Masterwork appearance

[Britsky]

So my current character's shtick is essentially that he's a conman, all about bluff, disguise, acting etc..
I feel our DM is being a tad stingy with the gold, so am looking for more ways to make money in fitting with my character's nature.
So i was wondering, is it ever specified how a masterwork weapon might be distinguished from a normal weapon? Be it by looks, weight, texture or whatnot? Essentially I want to sell weapons to people and have them believe they are masterwork weapons. I expect a smith or a professional weapons dealer would be able to spot it pretty easily, but just a bog standard merchant who doesn't deal or even see weapons that often? (aided by a decent bluff roll of course) How feasible would it be to trick such a person?

And how hard would it be to make a weapon look masterworked if they do differ vastly?

Sorry if this has been asked before, it's my first time, be gentle...

[ComaVision]

To a bog standard merchant, with decent bluff and sweetening the deal with a "discount" it should work.





Just don't be surprised when the DM has the guards or mercs catch up with you.

[Britsky]

To a bog standard merchant, with decent bluff and sweetening the deal with a "discount" it should work.





Just don't be surprised when the DM has the guards or mercs catch up with you.

My plan for if I screwed up the bluff, or the merchant was too wise and called the guards over was to try to quickly turn it around and tell the guards "This charlatan sold me this piece of garbage saying it was masterwork, I demand a refund!" Or something along those lines.
Failing that, run.

[nyjastul69]

A succesull appraise skill roll is all that should be needed to identify it as a master work item.

[Telonius]

A succesull appraise skill roll is all that should be needed to identify it as a master work item.

Yeah, that's pretty much what Appraise was made for. Most merchants would probably have at least a few ranks in appraise, and get a bonus if they have 5 ranks in the craft skill in question (or are a dwarf, if it's a metal weapon).

I don't believe there are any specific skills used for creating counterfeit items that are more believable. I could see a DM having a character make a Craft (Fake) check - maybe a DC of half the original, otherwise you might as well just make a real masterwork item - or possibly a Disguise check (opposed by the merchant's Spot). Forgery probably wouldn't help, unless you're making a "Hattori Hanzo Blade" certificate to go along with it.

[ComaVision]

Forgery probably wouldn't help, unless you're making a "Hattori Hanzo Blade" certificate to go along with it.

Which is actually a pretty decent idea, a certificate of authenticity.

[Zaq]

It's worth mentioning that masterwork (but nonmagical) weapons are kind of in a weird spot as far as how expensive they are. They cost 300 gp more than the base price, right? 300 gp is a really awkward amount of money for this kind of escapade, and the reason for that is because it's pocket change to an adventurer but an absolute fortune to a commoner. The cost of a masterwork weapon will buy you three hundred goats (plus the base cost of the weapon). An untrained hireling earns 1 sp/day, meaning it would take them about eight years to save up that much money (if they didn't have any extra sources of income but also didn't have any noticeable expenses). Now, I understand that you're not selling to untrained hirelings, but if you're looking to deal with "bog-standard" merchants who don't typically traffic in masterwork weapons, you're dealing with people who have untrained hirelings for customers. The merchant is going to bring in more than 1 sp/day, but that's still the scale of money they're going to be working with.

Now, here's the rub. Masterwork weapons are crazy expensive for people who deal in low-grade stuff. But since they're the stepping stone to magic items, they're really common when you're dealing with people selling to adventurers (and dealing with adventurer levels of coin). Basically, any merchant who doesn't routinely buy and sell masterwork weapons is unlikely to have the cash on hand to buy a (fake) masterwork weapon from you, and they're also unlikely to have any regular customers capable of buying that weapon from them and allowing them to turn a profit. Anyone who DOES have the cash on hand to buy a masterwork weapon from you (and who's willing to do so in the hopes of turning a profit on it) is going to be dealing with masterwork weapons all the time, so they're going to be harder to fool. You're basically looking to hoodwink a very narrow market. If they don't "deal or even see weapons that often," they're probably not going to buy it from you anyway, since they aren't likely to be able to sell it for a profit.

Now, I mean, if your GM doesn't think this through quite as thoroughly, you might be able to make it work. But I feel like anyone who's going to actually buy a "masterwork" weapon from you is going to be sufficiently familiar with them that it'll take more than an amateur con job to hoodwink them.

[Doctor Despair]

Honestly, you'd be better off leveling some skills to fake artwork. That way you could make use of forgery and such, and no appraisal skill should be helpful here since there is no OBJECTIVE price for any given artwork.

[Duke of Urrel]

Honestly, you'd be better off leveling some skills to fake artwork. That way you could make use of forgery and such, and no appraisal skill should be helpful here since there is no OBJECTIVE price for any given artwork.

I agree with this, and I have even created my own house rules for fakery. Here they are.

*Creating Fakes

There are two kinds of fakes: cheap imitations and poor replicas.

