The Discovery Of Magic, And Its Immediate Consequences

[Amaril]

Let's imagine a medieval-esque fantasy world where magic has never existed, and people have always had to rely on mundane technology. Then a small group of scholars suddenly discovers magic, and it can do all the things you expect in a mid- to high-magic fantasy setting: heal non-fatal injuries in seconds, cure disease, function like artillery in battles, see and hear things over impossible distances, change the forms of objects up to about the size of a person, that kind of stuff. I guess an okay comparison would be up to 3rd-level spells in D&D. Let's say this magic takes a while to learn, but can potentially be taught to anyone.

How do you see this changing the world? Obviously it would have some pretty big effects on the structure of society--what might they be? Over what length of time? If you've seen existing stories do this, how did they handle it?

(Yes, this is for something in particular, and I can provide more detail on the hypothetical situation, but I think it's also an interesting question in general, so I'll leave it open for the moment.)

[Gastronomie]

I assume it's a feudal society we're talking here.

Middle age feudalism is based upon the idea that the extremely powerful guys rule the really powerful guys, which rule the pretty powerful guys, which rule the sorta powerful guys, which rule the weak guys. The relationship of master and servant assumes that the servants are the strongest guys the master can fetch around himself, and that in times of need, he can command his powerful servants (each with their own armies) to stand up against any real threat.

In Japan's case it was the Samurai, with their own Families (Bushi-Dan), ruled by the Daimyo, which were ruled by the Shogun. Similar with medieval Europe, except with Knights and Kings. Either way, Samurai and Knights - they were the masters of combat and war tactics in their respective ages and regions, making them the best possible "fighting servants" for the kings (masters) of the country.

Let's see how evolution of technology changed all that. Because that's basically what "discovery of magic" means. I will talk in both European and Japanese terms, since the difference between the two is truly interesting.

In the real-world medieval Europe, knights began to fall in power when firepower was established. Immoral mercenaries became stronger than knights clad in bright armor. Thirty-year-war and stuff.

Contrary to this, in medieval Japan, firepower did NOT result in the end of Samurai. Instead the Samurai, which were right in the middle of a fierce battle age, decided to use the firepower European guys brought to their own advantage. Oda Nobunaga, a particular genius strategist, got his men to find out how the matchlock worked, and started creating them in Japan in their hundreds and thousands. Some cities were even called "gun cities" - their economy was based on professional blacksmiths that did nothing but create matchlocks all day and night. Not even half a century after the first matchlock arrived in Japan, believe it or not, Japan became the country with the most matchlocks in the entire world. This was of course because of the era being a battle age, as aforementioned, but anyhow, instead of giving up to firepower, Samurai took them in.

Of course, if this is kept like this, eventually firepower will leak to the lower classes and the samurai might be overthrown (which was sorta starting to happen - a majority of the guys fighting in wars back then were not official samurai, but former farmers who bought katanas and guns and jumped into the battelfields just to loot and gain profit). The samurai knew this. They feared this. After gaining control over all of Japan, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the successor of aforementioned Oda Nobunaga (who was assassinated by one of his trusted minions) issued the "Sword Hunt" decree, which forbid all farmers from owning any weapons. Though it's called the "Sword Hunt", it actually forbid holding guns as well. Hideyoshi successfully drew a strict line inbetween the farmers and samurai, creating one of the core elements of the Edo shogunate that rises after his death (the really funny thing is that Hideyoshi himself is one of the former farmers. Yeah, you heard it, he was a born as a farmer and grew to be the ruler of the whole country. But that's not really important in this discussion).

So, I talked about Japanese history, not to like, show off what I learned in history class or anything, but to give another example of how stuff could work out if magic is suddenly discovered in the dark ages.

D&D 5e games have it that "Fighter" can be just as viable a class as "Wizard", but this only to balance stuff up. I haven't played other versions of the game but I hear that in older editions, spellcasters reigned supreme. And honestly, that should be what a real world of magic should look like.

