Melee capable Valor Bard

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

So I'm pondering one of my favorite classes, the Bard, and wondering how to best create a valor bard. The stickiest point for a bard I find is maintaining useful at-will damage while leveraging the full-caster side as you grow. It becomes a balancing act between various stats and desired feats.

One split is, are you going to wear light or medium armor?
Lets assume our bard is variant human with the Warcaster feat, since we want to be able to mix it up in melee with a shield. Our main stats are 16 DEX, 14 CON and 16 CHA.
If we chose light armor, then all our ASIs are likely to go to stats. We pick up DEX and CHA, eventually maxing both by level 16.

Light Valor Bard ends up with 17 (19 w/shield) AC, and an at-will attack action of 2d8+10.

If we use medium, then the Medium Armor Master feat becomes appealing. So we may take it at 4. Our max AC immediately jumps to 18/20! And we can max CHA just as fast, since 16 DEX is what we're using forever. But out at-will attack will stay permanently at 2d8+6, and the to-hit being a bit lower as well. By level 16, we actually have a spare ASI compared to the Light bard, as we aren't maxing DEX, so we can get more HP or another feat.

So tanky bard, or better DEX and all the fun that brings, such as increased at will damage, initiative, saves and skills. The choice depends on the party and campaign as well as character style. Are we doing support, almost like a pseudo cleric? Or a skilled operative?

[rtrnofdmax]

You seen the College of Swords? Very similar to Valor, but you can choose to be more offensive one turn, and more defensive the next.

[MaxWilson]

The best way to be a tanky Valor Bard is to leverage your Extra Attack and Expertise to be the Strongest Man in the world. To wit, you have advantage to attack prone enemies, and they have disadvantage to attack you, so your goal is to ensure that only prone enemies ever get to attack you. There are two ways to do this:

(1) Spend your first turn Pushing enemies prone at ridiculously high bonuses to Athletics (+8-12ish by 9th level depending on your Strength), then Grappling them with your free hand to prevent them from standing up. Then beat them to death on subsequent rounds, with help from the archers in your party.

Pro: takes no extra investment except Athletics Expertise.
Con: can't use a shield and a weapon while grappling somebody, so you have to give up either AC or damage (i.e. use a shield + improvised attacks or unarmed strikes).

(2) Take Athletics Expertise and the Shield Master feat. Whenever a monster tries to engage in you in melee, on your next turn, use your bonus action to Push him prone (again at a humongous bonus), your regular attacks to hit him twice, and then your movement to move 25' away. He'll lose half his movement standing up and so won't be able to get close enough to attack you on his next turn. He does get an opportunity attack on you when you move away, but it's at disadvantage so is unlikely to hit--and taking one opportunity attack at disadvantage is better than taking a full attack sequence on his next turn.

Of course, you can combine the approaches: take Shield Master, use your bonus action to knock him prone, hit him once with your weapon at advantage, sheathe your weapon and grapple him with your free hand to keep him prone.

Either road you go down, the Enhance Ability (Strength) spell may be of interest to you.

Either road you go down, Huge creatures will be a problem unless you Enlarge yourself, or just let someone else handle those creatures.

[BiPolar]

The best way to be a tanky Valor Bard is to leverage your Extra Attack and Expertise to be the Strongest Man in the world. To wit, you have advantage to attack prone enemies, and they have disadvantage to attack you, so your goal is to ensure that only prone enemies ever get to attack you. There are two ways to do this:

(1) Spend your first turn Pushing enemies prone at ridiculously high bonuses to Athletics (+8-12ish by 9th level depending on your Strength), then Grappling them with your free hand to prevent them from standing up. Then beat them to death on subsequent rounds, with help from the archers in your party.


Archers would be at disadvantage there. Enemy is prone.

[RickAllison]

Archers would be at disadvantage there. Enemy is prone.

Indeed. Only melee fighters within five feet get advantage. If you have a lot of ranged people, you actually might be helping them :smalltongue:

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

You seen the College of Swords? Very similar to Valor, but you can choose to be more offensive one turn, and more defensive the next.

That's in the SCAG? Or one of the UAs? I vaguely remember it second-hand. It's something like Combat Inspiration, but instead of Allies-only, it becomes Self-only, yes?

[RickAllison]

That's in the SCAG? Or one of the UAs? I vaguely remember it second-hand. It's something like Combat Inspiration, but instead of Allies-only, it becomes Self-only, yes?

Unearthed Arcana:

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf

(So you don't have to search, even!)

[MaxWilson]

Indeed. Only melee fighters within five feet get advantage. If you have a lot of ranged people, you actually might be helping them :smalltongue:

AFB but I believe anyone within 5' gets advantage, which for archers merely serves to cancel out the disadvantage for being at close range.

