How do Souls get to the Afterlife?

[Ruethgar]

Is there a particular creature that planeshifts them, is it by deific direction, is it just natural? What if you are in a place that most creatures can't reach or see into without Alter Reality or Wish? Would you still move on if you are outside the multiverse of planes?

Looking for book info here, not homebrew. If it is left unspecified, that's fine, but if it is stated, I may need to make a new creature/god to ferry souls.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've looked into such matters in the past. To the best of my knowledge, how souls get to the afterlife is left deliberately undescribed except in the ghostwalk setting.

The description of what a vestige is and the descriptions of many of the listed vestiges lead me to believe that souls that leave the plane they are on but cannot reach the proper outer plane they belong on become vestiges. This comes from tome of magic.

That's pretty much all I've got on this particular subject.

[IcarusWulfe]

If I remember the Planar Handbook correctly, it says that souls pass through the Astral plane to get to their respective afterlife, but thats about it.

[Luch Ri]

It's up to you. I can give you my sort of 'reasoning and order of operations' if you wish as potential inspiration but it's up to the DM in the end as to how it works, if they choose to define it at all.

For me though, it's very simple. A soul, when they die, is naturally pulled from the 'center point' Prime material plain by it's alignment towards an outer plain. Basically it is the bias of the soul that causes it to push away from and be pulled towards it's final reward. It would thus phase though the Astral plain, perhaps drift though other plains or demiplains along the way as a DM might see fit for story reasons, and wind up where it is supposed to be as part of the natural cycle.

For me I rule the process as rather quick, though not instantaneous. The reason for the time limits has to do with a spirit having ties to it's physical body... and the condition of the body naturally.

Also the difficulty in recalling the afterlife is also easily explained. There are no equivalent neural connections to translate what little information the soul might retain on a round trip to fully and properly express what it has experienced. Even if you've been there before. It's very different being there as a spirit without the mortal baggage and limitations.

That is my way of doing it, but by no means the only one. Just a bit of an exmaple.

[Psyren]

Complete Divine goes into this in great detail ("What Happens After You Die," pgs. 125-126.) I'd pretty much quote the whole thing if I could get away with it, but if you have that book it should answer your question.

[daremetoidareyo]

Complete Divine goes into this in great detail ("What Happens After You Die," pgs. 125-126.) I'd pretty much quote the whole thing if I could get away with it, but if you have that book it should answer your question.

That was a great source. But it is a bit weak on the "transit" side of things. You die. You get 6-12 seconds to hang around, get your soul coat, etc. And then you appear on the outer planes...unless you become an undead. Also, apparently farlagn and vecna have final resting places on the prime material planes? WHAT ARE THEY UP TO?

The only known way to get to the outer planes is via the astral, or a gate...but transit in the astral is...risky. You know if there was a way to capitalize a river of souls sourcing from the prime material planes, some outerplanar creature would use it to both power and fuel his soul-crushing mill, which he then turns into a soul food to, in part, bribe the githyanki bandits who raid his little operation.

But is it instantaneous teleporting to the outerplane, or is there a transit path?

And

How do we exploit that using RAW?

[SwordChucks]

How do we exploit that using RAW?

How about a ghost touch enchanted turnstile built in the astral plane of the site of a large battle. All the souls going through the turnstile power a....thing.

That's kinda where I run out of ideas.

[Psyren]

That was a great source. But it is a bit weak on the "transit" side of things. You die. You get 6-12 seconds to hang around, get your soul coat, etc. And then you appear on the outer planes...unless you become an undead. Also, apparently farlagn and vecna have final resting places on the prime material planes? WHAT ARE THEY UP TO?

The only known way to get to the outer planes is via the astral, or a gate...but transit in the astral is...risky. You know if there was a way to capitalize a river of souls sourcing from the prime material planes, some outerplanar creature would use it to both power and fuel his soul-crushing mill, which he then turns into a soul food to, in part, bribe the githyanki bandits who raid his little operation.

But is it instantaneous teleporting to the outerplane, or is there a transit path?