So there's two ways possible. One is the European route - previous rulers fall, and the spellcasters become the new rulers of the world. In this case, much things would be chaotic for some time, and magic would be accesible by everybody by the time the chaos ends. Eventually, as in the case with actual Europe, an absolute monarchy would gradually come into being - this based on the facts that (1) the market is established and broad (magic will smoothen up trading routs and stuff), paying the monarchy loads of tax that will help to sustain (2) the monarchy's ultimate arcane army of death and doom that nobody can hope to compete with. These two are the major reasons why absolute monarchy was possible in France and such. Like WE ARE THE STATES and stuff like that.
If even more time passes, revolution would occur, and finally an era when people can all live happily comes into being...OR NOT, as the new country will then begin invading all the weaker countries using their invincible arcane army. FIREBALL THE FRONT LINE!!

The other route is that the previous rulers are, as in Japan's samurai, flexible enough to adapt to the change and instead use the new magical technology to support their own armies, and after that, are able to ban the commoners from using it (like "only those of samurai/knight/noble/whatever blood are allowed to learn magic"). In this case the original rulers will still remain and reign supreme, creating a pretty stable but stratified society based on whether the family has arcane knowledge passed on or not. Also, in this case, if such things as sorcerers and warlocks exist, they will be hunted down to extinction.

Which works better for you? Some ideas from me based on real-world history.

[Steampunkette]

Immediate consequences would be laws banning the use of magic, with only the ruler and their court exempt. Any member of the serf class would likely be tortured and killed for using magic, unless magic use went from completely unknown to widespread in the course of a few days, faster than the kingsguard could act.

The powerful would remain powerful, while magic users were subjugated through coercion or violence into doing the bidding of the powerful.

In a world where the spread was quick, it would see common uses and uncommon uses. Common uses would be prestidigitation being used to flavor foods, clean buildings and items, and the like. While uncommon uses would be military applications. Sure, having a fireball flinging mage shoot explosives at your enemy is great, but that mage would quickly be the primary target of literally every battle, with surrender or destruction being the result if your mage were killed.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'm going to take a slightly different approach to this. What if this happened in the modern world?

The damage spells like fireball are no that important for the grand scheme. There will be laws to try and prevent the spread of this knowledge, in many countries, probably even to some extend in the US, after the first school fireballing. But honestly, it takes some serious dedication to learn magic, compared to how guns can be mostly bought on an impulse and are just as good for killing people.

The real early scare is therefor going to be about "prank" spells like invisibility and alter self. Now, at some point people will be scared of an invisible intruder with a knife, more than of a fireball user. That's partly for good reason. On the other hand: how often does it happen in the real world that someone picks a lock, hides himself in the house and kills people when they are sleeping? Not a lot, because it's just not a thing humans do very often. So the real outrage will probably be about peeping toms in the girls locker room and maybe privacy stuff like the authorities tailing people invisibly. On the side of the authorities this means they'll just start using divination spells, seems a lot less creepy to people, same effect. Self defense for girls classes will teach see invisibility to much of the worlds population.

Healing spells are the big one, probably. People will see the value of this and will start learning to use them. After a few cases of fractures being set while the bone was still sticking out of an arm there will be regulation. Some kind of exam to pass or more likely the requirement to be partnered with a medical doctor who can supervise any procedures. This is good news really, because it means there will still be doctors left for those things magic cannot cure, or where magic needs to be combined with advanced medical knowledge (say with a heart transplant).

And then there's the truly devious ones. Detect thoughts, command, inspire fear, touch of idiocy, hypnotic pattern, scare. The spells that can be used to manipulate people, because a group of well aimed people is more dangerous than any fireball. These low level spells do not work that well on large groups, but you can bet your ass politicians will be trying to find a way to use them anyway. And so will crime lord. These spells are harder to track and regulate than people throwing fire and lightning around. This is probably what people should be afraid of, yet very few will. There's not much you can do about it anyway, so why stress out?