In an archer-heavy party what you probably want to do, instead of slamming the enemy prone, is to just hang on and Dodge while the archers do the killing. It leaves you exposed for a round but that's usually okay. My paladin does this in about 10% of fights, sometimes with a bonus action Sanctuary spell to make extra sure the enemy is helpless.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Unearthed Arcana:

http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf

(So you don't have to search, even!)

Thanks! Very similar to Valor bard, but you lose access to shields, longbows and heavy crossbows in exchange for two weapon fighting style, and get a limited version of Combat Inspiration:Self and an odd charm power.

[Jeebs]

One split is, are you going to wear light or medium armor?

My favorite way to build a Valor Bard is to start as a Fighter for CON saves and Heavy Armor proficiency. Most people say you don't miss the level 20 capstone, even if it is a bit of a pain to delay Extra Attack ANOTHER level.

[Biggstick]

Light Valor Bard ends up with 17 (19 w/shield) AC, and an at-will attack action of 2d8+10.

If we use medium, then the Medium Armor Master feat becomes appealing. So we may take it at 4. Our max AC immediately jumps to 18/20! And we can max CHA just as fast, since 16 DEX is what we're using forever. But out at-will attack will stay permanently at 2d8+6, and the to-hit being a bit lower as well. By level 16, we actually have a spare ASI compared to the Light bard, as we aren't maxing DEX, so we can get more HP or another feat.

So tanky bard, or better DEX and all the fun that brings, such as increased at will damage, initiative, saves and skills. The choice depends on the party and campaign as well as character style. Are we doing support, almost like a pseudo cleric? Or a skilled operative?

Personally, I think the tanky/support bard is a better option. You're not going to be able to match the at-will martial damage of the martial classes, but you do have the ability to step up as a secondary tank, or to take advantage of situations where melee is more useful. Embrace your caster-ness, hang back in the second line ready to tag out with the main tank (or to be a secondary target, keeping the squishies from getting targeted).

Also, slightly nit-picky on my part. having medium armor (half plate) and a shield will put you at 19 base AC, not 18. Taking medium armor master does make a 16 dex much more appealing though, for all the reasons you included above.

[RickAllison]

AFB but I believe anyone within 5' gets advantage, which for archers merely serves to cancel out the disadvantage for being at close range.

In an archer-heavy party what you probably want to do, instead of slamming the enemy prone, is to just hang on and Dodge while the archers do the killing. It leaves you exposed for a round but that's usually okay. My paladin does this in about 10% of fights, sometimes with a bonus action Sanctuary spell to make extra sure the enemy is helpless.

You are correct, it is any attack roll from five feet away.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Also, slightly nit-picky on my part. having medium armor (half plate) and a shield will put you at 19 base AC, not 18. Taking medium armor master does make a 16 dex much more appealing though, for all the reasons you included above.

By "18/20" I was referring to having Med. Armor master with 16 dex, AC being 18 without a shield, 20 with.

If one really wanted to focus on being a caster first, one could stick with 14 DEX and live with 1 less AC and disadvantage to stealth (Or 2 less AC), start with more CON possibly, and focus on maxing CHA even earlier.

[Tanarii]

Half-elf S 16 D 14 C 12 I 10 W 8 Ch 16

You can do Vuman instead. Drop the Cha to 14. Tradeoff is Cha +1 for a feat.

If you're going to go Sword & Board instead of a Greatsword/Longbow, you should swap Dex and Con. IMO Greatsword with Longbow at low levels, pumping Str/Cha and switching to Greatsword/Spells, is the way to go. Or you can just swap Dex & Con regardless of build and use magic for all ranged attacks right out the door.

A Dex-based Valor Bard is a wasted subclass. Dex is for Lore, not Valor.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

No shield, reduced AC, and low CON? Seems pretty dicey to me.

Edit: Dumping DEX and getting heavy armor might work better. But that makes things pretty scary until level 4 when you can take the feat. Or costs you a level to multi-classing, meaning no extra attack until 7th level.

[Tanarii]

It works fine so long as you don't try to be a front line tank all the time. It also helps to carry a shield as well for when you screw up and get hammered, I will admit. :)

Edit: Look at it this way. AC 15 (ie Dex 12, Con 14, no shield) is still better than what a Dex 16 Leather Armor bard starts with. Medium Armor alone mitigates the dropping of Dex, all the way down to 10 if you want to.

[miburo]

As a Valor Bard, getting Booming Blade (either through Magical Secrets or Magic Initiate feat) + Warcaster can be very useful. Cast Dissonant Whispers, make Booming Blade attack as the opponent runs away, and trigger a ton of damage in the process.