What would be the ramifications of capping all CL at 25?

[Jowgen]

I was perusing Orcus' statblock in Dungeon 149; and noticed that the caster level for his SLAs is 25, even though he's got 36 HD in this. I thought "oh, that makes his blasphemy a lot less of an I-win button".

Now I am wondering, if one were to universally cap all CL at 25, how would (semi-)optimized gameplay change? Any input welcome.:smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

I was perusing Orcus' statblock in Dungeon 149; and noticed that the caster level for his SLAs is 25, even though he's got 36 HD in this. I thought "oh, that makes his blasphemy a lot less of an I-win button".

Now I am wondering, if one were to universally cap all CL at 25, how would (semi-)optimized gameplay change? Any input welcome.:smallsmile:

Eh, not much on most levels. Stuff like Consumptive Field and Circle Magic would scale a lot worse, but they'd still enable early access to CL25 (e.g. max CL Shapechange or Control Winds) spells, which is kind of a big deal. Since everyone's CL is capped, dispelling would be better but CL25 is still worlds above Greater Dispel Magic's CL cap of 20 and with all the anti-Dispel abilities in the game, it'd still be hard to Dispel anything without heavily focusing on it as a gameplan - and Disjunction would still exist.

What it would change is epic of course; little point in leveling caster classes if your Epic Spells are capped at CL25 too. You'll just take Epic Spellcasting and start taking levels in classes that grant abilities instead. However, given what a mess Epic is, I can't say much beyond it being a different mess afterwards.

[Beheld]

I was perusing Orcus' statblock in Dungeon 149; and noticed that the caster level for his SLAs is 25, even though he's got 36 HD in this. I thought "oh, that makes his blasphemy a lot less of an I-win button".

Now I am wondering, if one were to universally cap all CL at 25, how would (semi-)optimized gameplay change? Any input welcome.:smallsmile:

1) He also has stats in Fiendish Codex 1, and he doesn't have 36HD.

2) It would change literally nothing, because no one plays games past level 17, or allows CL shenanigans so no one will care.

3) If hypothetically you played such games, it would mean that Greater Dispel would still have a 5% chance of dispelling each spell on a targeted dispel at level 20 when everyone used to manufacture CL 30 just so they were undispellable.

[Jowgen]

1) He also has stats in Fiendish Codex 1, and he doesn't have 36HD.

Yes, 26 HD in FC I if I recall correctly. Quite a step down from the 37 he had in BoVD, especially considering the casting he had in that. Personally, I find the 36 HD version from dungeonscape to be the most strealined; especially with it including "The Last Word" and all that.


3) If hypothetically you played such games, it would mean that Greater Dispel would still have a 5% chance of dispelling each spell on a targeted dispel at level 20 when everyone used to manufacture CL 30 just so they were undispellable.

Interesting. So "un-dispellable" would no longer be a thing. Certainly handy for balance.

[Beheld]

Interesting. So "un-dispellable" would no longer be a thing. Certainly handy for balance.

CL caps on dispel was dumb in the first place. I long ago ruled that Dispel Magic has no CL cap, and that CL = CR, and moved on with my life.

But this CL 25 cap isn't that. You get a 5% chance on each buff, that might as well be undispellable, and you are still 4 levels past 9th level spells, so people have been using Game Disjunction to clear buffs for a while.

[Crake]

3) If hypothetically you played such games, it would mean that Greater Dispel would still have a 5% chance of dispelling each spell on a targeted dispel at level 20 when everyone used to manufacture CL 30 just so they were undispellable.

shouldn't this be a 25% chance? Also there are actually quite a few ways to ramp up dispel checks without ramping up CL, I think up to the realm of something like +9-10 to your CL check (again without actually boosting CL), so with arcane mastery, auto dispels on things would still definitely be possible assuming people haven't focused on anti-dispel abilities.

