Conversion rate for earned XP from Gold?

[Tanarii]

I'm thinking about switching from XP for defeating enemies, to XP earned for gold. This is for a retro-style campaign I'm running. I want the XP earned rate to be about the same without increasing the amount of gold. The goal is to bring back something missing from dungeon delves: The incentive to overcome the challenge by whatever means, not just by combat. The goal shifts directly to earning gold for all purposes, in-game and meta.

One problem is players don't earn gold at the same rate as XP. It comes considerably slower. By level 4 a player should expect about 200 gp ... and will have 2700 xp. I'm tentatively looking at a conversion rate of 1xp earned per 25 gp retrieved.

Anything else anyone can think of that I need to cover if I'm going this route?

[MaxWilson]

Old-style campaigns didn't NOT grant XP for killing, they just didn't grant very much. I just started a campaign where the XP requirements are 10x normal. First session was solo due to schedule conflicts (i.e. one DM + one player) and the lone first-level PC:

1.) Fought off a couple of guards and a wicked nobleman from molesting a girl from his village (he wants to be a Folk Hero and this is his origin story), and then went looking for her younger siblings who had run off during the fight, found them treed by an owl bear, and then got mauled to death by the owl bear, thus saving the kids because the owlbear was no longer hungry after eating the PC. Many years later the girl named her son Nox in favor of the boy from her village who had doubly saved her. The End.

We had enough time left that he wanted another shot, so I ran the same scenario over again, and this time:

2.) He tackled the nobleman and guards in a slightly different and more effective way, and ditto for the owlbear. This time he survived, tied the nobleman naked to a roof to embarrass him, took the girl home, and left home to seek his fortune. First-level PC gained 775 XP from monster-slaying (700 from owlbear + 25 each from 2 Guards + 0th level punk nobleman) and 1000 XP for saving the girl and her siblings. That leaves him partway to second level (3000 XP), whereas vanilla 5E would have him already at 3rd level by now, partyway to 4th (2700 XP). I like this slower pace a lot and so does he--it means that I can actually give him 1000 XP as a bonus without him suddenly developing superpowers.

So anyway, I'd say you should consider just following OD&D rules: IIRC, give 1 XP per gp of treasure recovered. (Or was it sp? But let's keep it pegged to gp.) Then inflate XP requirements enough that that amount of XP isn't problematic. 10x is good and results in XP tables that feel more familiar/"realistic". 20th level is four million XP instead of 400,000, and killing a Tarrasque will no longer boost you by seven levels.

[Tanarii]

Good point on the rewards for defeating creatures still existing. I realized I should actually go look at the 1e rules if I'm going to do this.

AD&D had the following rule for xp (DMG page 84-85):
1xp for 1gp removed from dungeon/lair and transformed into a transportable medium or stored in the player's stronghold. Sold magic items count, kept ones don't.
XP rewards for defeating creatures from 20 (1HD) to 900 (10 HD) to 5000 (20HD) each, with bonuses for special abilities multiplying that significantly.
If the enemy was weaker than the players (total HD enemy / total HD players < 1) lower the reward by that fraction.

Roughly speaking, 10 AD&D 1e XP appears to be worth about 1 D&D 5e XP. But the amount awarded is about 1/30th. So that means that I'd want about 1/3 of the XP to come from creatures for a level, and 2/3 from treasure. Again, roughly.

That means I need to hand out something like 10 xp/gp until level 5, and 3 xp/gp up to 10. And divide creature rewards by 3.

[Sigreid]

Not trying to derail you, but XP in 5e is, I believe, for over coming a challenge. Not necessarily killing it.

[shadow_archmagi]

Not trying to derail you, but XP in 5e is, I believe, for over coming a challenge. Not necessarily killing it.

That still encourages players to seek out arbitrary challenges. The idea of XP for Gold is to get the players to feel comfortable saying "The Spider Caves? Why would we WANT to go there? Let's make an executive decision to never go into the Spider Caves." Would you give your PCs full XP for beating all six rooms of spiders if they hired a dwarven drilling team to bypass the Spider Caves and go straight to the next part of the dungeon? I don't think most DMs today would.

"You want to get paid" is a really clear motivation that makes sense in character. "You want to overcome obstacles" is really nebulous and only works for anime characters. Most real people want to avoid obstacles and achieve their goals at the lowest expense of time/effort.


I'm thinking about switching from XP for defeating enemies, to XP earned for gold. This is for a retro-style campaign I'm running. I want the XP earned rate to be about the same without increasing the amount of gold. The goal is to bring back something missing from dungeon delves: The incentive to overcome the challenge by whatever means, not just by combat. The goal shifts directly to earning gold for all purposes, in-game and meta.

One problem is players don't earn gold at the same rate as XP. It comes considerably slower. By level 4 a player should expect about 200 gp ... and will have 2700 xp. I'm tentatively looking at a conversion rate of 1xp earned per 25 gp retrieved.

Anything else anyone can think of that I need to cover if I'm going this route?

