and Evil to impose disadvantage on all enemy attacks, and use Shield to add a +5 to your AC as a reaction (bumping it up to 29, without magical items). With magical items, you can get even higher AC totals that make even the Tarraquse look like chumps. Additionally, Oath of Ancient/Devotion net you Spell Resistance/Immunity to Charm, both of which are insanely useful, and you get the Auras of Protection and Courage for both. On top of this, if you pick Storm Sorcerer you can net Resistances to both Lightning and Thunder damage, an extra oomph with spells of those damage types, and the ability to fly 10 feet without provoking AoO. If you pick a race with an inherit resistance (like fire) and use Protection from Poison (which has no concentration and a good duration), you can really cover the most common damage types. Protection from Energy and Stoneskin can also provide extra beefiness, while your ability to buff and heal yourself keeps you alive for a really long time. Regardless of your offensive output, there's no denying that anyone trying to hit you is going to have one hell of a hard time doing so, and even if they do you can easily heal off most any damage. Unlike most other options (keyword being most), it's also incredibly versatile. It's an odd pick, but it's the one I find the most fun to play and the one I'd recommend the most.

[Squibsallotl]

A "tank" and a highly survivable character aren't necessarily the same thing. The former needs a way to keep enemy attention focused on him, either via specialized control abilities (like Sentinel) or by being a high damage threat.

A cleric with Sanctuary is a pretty damn survivable character, but they can't "tank" per se.

I'd say Goliath Moon Druid with Sentinel and Lucky as the ultimate tank. Reaction damage resistance per short rest, three HP pools per long rest, Concentration damage spells to improve threat level, and Sentinel/sticky forms for control.

[Lindonius]

A "tank" and a highly survivable character aren't necessarily the same thing. The former needs a way to keep enemy attention focused on him, either via specialized control abilities (like Sentinel) or by being a high damage threat.

A cleric with Sanctuary is a pretty damn survivable character, but they can't "tank" per se.

I'd say Goliath Moon Druid with Sentinel and Lucky as the ultimate tank. Reaction damage resistance per short rest, three HP pools per long rest, Concentration damage spells to improve threat level, and Sentinel/sticky forms for control.

Yeah sanctuary is a little different in that you survive because you can't be targeted. While I'm not as interested in the ability to attract aggro as I am in the pure damage sponge, it'll be interesting to see some of those as well.

I'm looking for the d&d version of Rocky Balboa. I forgot about goliaths they seem like a good choice. And I like the Paladorc. I'm wondering if we can squeeze in the 3 barb as well.

[MaxWilson]

At level 14+, a Halfling Death Monk with the Lucky feat should be almost impossible to kill. Definitely the last man standing in any fight. He can take 14 killing blows per short rest without even going down!

[ShikomeKidoMi]

At level 14+, a Halfling Death Monk with the Lucky feat should be almost impossible to kill. Definitely the last man standing in any fight. He can take 14 killing blows per short rest without even going down!
And that's not even mentioning proficiency on all saves, his ability to gain hitpoints by killing people, that he can just outrun a lot of enemies if a fight turns bad, etc.

[Cybren]

And that's not even mentioning proficiency on all saves, his ability to gain hitpoints by killing people, that he can just outrun a lot of enemies if a fight turns bad, etc.

Well, he implicitly mentions it in that he specified 14th level hafling long death monk

[Talamare]

Ultimate Tank?

Maybe Bearbarian 3, Paladin 17

[Lavok Rammstein]

I really like Barbarian 3/Monk X. Has a lot of great defensive oportunities. It is a little MAD to be optimal. I wish I had more time to get into specifics, but check it out.

[Desamir]

And that's not even mentioning proficiency on all saves, his ability to gain hitpoints by killing people, that he can just outrun a lot of enemies if a fight turns bad, etc.

Can we sprinkle in the ability to turn invisible and gain resistance to damage at level 18? Altogether, that probably beats totem barb.