[Beheld]

shouldn't this be a 25% chance? Also there are actually quite a few ways to ramp up dispel checks without ramping up CL, I think up to the realm of something like +9-10 to your CL check (again without actually boosting CL), so with arcane mastery, auto dispels on things would still definitely be possible assuming people haven't focused on anti-dispel abilities.

You can build an auto dispeller who auto succeeds, but you have to actually build that, you don't get it from just casting it, and NPCs usually aren't built for it. (IE, all the outsiders that get Greater Dispel at will.)

And no, it's not 25%, because everyone who's level 20 is going to buy a Ring of Enduring Arcana, because of course you are, you have more money than you can spend.

[Crake]

You can build an auto dispeller who auto succeeds, but you have to actually build that, you don't get it from just casting it, and NPCs usually aren't built for it. (IE, all the outsiders that get Greater Dispel at will.)

And no, it's not 25%, because everyone who's level 20 is going to buy a Ring of Enduring Arcana, because of course you are, you have more money than you can spend.

I've built auto dispeller NPCs plenty of times, mostly using warlock with voracious dispelling as the base though, which admittedly only goes up to CL10 or so, but still good for a majority of the game.

[Eldariel]

2) It would change literally nothing, because no one plays games past level 17, or allows CL shenanigans so no one will care.

Okay, wait, is this one of those "this is how I play and therefore this is how everybody plays"-things?

[nyjastul69]

1) He also has stats in Fiendish Codex 1, and he doesn't have 36HD.

2) It would change literally nothing, because no one plays games past level 17, or allows CL shenanigans so no one will care.

3) If hypothetically you played such games, it would mean that Greater Dispel would still have a 5% chance of dispelling each spell on a targeted dispel at level 20 when everyone used to manufacture CL 30 just so they were undispellable.

You claim some gross assumptions about how people play the game. Your assumptions are incorrect. I would actually suggest that you might be unique in how you play the game.

[Grod_The_Giant]

2) It would change literally nothing, because no one plays games past level 17, or allows CL shenanigans so no one will care.
Weird as it is to say it, I agree with Beheld. CL 25 will only appear in games with extremely high levels, high cheese, or both-- certainly the vast majority of gaming groups fall outside those categories. And even then, there aren't many spells that scale meaningfully with oversized CL. Damage spells have caps, increased durations rarely matters beyond the first few levels, and... that's about it for most things. I honestly don't think most groups would notice any effect until epic levels.

[Beheld]

I've built auto dispeller NPCs plenty of times, mostly using warlock with voracious dispelling as the base though, which admittedly only goes up to CL10 or so, but still good for a majority of the game.

My point is that they have to be built for that. If the DM decides he's going to dispel all your buffs, he's going to dispel all your buffs, he can pull out a CR 9 contrsuct with Disjunction at will. But if the DM is just using monsters or characters that already exist without deciding in advance to dispel all your buffs, then CL 30 makes you immune to Greater Dispel, and CL 20 makes you immune to Dispel Magic. (And you can jam a Ring of Enduring Arcana, and maybe a Prayer Bead in there to get that really easily.)


Okay, wait, is this one of those "this is how I play and therefore this is how everybody plays"-things?

What are you pursuing a personal grudge or something? 99% of games don't feature 9th level spells, that's not that weird, there are lots of good reasons to not play games at level 17 when the entire concept of the game broke down at level 15 when Wizards became literally undetectable and able to call a 150 CR 20 devils to serve them at a time.

99.99999999% of games don't allow you to persist Greater Consumptive Field and have a CL of 99999999 for your Holy Words, so yes, the vast majority of all games take place in a realm where a CL 25 cap not only doesn't change the game, but literally does nothing because no one was even going to be close to the cap.


You claim some gross assumptions about how people play the game. Your assumptions are incorrect. I would actually suggest that you might be unique in how you play the game.

So... you are weird.