Can PCs even buy magic items in 5E? Does gold matter? What happens if a 4th level dude has 3k?

[Tanarii]

"You want to get paid" is a really clear motivation that makes sense in character. "You want to overcome obstacles" is really nebulous and only works for anime characters. Most real people want to avoid obstacles and achieve their goals at the lowest expense of time/effort. Exactly. It encourages an entirely different way of thinking. But I do like the idea of mix & match, now that Max drew my attention to that being how it used to work.


Can PCs even buy magic items in 5E? Does gold matter? What happens if a 4th level dude has 3k?Does it matter? Now the players have a reason/motivation to go out there and be as rich as creosote. I can find things for them to spend the money on. But I'm certainly going to introduce gold to level/train. Because that becomes part of the circle of adventuring I used to love: You need gold to get xp, but you need even more gold than you actually have to level up and start earning xp again. :)

Or do you mean: Who cares if I up the rate at which gold is handed out and make it 1:1 XP/GP? That's valid, although I might have to up the cost of the more expensive armors to make sure players don't get them before the power-curve expects it.

[UberMagus]

Oh, god, I remember "Gold to train". ::shudders::
I am glad you are not my DM. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

Oh, god, I remember "Gold to train". ::shudders::
I am glad you are not my DM. :smallbiggrin:Oh, I wouldn't inflict it on anyone that wasn't a willing participant. Sadomasochists that we are. :smallamused:

[UberMagus]

Oh, I wouldn't inflict it on anyone that wasn't a willing participant. Sadomasochists that we are. :smallamused:

Sounds like it. :smalltongue: between the slowed xp and gold to train. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

The goal isn't slower XP accrual.

For example D&D 5e treasure is around or about 500gp through level 5. The required XP is 6500 xp. If, for example, I give 10xp per GP earned through level 5, then the creature award should be about 1500xp. That means I can either reduce the XP reward for creatures to ~1/4 through level 5. Or I can assume that players will fight about 1/4 as often to GET that gold reward. Or something balanced in between.

But yeah, I'll have to figure out what constitutes defeated/XP foes under this standard, and how often I expect players to intelligently bypass foes instead of defeat them ... while still getting the gold.

[gullveig]

I was looking something like this the other day.

In OD&D, Fighters go up to level 36 and their XP needed to go there is nearly equals the XP need to go to level 20 in 5e. But in OD&D the XP curve is almost linear, and in 5e is exponential. (edit: I'm talking about what is in the Rules Cyclopedia, I never know if it is OD&D, B/X, BECMI or whatever...)

Also, Hack&Slash Master blog have some articles about that.... BTW, it is one of best blog about RPG.

Theoretical talk about the reward of XP...
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com.br/2014/03/on-advancement-mechanics-experience.html

How to give XP based in gold in Pathfinder...
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com.br/2014/03/on-old-school-pathfinder.html

Rules to grant XP by killing and by getting gold that are not only XP per Kill or per coin...
http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com.br/2014/07/on-giving-experience-for-combat.html

Somewhere I saw a XP per gold spend, instead of gold earned, and it give the example of getting lots of XP by carousing but carousing also had some consequences (some good, some bad). But I can't find where it was... Dungeon World maybe?

[pwykersotz]

Somewhere I saw a XP per gold spend, instead of gold earned, and it give the example of getting lots of XP by carousing but carousing also had some consequences (some good, some bad). But I can't find where it was... Dungeon World maybe?

This intrigues me.

[Tanarii]

But in OD&D the XP curve is almost linear, and in 5e is exponential.Technically 5e scales geometrically (x3) until 4th, then slowly exponentially until about 11, then linear until 15, then slowly exponential to 20.

AD&D 1e was geometric (x2) until level 10-12 (depending on class). After that it became linear.

Rules Cyclopedia is BECMI by the way. Looking around (briefly) online, it looks like it's geometric (x2) until level 10(ish), then (mostly) linear after that. (Edit: I used to have the RC but don't any more.)

Thanks for the links.

Edit: far too tired, all my math talk is totally wrong. Ignore all that.

[Thrudd]

The goal isn't slower XP accrual.

For example D&D 5e treasure is around or about 500gp through level 5. The required XP is 6500 xp. If, for example, I give 10xp per GP earned through level 5, then the creature award should be about 1500xp. That means I can either reduce the XP reward for creatures to ~1/4 through level 5. Or I can assume that players will fight about 1/4 as often to GET that gold reward. Or something balanced in between.

But yeah, I'll have to figure out what constitutes defeated/XP foes under this standard, and how often I expect players to intelligently bypass foes instead of defeat them ... while still getting the gold.

If you're giving xp for gold, you don't need to worry about awards for bypassing- getting the gold IS the reward for bypassing foes.

If you want to do this, might as well go whole hog. Replace 5e equipment costs with 1e costs, replace the xp advancement chart with that from the older game, too. Since the classes seem more balanced than they once were, maybe use the 1e fighter advancement for most classes, MU advancement for full casters?
Award treasure in amounts comparable to 1e, use the 1e monster manual for an idea how much various monsters have. Follow the 1e guide for awarding defeated monster xp, too.

