3 Axis Alignment

[GreyBlack]

Hey everybody! So the problems with the 3.5/PF alignment system is well-documented, with people constantly considering whether action X can be considered Good, Evil, Chaotic, or Lawful to varying degrees. I'll admit, I've always been fascinated by the question myself, but have felt the alignment system has been inadequate as it fails to address the problem of insufficient information from the actor, and can lead to bizarre scenarios where an individual can do good actions for evil reasons.

As such, it's my personal belief that the only way to solve this problem is by introducing a third axis of the alignment tree. I often like to go with the characters ability to differentiate reality from falsehood, but I have to wonder: what does the playground think? What other axis can we judge a given action on outside of their connection to reality?

[OldTrees1]

Using an axis to denote magnitude but not direction of self-deception sounds like a bad idea.

For example: Miko, under your system we would know her alignment but only know the magnitude of her self-deception. We would lose the knowledge of how much of that delusion was thinking she was more lawful than she was and how much was thinking she was more moral than she was.

I use a "2 points on the grid" system to denote alignment and self image.

For another example: There is a Lich that believes there is a correct number of people. They kill or save people with that number as their sole motive. They would consider themselves LG but actually would be closer to LE (order vs chaos) or CE (legal vs illegal).

[Esprit15]

Let's find some of the ones I've seen in the past.

Nice - Not Nice (Some would argue this is Good - Evil, to which I would like to point out that Good need not be Nice)

Stupid - Smart (Because some people know their alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. Can be modified to express fluidity of how staunch they are in their alignment)

Blue - Orange (Some in universe factor that can change between settings, such as whether magic is ethical to use)

Cats - Dogs (Ah, the age old question :smallwink: )

Actions - Consequences (Some actions have short term moral failings but lead to long term gaining, even for those who may have initially been harmed)

[frogglesmash]

I think the problem with d&d alignment system might be that it uses alignment to describe a character's personal philosophy, and theirs actions. Normally this works fine, but when there's a conflict between motives and actions the system breaks down and, in my experience, defaults towards evil (doing evil for good reasons is generally evil, and oddly doing good for evil reasons is also seen as evil). I'm not sure of the best way to fix this dissonance, but personally I only ever use alignment to describe a characters outlook on life regardless and don't even bother having try to descibe their actions, though their actions may change their outlook.

[Telonius]

I've always been a fan of the Funky/Square axis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?55828-Negative-Energy-Ha!-OUR-undead-are-fuelled-by-FUNKITUDE!).

[Elder_Basilisk]

IMO, before you add a third axis to alignment, you need to decide what you want alignment for.

As far as I can tell, alignment is used to keep track of your side in the big game conflicts. If you are good aligned, a holy sword won't hurt you, and you probably don't hang out with demons or devils. If you are Chaotic Evil, on the other hand, you can bathe in unholy blight without being injured and demons are your (unreliable) allies, carefully controlled minions, or unforgiving masters. Alignment is important because it tells whether a magic circle against evil gives enemies a bonus to saves against your spells and hedges out your summoned monsters.

This aspect of alignment is clear when looking at the good/evil axis and there is some sort of law/chaos axis in a lot of the D&D source material (Elric, Three Hearts and Three Lions, etc) though in that source material the law/chaos axis often didn't mean the same things. (My understanding is that, in the Elric books, neither law nor chaos is really a livable option for humans whereas in Three Hearts and Three Lions, both law (Christendom) and Chaos (Faerie) are compatible with human life and are thus live options rather than a "whoever wins, we lose" scenario).

Somehow or other the game also added an element of social structure (which is not terribly consistent--law is simultaneously positive law, collectivism/communitarianism, and tradition while chaos is generally individualism, freedom, and opposition to the positive law, even though freedom and individualism generally only flourish within a context of orderly positive law (which is usually contrasted with tradition)). The game also generally tacks on some kind of simplified personality description to alignment too. Thus an honest and honorable person is lawful while the rapscallion is chaotic. Why that would have anything to do with whether you are on the side of Faerie or Christendom is anyone's guess, and it's not as though the Faerie/Christendom conflict is a part of most D&D games anyway.

So what do you want the hypothetical new axis to do?
If you want it to keep track of sides in a cosmic conflict, I'd think that the Far Realms/Nature dichotomy is probably the best candidate for a third alignment axis. Historically in D&D, that conflict has been shoehorned into Law/Chaos, but to use alignment examples from the books, Robin Hood is going to be just as opposed to Cthulu, or any of the other creatures from beyond as Galahad is even though he's at most 2 steps away from them in alignment. It's not a tough call for Ffard or the Grey Mouser either even though they're unambiguously closer to Cthulu than Galahad on the traditional alignment scale. If they are dropped into a room where Galahad is duking it out with Nyarlathotep, they probably want Galahad to win. Though there would be conflict, their existence is compatible with Galahad's. Their existence is not compatible with Nyarlathotep's presence.

It also makes sense that you would have magical effects that effect only far realms creatures or only creatures who naturally belong in our world. Shoggoths don't make San checks when an old one shows up--only people do.

