Ancient Fantasy that feels really old

[Yora]

I saw an interesting article about how the old Star Wars movies (and to a good degree also the most recent) really feel like they are tales of an ancient past and not of a distant future. While their technology is superior to us in some ways, it's also very crude and even primitive looking in others. The most powerful weapon for ground combat is a huge robotic war elephant. Yes, they have the ability to build these giant vehicles that we can't build, but they use it to replicate something really old instead of using the new potential of the technology. And while they shot with blasters instead of shoting bullets, the weapons are all based on iconic World War 2 guns. And of course we got knights and counts having sword fights.
We see "advanced technology", but we feel "archaic and primitive".

The same should work just as well with a medievalesque fantasy world. What concepts would you associate with a world that existed hundreds of thousands or perhaps milions of years ago, even though people are living mostly like in the 14th or 16th century (or whatever historic period you want)?

Obvious Item #1: Giant reptiles. Today reptiles are small, millions of years ago they were huge.

Another thing that always works great for me are volcanos. I don't think volcanos were any more common a million or ten million years ago than they are now (the world is 4,500,000,000 years old after all), but pretty much any decent depiction of the prehistoric ages has volcanos in them and now the image of a volcano is a standard symbol to mean "prehistoric".

And regardless of technological development, bronze looks more ancient than iron. Bronze armor and bronze helms feel a lot older than iron ones.

Oh, and also ziggurats. And pyramids.

[VoxRationis]

Well, in the vein of Star Wars, I'd expect chariots to be common, even though rideable horses abound.

[Yora]

Inhuman gods and sacrifices also come to mind.

[razorback]

Well, in the vein of Star Wars, I'd expect chariots to be common, even though rideable horses abound.

Isn't that what podracing is? Chariot racing with new tech?

[kraftcheese]

Well, in the vein of Star Wars, I'd expect chariots to be common, even though rideable horses abound.

Chariots definitely make something feel Ancient World; they were used in combat because of the lack of stirrups, weren't they? I mean, without stirrups, you try and lance someone from a moving horse and you're gonna have a Bad Time

[avr]

Not just giant reptiles. There's all kinds of giant animals which are extinct today, from wooly mammoths to giant birds to sabre-toothed tigers. All say 'ancient'.

Placing the setting somewhere known that no longer exists works too. On what is now the Mediterranean seabed for example - there's another current thread in this subforum where someone's writing up their version of Atlantis, and Julian May did something similar with his books a couple of decades back.

Slaves are obviously more recent than medieval times, but making them a big part of the world says 'ancient' to many people. Similarly with galleys.

Just changing the decor works if you use it right. Togas and sandals may have been used elsewhere but they say 'Roman'.

[raygun goth]

Chariots definitely make something feel Ancient World; they were used in combat because of the lack of stirrups, weren't they? I mean, without stirrups, you try and lance someone from a moving horse and you're gonna have a Bad Time

The upshot of a chariot is that you can stick several dudes on it or transport materiel. The usual tactic was to use the chariot to stay out of range of enemies so your firing line was constantly moving. If you try to lance anyone from a horse even with stirrups you're going to have a bad time - the most common weapons used from stirrup equipped horses were swords.

Equatorial environments feel ancient - jungles, deserts, and tropical seas.

A lot of what we equate to "ancient" assumptions is based primarily on our culture - we're obssessed with Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians, so things we assume they had feel ancient. We don't particularly associate things like automatic doors, sunglasses, condoms, and government subsidized chicken farms for meat and eggs with the ancient world, but there it is.

For me, those giant volcanic pillars in China feel pretty ancient, as does any kind of stone wall - like Spanish star forts feel older to me than big square castles.

Another thing for me is the slang. Calling a hovering truck a "mule" or referring to a starship as a "rig" or "boat" can give things a different feel - like calling a horse a "land vector" and a spear a "wound inductor."