[Lindonius]

I really like Barbarian 3/Monk X. Has a lot of great defensive oportunities. It is a little MAD to be optimal. I wish I had more time to get into specifics, but check it out.

Yeah now I look at it, Barb3/Monk14 seems helluva tough. You could just go to monk 18 for almost the same benefit as totem bear but it is dependent on ki points. You wouldn't need stuff like the gnome's advantage on mental spell saves if you took this, so I'd be inclined to go halfling for the reroll 1s and the schnitz and giggles. So is the answer just a pure(ish) halfling monk? :smallbiggrin: The capstone seems a bit meh. So maybe Monk18/x2 (Rogue?), or Barb3/Monk14/x3 (Thief?)

[djreynolds]

A ranger can grab heavy armor, defensive duelist, can select evasion or uncanny dodge, and have stoneskin. It all depends how much magic weapons are out there. If magic weapons, bear totem has to be the big winner with 5 levels of rogue or a monk/barbarian.

[Lines]

As has already been mentioned, you aren't looking for a tank, merely a damage sponge. They're very different things.

Regardless, an order of the immortal mystic provides int mod temporary hp per turn and amazing defenses, combine it with a totem bearbarian and you'll be functionally immortal.

[djreynolds]

As has already been mentioned, you aren't looking for a tank, merely a damage sponge. They're very different things.

Regardless, an order of the immortal mystic provides int mod temporary hp per turn and amazing defenses, combine it with a totem bearbarian and you'll be functionally immortal.

That's a very cool build, actually,

Plain old paladin is very good.

[Lines]

That's a very cool build, actually,

Plain old paladin is very good.

Synergises pretty well. Obviously you should go barbarian 5 for extra attack, just left it at 4 because that's when the defense ends. Barbarian 5 provides great damage (+2 damage, 2 attacks, reckless attack) and on top of that you stack a bunch of mystic since unlike spells, psychic powers can be used while raging. You can use them to boost your defenses and to add a bunch of damage to your hits.

Or if you have the stats you can max dex+int+con, equalling 26 armour class if you take a couple of bladesinger levels.

[Cespenar]

Moon Druid X/Barbarian 1s make pretty good tanks. Barkskin + borrowed HP + damage reduction = pretty crazy effective hp. Get Sentinel at level 5 or level 1 as Vhuman.

[joaber]

Synergises pretty well. Obviously you should go barbarian 5 for extra attack, just left it at 4 because that's when the defense ends. Barbarian 5 provides great damage (+2 damage, 2 attacks, reckless attack) and on top of that you stack a bunch of mystic since unlike spells, psychic powers can be used while raging. You can use them to boost your defenses and to add a bunch of damage to your hits.

Or if you have the stats you can max dex+int+con, equalling 26 armour class if you take a couple of bladesinger levels.

no, they can't. I asked to Mike Mears and he said "treat as spellcasting". Besides, while in rage you can't even mantain concentration in nothing, how you supose to use psychic powers?

I can understand a moon druid using psyonic powers in wild shape (but the designer say otherwise), but not a ragging barbarian.

@Lindonius, monk 18 spend 4 ki points for encounter, but he has 18 per short rest (2 encounter medium). A lvl 3 barbarian can only rage 2 times per day (2 encounters in 6-8/day). Only monk will be waaaaaay better.

topic, moon druid alone is a good tank and will be the better possible at lvl 20, you only need to be sticky, since if you enemie can avoid you to attack another creature, you're not a good tank.

[Lines]

no, they can't. I asked to Mike Mears and he said "treat as spellcasting". Besides, while in rage you can't even mantain concentration in nothing, how you supose to use psychic powers?

I can understand a moon druid using psyonic powers in wild shape (but the designer say otherwise), but not a ragging barbarian.


Easy. The playtest document says nothing about powers not being usable in a rage, many don't require concentration and rage states that 'if you are able to cast spells, you can't cast them or concentrate while raging'. The mystic/barbarian can't cast spells, so that doesn't apply.