Me: "This rule doesn't effect much, because the circumstances where it is applied are basically nonexistent, if they did come up, here is what would change."
You: "YOU ARE MAKING GROSS INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE GAME!"

I literally stated in the alternative so that my advice would address both the 99% of games that exist and the 1% of games.

[Eldariel]

MWhat are you pursuing a personal grudge or something? 99% of games don't feature 9th level spells, that's not that weird, there are lots of good reasons to not play games at level 17 when the entire concept of the game broke down at level 15 when Wizards became literally undetectable and able to call a 150 CR 20 devils to serve them at a time.

99.99999999% of games don't allow you to persist Greater Consumptive Field and have a CL of 99999999 for your Holy Words, so yes, the vast majority of all games take place in a realm where a CL 25 cap not only doesn't change the game, but literally does nothing because no one was even going to be close to the cap.

I have no particular interest in you, no. I'm merely perplexed that anyone would make a sweeping statement like "nobody does X" in the context of a game like this with a straight face when such a statement is most probably faulty (a vast player base, considerable variety in terms of play styles and preferences), and I can see no personal costs in abating the statement into the most likely uncontroversial "X is like to be rare" or something of the sort.

[Beheld]

I have no particular interest in you, no. I'm merely perplexed that anyone would make a sweeping statement like "nobody does X" in the context of a game like this with a straight face when such a statement is most probably faulty (a vast player base, considerable variety in terms of play styles and preferences), and I can see no personal costs in abating the statement into the most likely uncontroversial "X is like to be rare" or something of the sort.

So your official position is that hyperbole is a moral wrong that must be abolished?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So your official position is that hyperbole is a moral wrong that must be abolished?
...you're intentionally being ironic here, right?

[Zaq]

Basically, whether this matters or not depends on how likely you are to come across CLs greater than 25 in the first place.

If you don't generally encounter CLs of 26 or higher, this rule has pretty much absolutely no effect. 25 is high enough that there are few, if any, printed magic items (non-Epic, at least) that require CL that high, so it wouldn't even mean that you couldn't find magic items that you'd ordinarily encounter, and if no one in the party (and no one the party encounters) is turbocharging their CL, it's a distinction without a difference. It might make you apply a little bit of extra handwavium to explain setting-level magic effects (major teleportation networks, for example, or magical effects that are basically public works projects like floating cities or country-scale production/purification of water), but even in settings where those exist, they aren't generally statted out with a hard CL, so even that's not necessarily an issue.

If you DO routinely run into CLs that high, you'll at least notice the effect, but what effect it'll have depends on why you encounter CLs that high. If you're dealing with super-high CLs because you deal with Circle Magic and Greater Consumptive Field loops and other stuff like that (basically, if you have CL that's much higher than your character level), that basically just means that you have to invest less in your CL boosters before you hit diminishing returns (or rather, zero returns). You'll technically be less powerful than if you were allowed to run around with CL 40, but CL 25 is still high enough for most non-TO purposes, and you're still likely to have the highest CL around. However, if you're running an Epic game where CL is 25 because the people you're talking about are level 25 and higher? I feel like that would have other weird effects, but since I've never played in Epic, I'm not 100% certain what those effects would be.

It likely wouldn't do anything unless you routinely deal with those CLs anyway, though. If you capped it at, like, 10 or 12, that could have some bigger implications even if you tend to play in a low-level game (like making it hard/impossible to find printed magic items with high CL, like Sovereign Glue), but 25's high enough that it basically doesn't matter.

[noob]

That would make sr in function of HD a lot more powerful.(since monsters that have high HD that find a source of sr depending of HD will basically have immunity instead of being beaten by high cl people)

[ryu]

That would make sr in function of HD a lot more powerful.(since monsters that have high HD that find a source of sr depending of HD will basically have immunity instead of being beaten by high cl people)

Oh no. We have ways of bypassing CR without going above 25 CL. The easiest way is assay spell resistance, but that's not the only trick.

