Building a Rapier Dex Melee

[mrguymiah]

Long story short; my buddy got added to our level 5 game instead of our level 1 game and now I need to quickly build up his character to that level since session is tonight and he got called in for work. (For anyone worried about another player building his char, he'll be allowed to rebuild later, this is just so his lvl 1 character can play tonight.)

So, here's the jist of the character:
Kitsune Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade)
Str: 5 (-2)
Dex: 18 (+2)
Con: 10
Int: 16
Wis: 9
Charisma: 18 (+2)

The archetype gives him Finesse and Weapon Focus, allowing him to take Fencer's Grace at 1st level and add his dex to Damage instead. So, with the feat tax covered by the class, I'm wondering what to place his feats into. I've not built a Dex based anything before, but I'm pretty sure things like "Power Attack" wouldn't be optimal for him.

I'm contemplating spending the WBL on +1 Mithral Chain Shirt. Max AC with no penalty and some wiggle room on the max Dex bonus. Another option was to have his Signature Moves Rapier made magical to squeeze a bit more damage and to hit out of it, but I think the +11 and +6 damage are comfortable for level 5.

All advice is appreciated here.

[Florian]

Uh! Don´t drop STR that hard. His Kitsune can´t even carry his own equipment then and one hit to STR (spell, poison) will have him keel over.

[dascarletm]

Take deadly agility.

I also wouldn't drop str so hard. If you can get a 13, power attack really helps up your damage.

[Geddy2112]

I would have a magic weapon at level 5, as you start to encounter a lot of DR/magic at this level. Maybe even make it mithral or cold iron to further bypass DR.

Power attack requires 13 strength, and the finesse version, piranha strike, only works with light weapons. Once you can take it, you want swift kitsune shapechanging so you can qualify for vulpine pounce at level 10. This allows you to full round attack on the charge, and look like a BAMF when you do.

Improved initiative is never bad, and you might consider toughness since your con is only 10. Skill focus(knowledge) to unlock eldritch heritage(arcane) will get you a familiar, and then an improved one with improved familiar. Dodge/mobility/spring attack is not bad if you plan to dart around combat, lunge is also thematic and useful to this end. With a negative wis modifier and a low will save already, you might want iron will and improved, as well as magic items to sure this up. In a similar vein, save your charmed life for things targeting your will. Quick draw works with your swashbuckler's initative, so worth considering. Combat reflexes is always solid for any character with high dex, and gives you bonuses uses of parry/riposte.

[mrguymiah]

Uh! Don´t drop STR that hard. His Kitsune can´t even carry his own equipment then and one hit to STR (spell, poison) will have him keel over.

Point taken, but the DM isn't tracking carrying capacity and such.


Take deadly agility.

I also wouldn't drop str so hard. If you can get a 13, power attack really helps up your damage.

Isn't Deadly Agility just Fencer's Grace? (Dex to Damage instead of Strength)?

The thing is that He's already got 3 stats to boost up; Dex, Int, and Cha. Dex because of his combat stuff, and then Int and Cha are both used by his class features. At high enough level, he gets both Cha and Int to AC, as well as adding them to hit. Something's gotta get dropped to afford that.

[dascarletm]

Point taken, but the DM isn't tracking carrying capacity and such.



Isn't Deadly Agility just Fencer's Grace? (Dex to Damage instead of Strength)?

The thing is that He's already got 3 stats to boost up; Dex, Int, and Cha. Dex because of his combat stuff, and then Int and Cha are both used by his class features. At high enough level, he gets both Cha and Int to AC, as well as adding them to hit. Something's gotta get dropped to afford that.

... yes. My mistake.

Are you using point buy or did you roll for stats?

[mrguymiah]

I would have a magic weapon at level 5, as you start to encounter a lot of DR/magic at this level. Maybe even make it mithral or cold iron to further bypass DR.

Power attack requires 13 strength, and the finesse version, piranha strike, only works with light weapons. Once you can take it, you want swift kitsune shapechanging so you can qualify for vulpine pounce at level 10. This allows you to full round attack on the charge, and look like a BAMF when you do.

Improved initiative is never bad, and you might consider toughness since your con is only 10. Skill focus(knowledge) to unlock eldritch heritage(arcane) will get you a familiar, and then an improved one with improved familiar. Dodge/mobility/spring attack is not bad if you plan to dart around combat, lunge is also thematic and useful to this end. With a negative wis modifier and a low will save already, you might want iron will and improved, as well as magic items to sure this up. In a similar vein, save your charmed life for things targeting your will. Quick draw works with your swashbuckler's initative, so worth considering. Combat reflexes is always solid for any character with high dex, and gives you bonuses uses of parry/riposte.