In the end, most of what happens is probably that we get better healthcare, and the police needs to do a lot more paperwork now they're also using and countering all sorts of divination and blocking spells.

Then again, I've only covered the broad lines. Any single spell could become a huge game changer. For instance: what will speak with animals and speak with plants do to our food production?

[Gastronomie]

Well technically, the discovery of Charm Person alone is enough to destroy a civilization.

[Amaril]

*Really good stuff.*

Which works better for you? Some ideas from me based on real-world history.

The latter is more in line with what I had in mind (it's actually really close).

This is part of the backstory for a CRPG I'm sort of very slowly working on. The setting is mostly Dark Ages European, with some ancient Mediterranean stuff mixed in. Until maybe fifty years ago, Friendly Local Kingdom That Doesn't Have A Name Yet (FLK) was under the rule of Debatably Antagonistic Foreign Empire (DAFE), who had managed to put down every revolt for several generations thanks to their larger army and better military technology. Just as the last revolt was getting started, a group of archaeologists from the clergy of DAFE's science-venerating pseudo-religion unearthed a ruined city from a previously unknown ancient civilization within FLK's lands. This civilization had glimpsed the eldritch truth of the cosmos before it collapsed, and had left behind the recorded speech of beings from beyond, which the archaeologists discovered could be used to basically perform magic. They tried to keep it secret while they figured out how it worked, but the leaders of the rebellion heard about it, and managed to enlist the new magicians to their cause--apart from the obvious benefits of having actual magic on your side when your enemy doesn't, they had the idea that this power could be used to legitimize their rule by claiming it was a blessing from the god of FLK's native religion, which DAFE had been trying to suppress. With the magicians' help, the rebels finally won; the magicians became the leaders of FLK's revitalized religion, and crowned its new king. Since then, the clergy have maintained more or less a monopoly on magic, with which they support the feudal system.

[8BitNinja]

Let's imagine a medieval-esque fantasy world where magic has never existed, and people have always had to rely on mundane technology. Then a small group of scholars suddenly discovers magic, and it can do all the things you expect in a mid- to high-magic fantasy setting: heal non-fatal injuries in seconds, cure disease, function like artillery in battles, see and hear things over impossible distances, change the forms of objects up to about the size of a person, that kind of stuff. I guess an okay comparison would be up to 3rd-level spells in D&D. Let's say this magic takes a while to learn, but can potentially be taught to anyone.

How do you see this changing the world? Obviously it would have some pretty big effects on the structure of society--what might they be? Over what length of time? If you've seen existing stories do this, how did they handle it?

(Yes, this is for something in particular, and I can provide more detail on the hypothetical situation, but I think it's also an interesting question in general, so I'll leave it open for the moment.)

You can take from my own game's lore if you want

The sorcerers become rulers of everything, control politics, religion, and trade, and then become drunk on power and the evil found in the dark arts, a religion arrives with a promise of a more potent power to it's followers, and armies form. If this is D&D, the new religion controls all divine magic, while the sorcerers have all the arcane magic.

In my lore for my game, the practitioners of the dark arts are all killed and all records of their arcane rituals are destroyed, while divine energy stays.

[Quertus]

Well, you've got those civilizations that try to regulate and limit it. Then you've got those that embrace and integrate it. Finally, you have those that advance and weaponize it. Which do you think will survive?

[awa]

population collapse
Once you start curing all the diseases and healing the wounds suddenly all at once the population will explode to ridiculous levels infant mortality and disease were a huge check on population. Unless you can also create food magically they will rapidly overpopulate wear-out the land and suffer a population collapse.

Just going on the combat side of things im not certain there will be that big a change. The feudal system broke down becuase cheap mass produced troops were equal to or better than highly trained knights at a fraction of the cost. If anyone can potentially learn magic but it requires lots of time, while then the peasants still cant do it their largely illiterate and don't have the time to learn many if any spells. The knights will just switch over from stabbing stuff to blowing it up.