[noob]

You are loosing one casting of a quickened spell or one casting of celerity.
You have lost one action in the action advantage against that balor who got the right sr template and who spams celerity too.

[Waazraath]

It would make wilder 20 sad (assuming default psionic/magic rules), since it's main class feature is to increase CL (ML), up to 26 at lvl 20.

[Deophaun]

You can build an auto dispeller who auto succeeds, but you have to actually build that, you don't get it from just casting it
Step 1: Wizard/Sorcerer
Step 2: Take dweomer vortex at level 5/6.

Auto-dispeller complete.

[Beheld]

Step 1: Wizard/Sorcerer
Step 2: Take dweomer vortex at level 5/6.

Auto-dispeller complete.

Sometimes I wish people wouldn't quote me when they aren't talking to me or saying anything even remotely related to anything I said.

[Deophaun]

Sometimes I wish people wouldn't quote me when they aren't talking to me or saying anything even remotely related to anything I said.

You said that you needed to specifically build a caster that auto-succeeds at dispeling magic. I gave you a specific build that will auto-succeed at dispeling magic. You're welcome.

[ryu]

You are loosing one casting of a quickened spell or one casting of celerity.
You have lost one action in the action advantage against that balor who got the right sr template and who spams celerity too.

If we're at balor level the action economy has moved past celerity and quickenings and into crafted contingent spells and hoards of minions. One swift is not a relevant action expenditure at that point. That's if we're playing the action optimization game.

If we aren't the point is moot to begin with. Either way the SR is basically meaningless.

[Beheld]

You said that you needed to specifically build a caster that auto-succeeds at dispeling magic. I gave you a specific build that will auto-succeed at dispeling magic. You're welcome.

alskjdfh ash fdljkasdhfjkosadhfgjklashgfjlkashdgfijashdiouvjdsf ahioljkuasdjiasdhgkjladsnbfvlkjadsbjklfghasjkodvhn asdlkjdfghaskljhdfnbkljashdnflkmZSNfdmkasndflkmasn dfmkln,asnbdlkfmbnasldkmfnaslkmdfnasklmdnfkljmasnd fklmazsndfkjsandflkjasdnflashndfglkasndfgkjl;asdng fjkolzsndfkljasndgf.lkasjdfklmjnsadnvjlk;s

There, I just put a bunch of letters on the screen so you can rearrange them into whatever you want, since you clearly don't want to engage with anything I actually said, this can save us both the trouble.

[Grod_The_Giant]

alskjdfh ash fdljkasdhfjkosadhfgjklashgfjlkashdgfijashdiouvjdsf ahioljkuasdjiasdhgkjladsnbfvlkjadsbjklfghasjkodvhn asdlkjdfghaskljhdfnbkljashdnflkmZSNfdmkasndflkmasn dfmkln,asnbdlkfmbnasldkmfnaslkmdfnasklmdnfkljmasnd fklmazsndfkjsandflkjasdnflashndfglkasndfgkjl;asdng fjkolzsndfkljasndgf.lkasjdfklmjnsadnvjlk;s

There, I just put a bunch of letters on the screen so you can rearrange them into whatever you want, since you clearly don't want to engage with anything I actually said, this can save us both the trouble.
Dude... you made a statement, he gave a counterexample. That's totally engagement. To which your response could be something like "neat, I'd never seen that spell" or "cool spell, but too limited to really be useful," or something similar. If, you know, you're interested in polite dialogue.

[Beheld]

Dude... you made a statement, he gave a counterexample. That's totally engagement.

Except that... that is not at all what happened even a little bit.

What happened is that I said a bunch of things, that made super clear to even the dumbest human being alive that I wasn't asking for ****ing build or claiming that you can't make a dispel character, but that basic characters like monsters who have Greater dispel at will can't dispel your buffs at level 20, and then he decided to troll me because he thought it would be fun.