And since when do barbarians rag?

[joaber]

Easy. The playtest document says nothing about powers not being usable in a rage, many don't require concentration and rage states that 'if you are able to cast spells, you can't cast them or concentrate while raging'. The mystic/barbarian can't cast spells, so that doesn't apply.

And since when do barbarians rag?


https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/699750114382864384?lang=pt-br

They obviously don't say nothing because is a playtest. By that logic, you can't multiclass as mystic at all, because there isn't any RAW about multiclass as mystic.

You can rule how you want, since isn't official. In fact you can house rule anything official too, but don't think most DMs will let a raging* barbarian in a pure ferocity have all power of "a rigid set of mental exercises".

[Lines]

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/699750114382864384?lang=pt-br

They obviously don't say nothing because is a playtest. By that logic, you can't multiclass as mystic at all, because there isn't any RAW about multiclass as mystic.

You can rule how you want, since isn't official. In fact you can house rule anything official too, but don't think most DMs will let a raging* barbarian in a pure ferocity have all power of "a rigid set of mental exercises".

That says treat them as spellcasting for wild shape, not rage.

[joaber]

That says treat them as spellcasting for wild shape, not rage.

Hahahahaha and why you think with barb rage will be different since as wild shape you can at least concentrate in a spell?

Why you don't ask him? Like I said, rule how you want, but don't think most DMs will accept that.

[Lines]

Hahahahaha and why you think with barb rage will be different since as wild shape you can at least concentrate in a spell?

Why you don't ask him? Like I said, rule how you want, but don't think most DMs will accept that.

I am the DM, and I ruled that way because a player wanted to multiclass mystic and barbarian and I figured why not? He's going for a mind-and-body kind of theme, seems to fit perfectly.

And wild shape wise that's the kind of ruling I'd ignore - psionics is purely mental, unlike spellcasting that needs hands and a mouth that can shape words, so there's no reason a druid (who keeps their mind) couldn't cast in bear form. It's a deeply suboptimal multiclass anyway, the druid heavily lacks damage while wild shaped past the few levels and psionics does nothing to alleviate that.

[joaber]

I am the DM, and I ruled that way because a player wanted to multiclass mystic and barbarian and I figured why not? He's going for a mind-and-body kind of theme, seems to fit perfectly.

And wild shape wise that's the kind of ruling I'd ignore - psionics is purely mental, unlike spellcasting that needs hands and a mouth that can shape words, so there's no reason a druid (who keeps their mind) couldn't cast in bear form. It's a deeply suboptimal multiclass anyway, the druid heavily lacks damage while wild shaped past the few levels and psionics does nothing to alleviate that.

1 lvl of awakened mind psionic give to a moon druid:

expertise in athletics (grapple)
darkvision (in wild shape, since is a condition, not racial)
telepathy (if allowed in wild shape this is your form to communication with your friends)
advantage in iniciative, can't be surprise and 5 feet more movement, that you change in combat to
+1 weapon magic attack (you don't have that in wild shape)
4d10 extra damage day

is a hell of a trade for just 1 lvl deep, and you only need int 13, nothing more.

I need to agree with you that psionic in wild shape is completly acceptable, since you don't need verbal, somatic or material components and only need your perfect mind that you keep in wild shape.

I can't agree that you can perform "a rigid set of mental exercises" (quoting UA content) while in rage, since you can't even maintain some concentration. But your table your rules.

at least I don't see any real game breaking with that combination. Is strong, but have things much worse in UA content.

[Lines]

1 lvl of awakened mind psionic give to a moon druid:

expertise in athletics (grapple)
darkvision (in wild shape, since is a condition, not racial)
telepathy (if allowed in wild shape this is your form to communication with your friends)
advantage in iniciative, can't be surprise and 5 feet more movement, that you change in combat to
+1 weapon magic attack (you don't have that in wild shape)
4d10 extra damage day

is a hell of a trade for just 1 lvl deep, and you only need int 13, nothing more.