Some kingdoms will fall or be usurped as some catch on to the new magic faster but i don't see the traditional system breaking down you know assuming there's no population collapse.

[8BitNinja]

Yes... But knights are cool

[LokiRagnarok]

I am reminded of a quote from Night Watch series by Lukyanenko.



"If everybody gets magic... Today somebody might insult you on the train, but tomorrow they will turn you to ashes on the spot. Today an unpleasant neighbor gets their car door nailed, but tomorrow you get a curse or a vampire drains your blood. A monkey on a motorcycle is only funny in circus, but not on the streets of a city... Particularly if that monkey has a gun."
"You think the majority of us are monkeys?"
"All of us are."

It should be mentioned that magic system doesn't have such a hard "X spells per day" limit as the spell slots in D&D - more like drain in Shadowrun.

How destructive is the magic we are talking about?

[goto124]

"Up to 3rd level spells in DnD". Not sure which edition.

[Rhaegar14]

I largely agree with many of the posters above: the powerful will try to adopt magic, while the peasantry will be denied it to keep them subjugated. This is especially true if it must be TAUGHT, like for Wizards, as then only the upper classes will have access to the education (and literacy). However, it's somewhat plausible that, if spells are rigidly defined and separated like they are in D&D, some spells will be allowed to the peasantry to increase quality of life (for instance, prestidigitation), but probably nothing beyond first level or that has an obvious military function. If it makes them more able to revolt it's a no-no.

As far as military tactics, here's an opinion I haven't seen anybody else throw out there: if spells only go up to 3rd level, you'll probably see eldritch knights, not wizards. The warrior class will still want to be combat-capable after their spells/mana for the day run out, and just because the new magic is MORE effective doesn't mean swords are LESS effective. Soldiers are still taught hand-to-hand combat in the modern day (though admittedly not as extensively as it was to knights), they just don't use it as much as their other training.

@goto124: I'm pretty sure fireball is a 3rd level spell in every edition of D&D that has spell levels. The mechanical details change a little bit but the approximate "real world" power of a 3rd-level spell is relatively uniform between editions.

[Satinavian]

It depends on several things :

- What can magic do at what cost ?

Wherever it is far superior than the mundane alternative, it will be used nearly exclusively instead. That might change the apparent technological level and thus the society. If it can provide easy food, you won't have a society where most peoples work the fields anymore. If it can provide fast and secure transportation, you suddenly get a globalized economy. And so on.

The result would not look very medieval at all, except for cases, where magic is either weak or costly and thus can't be used on a great scale

- What are the requirements for learning/using magic ?

This will determine, how many mages you have and if "mage" is a full time job or something where everybody learns some tricks that help with their real profession. and daily life. It also will impact the place of mages in the society.


Also, D&D magic is a terible magic system for worldbuilding, as it is far too focused on combat and adventurers and has few and bad rules for the important problems of whole societies.

[8BitNinja]

Here's a question for the OP

Do you want magic to go well, or not so well?

[Douche]

The first time I played Civilization 5, I got placed in an encircled mountainous area with only 3-4 roads leading in or out. Since I was in the mountains, I didn't have the resources to expand early enough to make a land-grab, and found myself contained within the mountainous region, unable to expand outwards. In addition to that, since my "score" or "rank" was low among the countries (being that I had the least territory and not enough food to really develop a population or a large army), the AI thought I was weak and kept invading me...

I was not without advantages, though. Since there were only a few routes into my country, I just heavily fortified those narrow 1-hexgrid paths with massive amounts of troops, and mountain regions get a defensive bonus, so my borders were never breached. I was basically the Vale from Game of Thrones. On top of that, it gave me a ton of metal and other rare resources that allowed me to develop my science very quickly compared to the other countries. During this time, I attempted diplomacy with my neighbors who constantly invaded me. They'd sometimes humor my treaties (probably to appease their own war-weary populace) and then invade me again a few decades later.