I feel this would be easier than trying to reinvent the wheel, as it were. Start with the 1e baseline for that stuff, and tweak where it is needed if you find areas in play that aren't working with the 5e rules.

[Tanarii]

Lord that seems ambitious, but at the same time, yeah, it might be simpler in the end.

Problem is this is something I'd be adding in to a campaign under-way. Not that it'll be hard to do a soft-reboot. I'll just wait until the next TPK.

[gullveig]

This intrigues me.

Found! http://jrients.blogspot.com.br/2008/12/party-like-its-999.html

Jeffs blog is another good read about D&D. Full of nice material. ;)

[MaxWilson]

This thread has got me thinking about adopting the OD&D rule for XP, which is much like the AD&D rule Tanarii quoted.


Gains in experience points will be relative; thus an 8th level Magic-User operating on the 5th dungeon level would be awarded 5/8 experience. […] Experience points are never awarded above a 1 for 1 basis, so even if a character defeats a higher level monster he will not receive experience points above the total of treasure combined with the monster’s kill value.

Perhaps I should cap XP awards in 5E by a similar fraction, so that 5th level characters fighting CR 2 creatures gain only 40% of the XP value from each creature, or 5% for CR 1/4. It would make me life slightly more complicated as a DM (since I often have heterogenous party levels) but I like what it does to the player incentives: makes it even less tempting to level grind in the Spider Rat Caves, and more tempting to go hunting for treasure in the City of Forgotten Gold.

Also, this thread and the hackslashmaster links have reminded me that my sandbox playstyle is basically OD&D "high-level wilderness gaming", which is intrinsically more deadly than dungeon gaming. I.e. in early D&D, dungeons were actually safer than the wilderness outside dungeons. I will have to ponder on the implications here and how it should impact the way I DM...

[lebefrei]

I understand the intent here, but have you considered the outcomes? Our job as DM is to control and shape and guide the player experience. If you don't want them, for example, fighting spiders in caves... then don't have any. It's that easy. If you're using modules written by others, change what you don't like.

My concern for gold as xp would be the way that players shift their thoughts over actions. Currently, overcoming obstacles, nebulous or not, encourages heroic play as long as it is well framed. Telling players that they are further rewarded (beyond purchasing power) for gaining gold makes it all about the money.

What can change? I don't let my table become murderhobos, but I think this would make that sort of problem even worse. Now they are pillagehobos. Kill every dragon, because boy is that a lot of loot. Why bother dealing with a gnoll menace, they don't have much loot. In fact, the noble asking us to do it does have a lot... Hmmm! "Pay us more gold or we won't help!" becomes more common. Then, they start to think, why waste time helping these guys when we can just take their gold?! Cities are full of it! Treasure and exp all in one!

I just don't like further incentivizing greed, personally, and I would fear that is the consequence of this.

[UberMagus]

I understand the intent here, but have you considered the outcomes? Our job as DM is to control and shape and guide the player experience. If you don't want them, for example, fighting spiders in caves... then don't have any. It's that easy. If you're using modules written by others, change what you don't like.

My concern for gold as xp would be the way that players shift their thoughts over actions. Currently, overcoming obstacles, nebulous or not, encourages heroic play as long as it is well framed. Telling players that they are further rewarded (beyond purchasing power) for gaining gold makes it all about the money.

What can change? I don't let my table become murderhobos, but I think this would make that sort of problem even worse. Now they are pillagehobos. Kill every dragon, because boy is that a lot of loot. Why bother dealing with a gnoll menace, they don't have much loot. In fact, the noble asking us to do it does have a lot... Hmmm! "Pay us more gold or we won't help!" becomes more common. Then, they start to think, why waste time helping these guys when we can just take their gold?! Cities are full of it! Treasure and exp all in one!

I just don't like further incentivizing greed, personally, and I would fear that is the consequence of this.

Now, if the party is EVIL, it opens up so cool flavor. The Bard and his Cha-powered Ponzi scheme. The bruisers and their protection rackets. The casters and their magic money-making shenanigans. The Swashbuckler building his shipping magnate...

[Comet]

I understand the intent here, but have you considered the outcomes? Our job as DM is to control and shape and guide the player experience. If you don't want them, for example, fighting spiders in caves... then don't have any. It's that easy. If you're using modules written by others, change what you don't like.

My concern for gold as xp would be the way that players shift their thoughts over actions. Currently, overcoming obstacles, nebulous or not, encourages heroic play as long as it is well framed. Telling players that they are further rewarded (beyond purchasing power) for gaining gold makes it all about the money.

What can change? I don't let my table become murderhobos, but I think this would make that sort of problem even worse. Now they are pillagehobos. Kill every dragon, because boy is that a lot of loot. Why bother dealing with a gnoll menace, they don't have much loot. In fact, the noble asking us to do it does have a lot... Hmmm! "Pay us more gold or we won't help!" becomes more common. Then, they start to think, why waste time helping these guys when we can just take their gold?! Cities are full of it! Treasure and exp all in one!