Good idea with the Vulpine Pounce! As for Toughness, we're using the Wound and Vigor alternate rules. So we don't add our Con every level. I'll double check how Toughness works with these rules. As for the familiar, that's a nice thing to know, but we've already got 7 players. Adding more bodies to the field might bog things down. I'll defintiely look into that Dodge chain. Shoring up his will save is definitely something to look into. Right! Thank you for reminding me about Quick Draw and CR. We'd been talking abou that the other day, actually.


... yes. My mistake.

Are you using point buy or did you roll for stats?

25 point buy

[Geddy2112]

Point taken, but the DM isn't tracking carrying capacity and such.

Isn't Deadly Agility just Fencer's Grace? (Dex to Damage instead of Strength)?

The thing is that He's already got 3 stats to boost up; Dex, Int, and Cha. Dex because of his combat stuff, and then Int and Cha are both used by his class features. At high enough level, he gets both Cha and Int to AC, as well as adding them to hit. Something's gotta get dropped to afford that.

Even without carrying capacity tracking, a hit to strength could paralyze you. I don't see how you get int to AC, and adding cha to AC requires using dodging panache. You could signature deed that if you really want.

I would probably tone intelligence down an bit, and make your strength at least 6 and wisdom a 10. A 14 is still going to have your rolling in panache, skill points, and inspired strike, without crippling your build in other areas. Failing a will save is bad news bears, you need every bit of mental defense you can get, lest you be used against your own party.

[dascarletm]

I did this with 25 point buy.
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 16

[Florian]

Point taken, but the DM isn't tracking carrying capacity and such.

It´s still rather embarrassing when a very basic level 1 spell, Touch of Enfeeblement, can make a character keel over. Same problem as with some overenthusiastic wizard or rogue builds.

[mrguymiah]

Even without carrying capacity tracking, a hit to strength could paralyze you. I don't see how you get int to AC, and adding cha to AC requires using dodging panache. You could signature deed that if you really want.

I would probably tone intelligence down an bit, and make your strength at least 6 and wisdom a 10. A 14 is still going to have your rolling in panache, skill points, and inspired strike, without crippling your build in other areas. Failing a will save is bad news bears, you need every bit of mental defense you can get, lest you be used against your own party.

Duelist Prestige class is how you do it. Canny Defense adds 1 point of int mod to AC per level in it. It stacks with his current build and gets bonuses from the int.


It´s still rather embarrassing when a very basic level 1 spell, Touch of Enfeeblement, can make a character keel over. Same problem as with some overenthusiastic wizard or rogue builds.

Fair point. I'm going to look into rebalancing the stats to boost it a little.

[Geddy2112]

Duelist Prestige class is how you do it. Canny Defense adds 1 point of int mod to AC per level in it. It stacks with his current build and gets bonuses from the int.
Oh yeah, I should have figured you would go duelist. Which requires you to have dodge and mobility anyways.

I did this with 25 point buy.
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 16
I like this stat arry, mainly cause you have full BAB and lots of other ways to juice your attack roll. If you add power attack on vupline pounce you will outright murder everything you touch.

If you end up needing to be a party face, realistic likeness is an incredible social feat depending on the game and party needs.

[mrguymiah]

Oh yeah, I should have figured you would go duelist.

I like this stat arry, mainly cause you have full BAB and lots of other ways to juice your attack roll. If you add power attack on vupline pounce you will outright murder everything you touch.

If you end up needing to be a party face, realistic likeness is an incredible social feat depending on the game and party needs.

While I acknowledge the need to boost Strength out of the "you're in danger of enfeeblement" zone, I still don't see why to go Power Attack when there are dex based alternatives? He currently doesn't use Strength for anything but his CMD (which reminds me to go look for that dex based "i slither out of people's grips" feat.)

[dascarletm]

While I acknowledge the need to boost Strength out of the "you're in danger of enfeeblement" zone, I still don't see why to go Power Attack when there are dex based alternatives? He currently doesn't use Strength for anything but his CMD (which reminds me to go look for that dex based "i slither out of people's grips" feat.)

I mean, if you can get your DM to houserule piranha strike as working with rapiers then do that. Otherwise PA damage doesn't hurt.