Thanks to the scientific prowess of my people, I ended up developing the nuke and began researching space travel just as the other countries were starting to build their first tanks. That was when the madness started. I nuked all my neighbors who had harassed my people for centuries. Iraq was my closest neighbor. Baghdad was my first nuclear test. I rained death upon the entire continent, leaving nothing but a nuclear wasteland. The other countries begged me for mercy. I gave none. The countries on other continents all banded against me, being a war criminal who destroyed cities for my amusement (and sweet revenge) - to the guilty and to complacent bystanders who refused to help me alike. The whole world, united, was unable to breach my borders or stop my nuclear annihilation of them all.

In the end, I finished building the space station (one of the win conditions in Civilization is to be the first to complete space travel) and left the irradiated planet behind, winning the game and leaving a lifeless husk of a planet to the primates who were still working out how to build train tracks. Made me feel like a real super villain.

I don't know if that helps, but that what I related your topic to. I thought it was a really immersive moment in gaming for me, and I hope it gives you a small bit of inspiration :smallbiggrin:

[ILM]

If it was a true medieval world and the discoverers are a small group of scholars, then we can assume they're all in close geographical proximity and part of the same kingdom/empire/etc., yes? Going with historical precedent, then, I'd say:

0) Confidentiality. This is optional: maybe the discoverers try to keep magic to themselves. This may or may not be met with success depending on the individual members, so for a time you'll have a secret group of magic-users. If it lasts long enough, it might grow to an actual covert organisation? Their goals are up to you, but can realistically go from 'I want it all' to 'let's be the guardians of the world', and if the organisation lasts long enough these may even change or be subverted over time.

1) Discovery. People figure it out, and immediately pick sides. Likely, the overwhelming majority will be scared of them and therefore oppose them (though not necessarily openly)

2) Control. The first authority to hear of their powers is likely to be some local nobility (count, duke, king, your pick depending on how you want the information to spread and the spheres of power in your setting). That authority will - rightly - feel that the group challenges their established power, and want to either crush it or take it for themselves. Considering the stakes, I'd say the latter is more likely. The least violent way I'd go for is a) get a few magic-users to work for them, and b) outlaw all use of magic (with extreme penalties) except for those guys.

3) Conflict. As more people hear about the miracles of magic, more people are going to want it. Neighboring lords, countries, empires... This small group of discoverers is the most valuable resource in the world, and I think it's pretty clear the lengths people will go to for that sort of stuff. Therefore, the people who control magic (whether at that point it's still the discoverers themselves, or an authority they've pledged themselves to) will be challenged for this control.

4) The next step sort of depends on one thing: whether magic can be taught or otherwise spread, or not.
4a) If for any reason magic is restricted to a small group of humans, conflict will never end until they're gone. They may splinter or stay unified, but the rest of the world will never stop wanting what they have. Even if they, as a group, make it to the top, and even if they're the most benevolent of rulers, envy and resentment and fear will eventually bring about uprisings. Maybe they keep defeating them, but it's a far cry from happily ever after.

4b) If however magic can be taught, then it will spread and after a while, when every power player has magic, a new balance will be found. A dynamic one to be sure, as magic opens whole new ways to solve problems of all sorts, but a balance nonetheless.

Important note: all of this does assume that magic stays around 3rd level D&D spells. Some of these are very powerful but none are instantaneously game-changing on a regional scale. Like, charm person does basically make anyone your friend if you're only surrounded by level 1 commoners, but you still need to go meet them one by one and cast the spell at them. As a result, any global, far-reaching effects of magic only really come into play at step 4b) above once magic spreads and then number of magic-users increases; prior to that magic users can be assumed to be individually near-omnipotent, but only on a local scale.

[eru001]

It's going to depend on a lot of things, but the most important question will be this

Is magic learned or innate?