I just don't like further incentivizing greed, personally, and I would fear that is the consequence of this.

You're absolutely right, giving XP for gold does make the player characters greedy.

I think this just makes them feel more human. We all have problems with money, we all know what chasing money feels like. Heroic play is really reactive: you see evil, you try to get rid of it because you must. Adventuring for profit is proactive: you don't have money, how are you going to earn it? This can tell a lot more about what a character is like as a person, since they are making their own path rather than taking up the dragonlance just because it's there and that's what heroes are supposed to do.
Or, to put it more shortly: heroic play is about the story, greedy play is about the characters.

To be fair, this is 100% a matter of preferred aesthetics. Some people prefer Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, some people prefer Dragonlance. XP for gold gives you the former, XP for obstacles gives you the latter.

[Sigreid]

Was just thinking xp for gold could help with the problem of "How did the non-adventuring npc get to that level anyway?". In short, he did his job, and as he earned his living he got more skilled allowing him to earn more money allowing him to advance further.

[Sigreid]

Now, if the party is EVIL, it opens up so cool flavor. The Bard and his Cha-powered Ponzi scheme. The bruisers and their protection rackets. The casters and their magic money-making shenanigans. The Swashbuckler building his shipping magnate...

None of those really require evil. Heck, everyone has to eat, and eating well is better than eating poorly. Also, accumulating wealth can easily act as a force multiplier for someone wishing to do good. Even the best swordsman can only protect against so much, but if he can afford to raise and equip a strong army?

[JoeJ]

Was just thinking xp for gold could help with the problem of "How did the non-adventuring npc get to that level anyway?". In short, he did his job, and as he earned his living he got more skilled allowing him to earn more money allowing him to advance further.

It also fits perfectly with the idea of a bunch of free traders trying to make a honest(ish) living, if you want a game that feels more like Firefly than LotR.

[UberMagus]

None of those really require evil. Heck, everyone has to eat, and eating well is better than eating poorly. Also, accumulating wealth can easily act as a force multiplier for someone wishing to do good. Even the best swordsman can only protect against so much, but if he can afford to raise and equip a strong army?

Fine, "non-good" then. :p

[Thrudd]

Note: In D&D, xp is not awarded just for getting money. Xp is awarded for treasure recovered from the dungeon/wilderness and returned to civilization, and in smaller part for defeating dangerous monsters. You don't get xp for robbing a shop keeper or looting a city. You don't get xp from being a blacksmith and selling horseshoes, or by haggling for a higher price on your carrot crop. You only get XP for being an adventurer. What the DM needs to figure out is why this makes sense for the game world: it must be a place where civilization is based on the treasure, knowledge and magic recovered from many layers of lost/collapsed/ancient civilizations.

That is why, in older D&D, most people in the world are level 0 with no class, and will never gain any xp or levels.

[greenstone]

The Primeval Thule game suggests using treasure for XP, at a rate of 1 GP = 1 XP. No story XP, no encounter XP, no monster XP - just one XP for every gold piece the characters carry home.

This models the motivation of most protagonists in pulp stories. Conan wasn't in it to save the world or defeat evil, he just wanted money. Once he got the money, he spent most of it on alcohol, music and ladies of negotiable virtue (he wasted the rest of it). Being out of money was the reason he headed into the next adventure.

I'm hoping to start a d&D 5E Thule game in a few weeks. I look forward to seeing how it turns out.

[lebefrei]

To be fair, this is 100% a matter of preferred aesthetics. Some people prefer Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, some people prefer Dragonlance. XP for gold gives you the former, XP for obstacles gives you the latter.

I like both... At least in the latter they are being manipulated by a god of good to save the world. The former are just patsies for a couple of morally dubious wizards. That may work for a while, but I'd hope eventually the party would tire of being played for fools. If not I guess it really does go to character...

[JoeJ]

If you're giving xp for treasure you should seriously consider also using the variant encumbrance rules because that will make decisions about what to take and what to leave more meaningful. And including the possibility of wandering monsters will force players to consider their movement rate and how much of their normal adventuring equipment they're willing to drop in order to carry a little more gold.

[MaxWilson]

If you're giving xp for treasure you should seriously consider also using the variant encumbrance rules because that will make decisions about what to take and what to leave more meaningful. And including the possibility of wandering monsters will force players to consider their movement rate and how much of their normal adventuring equipment they're willing to drop in order to carry a little more gold.

Also consider giving out electrum, silver, and copper instead of just gold.

[Tanarii]

I understand the intent here, but have you considered the outcomes? Our job as DM is to control and shape and guide the player experience. If you don't want them, for example, fighting spiders in caves... then don't have any. It's that easy. If you're using modules written by others, change what you don't like.