[Geddy2112]

While I acknowledge the need to boost Strength out of the "you're in danger of enfeeblement" zone, I still don't see why to go Power Attack when there are dex based alternatives? He currently doesn't use Strength for anything but his CMD (which reminds me to go look for that dex based "i slither out of people's grips" feat.)

Piranha strike won't work on a rapier because it is not a light weapon, so there are no other alternatives for the rapier unfortunately. Agile maneuvers adds your dex to your CMB instead of strength, your other option would be maxing escape artist. At higher levels, make the party caster put freedom of movement on you.

[mrguymiah]

Piranha strike won't work on a rapier because it is not a light weapon, so there are no other alternatives for the rapier unfortunately. Agile maneuvers adds your dex to your CMB instead of strength, your other option would be maxing escape artist. At higher levels, make the party caster put freedom of movement on you.


I mean, if you can get your DM to houserule piranha strike as working with rapiers then do that. Otherwise PA damage doesn't hurt.

An alternative, then; Use the Weapon Master's Handbook (Paizo) to build a Rapier that is a light weapon? It'll be mroe expensive, but it'd solve the problem, no? I'm going to look into that option before deciding that we need to radically change his point buy.

(If you didn't know, the Weapon Master's Handbook is a nice book that revamps the Fighter Class and gives a whole bunch of new options for melee in general. It also gives rules for custom weapons.)

[Geddy2112]

An alternative, then; Use the Weapon Master's Handbook (Paizo) to build a Rapier that is a light weapon? It'll be mroe expensive, but it'd solve the problem, no? I'm going to look into that option before deciding that we need to radically change his point buy.

(If you didn't know, the Weapon Master's Handbook is a nice book that revamps the Fighter Class and gives a whole bunch of new options for melee in general. It also gives rules for custom weapons.)
Yeah if you can forge a light rapier, then get piranha strike and call it a day.

[NightbringerGGZ]

The custom weapon rules won't let you get a weapon that's close to the Rapier, they really overpriced crit range and modifier increases.

If you really don't want to go with Power Attack, spend 2500 gp on Effortless Lace. Wrap the lace around the rapier's hilt and it will count as a light weapon for Piranha Strike.

[mrguymiah]

The custom weapon rules won't let you get a weapon that's close to the Rapier, they really overpriced crit range and modifier increases.

If you really don't want to go with Power Attack, spend 2500 gp on Effortless Lace. Wrap the lace around the rapier's hilt and it will count as a light weapon for Piranha Strike.

I noticed as much, unfortunately. However, thank you for reminding me of the lace!

[dascarletm]

I actually made an elf inspired blade swashbuckler a while back. Here it is, feel free to critique and/or use whatever you want. I never know what to take for the last 2 feats.

Elf (Forlorn and Elven Arrogance: – racial subs)

Stats:
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 14

Feats:
1. Weapon Finesse
1. Weapon Focus (Rapier)
1. Fencing Grace
1. Skill Focus (TBD)
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Power Attack
5. Antagonize
7. Signature Deed (Opportune Parry and Riposte)
8. Step-Up
9. Critical Focus
11. Critical Versatility
12. Impaling Critical
13. Staggering Critical
15. Stunning Critical
16. Critical Mastery
17. Improved Impaling Critical
19.
20.

Traits and skills to suit the campaign

[Kurald Galain]

The archetype gives him Finesse and Weapon Focus, allowing him to take Fencer's Grace at 1st level and add his dex to Damage instead. So, with the feat tax covered by the class, I'm wondering what to place his feats into. I've not built a Dex based anything before, but I'm pretty sure things like "Power Attack" wouldn't be optimal for him.

You are correct. Power Attack is generally unnecessary on classes that already have a damage boost (such as the swashbuckler's Precise Strike).

Furthermore, 13 str is wasted on a dex-based class. While I agree that str 5 may be a bit too low, I wouldn't go higher than 8 on a dex class. You can deal with carrying capacity via a bag of holding or pack mule, and otherwise str does basically nothing for you - whereas a higher charisma will boost your Dodging Panache and let you use Parry & Riposte more often (and remember that PA's penalty would also apply to Parry).

Spend your feats on versatility or defense, not damage. Once he's got fencing grace, the swashy really has no problem dealing damage.

[Seward]

I'm contemplating spending the WBL on +1 Mithral Chain Shirt. Max AC with no penalty and some wiggle room on the max Dex bonus. Another option was to have his Signature Moves Rapier made magical to squeeze a bit more damage and to hit out of it, but I think the +11 and +6 damage are comfortable for level 5.

All advice is appreciated here.