Can anyone, after long study and practice preform acts of magic, or will only a lucky few be born with a natural ability to use it?

if the first, I'd expect to see a lot of parallels to the rise of gunpowder in Europe. with a timeline scaled based on how much time and study is needed, I can't imagine it spreading quite as fast as guns did, one of the reason gunpowder weapons spread so quickly was that they were incredibly easy to learn to use, even today with complicated modern firearms a child can be taught the basics of safe firearm usage and maintenance over the course of an afternoon, magic strikes me as something that would take much longer.

(for the record, I saw a few posts above which subscribe to the admittedly common fallacy that gunpowder is what ended the era of the knight, this is incorrect, the rise of professional armies ended the era of the knight, once kings realized that it was cheaper to arm, train and maintain 10-15 professional soldiers than one Knight, and while yes one knight might have been able to take on a single common born soldier and win reliably, they weren't going to win reliably with a disadvantage of an order of magnitude. the turning point was the reintroduction of pike formations, with troops disciplined enough to stand their ground in the face of a charge of heavy cavalry. This however is a discussion for another time.)

If the second, I'd expect that you would simply one more class of nobility springing up. Or witch hunts. You could always have witch hunts.

[Socratov]

Well, any number of things can happen, though I imagine it will more or less boil down to the follwoing flow of events (slightly tongue in cheek, though far more accurate then you'd like, also this will fit for just about anything):


monopolisation
weaponisation
domestication
mythification


1 - Monopolisation

first the ruling class, rich class or some other class that has both power and a wish for more power, will try to monopolise it. this will cause a shift in the balance of power and will instigate a re-assessment of ranking based on power. they will introduce scarcity of said power to try and attempt control it in a logistic sense to create a powerbase. However, power creeps where people don't want it to and soon the power will be exchanged for other forms of power. This could happen any number of ways (theft, betrayal, surrender, buy-outs, you name it). At which time we move on to phase 2.

2 - Weaponisation

Since long times people have trie to find inventive and innovative new ways to hurt each other. Some times it is in a more genocidal nature to help nature realise that you are the rpime candidate to take as a template for survival, sometimes it is of a crueller nature in terms of torture to show society you are the best option. Honest! (I am ofcourse jesting slighlty, but the use of terror and intimdation is well spread throughout history). At this point we find our new power twisted and used to attack one another. He who wieldeth the largest stick is he who experienteth the most peace. Enter the arms race until phase 1 is triggered again, or until people realise (after numerous wars and/or skirmishes) that it might be better for everyone involved to let things calm down and to agree not to do this anymore (remember the cold War ending with Non-priliferation, yes, that is something that happens). Whichever happens (trigger of phase 1 or non-priliferation) if it happens phase 3 happens.

3 - Domestication

this pahse happens after the big guys have stopped playing with it and this inspires other sto use it for more peaceful uses. Finally we get where new stuff is actually benefitted from by the common man. I tmight be used to generate any of the basic needs (food, energy, whatever), or it becomes a commoddity and will see widespread use. Depending on the availabilty of the stuff in question, more people will get access to the stuff.

4 - Mythification

If enough cycles ofthese happen eventually people will move on and discard the stuff in question. After a while the stuff will be forgotten or become 'legacy' stuff. This will not guarantee disappreance as a small number of people will continue to use the stuff for various reasons, though they will be seen as odd and weird by their peers.

[Clistenes]

I think there are a few factors we have to take into account. For example, do they start being aware of the existance of the lowest level spells, cantrips, before discovering the true power of magic? If so, magic would be seen as something greatly useful but not threatening.

I mean, Mending can be used to make a fortune repairing antiquities and other expensive stuff that gets broken (the royal sword is chipped? No problem!), Detect Poison and Message could get you a position as royal secretary (detect poison in his food and send messages to his ambassadors? That sweet!). Add Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Dancing Light, Ghost Sound, Light, and you can become court illusionist.

