What two tier 5 classes, when gestalted produce a tier 3?

[daremetoidareyo]

It's all in the title, yo.

Tier Ascension through gestalt. What are the best combos. Which ones begin over-powered and then slowly weaken. Which ones are surprisingly good.

Tier 5
Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, Soulborn
Tier 6
CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

[Extra Anchovies]

Paladin//Expert: the A-Game Paladin (https://web.archive.org/web/20140205010310/http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376), now with more skill points and a good Will save.

Rokugan Ninja//Monk would be pretty neat - full BAB, full sneak attack, AC bonus that scales to 9+Wis, and the various neat things available via monk ACFs (wall walker, invisible fist, etc) - if it weren't for the incompatible alignments. Monk//Sneak Attack Fighter is slightly worse, but only slightly.

The line between T3 and T4 is incredibly fuzzy, but both of those combinations would be functional in most games.

[Zancloufer]

A Paladin//Healer actually has some synergy IMHO. By chassis you have a solid 2 good saves, full BaB 10 HD and 4+ skill points. They also both gain spells based off Wisdom, and benefit from charisma. I think they might be the closest to tier 4 as well.

What get's really good though is the mount/companion. Technically they are separate class features so you can have both, but there is nothing saying that the healer's companion can't also be the Paladin's Companion. Adding the benefits from both tables actually net's you a solid companion that scales with your level.

By level 18 you'd have an 18 HD unicorn with +16 Natural Armour, +6 Strength, +2 Dex/Int +20 Movement (80ft/Round!) SR 41 (might as well be SR : Nope at that level). The sharing of spells, saving throws, Link etc don't stack, though the spell sharing helps overcome that SR. Assuming it's the 4 HD unicorn. The numbers later on imply that, but the text does say the Celestial Unicorn. Celestial Charger Unicorn Mount with HD bonus stacking alone would make the class Tier 1 (Level 21 Cleric Mount at level 18!). Also might get a DMG to the face.

Also you can cast Gate, that's a pretty good spell.

Plus you could probably have one code of conduct for both classes so that's one downside that doesn't get multiplied.

[eggynack]

Healer's kinda like a tier 3 already, if you use sanctified spells. As was noted, a paladin's also kinda like a tier 3 already, if you use stuff like sword of the arcane order. They could each fall into tier 4, but gestalting them would probably get you to 3. Just a really solid allotment of casting. Sure, you're a bit active/active, but the goal here is serious versatility.

[dextercorvia]

Swashbuckler//CAdvNinja gets your d10 HD, 6 skill points from a good list, good fort and reflex saves. Sudden strike lets you self qualify for Daring Outlaw giving you a full progression of Sneak attack with your Sudden strike.

[Troacctid]

Healer isn't T5, so it shouldn't be in consideration.

I do notice Soulborn is missing from the list in the OP, though.

[T.G. Oskar]

I could try to write up why Paladin||Knight is, while not exactly Tier 3, at least a pretty solid option, but I did that already (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17162683&postcount=12), so might as well link it. I can resume, though - provides decent Charisma synergy, much needed feats for a class that starves, makes Mounted Combat easier to follow (don't need as many feats), and also enables other potential builds such as Lockdown (via Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender, though you still need the Int 13 + Combat Expertise + Imp. Trip or high Dex + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still). There's also other ruminations on exactly that, and the whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336337-The-Z-Team-Tier-5-Gestalt) is good to figure which could turn out to be great builds (pay attention to Seerow's post in the same thread, which singles out Swash||Ninja, Soulborn||Monk and Fighter||Knight alongside Paladin||Healer).

[Cerefel]

Monks have a lot of things that are almost good, but not good enough to rely on, while also having to work past the craptastic chassis they're on while they're supposed to be a front line melee. Putting them together with most full BAB classes like Fighter or Swashbuckler gives monk builds some breathing room to be able to take some feats to make the character genuinely useful instead of just barely decent. Throw on Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to be able to boost skills and it actually ends up pretty similar to rogue at a mid to high T4 or better.

[nedz]

Fighter // Expert perhaps ?

Full BAB with a bucket of Feats and a bucket of Skills.

The question is: do you need spells for T3 ?
This combo has everything else.

[Gnorman]

Fighter // Expert perhaps ?

Full BAB with a bucket of Feats and a bucket of Skills.

The question is: do you need spells for T3 ?
This combo has everything else.

I feel like some kind of spell or spell analogue (powers, vestiges, maneuvers, etc.) is required to achieve the level of versatility considered to be T3. I can't really think of any counterexamples, but I'm open to them.

[Thurbane]

Paladin//Expert?

Paladin can be fairly solid with enough optimization. Throw some UMD, Iaijutsu Focus and other skills into the mix, might edge into Tier 3. Good Will save doesn't hurt, either.