My concern for gold as xp would be the way that players shift their thoughts over actions. Currently, overcoming obstacles, nebulous or not, encourages heroic play as long as it is well framed. Telling players that they are further rewarded (beyond purchasing power) for gaining gold makes it all about the money.

What can change? I don't let my table become murderhobos, but I think this would make that sort of problem even worse. Now they are pillagehobos. Kill every dragon, because boy is that a lot of loot. Why bother dealing with a gnoll menace, they don't have much loot. In fact, the noble asking us to do it does have a lot... Hmmm! "Pay us more gold or we won't help!" becomes more common. Then, they start to think, why waste time helping these guys when we can just take their gold?! Cities are full of it! Treasure and exp all in one!I don't think you do understand my intent. My campaign is a sandbox with level-protected zone (aka Dungeons) to crawl. I'm trying to shape and control and guide the player experience in so far as giving them the option to NOT fight, and still have motivation to go dungeon crawling. In other words, I'm rewarding intelligent players for succeeding in the primary goal of dungeon crawling: getting treasure by intelligent play. If you don't reward treasure and instead only defeated monster xp, the primary goal instead becomes to engage and destroy monsters.

I have no problem with, in fact I want, my players becoming pillagehobos instead of murderhobos, if they can find a way to do it.


Note: In D&D, xp is not awarded just for getting money. Xp is awarded for treasure recovered from the dungeon/wilderness and returned to civilization, and in smaller part for defeating dangerous monsters.Agreed. As I quoted upthread.


If you're giving xp for treasure you should seriously consider also using the variant encumbrance rules because that will make decisions about what to take and what to leave more meaningful. And including the possibility of wandering monsters will force players to consider their movement rate and how much of their normal adventuring equipment they're willing to drop in order to carry a little more gold.

Also consider giving out electrum, silver, and copper instead of just gold.I already use variant encumberance, treasure award is commonly in small unit denominations or bulky works of art form, and I already use wandering monsters.

[Tanarii]

This models the motivation of most protagonists in pulp stories. Conan wasn't in it to save the world or defeat evil, he just wanted money. Once he got the money, he spent most of it on alcohol, music and ladies of negotiable virtue (he wasted the rest of it). Being out of money was the reason he headed into the next adventure.For sure, Conan is quite possibly the best story example of how AD&D worked. And he's the reason I'm falling back to this old style of campaign play, for exactly the reasons you just described.

[REVISIONIST]

For sure, Conan is quite possibly the best story example of how AD&D worked. And he's the reason I'm falling back to this old style of campaign play, for exactly the reasons you just described.

I've run into this problem already in a game I'm playing in now. (I usually DM, so less used to the play side). In an low magic setting what do you spend all your hard earned GP on? We are all currently low level, no magic shops, crafts and downtime can be used with skills to repair damaged
gear. How many medicine kits can I buy? Can we even find a place to purchase a healing potion? I like the idea of going a little old school, less XP for just a kill, more XP for how it was handled. And GP = XP does nicely tie into the reasons nobles/kings/generic ruler should have some more weight, vs. just applying a different CR value.

[Tanarii]

At 10gp per day (the most expensive lifestyle), an adventurer could blow through his whole haul pretty quick. Especially after throwing a few banquets for all his friends in the first week. ;)

[REVISIONIST]

At 10gp per day (the most expensive lifestyle), an adventurer could blow through his whole haul pretty quick. Especially after throwing a few banquets for all his friends in the first week. ;)

Banquets..for all my "friends", hey lets be real here, those guys barely hauled their own on our last outing! LOL! Lucky if I buy them a drink at some second rate tavern the GM tosses in the game. ;) But there really is a problem with how to spend your GP in 5e and I like where you're going with it.

[MaxWilson]

I've run into this problem already in a game I'm playing in now. (I usually DM, so less used to the play side). In an low magic setting what do you spend all your hard earned GP on? We are all currently low level, no magic shops, crafts and downtime can be used with skills to repair damaged
gear. How many medicine kits can I buy? Can we even find a place to purchase a healing potion? I like the idea of going a little old school, less XP for just a kill, more XP for how it was handled. And GP = XP does nicely tie into the reasons nobles/kings/generic ruler should have some more weight, vs. just applying a different CR value.

There are a number of possibilities (drow sleep poison, caltrops, bear traps, diamonds for Revivify/etc.) but the one you'll get the most mileage out of is hirelings. Bounded accuracy makes hirelings awesome. The first thing you should think when you meet a band of wandering hobgoblins isn't, "Kill them for XP!" It's "how do I persuade these guys to sell me their loyalty?"

Be sure to take Inspiring Leader to keep their morale up.

[REVISIONIST]

There are a number of possibilities (drow sleep poison, caltrops, bear traps, diamonds for Revivify/etc.) but the one you'll get the most mileage out of is hirelings. Bounded accuracy makes hirelings awesome. The first thing you should think when you meet a band of wandering hobgoblins isn't, "Kill them for XP!" It's "how do I persuade these guys to sell me their loyalty?"