Regardless of whether or not it makes sense in the abstract though, it only makes sense in your campaign if you plan on having that conflict be a significant feature. If not it's just wasted space or thought.

On the other hand, if you want to track personality types or political affiliation rather than cosmic conflicts, it's worth asking why you want to use alignment to do it. I'd just have everyone decide their character's Myers Briggs type or whatever and call it a day, but I don't think that an INTJ Smite spell is going to make sense in any setting or story I can imagine. Likewise stories that emphasize political conflicts tend to be stories where alignment style magics and effects aren't called for. In a Revolutionary War campaign, Protection from Tory would probably be out of place, as would Detect Rebel.

To use a hypothetical Dresden Files based campaign as an example, I would say that Good/Evil, Summer/Winter, and Nature/Far Realms (though the last one is mostly behind the scenes) would be the three alignments along which the books' conflicts take place and all three would make sense in the campaign.

[Siosilvar]

I've always been a fan of the Funky/Square axis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?55828-Negative-Energy-Ha!-OUR-undead-are-fuelled-by-FUNKITUDE!).

First thing I thought too. Is that seriously more than eight years old?

[Telonius]

Wow, it is. Don't worry, though, age has no effect on funkitude.

[Zaq]

Lots of options, though I don't have the time to explore details. There's rational/irrational, proactive/reactive, group-minded/individual-minded, id/superego, patient/hasty, and surely plenty of others.

I do agree with Elder_Basilisk's advice that before you go slapping extra axes on the alignment grid, it'll be best to figure out what your end goal is and exactly why you want to do this.

[Ashtagon]

The continued existence of these threads is why I choose to use something akin to the d20 Modern system. Instead of alignment, you define three allegiances for your character, which are ewssentially freeform. If you're a cleric, one of those will almost certainly be to your deity.

Certain magical effects would then be defined as relating to certain allegiances. Sensible GMs would define those ones that relate to game mechanics at the start of the campaign, and make sure the players are aware of these (special exception for those allegiances that are intended to be a campaign mystery to be discovered). Players would be free to choose from a subset of the available allegiances (Pelor, family, king, city would be typical acceptable ones; Nyarlathotep would typically be banned for PCs).

Note that I do not allow "good" or "lawful" etc. as allegiances for this; an allegiance has to be to a specific entity or organisation.

[martixy]

I'm fond of the 3-axis alignment myself.
Axis 1: Law vs Chaos
Axis 2: Good
Axis 3: Evil

I mean, you could go with a 4-axis system, but I personally don't wanna bother with the second dichotomy.

Before you start asking questions answer this one:
Does doing something evil invalidate that other good thing you've done? Like - poof! It's as if it never happened.

[OldTrees1]

I'm fond of the 3-axis alignment myself.
Axis 1: Law vs Chaos
Axis 2: Good
Axis 3: Evil

I mean, you could go with a 4-axis system, but I personally don't wanna bother with the second dichotomy.

Before you start asking questions answer this one:
Does doing something evil invalidate that other good thing you've done? Like - poof! It's as if it never happened.

Ah, unfolding the single axis into the diamond it is. Makes sense when you are looking more in depth. However you can go even deeper by asking why you are average different actions (Doing 1 highly virtuous action amidst an amoral lifetime) or by looking at the parts of an action (The Good-Evil action calculation can turn 2D by judging intent and action separately to explain why we are biased to label mixed actions as evil).

[Falcon X]

Generally the alignments have to do with a person's outlooks and ideals. If I were thinking of a new axis, I would think of one that solves age-old alignment questions.

For example:
Honor alignment: Practically, this would remove the "Code of Honor" or "Personal law" from the law/chaos spectrum and keep the law/chaos for political/outward focuses. It also fixes issues with Robin Hood characters. It makes perfect sense for them to be Honorable, Good, and Chaotic.
Madness or Sanity alignment: While insane people are generally put in CE, or maybe CN, those aren't the only alignments that can be insane. In the broader sense, this represents how normal a person's thought processes are vs. how alien their thinking is.
Religious alignment: How closely the character follows mystical powers or even believes in them.

If I were doing this, I would add Sanity and Honor. They are even brought in to optional rules in 5th edition DMG.

[martixy]

Ah, unfolding the single axis into the diamond it is. Makes sense when you are looking more in depth. However you can go even deeper by asking why you are average different actions (Doing 1 highly virtuous action amidst an amoral lifetime) or by looking at the parts of an action (The Good-Evil action calculation can turn 2D by judging intent and action separately to explain why we are biased to label mixed actions as evil).

Nyah.... I don't think I'm prepared to go that far.
But I do feel this system lets Paladins and similar classes function much, much more sensibly.

Other than that I am a fan of Sanity, for certain types of games.
A Religious axis is pointless IMO. What exactly would be its utility past some niche granularity to Divine classes?

Honor is a fine idea, but only in a campaign built around it, as adding extraneous elements just for funzies is also not a good idea.
But as you know, there really is nothing new under the sun and such systems do exist in published material. The one I am aware of being located in PF's Ultimate Campaign.