And

How do we exploit that using RAW?

It's possible that one-off souls here and there could potentially get diverted/exploited on rare occasions. But I doubt any large-scale efforts to mess with the soul transit would be successful - this is pretty much where Death deities step in and make sure nobody is harassing you until you get to your final judgment, and they are almost always Major deities. Wee Jas is likely to take a very dim view of interlopers messing around with recently-deceased souls, and we know for a fact that Kelemvor and Pharasma do too. Worse, portfolio sense means they would detect your efforts to do so months before you even come up with the idea.

[Luch Ri]

I would say check out 'Magic of Incarnum' as that is a good quarter of the book...

But everyone around here seems very fixated on RAW and the like based on my scant few hours here and so I don't know that most people have or would enjoy that book the way I do. it has you messing around with souls in tons of different fun ways, and I am pretty positive it has many ways to mess with that, monsters that eat souls, rules on using souls and... yeah. It MIGHT be worth it to you to check out if you are more willing to be flexible in your games.

[Crake]

Wouldn't the exactitudes vary heavily from setting to setting?

[daremetoidareyo]

I would say check out 'Magic of Incarnum' as that is a good quarter of the book...

But everyone around here seems very fixated on RAW and the like based on my scant few hours here and so I don't know that most people have or would enjoy that book the way I do. it has you messing around with souls in tons of different fun ways, and I am pretty positive it has many ways to mess with that, monsters that eat souls, rules on using souls and... yeah. It MIGHT be worth it to you to check out if you are more willing to be flexible in your games.

Stick around, and RAW will become your one true god as well. ;)

I'm only halfseriouslyjoking.

OP asked for official descriptions.

[Luch Ri]

Stick around, and RAW will become your one true god as well. ;)

I'm only halfseriouslyjoking.

OP asked for official descriptions.

Heh I am WAY too far off the reservatin to go back to RAW at this point. Homebrew for life.

But yeah, Incarnum does technically have an official description... quite a lengthy one in fact. That is, as I said, much of the book. Talking about souls going back though the Astral realm in detail, incarnum zombies, the soulstuff you are basically pulling out of the Aether to imprint on to you as melds and all of that.

Even if there was not the obvious issue of lifting whole sections from a book in terms of throwing out copyrighted material, it would probably make for one huge and boring to read post for anyone not heavily into the minutia of these things.

[Ruethgar]

So what I'm seeing is there is a lot of before and after and use of souls but not a lot of how they get there. I ask because I have a character making a world inside an unchained non-dimensional space so Planeshifting out would be fine, but anything trying to get in would need a wish or to alter reality.

Does anyone have any information on Ravenloft and Dark Sun afterlives? They may provide greater insight, being two worlds sealed off from most other planes, but the books are harder to find.

[Florian]

So what I'm seeing is there is a lot of before and after and use of souls but not a lot of how they get there. I ask because I have a character making a world inside an unchained non-dimensional space so Planeshifting out would be fine, but anything trying to get in would need a wish or to alter reality.

Does anyone have any information on Ravenloft and Dark Sun afterlives? They may provide greater insight, being two worlds sealed off from most other planes, but the books are harder to find.

I think the answer has always been that it´s not the souls doing anything, they are simply pulled to their final destination by the planes themselves, like a form of spiritual gravity.
The more advanced version of that are settings with a Court and Judgement going on, then this does the whole pulling, sorting and sending.
Raven loft uses a point-by-point basis, in that the Dark Powers might or might not chose to interfere in the whole process.

[Ruethgar]

The world is currently E6 and has small gods(as from the 3rd party book Spells and Spellcraft which get nothing but the ability to grant spells of a certain level depending on how many followers they have). Arcanis Magnum the God of Magic: Wizard/Spell Sovereign, Earth Mother Goddess of the Elements: Sha'ir/Evangelist/Mystic Theurge, Forest Father God of the Wild Places: Druid/Landforged Walker.