Be sure to take Inspiring Leader to keep their morale up.

I have yet to play in a 5E game where any low level players have had minions. Though I would like to. Beartraps? Drow sleep poison? Diamonds??
Heck I've been happy to get 25 GP ransacking a crowd of 10 hobgoblins and a few bugbears. And still it was more an issue of what can we be buy where we are than what is available in the DMG. At low levels I guess you better head to the big city if you need some "universe dew".

[REVISIONIST]

And at the low levels I've played at so far, there was never a chance of persuading the Hobs of being our minions. Just the way the game was flowing as the Dm was laying it out. We tried to overcome the bugbears with skill checks but the dice went bad, and the Hobs were having none
of it. So kill or be killed. None of the group had a great charisma.
And back to the thread I think it also allows a player to be more of a noble, local leader, etc. If a noble (MM 1/8 cr) were to equate to player, hows does that work?
The GP ratio XP just seems to work better. If I'm an up and coming adventurer that manages to put together just the right group of people to expoit a ruin, gain a
treasure with untold gold, wouldn't I want to set up some kind of satrapy. Now we're talking minions.

[MaxWilson]

And at the low levels I've played at so far, there was never a chance of persuading the Hobs of being our minions. Just the way the game was flowing as the Dm was laying it out. We tried to overcome the bugbears with skill checks but the dice went bad, and the Hobs were having none
of it. So kill or be killed. None of the group had a great charisma.
And back to the thread I think it also allows a player to be more of a noble, local leader, etc. If a noble (MM 1/8 cr) were to equate to player, hows does that work?
The GP ratio XP just seems to work better. If I'm an up and coming adventurer that manages to put together just the right group of people to expoit a ruin, gain a
treasure with untold gold, wouldn't I want to set up some kind of satrapy. Now we're talking minions.

So what happens if you knock them out with nonlethal melee attacks instead of killing them, and then tie them up and negotiate with them afterwards?

At my table, this approach plus some insistent verbal brainwashing from the party wizard eventually led to one of the captured hobgoblins not only becoming a full NPC Dragon Sorcerer but eventually a PC as well.

[Sir cryosin]

If you're giving xp for gold, you don't need to worry about awards for bypassing- getting the gold IS the reward for bypassing foes.

If you want to do this, might as well go whole hog. Replace 5e equipment costs with 1e costs, replace the xp advancement chart with that from the older game, too. Since the classes seem more balanced than they once were, maybe use the 1e fighter advancement for most classes, MU advancement for full casters?
Award treasure in amounts comparable to 1e, use the 1e monster manual for an idea how much various monsters have. Follow the 1e guide for awarding defeated monster xp, too.

I feel this would be easier than trying to reinvent the wheel, as it were. Start with the 1e baseline for that stuff, and tweak where it is needed if you find areas in play that aren't working with the 5e rules.

At thar point you should just play 1e.

[Tanarii]

And at the low levels I've played at so far, there was never a chance of persuading the Hobs of being our minions. Just the way the game was flowing as the Dm was laying it out. We tried to overcome the bugbears with skill checks but the dice went bad, and the Hobs were having none
of it. So kill or be killed. None of the group had a great charisma.The point of lowering or eliminating XP for defeating monsters is to encourage non-combat thinking and character builds. Of course, it's completely possible to do this with RP-type experience awards too.


And back to the thread I think it also allows a player to be more of a noble, local leader, etc. If a noble (MM 1/8 cr) were to equate to player, hows does that work?
The GP ratio XP just seems to work better. If I'm an up and coming adventurer that manages to put together just the right group of people to expoit a ruin, gain a
treasure with untold gold, wouldn't I want to set up some kind of satrapy. Now we're talking minions.
Yeah, the advantage of a XP for "GP recovered from dungeons/adventures" method is it clearly defines the goal of the campaign. To raid dungeons and go on adventures for gold. By default, this will encourage players to spend their gold in ways that will enable them to get more gold. By hiring minions, by building a stronghold as a base of operations, by spending money to research tombs and forgotten temples before raiding them, etc

If I wanted a mercenary campaign, a good way to encourage it might be XP for gold earned via mercenary contract. For a diplomatic campaign, RP awards for diplomatic activities should be paramount. For a conquest campaign, XP for taking and holding land. For a spying campaign, XP for successful spy missions. For a military strike force campaign, again, successful missions.

I find that xp for killing or defeating monsters leads itself to a overly combat oriented game when it's a sandbox dungeon-crawl campaign, and that's not really the flavor I wanted this time around. Overcoming obstacles by any means to get that gold ... that's about right. :)

[Tanarii]

At thar point you should just play 1e.Have you read ADDICT? /shudder

I like a lot of things about 1e's flavor, especially DM tools that came out of the Dungeoneers and Wilderness explorers. But NOT it's combat system.