I need to agree with you that psionic in wild shape is completly acceptable, since you don't need verbal, somatic or material components and only need your perfect mind that you keep in wild shape.

I can't agree that you can perform "a rigid set of mental exercises" (quoting UA content) while in rage, since you can't even maintain some concentration. But your table your rules.

at least I don't see any real game breaking with that combination. Is strong, but have things much worse in UA content.

Yeah, but mystic's equally great for everyone. Worse for some, if you're a wizard it gives you heavy armour regardless of your level.

[BenTheJester]

A "tank" and a highly survivable character aren't necessarily the same thing. The former needs a way to keep enemy attention focused on him, either via specialized control abilities (like Sentinel) or by being a high damage threat.

A cleric with Sanctuary is a pretty damn survivable character, but they can't "tank" per se.

I agree!

As tanks, I love BearBarb 5 (or 3)/Rogue.
You get:
-Resistance damage to all except psychic
-Reaction to half damage
-Good AC and HP, since you'll probably max Con
-Advantage on reflex saves and full damage on saves
-High damage making you a valuable target.

Bladesinger can be very good as well:
I like 10 wizard/10 fighter, but 1-2 fighter/18-19 wiz is nice too
-Potentially very high AC (13 mage armor+5 dex+5 int), at wizard lvl 18, you can cast Shield at-will, giving you an effective +5 AC at the cost of your reaction
-indomitable
-High damage absorption
-Yer a wizard, so people will want to target ye

[Sigreid]

So, I'm not try to start a fight but just give people something to think about but I think barb is a bit over rated. The reason is that until very high level you have a pretty limited number of times you can turn the rage on, and while it's probably mostly fine, a clever enemy could potentially take advantage of that must attack or take damage clause to keep the rage going to shut it down, burning the uses before they go after you hard. This kind of thing shouldn't happen all the time as a screw the player standard move, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

[Giant2005]

Sigreid certainly raises a good point. I have never played a Barb but I have played alongside one quite recently and it was kind of lackluster. The Barb was awesome for the three fights that it was able to Rage for (particularly because it was Wolf totem and gave us all advantage to our attacks - I'm not even sure if the Barb was targeted, so the damage resistance aspect didn't come into play) but that was just 3 fights out of possibly a dozen within the dungeon we were exploring. During those other fights, the Barb was kind of useless.

As for tanky combinations, as the others have said pure Monk is certainly up there. Once they get to level 18, nothing really compares.
The Paladin 6/Sorc X combination is another good one due to having potentially high AC (Shield, Shield spell, Blur, Heavy Armor, Defensive Fighting Style) and great saves due to the Paladin's aura.
Another good option is Fighter 1/Enchanter X. It is basically the same as the Paladin/Sorc combination but it trades great saves for more spellcasting potential and an extra layer of physical defense via Instinctive Charm.
Another good but much more convoluted option is a Cleric 1/Beastmaster X combination. Take the mounted combatant feat (and be a small race with a medium companion) so your companion can't be targeted by physical attacks and use the Sanctuary spell (and exclusively rely on the companion for damage) so you are very hard to target with physical attacks. You get extra points for taking 6 levels of Enchanter for the extra layers of physical defense that Instinctive Charm and Blur bring to the table, 6 levels of Paladin for the saves aura, or 3 levels of Battlemaster so your action isn't entirely wasted (via Commander's Strike).

Something like Beast Master 4/Cleric 1/Ancient Paladin 9/Enchanter 6 with Shield Master and Mounted Combatant is MAD as hell (although less severely so considering the character itself won't be attacking anything) but basically impervious to all harm. Physical attacks have almost no chance of getting through and the combination of the Paladin's Auras, Shield Master and Mounted Combatant mean that it is unlikely for you to take any damage from save based attacks, and if you do, it will only be 1/4 the normal damage. If there is a lot more save based damage being thrown around rather than actual attacks, you could even drop Blur in order to throw up Aura of Vitality to keep your (and your companion's) hit points topped up throughout combat.