And now for Death. Whether or not souls can pass normally out of that place, there should be a goddess of death. I'm thinking of making her a supreme leader of Necropolitan and Bone Creature Soul Reapers(a variant wizard). Soul Reapers can make familiars out of several souls bound together and when dismissed/die explicitly go back to the afterlife. This means Death should get all three leaderships. Welknair's Noble Bloodline covers the normal one, if she is an undead awakened cat she can snag the Web Undead at 3rd and then Mortis Undead at 6th. A Deathwalker is the most obvious choice for class for the ability to control class level x5 skeletons and zombies with a charisma check.

Awakened Cat Savage Species Ritual Necropolitan
Major Noble 3/Focused Specialist Skeletal Minion Deathwalker 6
Poor Fortitude: Precocious Apprentice
Haunted: God Touched
Cat: Weapon Finesse
First: Divine Channeller
Third: Extra Turning
Sixth: Web Undead Leadership
Seventh: Leadership
Ninth: Mortis Undead Leadership

Mortis/Leadership Score: 20=6 lvl+6 Natural Leader+4 Cha+2 Undead+2 Stronghold+2 Renown(because Death)+1 Fairness-1 Aloof-1 Moves-1 Death of Followers
Web Leadership: 7*18=9 HD+4 Cha+2 Spells+2 Stronghold+2 Renown(because Death)-1 Moves
Deathwalker: 45HD minions

375 first level, 29 second, 15 third, 10 fourth, 4 fifth, 3 seventh=429 Soul Reapers is a good start before bonus feats like Extra Followers. Then the three cohorts can be more Kitty Web Leader Landlords and 3 more Kitty Web Leaders lvl 5 plus Deaths 5th level follower. And we'll stop the chain there because ridiculous.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't the exactitudes vary heavily from setting to setting?

Definitely - the passages I linked assume Greyhawk, but obviously Faerun and Eberron have completely different ways of handling this.


I would say check out 'Magic of Incarnum' as that is a good quarter of the book...

But everyone around here seems very fixated on RAW and the like based on my scant few hours here and so I don't know that most people have or would enjoy that book the way I do. it has you messing around with souls in tons of different fun ways, and I am pretty positive it has many ways to mess with that, monsters that eat souls, rules on using souls and... yeah. It MIGHT be worth it to you to check out if you are more willing to be flexible in your games.

OP specifically asked for RAW-only responses which is why I pointed him to a WotC source exclusively.

Note that other settings can modify this and still be RAW though. For example, Eberron has no deity of death and all the souls go to Dolurrh. Outsiders probably have more freedom to intervene in the soul traffic there, and in fact getting annihilated to create a magic item may be a better fate for the soul than where they were going in that setting.


So what I'm seeing is there is a lot of before and after and use of souls but not a lot of how they get there. I ask because I have a character making a world inside an unchained non-dimensional space so Planeshifting out would be fine, but anything trying to get in would need a wish or to alter reality.

What matters most here is your setting. No matter what self-contained world your character creates for instance, they probably wouldn't be able to keep Wee Jas from getting souls out.

[Ruethgar]

What matters most here is your setting. No matter what self-contained world your character creates for instance, they probably wouldn't be able to keep Wee Jas from getting souls out.

Wee Jas can sense the death or use of magic in the world but can't communicate or see the area without altering reality or wishing herself there. I'm not sure if she has alter reality and I'm not sure she would waste resources(even paltry Wish/Gate) on reaching it. Of course the ability to ferry souls having no RAW workings beyond "your soul appears on a new plane after a few rounds" makes it difficult to determine the mechanics. Either way, the above death cat will make sure they make it out.

[Toilet Cobra]

Heh I am WAY too far off the reservatin to go back to RAW at this point. Homebrew for life.

Hah! Amen, brother. Making up stuff about the afterlife is one of my favorite parts of worldbuilding.

[Psyren]

Wee Jas can sense the death or use of magic in the world but can't communicate or see the area without altering reality or wishing herself there. I'm not sure if she has alter reality and I'm not sure she would waste resources(even paltry Wish/Gate) on reaching it. Of course the ability to ferry souls having no RAW workings beyond "your soul appears on a new plane after a few rounds" makes it difficult to determine the mechanics. Either way, the above death cat will make sure they make it out.