[VoxRationis]

Chariots definitely make something feel Ancient World; they were used in combat because of the lack of stirrups, weren't they? I mean, without stirrups, you try and lance someone from a moving horse and you're gonna have a Bad Time

Actually, it's not so much about the stirrups (you aren't lancing anyone from a chariot either) so much as not having horses large enough to comfortably bear a man's weight. Horses, like all domestic animals, have been bred for many years to be better at the tasks we use them for. Early in our technological development, we hadn't accomplished quite so many years of breeding and the horses thus couldn't hold a person very well. But with a chariot, you could shift the weight onto an axle and just have the horse provide motive force—and if that wasn't enough, you could yoke two or more horses to one cart. People actually did use lances before stirrups were around—they used to strap the lance to the saddle or something to brace it against the horse—but it wasn't quite so effective.

[kraftcheese]

The upshot of a chariot is that you can stick several dudes on it or transport materiel. The usual tactic was to use the chariot to stay out of range of enemies so your firing line was constantly moving. If you try to lance anyone from a horse even with stirrups you're going to have a bad time - the most common weapons used from stirrup equipped horses were swords.

Equatorial environments feel ancient - jungles, deserts, and tropical seas.

A lot of what we equate to "ancient" assumptions is based primarily on our culture - we're obssessed with Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians, so things we assume they had feel ancient. We don't particularly associate things like automatic doors, sunglasses, condoms, and government subsidized chicken farms for meat and eggs with the ancient world, but there it is.

For me, those giant volcanic pillars in China feel pretty ancient, as does any kind of stone wall - like Spanish star forts feel older to me than big square castles.

Another thing for me is the slang. Calling a hovering truck a "mule" or referring to a starship as a "rig" or "boat" can give things a different feel - like calling a horse a "land vector" and a spear a "wound inductor."
Like a driver and someone with a bow/spear thrower? I'd imagine it would be a lot easier to fire/throw accurately from a flat surface with less training than a mounted archer.

And I agree that, mostly in the West, we see the ancient world as the few ancient societies our historians have focussed on: I think there's some really interesting equatorial based societies like the Khmer Empire and a lot of the South American cultures, etc. (even though the Khmer Empire, Incas, etc survived and thrived into the "Middle Ages"), that feel very ancient, I guess because they seem very different to ancient/Medieval societies we usually learn about a school?

And the language used to discuss objects, activities, etc. ABSOLUTELY influences how ancient/new something aeems; I completely agree.


Actually, it's not so much about the stirrups (you aren't lancing anyone from a chariot either) so much as not having horses large enough to comfortably bear a man's weight. Horses, like all domestic animals, have been bred for many years to be better at the tasks we use them for. Early in our technological development, we hadn't accomplished quite so many years of breeding and the horses thus couldn't hold a person very well. But with a chariot, you could shift the weight onto an axle and just have the horse provide motive force—and if that wasn't enough, you could yoke two or more horses to one cart. People actually did use lances before stirrups were around—they used to strap the lance to the saddle or something to brace it against the horse—but it wasn't quite so effective.

Really? Wow; I mean I knew that some groups used quite small, pony-like horses (especially in East Asia, Mongolian horses); I never thought of horse size factoring into mounted combat, but it makes a lot of sense!

Do you know what kind of cultures used the lances mounted onto saddles; it sounds like a really interesting solution to stabilising the big damn spear haha!

[raygun goth]

Like a driver and someone with a bow/spear thrower? I'd imagine it would be a lot easier to fire/throw accurately from a flat surface with less training than a mounted archer.

I was assuming that there were bowmen involved. Sorry if that didn't seem like I meant that - charioteers with crossbowmen aboard were basically doomsday weapons for a long time.

[VoxRationis]

Do you know what kind of cultures used the lances mounted onto saddles; it sounds like a really interesting solution to stabilising the big damn spear haha!

"Haha?"
I believe the trick was used by cataphracts of the Near East prior to the introduction of stirrups.

[Yora]

Slaves are obviously more recent than medieval times, but making them a big part of the world says 'ancient' to many people. Similarly with galleys.

Yeah, this is pretty much an exercise in exploiting anachronisms and orientalism. Historical accuracy and realism don't really factor in here. It's all about triggering emotions and atmosphere.

Something that also always screams ancient to me is people making pilgrimages to consult an oracle. The closest thing you get in medieval fantasy is people secretly visiting a crazy witch in a forest because it's vital to their social standing that nobody learns that they have dealing with such characters.
Having a big temple in a holy place where powerful people come to recieve wisdom from the gods is a very different thing.