[djreynolds]

We hear the term tank and damage sponge and striker. A tank is someone with high hit points and high AC and good DPR. The tank draws agro from the enemy as they try to crack his shell and get to the soft parts. And he/she can hit hard. Can spike damage when needed but also has good DPR.

You must appear to be a threat that will attract multiple attackers so you can assume a good battle formation and hold the lines so archers and casters and rogue can attack unfettered.

Plate Armor is really good. A good wisdom save. Feats to make use of bonus actions and reactions. 1 minute is 10 rounds, so a barbarian can hang for awhile. Fighters and paladins are the easiest to play. Druids and clerics are nice if they have a good concentration save. A monk can do it, but his speed is wasted, which IMO is a major asset that is not being used.

Spells not requiring concentration like mirror image and fire shield are nice. Resistances.

But a high AC is really needed and good, not incredible DPR. Hold the enemy and waste his time dealing with you.

I like a fighter with a shield. Easy to optimize with feats. Grab resilient wisdom, no charming wanted. Paladins are sweet, because they can hit hard when the opportunity arises.

I have tanked a lot with my abjurer wizard when my spell lay out was useless vs fiends. Can be done. Shield spell is really nice to have. HIGH AC

[spartan_ah]

I'm hitting level 4 as a hill dwarf moon Druid. And I have a bag of hp with my 17 CON and extra hit point. Next level I'll take resilient CON and will be par with my barb on hit points and with proficiency in con and wis saves I think that moon Druid is pretty tanky and with the 2 most important saves

[djreynolds]

I'm hitting level 4 as a hill dwarf moon Druid. And I have a bag of hp with my 17 CON and extra hit point. Next level I'll take resilient CON and will be par with my barb on hit points and with proficiency in con and wis saves I think that moon Druid is pretty tanky and with the 2 most important saves

Remember to cast barkskin, as you can still maintain as previously casted concentration spell in animal form, even moonbeam.

[spartan_ah]

Remember to cast barkskin, as you can still maintain as previously casted concentration spell in animal form, even moonbeam.

That's why I take resilient in the first place

[djreynolds]

That's why I take resilient in the first place

Agreed, of all classes, A druid has ASI/feats to spare on resilient con at 1st or 4th level. Very tanky then.

[Legokeiki]

I made this character build for my friend who wants to be our party's tank. He wants to be a paladin, so he won't have godlike amounts of health, but... Well, let the build explain for itself.

Ultimate defender paladin.

Paladin 12 (Vengeance)
Mystic 3 (Immortal) Iron Durability +1 AC, Giant growth (+5 reach, +10 in ogre form, Psionic Resilience & adaptive shield)
Fighter 2 (Fighting style, action surge for better smiting)
Warlock 3 (aether elder) +5 AC (with exoskeleton mutation)

Polearm master feat (AOOs when entering your reach)

Sentinel feat (makes you much stickier)

Shield master feat (helpful for dex saves)

I recommend learning shield of faith for 1 min of +2 AC.* Shield is good too, but uses reaction and only lasts one round.

Plate 18 ac
Shield +2 ac
Defense fighting style +1 ac
Tunnel fighter fighting style (infinite AOOs)
Using quarterstaff

Races: warforged (+1 ac) or narolith (+1 ac)

AC 28 (30 with shield of faith)

Expexted AC at lv 20 with magic items : 36

20 ft. Reach in ogre form, infinite opportunity attacks, provoked when entering reach.*