She has Alter Reality; in addition, you're talking about her portfolio here. If folks die in that pocket universe and their souls can't reach the afterlife, it's reasonable to expect that she'd get involved. Also, she wouldn't have to wish herself there - isn't the concern the souls being able to leave it and get where they're going?

[Ruethgar]

Hah! Amen, brother. Making up stuff about the afterlife is one of my favorite parts of worldbuilding.
Funny thing is, the aforementioned death cat would be the only cats, and the only non-humanoid mammals, in the entire world. So seeing a cat would mean that a lot of people are probably about to die.


She has Alter Reality; in addition, you're talking about her portfolio here. If folks die in that pocket universe and their souls can't reach the afterlife, it's reasonable to expect that she'd get involved. Also, she wouldn't have to wish herself there - isn't the concern the souls being able to leave it and get where they're going?

She could sense the deaths, but she couldn't see around the deaths with remote viewing(and presumably other powers) because while it can cross planes, it doesn't cross dimensions. And with the cats torturing the souls by packaging them up into familiars and sending them on their way they would be getting through to the afterlife all the same.

Also, because there are no restrictions on ethereal travel there, one could presume that, at the very least, they could turn into ghosts with the purpose of moving on and travel the ethereal to reach the afterlife... doesn't the ethereal connect to the astral, shadow, and material or just shadow and material? Better not make a wrong turn hehe.

[Psyren]

while it can cross planes, it doesn't cross dimensions.

I'm pretty sure D&D uses these terms interchangeably. MotP:

"planes are new worlds, alternate realities, and other dimensions that may exist just next door to the places that the characters are already comfortable with."

"Demiplanes: This catch-all category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access."

"Borders allow movement between the planes in a smooth, almost uneventful manner. Travelers may not be aware of the boundary and slip unaware over a planar border into a new dimension."

And so on.



And with the cats torturing the souls by packaging them up into familiars and sending them on their way they would be getting through to the afterlife all the same.

Ah, well that's a different matter. If the souls can get home eventually and are just diverted temporarily I don't see that being a problem for her. Kelemvor or Pharasma might take issue with the "torture" part of that though - they aren't just guides, they are judges, and so punishment before trial wouldn't sit well with them even for a soul that deserves it. For one that doesn't, you could very well expect retribution from powerful creatures or members of their churches.



Also, because there are no restrictions on ethereal travel there, one could presume that, at the very least, they could turn into ghosts with the purpose of moving on and travel the ethereal to reach the afterlife... doesn't the ethereal connect to the astral, shadow, and material or just shadow and material? Better not make a wrong turn hehe.

Ghosts are in fact souls that can't move on due to unfulfilled purpose, excessive trauma or both. So that wouldn't be an escape route for most. Ethereal can connect to other planes through its "shimmering curtains" but this is implied to be rare and such portals appear to be initiated from the destination plane rather than the Ethereal itself.

[Luch Ri]

OP specifically asked for RAW-only responses which is why I pointed him to a WotC source exclusively.

Note that other settings can modify this and still be RAW though. For example, Eberron has no deity of death and all the souls go to Dolurrh. Outsiders probably have more freedom to intervene in the soul traffic there, and in fact getting annihilated to create a magic item may be a better fate for the soul than where they were going in that setting.


Magic of Incarnum is, technically, a base WotC supplement. Just like Psionics. It's a rule set for a new magic system. That system just has to deal with souls, talks about souls more than space wolves talk about wolves, and isn't very popular because it is complicated and considered under-powered as I understand it. That's mainly why I brought it up, but with a sort of implied asterisk. There is no way to sum up what it says about souls and the afterlife in it because it has whole huge sections devoted in part or in full to that as it relates to the mechanic. But it is also a new mechanic people have criticized since it came out for various problems... not the least of which obviously being the power level on it's own or lack of support for the mechanic.