Also cool is using human and animal skulls for decoration. That's just not something "civilized people" do.

[EscherEnigma]

Also cool is using human and animal skulls for decoration. That's just not something "civilized people" do.
The Sedlec Ossuary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary), a Roman Catholic chapel in the Czech Republic, disagrees. Check out the wiki page on ossuaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossuary) for more examples of European bone-decorations, which weren't understood in the time/culture to be desecration and was often part of the way they practiced their religion.

[raygun goth]

The Sedlec Ossuary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary), a Roman Catholic chapel in the Czech Republic, disagrees. Check out the wiki page on ossuaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossuary) for more examples of European bone-decorations, which weren't understood in the time/culture to be desecration and was often part of the way they practiced their religion.

Which is why it feels ancient.

Because we're looking from the outside.

[TripleD]

Quickest way to ancient feeling is to re fluff the metals. Describe everything as being made of bronze or copper.

Also reduce the number of cities. Make civilization feel like some bold new experiment.

[Tvtyrant]

In efficient practices. Gardening by hand instead of plowing, open air stalls and artisans instead of shops, beggers everywhere, very little clothing due to not having mass fiber production, etc.

[Yora]

Ooohh.. That sounds like a really great way to create a lot of small details that all point towards a somewhat primitive society. Basically the reverse of Flintstones tech. It's what I mentioned with Star Wars using laser swords and robot war elephants."Inefficient practice" is exactly the paradigm that creates these enjoyable anachronisms in a culture that has all the means to be already much more advanced.

[jqavins]

For me, those giant volcanic pillars in China feel pretty ancient, as does any kind of stone wall - like Spanish star forts feel older to me than big square castles.
It's interesting that it should feel that way. In fact, star forts are much more recent and were a big advance in fort design that arose in response to cannon.


Obvious Item #1: Giant reptiles. Today reptiles are small, millions of years ago they were huge.


Not just giant reptiles. There's all kinds of giant animals which are extinct today, from wooly mammoths to giant birds to sabre-toothed tigers. All say 'ancient'.
And even more giant things. The whole giant flora and fauna of the carboniferous period.

[Sam113097]

Maybe it's because some of the most prominent ancient civilizations were native to desert regions, (Egypt, Persia, Israel) but I associate buildings made of sandstone with ancient times. Think of the pyramids, Solomon's temple, or Al Kheznah (the Holy Grail temple from Indiana Jones). They just look different from typical medieval castles.

Many ancient societies has wrathful, but not all powerful, gods.

[raygun goth]

It's interesting that it should feel that way. In fact, star forts are much more recent and were a big advance in fort design that arose in response to cannon.

I am fully aware, I grew up with grandparents who lived in St. Augustine and we've got one there - honestly, I think that might be why. It's really the first thing I saw as a very young child that was actually old and broken down.

[Nicodiemus]

Also consider mediums of information storage and also the means of barter/exchange. Papyrus or vellum, or even pictography/hieroglyphics. Chiseling important events onto stone tablets. Currency was a major civilization advance, but paper notes were not widely used until fairly recently.

Architecture- thatch roofs, sod houses or houses built into natural hills and cliff faces.

[VoxRationis]

Architecture- thatch roofs, sod houses or houses built into natural hills and cliff faces.

Or alternatively, go the opposite route and make everything (or at least everything important) extravagantly large, but showing signs of a lack of architectural sophistication—slanted walls, narrow gaps between columns, corbels instead of true arches, etc.

[LudicSavant]

It's interesting that it should feel that way. In fact, star forts are much more recent and were a big advance in fort design that arose in response to cannon.

In some of my own settings, star forts arose in response to magic's wall-breaching potential. :smallsmile:

[Yora]

For my own setting I am going with a paradigm of "could be better" for all aspects of the world. Everything is either somewhat unfinished or showing considerable wear. Either case, nothing is ever in peak shape or reaching its full potential. It's always flawed.
It's part of a bigger philosophy behind the themes of the setting, but I think there's a certain element of timelessness to it. There's simultaneously a perpetual progress and a perpetual decline which keep the world in an eternal limbo where things are good-ish and sufficient, but never great. Things are getting lost, but people are never really able to replace them.