If your dex isn't likely to get to 22 in the range you are playing, Darkcloth Lamellar Armor is only 810gp, to mithril chain shirt's 1100gp. Enough to sneak in another masterwork weapon or something.

So at level 5, your damage benchmark is a 2-handed weapon fighter with strength similar to your dex, power attacking.
That's 2d6+7+6 = about 20 damage/round. Many builds will exceed that, but this is the range of meaningful damage at level 5 that you should be thinking about. So 1d6+6 isn't especially good (it's about half what the 2-hander does). A typical TWF build will also do about 20/round at level 5 (both do a lot more at L6 with the iterative attack(s) but so will you).

Your swashbuckler will also be doing +5 precision damage at level 5 on most enemies (1d6+6+5 = 14.5) which is better and is much of the reason swashbucklers get that damage bonus. You'll also have improved crit several levels ahead of "generic 2h fighter guy) on a good crit range weapon. That brings your average damage up about 15%, but it's the sort of thing where if you can find another way to add damage, it would be nice, since you're behind a mid-range damage dealer (on rounds where you manage an opportune parry/riposte you'll more than make up the damage, but your archetype only recovers panache on a crit, so you will need to hit enemies about 4 times before you make up the panache you burn by getting in an extra attack).

Basically swashbucklers have decent burst damage until they run out of panache, then they fall behind without some kind of feat help. Piranha Strike is power attack for dex-folks but it doesn't work with a rapier, so it's off the table for you.

The only way you could power attack with your strength is to take 2 levels of ranger (or slayer I guess and take ranger combat style) choosing 2 handed weapon style (ironic, since you never fight 2-handed but mechanically it works). If you were a halfling (or count as one somehow) you would have access to the risky striker feat, which is like power attack except it lowers AC instead of attack mod. Your other options boil down to weapon spec, or investing more than the usual wealth by level into your weapon.

You might do well to spend some of your cash on things that raise panache, because you'll be fine as long as you can burn panache when the fight is dangerous.

Also your strength is so low you will need Ant Haul on 24x7 unless you want to just fight with mage armor instead of a mithril shirt. You can't wear armor with a total strength dump, and even the 1lb for each magic item like cloak of resistance or belt of dex adds up fast. I've played a halfling dex-tank with str 5 to level 12, and she calculates her burden in 1/8 of a pound increments, carrying nothing but the absolute essentials. OTOH, she fights best naked anyway (among other things, she's got monk and savage barbarian bonuses to AC) so that wasn't an issue for her. A swashbuckler really needs enough str to carry her armor.

In many ways, swashbucklers like having 13 strength. It's a lot easier to stay in light load, and you can just take power attack once your BAB is 4 or higher, where it starts becoming both worthwhile and more important. Still that's going to cost you somewhere else important, so it is a matter of whether you're skilled enough as a player to get the most out of your panache-based damage boosts when needed, and build back the panache in the "easy" combats, while managing your load to cope with lower strength. 13 str is kind of the "lazy" approach to a swashbuckler - like using a stock car from the factory in a race instead of tuning it up yourself and keeping it in peak racing performance.

[Florian]

Raaargh! The Precision Damage mechanic on the Swashbuckler is something I could get mad about every time I read it. High crit is necessary to regain Panache and you don´t actually get the best out of it because precision ain´t multiplied by a crit.
That´s pretty much why I prefer the TWFing Rondelero Swashbuckler archetype right now, supplementing it with the Killer trait, Power Attack and Bashing Finish.

[Magentawolf]

I actually made an elf inspired blade swashbuckler a while back. Here it is, feel free to critique and/or use whatever you want. I never know what to take for the last 2 feats.

Elf (Forlorn and Elven Arrogance: – racial subs)

Stats:
Str 13
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 14

Feats:
1. Weapon Finesse
1. Weapon Focus (Rapier)
1. Fencing Grace
1. Skill Focus (TBD)
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Power Attack
5. Antagonize
7. Signature Deed (Opportune Parry and Riposte)
8. Step-Up
9. Critical Focus
11. Critical Versatility
12. Impaling Critical
13. Staggering Critical
15. Stunning Critical
16. Critical Mastery
17. Improved Impaling Critical
19.
20.

Traits and skills to suit the campaign


Signature Deed doesn't work with Parry / Riposte - The text calls out that it's not eligible for panache reductions.

[dascarletm]

Signature Deed doesn't work with Parry / Riposte - The text calls out that it's not eligible for panache reductions.

Ah right good call on that. I'll have to switch it out for something else. Thanks.