[Elderand]

So you want to get to the afterlife hey? I don't know why you'd bother, I mean the place has revolving door all over it. Oh sure peasants and such they get stuck but your basid adventuring type he might as well get frequent flier miles for the thing.

Anyhow, you'll want to take the A17 headed for the astral, but I'd wait a week first, I mean we are in full on war season right now so you just now the whole thing's gonna be backed up farther than squid's ass. So you get on the A17 down to the astral, from there you make a left at the plane of shadow. A left, if you make a right you'll end up as one of those shamblin horror and nobody wants to have you eat the grankid's brain while your unmentionables fall down rottin on the floor. It's not proper.

Now after you make a left you'll be free to enjoy the scenery for a couple hundred miles. Don't stare too much at the eldritch abominations you may come accross. They don't really care mind you but you'll go cross eyed if you look too hard. So after a few hundred miles you'll be reachin the outer planes.

So I don't know what kind of guy or gal you were in life but you'll probably end up getting exactly what you deserve somewhere. I sure hope you didn't fall for this whole evil schtick some of them have goin on because the lower planes, well, it's less sexy succubus and more crawled over by a lemure if you catch my meaning.

[Ruethgar]

I'm pretty sure D&D uses these terms interchangeably. MotP:

Ah, well that's a different matter. If the souls can get home eventually and are just diverted temporarily I don't see that being a problem for her. Kelemvor or Pharasma might take issue with the "torture" part of that though - they aren't just guides, they are judges, and so punishment before trial wouldn't sit well with them even for a soul that deserves it. For one that doesn't, you could very well expect retribution from powerful creatures or members of their churches.

Ghosts are in fact souls that can't move on due to unfulfilled purpose, excessive trauma or both. So that wouldn't be an escape route for most. Ethereal can connect to other planes through its "shimmering curtains" but this is implied to be rare and such portals appear to be initiated from the destination plane rather than the Ethereal itself.

While it may be interchangeable in other places, here it is "an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”)" so it is outside of all planes, not a part of one nor one itself.

Maybe I could add in a little ambrosia farm then? Some way to induce exquisite joy to go along with their tortured existence? Though the only way I know how to do that is shuffle/reform/retrain for Masochism and Symbol of Pain them without going to BoEF. I suppose the release to the afterlife could cause them joy enough for ambrosia.

It was hard to find a mechanic for gathering souls at all without destroying them, using massive quantities of gems, or a dark altar so those gods will have to deal with the method being a little harsh. I suppose there is also that special material that steals souls, but that would be more of a proactive "reapers kill you" as opposed to a reactive "reapers shove your disembodied soul into a little package and send you to the afterlife."

If the ghosts' unfulfilled purposes are moving on to the afterlife because they are unable otherwise is what I was going for. But the Ethereal not connecting to the Astral except via shimmering curtains is an issue that makes that kind of a moot point. I suppose I could have the Jaunter craft a one way portal in the Ethereal to another plane and the reapers just shove all the souls through. That way ghosts could still go regardless of the spiritual pull after death or lack there-of because of potentially wonky extra-dimensional spiritual anomalies.


So you want to get to the afterlife hey? I don't know why you'd bother, I mean the place has revolving door all over it. Oh sure peasants and such they get stuck but your basid adventuring type he might as well get frequent flier miles for the thing... [funny stuff].

The cat's will hold onto PC classed people for a little bit longer so they can just go straight back... or play with them... or plot hook for your friend's soul... who knows with a cat god of death, they may just ask you for tuna in exchange for a free res.

Edit: Took a closer look at the Spells and Spelcraft Small Gods as relates to the ones I've written up. Each of them can only support 15 divine casters except the god of the forest who gets 63... because more druids is always better. If bloodline levels are associated, then the cat and co get bumped up to 63, and forest gets 127. Would make divine casters very rare unless the world remained very small(which it would without true deific power to expand it).

Beast God added. Ritually added Lycan(Small Constrictor and Eagle) to an Awakened Lizard(after classes) stuck in double hybrid form for a lovely Snake/Lizard/Bird to haunt your nightmares. Fish don't get a god, they get eaten and dragons don't need one.