[dascarletm]

Except that... that is not at all what happened even a little bit.

What happened is that I said a bunch of things, that made super clear to even the dumbest human being alive that I wasn't asking for ****ing build or claiming that you can't make a dispel character, but that basic characters like monsters who have Greater dispel at will can't dispel your buffs at level 20, and then he decided to troll me because he thought it would be fun.

Have you tried ignoring things that cause stress?
I don't see that as trolling, if anything it's someone posting a thought. Not everything directed at you is an attack. :smallbiggrin:

[Deophaun]

Except that... that is not at all what happened even a little bit.

What happened is that I said a bunch of things, that made super clear to even the dumbest human being alive that I wasn't asking for ****ing build or claiming that you can't make a dispel character, but that basic characters like monsters who have Greater dispel at will can't dispel your buffs at level 20, and then he decided to troll me because he thought it would be fun.
No. You claimed that people had to go out of their way to build a dispelling character and I saw an opportunity to promote one of the three greatest overlooked spells of all time (the other two being dragoneye rune and undead eyes). And further, as this is a wizard/sorcerer spell, any monster that has the casting of a sixth-level sorcerer (like many dragons) can take it. So, who cares about greater dispel?

[Grod_The_Giant]

No. You claimed that people had to go out of their way to build a dispelling character and I saw an opportunity to promote one of the three greatest overlooked spells of all time (the other two being dragoneye rune and undead eyes). And further, as this is a wizard/sorcerer spell, any monster that has the casting of a sixth-level sorcerer (like many dragons) can take it. So, who cares about greater dispel?
Off-topic slightly: What's the benefit of dragoneye rune? Presumably it's the business with treating the marked creature as a familiar for Scrying spells, but I don't see how that's useful?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Step 1: Wizard/Sorcerer
Step 2: Take dweomer vortex at level 5/6.

Auto-dispeller complete.

That spell is going into my wizards' spell books from now on. That is vicious.

[Deophaun]

Off-topic slightly: What's the benefit of dragoneye rune? Presumably it's the business with treating the marked creature as a familiar for Scrying spells, but I don't see how that's useful?
That is useful. However, it's the ability to ping it twice a day to know the distance and direction. Further, you don't have to cast it on the person. You can cast it on a tiny piece of cloth and then slip that cloth onto the target.

So, you basically get to make a permanent GPS tracker with a single 2nd-level spell slot. If you don't know why that is awesome, you do not work for the CIA. :smallbiggrin:

[Beheld]

No. You claimed that people had to go out of their way to build a dispelling character and I saw an opportunity to promote one of the three greatest overlooked spells of all time

So you admit that you were posting something completely unrelated to what I said... Well then why did you deny that earlier?


So, who cares about greater dispel?

Anyone who understands the concept of a Targeted dispel or is familiar with the concept of 7th level spells at level 20 which is the level we were talking about?

[Deophaun]

So you admit that you were posting something completely unrelated to what I said... Well then why did you deny that earlier?
Interesting. You think a spell that requires no CL check to dispel something is unrelated to auto-dispelling.

Anyone who understands the concept of a Targeted dispel or is familiar with the concept of 7th level spells at level 20 which is the level we were talking about?
Dweomer vortex only works as a targeted dispel, and it works on 7th level spells. Read it carefully. It only stops after it has dispelled 6 levels. That means if you have a 5th and a 9th level buff, dweomer vortex will take both out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That is useful. However, it's the ability to ping it twice a day to know the distance and direction. Further, you don't have to cast it on the person. You can cast it on a tiny piece of cloth and then slip that cloth onto the target.

So, you basically get to make a permanent GPS tracker with a single 2nd-level spell slot. If you don't know why that is awesome, you do not work for the CIA. :smallbiggrin:
Aaah, gotcha. Very nice.

[Beheld]

Interesting. You think a spell that requires no CL check to dispel something is unrelated to auto-dispelling.