I think there are a couple of ways to get you AC higher than this, but beyond the mid thirties, it's usually ludicrous.* The tarrasque has a +19 to hit.* At 36 AC, it needs a 17+ roll to hit you. With shield of faith, it needs a 19 to hit you.* This build is about as optimal as you can get, and it also gives you some real heft with the unlimited opportunity attacks.* You can literally wipe out armies without a scratch.* The only thing that is realistically ever going to damage you are spells, breath weapons, etc.* Between the mystic adaptive shield and shield master, you can mitigate a lot of the damage from these effects.* Plus with psionic resilience, you always have 3 temp hit points.*

At this point, the only thing that's gonna kill you is falling off a cliff, (which can be negated with air mastery from mystic), flying into the sun (which can be lessened with adaptive shield or taking mystic fire mastery), or getting crushed by a giant magical d20 from the sky because the DM hates you and your unkillable character, and you probably deserve to die anyway for using this build.

PS I don't know why there are random asterisks.

[Talamare]

Just saying when including +3 Gear

A +3 Shield is expected
A +3 18 AC armor, actually isnt...

The random tables in the DMG suggests that +3 Plate and +3 Half Plate as being nearly 20x rarer than Legendary Weapons.

However, both Ring of Protection and Cloak of Protections could be considered expected.
18+2 AC or 17+3 AC, from Armor
2+3 AC, from Shield
+2 AC, from Jewelry

27 AC, from Equipment.

[DarkKnightJin]

I've been theorycrafting an Aasimar Paladin of the Ancients, with that Angelic Protection racial feat.
Advantage on all saves vs magic, and Resistance to all magic damage.. on top of being able to get 21+ AC before any magic items?

You'll be a pain to deal with, for sure.
Oh, and innate Resistance to Radiant and Necrotic damage.

[Tallytrev813]

Apologies if this is considered resurrecting an old thread, i thought since so much info on the topic is contained in this thread (and it looks like it's been resurrected before) it was worth bumping.

I am contemplating how to play a tank best in 5e. I skimmed through the thread, and I wanted to see what people thought of my opinion.

Tanks aren't just about survivability (as mentioned in thread), you need to find ways to force the enemies to attack you and not your allies. It's great to have 27 AC, but if the bad guy is just ignoring you then you're not serving your purpose.


I was thinking the best tank looks to me like a straight totem Barbarian who goes Bear/X/Bear. Start as a Mountain Dwarf (Variant human would also work) - and point buy to 17/14/17 Str/Dex/Con.

1st ASI - 18/18 str/con
2nd ASI - Sentinel
3rd ASI - 20 con
4th ASI - 20 Str
5th ASI - Mage Slayer

This now puts you at 24/14/24 Str/Dex/Con. Unarmored defense (with a shield) gives you 21 AC with no magical items, plus you get half damage on almost everything (except psychic dmg) with a big HP pool. This is pretty thick, though not nearly as thick as some higher AC or Health regenerating builds (Paladin or Druid) BUT...

It nearly FORCES your target to focus on you.

If they attack someone else?
Disadvantage, AND you get an opportunity attack, and if you hit they drop to 0 speed.

If the cast on someone else?
You get an opportunity attack, AND your hits break their concentration quickly, AND you have advantage against their casting on you.

If they try to run?
Sorry. You cant disengage, AND i get to attack you, AND if i hit you drop to 0 speed and cant run.


It's not the most survivable, but it makes it SUCH a pain for the target to take aim at others, and if you have a healer in the group and guys able to do things like counterspell and such.

Curious what people think regarding this...

[ZiddyT]

There's the Yuan-Ti Ancients Paladin, if you want your DM to hate you. Toss in Ancestral or Zealot Barbarian multiclass any you could probably get a book or two thrown your way.

[Man_Over_Game]

We don't like thread necromancy on the forums. It ends up supporting stale arguments when a new thread would have much more recent and relevant information. A good common practice is to create a new thread and link to the old thread as a discussion point in the new thread.

The only times I've seen necromancy be remotely acceptable is if the thread was intended to be some kind of resource, like a guide of some sort, and not to primarily be a thread for discussions.