[Sir cryosin]

What about rp heavy session one of my groups last session was nothing but. Talking rp we didn't get any gold we didn't kill anything. All we did was have a meeting with a bandit king that was kidnapped escaped and was starting a rebellion. Just to **** with the king that had him kidnapped befor returning to his kingdom. We got quite a lot of xp for that session but by the standards your looking to incorporate that hole session would been nothing but rp fun. I love rp but I like to have some kind of lv progress.

[Tanarii]

First of all, I consider RP to be everything decision a player makes for his character. Combat is full of RP, as is overcoming puzzles and traps.

But going with the more modern interpretation of RP as 'talking', yeah, XP = Gold doesn't encourage it any more than XP = defeating enemies. The method used to gain XP definitely sets the tone of the campaign.

I'm a big fan of keeping campaigns focused on their primary goal, and the easiest way to do that is reward XP for things related to the primary goal. ;)

[Sir cryosin]

First of all, I consider RP to be everything decision a player makes for his character. Combat is full of RP, as is overcoming puzzles and traps.

But going with the more modern interpretation of RP as 'talking', yeah, XP = Gold doesn't encourage it any more than XP = defeating enemies. The method used to gain XP definitely sets the tone of the campaign.

I'm a big fan of keeping campaigns focused on their primary goal, and the easiest way to do that is reward XP for things related to the primary goal. ;)

Well if we were using the gold is xp are rouge would be 10 lv ahead of the party just because she is a companion like a companion in firefly and a gnome gave her 150 pp just for talking with her and accepting a assassination contract. Don't get on to me about the gold xp math I know it not 10 worth but this happened at lv3.

[Sir cryosin]

Gold =xp just feels unfair. We get to town the bard say I'm looking for a place to play a show tonight he roll BM said ok you find a noble that's looking for a bard to play at his banquet tonight. Bard rolls for a performance check he rolls high. Then dm roll percentile dice rolls 300 bard makes 300 gp that night. What are the other players going to to if the bard or a rouge for that matter go out every night to do that. When the fighter or the druid or barbarian don't have any trade skills.

[Thrudd]

Gold =xp just feels unfair. We get to town the bard say I'm looking for a place to play a show tonight he roll BM said ok you find a noble that's looking for a bard to play at his banquet tonight. Bard rolls for a performance check he rolls high. Then dm roll percentile dice rolls 300 bard makes 300 gp that night. What are the other players going to to if the bard or a rouge for that matter go out every night to do that. When the fighter or the druid or barbarian don't have any trade skills.

You don't get xp for that. Only for bringing treasure back from a dungeon/adventure location. The amount gets split evenly between each party member that went on the adventure (and came back alive).

If you do xp for gold, that means the game is about getting gold from the dungeon. If the characters aren't doing that, they aren't advancing in the game.

[Tanarii]

I'm talking XP = GP for Gold retrieved from a Dungeon/Adventure. And it's split evenly among surviving party members. Edit: Ninja by Thrudd :)

Also, your DM using performance for a Bard to earn 300 gp in the night is far outside the bounds of the suggestions inside the rules. The Entertainer Background feature allows those of that background to work in return for a wealthy lifestle. ie about 4gp / night. If a performance check can invalidate that background feature multiple times over, what's the point of having it?

[Sir cryosin]

Players should be awarded xp for over coming events and challenges. Like you are traveling to point x from point b. It's going to take 2 weeks your starting day 1 of week 2 you are attack by a pack of dire wolf's. Wolf's don't carry around gold so how are you calculating xp. What if the party gets attacked knocked out and tied up. They get free and run away from there captive. And left everything away but to get away they had to make all kinds of rolls from sthelth, acrobatics athletics, tie and making things. How would you award xp.

[Tanarii]

In both those cases, the players reward is staying alive. That's a pretty cut and dried reward. What's needed by me is motivation for the players to put themselves in overtly dangerous situations no sane person would go into, ie dungeon delving. XP for defeating creatures and XP for getting gold both serve that function, but they result in different player motivations.

I'm not suggesting that what I'm looking for it going to work for other people's campaigns. Hell, it won't work for other campaigns I run. It's to accomplish a specific goal in terms of player motivation in one campaign.

[Sir cryosin]

In both those cases, the players reward is staying alive. That's a pretty cut and dried reward. What's needed by me is motivation for the players to put themselves in overtly dangerous situations no sane person would go into, ie dungeon delving. XP for defeating creatures and XP for getting gold both serve that function, but they result in different player motivations.

I'm not suggesting that what I'm looking for it going to work for other people's campaigns. Hell, it won't work for other campaigns I run. It's to accomplish a specific goal in terms of player motivation in one campaign.

That's what plot hooks are for. I still don't see the resonance to tie xp to the amount of wealth you find in a dungeon. Everything has an xp value and motivation shouldnt just be gold. Players are adventures they should be seeking out quest and all the other what nots. Other whys they are just there back grounds. You say it's for motivation to go into the dungeon. I don't see the motivation in ok so there is 1000gp in there but it's garden by a dragon. Oh wait I heard of a different cave over in the next town over that has about 2000gp with only a few goblins in it. Besides what if you have a player whose person that whose PC personality is where they don't care about gold what would be their motivation to go into the dungeon then

[Comet]

To get back into hows instead of whys for a minute:

Minions, hirelings and henchmen are definitely my favourite way to keep the GP/XP circulation going. You spend money to be able to carry out even more treasure. I don't know if 5e has rules or prices for hiring help or handling encumbrance in a quick but meaningful way, I hope it does.