[nedz]

I feel like some kind of spell or spell analogue (powers, vestiges, maneuvers, etc.) is required to achieve the level of versatility considered to be T3. I can't really think of any counterexamples, but I'm open to them.

I view these as just different magic systems - YMMV.

[dextercorvia]

I feel like some kind of spell or spell analogue (powers, vestiges, maneuvers, etc.) is required to achieve the level of versatility considered to be T3. I can't really think of any counterexamples, but I'm open to them.


I view these as just different magic systems - YMMV.

I feel like skills could be brought up to the level of one of those systems, but it would take some work.

[nedz]

I feel like skills could be brought up to the level of one of those systems, but it would take some work.

Well UMD exists, but that's just a short cut into spells.

Stealth skills can beat magical stealth - but it does require a DM to permit that (by providing terrain / cover etc.).

High OP skills (Diplomancy etc.) can sometimes achieve spectacular results - but they take a lot of work and are situational.

Things like Perform can do stuff, but only with further class features.

And then we have Epic skill usage - but they rarely happen.

[dextercorvia]

Right. I think that if a character class had all skills maxed out as a class feature, that would come pretty close to the versatility of T3, but they might need some bonuses even then.

[Coidzor]

I feel like skills could be brought up to the level of one of those systems, but it would take some work.

Something building upon skill unlocks from PF unchained and rituals from UA could work. Maybe even cribbing some ideas from saner portions of truenaming?

[GreyBlack]

JUDGE!

There is no way that Paladin is below T4 under any definition. Paladin is a solid one-trick pony. It is also an excellent chassis for entering a wide variety of PrCs, making it eminently splashable.

[nedz]

Right. I think that if a character class had all skills maxed out as a class feature, that would come pretty close to the versatility of T3, but they might need some bonuses even then.

I'm not sure all skills are necessary but certainly quite a lot; and you need skill mastery to make them reliable.

[Hurnn]

Paladin, monk with the right feat, you can be less MAD and would just have stupid saves, 1/2 casting, full bab, and a mountain of class abilities sure some aren't great but it has to be over a dozen.

[Dread_Head]

Paladin // CAdv Ninja (with the Serenity feat).

Two good saves, d10 HD, 6+int skills, solidly wis based abilities, sudden strike, ninja abilities, spells. It provides a capable character who can contribute solidly in combat and has a bunch of out of combat utility. It obviously improves with feats such as Sword of the Arcane Order, Battle Blessing, Craven, Initiate of Baravar Cloakshadow (for Swift Invis to trigger Sudden Strike). Also ACFs such as Shadow Cloak Knight or Mystic Fire Knight are a big help but not truly necessary.

[Amphetryon]

CW Samurai//CA Ninja makes a surprisingly versatile pairing. Though lacking a true dump stat, this pairing functions perfectly well on a Human chassis with 10 STR and 10 INT, provided all other Stats are 12+. Between Kiai Smite and Sudden Strike, damage isn't a big concern through most levels. The combination has good lockdown capabilities paired with a good Skill set and d10 HD. Options that add WIS or CHA to damage (or Skills to which these Stats don't normally apply) only increase the combination's functionality.

[Spore]

CRB Fighter/Rogues are honestly better than their reputation.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This combo has everything else.
Except for class features.

[Soranar]

Drow Fighter // CA Ninja

With hand crossbow focus + Crossbow sniper you get a DEX based skillmonkey with a ton of feats to fuel your combat style (in this case crossbow archery). Considering Fighter lets you take both those feats at level 1, you don't have to wait long before the combo comes on. Combine this fight Zhentarim fighter ACF and you get several useful options in and out of combat, many different movement modes and a way to capitalize on those movements (sniping from 60 ft away, with full BAB and d10 hitpoints is a lot safer then from 30 ft with d6). A weapon crystal lets you ignore the crit immunity of the most common crit immune type (undead) and your base damage is large enough to be able to contribute even when you can't sudden strike something.

Kung fu genius monk// Swashbuckler

This combo is only ok at first , d10 hitpoints, all good saves, the focus on DEX and INT makes gives you a lot of skillpoints, again you have access to a lot of movements modes.

What makes it shine is the eventual feat combinations: martial study+ martial stance+ daring rogue gives you a full sneak attack progression

Combine this with the monk ACF that grants you invisibility every 3 rounds and you're in business. For extra oomph, shadow blade also works with unarmed strikes, letting you ignore STR altogether (and you get weapon finesse for free from Swashbuckler anyway). I recommend the swashbuckler ACF instead of grace as every little bit helps.


all I can think of for now

[nedz]

Except for class features.

The Monk has class features, and the Sorcerer doesn't. Class features are a bit variable, at least you can choose not to pick poor feats and useless skills.