Because the DM making a character that is designed to dispel your buffs no matter what does not contradict my previous claim that DMs can do that, but that aside from DMs doing that, you are immune to the natural dispels of character not designed to do that.


Dweomer vortex only works as a targeted dispel, and it works on 7th level spells. Read it carefully. It only stops after it has dispelled 6 levels. That means if you have a 5th and a 9th level buff, dweomer vortex will take both out.

This is a level 20 character's buff suite:

Buff spells active:
Duration of more than 24 hours after resting and preparing spells:
Hoard Gullet
Create Magic Tattoo +1 CL version
Create Magic Tattoo +2 competence to Attack
Heart of Air
Heart of Water
Greater Magic Weapon (on Dagger)
Heart of Earth
Dragonsight
Heart of Fire
Greater Anticipate Teleport
Cloak of the the Sea
Superior Resistance
Detect Scrying
Mindblank
Elemental Body Fire
Elemental Body Water
Elemental Body Earth
Elemental Body Air
Non-Detection
Deeper Darkvision
Energy Immunity Acid
Energy Immunity Sonic
Energy Immunity Electricity

Duration less than that:
Ray Deflection
Greater Blink
Greater Heroism
True Seeing
As the Frost
Ironguard
Ghostform
Superior Invisibility
Veil of Undeath
Foresight
Shapechange
Greater Dimensional Jumper
Haste

Color me unimpressed with your "targeted Dispel."

[Gnorman]

Wait, but I thought that no one plays at level 20?

[Beheld]

Wait, but I thought that no one plays at level 20?

Yes... that is kind of the point. If you look at that buff suite you might come to some kind of understanding of part of the reason no one plays at 20th level.

[Gnorman]

Yes... that is kind of the point. If you look at that buff suite you might come to some kind of understanding of part of the reason no one plays at 20th level.

Oh, trust me, I understand. I don't generally play past level 6. I'm just trying to figure out why you would use that as a counterexample when you've stated in this thread previously that no one plays at that level anyway.

[Beheld]

Oh, trust me, I understand. I don't generally play past level 6. I'm just trying to figure out why you would use that as a counterexample when you've stated in this thread previously that no one plays at that level anyway.

Well since the thread is about effects of a CL 25 cap, the only thing to be said at all have to be about the levels where that might ever come up at all, as unlikely as they are to happen. Hence statements about Greater Dispels from monsters still having a 5% chance to dispel, where before they would have zero.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yes... that is kind of the point. If you look at that buff suite you might come to some kind of understanding of part of the reason no one plays at 20th level.
That's also a quite specific kind of level 20 play. Of the subset of groups that play at that sort of level, I imagine that they'd still skew fairly close to normal demographics: a small percentage going all-out cheesy (TO- ie, wish economies), a slightly larger group avoiding rules abuse but still going for all-out power (TO/PO boundary- ie, scry-and die tactics, huge lists of buff spells), a significantly larger group just sort of doing their thing (mid-op play- cast a few hour/level buffs in the morning most of the time, maybe another one or two before a fight; generally plays classes straight), and another decent-sized group who are just excited about meteor swarm.

[Deophaun]

Because the DM making a character that is designed to dispel your buffs no matter what does not contradict my previous claim that DMs can do that, but that aside from DMs doing that, you are immune to the natural dispels of character not designed to do that.
But the amount of effort to do so is the same amount of effort as giving someone dispel magic on their prepared spells. It's hardly taxing.

This is a level 20 character's buff suite:
Which is... extreme, but fine. Dweomer vortex can be cast beforehand, and, due to how it works, is eligible for Share Spells with a familiar. So, dweomer vortex+time stop can get rid of at least 24 levels. And, as this is a measly 3rd level spell, disposable mooks at that level can be casting it which, if a player is trying to stack as many buffs on his PC as possible, I consider fair game. See above: this isn't a tough thing for arcane casters to pull off.