Keep in mind, though: dumping D&D money on hirelings tends to change the game pretty quickly. Sure, at first you're Conan the Barbarian skulking around a dark tomb looting coins and silver crosses to pay for your next meal. A couple levels, and thousands of coins, later you're sitting at the entrance of a dark tomb while your 20 men-at-arms, six hounds, three teamsters, a caterer and accountant do the heavy lifting for you. I personally love that, it feels so good to literally lay siege on a dungeon that gave you trouble back when you were still level 1. Especially if that dungeon is a tower and you bring along catapults.

[Tanarii]

That's what plot hooks are for. I still don't see the resonance to tie xp to the amount of wealth you find in a dungeon. Everything has an xp value and motivation shouldnt just be gold. Players are adventures they should be seeking out quest and all the other what nots.Maybe players "should" in other campaigns, but that's not what the players and I put this campaign together for.


Minions, hirelings and henchmen are definitely my favourite way to keep the GP/XP circulation going. You spend money to be able to carry out even more treasure. I don't know if 5e has rules or prices for hiring help or handling encumbrance in a quick but meaningful way, I hope it does.

Keep in mind, though: dumping D&D money on hirelings tends to change the game pretty quickly. Sure, at first you're Conan the Barbarian skulking around a dark tomb looting coins and silver crosses to pay for your next meal. A couple levels, and thousands of coins, later you're sitting at the entrance of a dark tomb while your 20 men-at-arms, six hounds, three teamsters, a caterer and accountant do the heavy lifting for you. I personally love that, it feels so good to literally lay siege on a dungeon that gave you trouble back when you were still level 1. Especially if that dungeon is a tower and you bring along catapults.Yup, that's certainly the direction I expect the players in question to take the game. They'll find things to spend the money on, and it'll probably include hirelings/henchmen and strongholds. I'm just looking to tweak the subconscious motivations slightly, along with rewarding the style of play they tend towards anyway. These are all grognard players. Give them a sandbox with dungeons and an expressly CaW style for the campaign, and they're happy as pigs in the mud. Especially since the last edition didn't lend itself to that style as well as this one does.

Edit: I'm already using the Variant Encumbrance rules.

[UberMagus]

It seems like you have this pretty well worked through. :smallsmile:

All I can say is, again, I'm darn glad you're not my DM. I would hate this style of campaign. And you're a little off on the Conan thing: Money was always his motivation to head out, but far too often vanquishing evil, or helping a pretty... um... "face" would take over awful quick.

Clearing out a Dungeon is just as much about clearing out the threat it poses, as it is about looting. But I'm the kind of guy who plays D&D to play a hero, not just a looter. :smallsmile:

I've always been more Indy than Belloc.

[Tanarii]

All I can say is, again, I'm darn glad you're not my DM. I would hate this style of campaign.For sure. You might enjoy me DMing a different style of campaign. The important thing here is I got buy-in for this overall style of campaign before I even started it. This change in how XP is allocated won't go in to play without player buy-in. I wanted to thrash out the numbers a little first.

[REVISIONIST]

So what happens if you knock them out with nonlethal melee attacks instead of killing them, and then tie them up and negotiate with them afterwards?

At my table, this approach plus some insistent verbal brainwashing from the party wizard eventually led to one of the captured hobgoblins not only becoming a full NPC Dragon Sorcerer but eventually a PC as well.

I would play at your table in a minute. Not how this pick-up game at the local comic shop was going though. Two old grognards, four
murderhobos salivating at the chance to use whatever could get the "job" done, GM pretty much rolling with it (very young, first time GMing).
It was all ok, but outside of the box thinking was not really happening, not quite a railroad, but the outcome was kind of evident. The chances
of us subduing and minionizing just wasn't gonna happen. Again all ok but not like a dedicated campaign setting someone was running at their
domicile with a bunch of vets of the game. Next time I play though I'm going to roll with your suggestions, if a couple of old grogs can't out
argue a bunch of combat thirsty m-hobos, then maybe the game has moved past us. :)

[REVISIONIST]

SNIP

Just what I want to to do in the campaign I'm running, not quite mercs but players operating under the local rulers ok. Wait that does make them mercs, but whatever. I want them to be rewarded not by how many monsters they kill (or guards or anyone else) but how they get the job done.
The milestone mechanic doesn't really fit and I don't want them just wandering in the wilds just to accue enough XP to get to the level they need to acomplish the goals I have in mind. And I also want to let them use their down time to set up their own power base/ stronghold in the local area
making them on par with the other rulers in the area. XP for GP is a great answer. Thanks for grinding it out.