*Cheap Imitations

A cheap imitation is an item that seems to be made of more expensive material than it actually contains. Creating a cheap imitation means using Alchemy Craft skill (or some other Craft skill involving some other category of material besides reactive chemicals) to make an ordinary item seem to be made of special materials. This trick has two steps.

• Firstly, make an ordinary item out of regular materials, using the appropriate Craft skill for this item.

• Secondly, use Alchemy Craft (or some other Craft skill involving some other category of material besides reactive chemicals) to make a masterwork component whose price is one-tenth of the special material you are trying to imitate. You add a synergy bonus of +2 to this check if you have at least five ranks of Forgery skill. The DC is 20.

Distinguishing an item made of special materials from a cheap imitation has an Appraise DC of 20.

*Poor Replicas

A poor replica is a low-quality item that seems to be of higher quality. Creating a poor replica of any kind requires the same Craft skill and the same materials as creating an original item. However, the Craft DC is usually much lower. Moreover, if you have an original to copy and at least five ranks in Forgery skill, you add a +2 synergy bonus to each Craft check you make to create a poor replica.

Usually, a poor replica looks like a masterwork item, but its masterwork component is fake. A fake masterwork component costs nothing and has a Craft DC lower than 20. Distinguishing fake masterwork from real masterwork has an Appraise check of 20.

A poor replica of an art object is usually both a low-quality item and a cheap imitation. It is a low-quality item because the Craft DC to make it is usually lower than the Craft DC of the original. It is a cheap imitation because it is usually made with materials that cost only one-tenth as those used to make the original, though this requires you to make an Alchemy Craft check (or some other Craft check involving some other category of material besides reactive chemicals) at DC 20 to complete the fake.

Distinguishing a poor replica from an art object of real value has an Appraise DC of 20.

Creating a poor replica of a magic item always requires you to cast the Magic Aura spell, so as to fool Divinations.

• Creating a fake magic shield, weapon, or suit of armor is the same as creating a poor replica of a non-magical masterwork item. If your poor replica is not real masterwork, its masterwork component costs nothing, but anyone can distinguish it from a real magic item by making an Appraise check at DC 20.

• Creating a fake magic potion requires you to have at least one rank in Spellcraft skill. The raw materials cost of a fake magic potion is only one-tenth that of a real one (that is, one-twentieth of its market price). You make a single Alchemy Craft check at DC is 10 plus the caster level of the potion to be faked. The Spellcraft DC to distinguish this fake from a real potion is always 20. When you make a Spellcraft check to identify a potion, this check doubles as a check to recognize a fake.

• Creating a poor replica of any other kind of magic item requires you to have at least one rank in Knowledge of Arcana. The raw materials cost of a fake magic rod, ring, staff, wand, artifact, or wondrous item is only one-tenth that of a real one (that is, one-twentieth of its market price). You make a Craft check as you would for an art object, but the Craft DC is 10 plus the caster level of the item to be faked. Then you make an Alchemy check at DC 20 to make your cheap materials look more expensive. The Knowledge of Arcana DC to distinguish this fake from a real magic item is also 20. When you make a Knowledge of Arcana check to identify a magic item, this check doubles as a check to recognize a fake.

For your consideration. Have fun!

[daremetoidareyo]

Which is actually a pretty decent idea, a certificate of authenticity.

With a guarantee for a refund, signed by the most famous blacksmith in the kingdom.

[Ashtagon]

This raises the question of what makes something valuable. In D&D there are three possible answers:

It is valuable because a famous person made it: This requires a few things to fake: Fist, you need to imitate the look of the famous master's works, you need to convince the buyer that it is indeed made by that famous master (possibly aided by a fake certificate of authenticity), and there needs to be an actual market for things because of who made them (rather than because of the objective quality).

This requires a suitable Craft check to make something of at least good quality in the first place. The fake certificate would require Forgery checks. Convincing the buyer would require Bluff vs. Sense Motive checks. How much value the 'brand name' adds is not really defined in the rules. If I were in a world-building mood, I'd probably define a few noted named swordsmiths, define their values, and let PCs' Bluff check substitute for a Craft check in some way to determine the 'fake value'.

It is valuable because of its mundane high performance (e.g., masterwork): There's really no way to fake masterwork that an Appraise check (or appropriate skill substituting for Appraise) couldn't detect. You could Bluff someone that lacked the Appraise ranks to know, but a person without enough skill to determine if something is masterwork or not is probably not going to be a viable customer in the first place (due to lack of funds). Even though Hattori Hanzo made masterwork blades, he could at least have easily made a mundane blade; brand name alone won't convince anyone that something is of masterwork quality.

It is valuable because of its magical high performance: In 3.5, Appraise will at least detect whether or not something is masterwork, which sets a minimum bar for magic weapon fakes. They'll certainly cast detect magic, and likely identify too if they have common sense. However, because identify costs 100 gold a pop, it won't be used on 'cheap' magic items. Equally though, a potion seller probably wants repeat business, and most probable customers are aware of the risk, so would likely go to a reliable seller. It's not by accident that temples have corned the CLW potion market.