[Beheld]

so, dweomer vortex+time stop can get rid of at least 24 levels.

nope. Nope. Nope.

[Deophaun]

nope. Nope. Nope.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Swift action -> Target dweomer vortex
Standard -> Cast time stop
Standard -> Cast dweomer vortex
Time stop lapses
Swift action -> Target dweomer vortex

[Gnorman]

nope. Nope. Nope.

Care to explain why not?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Swift action -> Target dweomer vortex
Standard -> Cast time stop
Standard -> Cast dweomer vortex
Time stop lapses
Swift action -> Target dweomer vortex

Nevermind the usual metamagic suspects. Twin and repeat anyone?

[Maxrim]

Getting back onto the OP's intended discussion (and away from [a] troll [Edit: Singular] that doesn't know how to have a meaningful conversation), I can speak as someone that routinely plays at epic level.
At lower level, it functions as a "Hey, leave off with the cheese" rule, like how I cap non-free, non-AoO actions per round at 30. That's fine.
At higher levels, it functions as a barrier without much purpose. The really powerful effects don't care much about caster level; it's the interesting effects that do care, so you want to be careful about that. If you want to keep the no-cheese function of the rule intact, you could scale it by level. For example, no CL greater than HD+10.

[ryu]

That spell is going into my wizards' spell books from now on. That is vicious.

Books? That's going in the wand I give my familiar to use next game with UMD! Holy gods that's like... the perfect candidate for that trick. Doesn't care about CL, has massive effects in the most difficult kinds of fights, and is something you could reliably want to cast repeatedly in combat.

[Deophaun]

That spell is going into my wizards' spell books from now on. That is vicious.


Books? That's going in the wand I give my familiar to use next game with UMD! Holy gods that's like... the perfect candidate for that trick. Doesn't care about CL, has massive effects in the most difficult kinds of fights, and is something you could reliably want to cast repeatedly in combat.

My work here is done. :smallwink:

[ryu]

My work here is done. :smallwink:

That's the fun thing about a wildly expansive system. you can even effect the play of experts and veterans if you show them some cool but obscure thing they haven't seen before. I'm literally having trouble thinking of a third level spell to have my familiar spam that would be more effective in caster fights and for many levels at that.

[Graypairofsocks]

Yes, 26 HD in FC I if I recall correctly. Quite a step down from the 37 he had in BoVD, especially considering the casting he had in that. Personally, I find the 36 HD version from dungeonscape to be the most strealined; especially with it including "The Last Word" and all that.

Is Dungeonscape a typo, or is there really a version of him from that book?

[ben-zayb]

Also off-topic, but I'm surprised a lot of people aren't aware of Dweomer Vortex. Aren't you guys familiar with this great thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13402.0)?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's the fun thing about a wildly expansive system. you can even effect the play of experts and veterans if you show them some cool but obscure thing they haven't seen before. I'm literally having trouble thinking of a third level spell to have my familiar spam that would be more effective in caster fights and for many levels at that.

Right. I mean, who actually looks in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade with any frequency?

[Jowgen]

Is Dungeonscape a typo, or is there really a version of him from that book?

Dungeon mag is what I meant to write. Dungeon Magazine issue 149 p. 56.

[Tvtyrant]

Books? That's going in the wand I give my familiar to use next game with UMD! Holy gods that's like... the perfect candidate for that trick. Doesn't care about CL, has massive effects in the most difficult kinds of fights, and is something you could reliably want to cast repeatedly in combat.

Wands? Wands?! That is going into my eternal wand or drow house signet. It is like the new Heart of Water...

[ryu]

Wands? Wands?! That is going into my eternal wand or drow house signet. It is like the new Heart of Water...

Yes wands. The entire point is to hand the wand to a familiar and share UMD ranks so it can spam the spell repeatedly in combat. It's the most useful tool available for fighting mages at level five and many levels after. Most brutal at level five though.