Acid Splash an Ray of Frost, on the other hand, are less damaging than an arrow or bolt, and Daze and Flare aren't even harmful. People wouldn't be scared of magic because of those.

If magic started that way, I think it would quickly spread and Wizards would be seen as gifted assistants, entertainers and handymen. Valued professionals, artisans and scholars, but nothing more.

However, if magic started powerful, say if somebody discovered a book that teaches all levels of arcane spells... oh man! That would turn the world inside out! Those who discovered it would hog it, try to keep it for themselves and dedicate their lives to being able to master the high level spells. And if they didn't, and allowed other people to know about the true power of magic, people of ambition and power would go after them and try to kill them and steal their knowledge.

Another factor is, what kind of magic would be discovered? Wizardly magic only? Or Clerical magic too? Because having priests making miracles would REALLY change the face of the world. The power of churches would skyrocket, kings would either bend the knee or become anti-clerical and fight the churches in order to preserve their power. Different religions would fiercely compete with each other, sparking holy wars, and many churches would go against Wizards, seeing them as competition and labelling them as demon-worshippers...

[8BitNinja]

Another question, what kind of magic is it

Is it a fireball-chucking, old bearded man in robe fantasy magic, or a more "real" (depending on your beliefs, but for the sake of the question, I'm calling it real) dark arts used to summon demons and do very bad things magic. You mentioned artillery, wound healing, and other things of the like, but it could be said about both

[Amaril]

Wow, okay, lot of stuff to respond to. Hopefully I'm not overlooking anything.


population collapse
Once you start curing all the diseases and healing the wounds suddenly all at once the population will explode to ridiculous levels infant mortality and disease were a huge check on population. Unless you can also create food magically they will rapidly overpopulate wear-out the land and suffer a population collapse.

Do you think it's implausible that the people with access to magic might take measures to restrict the peasantry's access to stuff like this? Because I'm working this into a computer game, I had the thought that people are expected to pay tithes to the Temple for things like disease cures, which allows the player to do so, but keeps most of the common people from getting help due to the prohibitive expense.


It should be mentioned that magic system doesn't have such a hard "X spells per day" limit as the spell slots in D&D - more like drain in Shadowrun.

Yeah, spells are pretty much at-will for anyone who knows them. The combat system I plan to use for this game borrows heavily from Darkest Dungeon, which doesn't place any kind of limit on how often characters can use their abilities, so this magic has to fit that assumption. It doesn't even really cause any kind of drain effect on the user. The only downside is that more powerful or complicated spells can take a while to charge, such that they're not always practical in combat (something I'd gloss over for the gameplay, but acknowledge in the lore).


As far as military tactics, here's an opinion I haven't seen anybody else throw out there: if spells only go up to 3rd level, you'll probably see eldritch knights, not wizards. The warrior class will still want to be combat-capable after their spells/mana for the day run out, and just because the new magic is MORE effective doesn't mean swords are LESS effective. Soldiers are still taught hand-to-hand combat in the modern day (though admittedly not as extensively as it was to knights), they just don't use it as much as their other training.

The eldritch knight thing is very much what I want. Magic-users who are expected to fight are trained to wear armor and use close-combat weapons for when casting isn't viable. Think D&D clerics, not wizards.


It depends on several things :

- What can magic do at what cost ?

Wherever it is far superior than the mundane alternative, it will be used nearly exclusively instead. That might change the apparent technological level and thus the society. If it can provide easy food, you won't have a society where most peoples work the fields anymore. If it can provide fast and secure transportation, you suddenly get a globalized economy. And so on.

The result would not look very medieval at all, except for cases, where magic is either weak or costly and thus can't be used on a great scale

- What are the requirements for learning/using magic ?

This will determine, how many mages you have and if "mage" is a full time job or something where everybody learns some tricks that help with their real profession. and daily life. It also will impact the place of mages in the society.


Also, D&D magic is a terible magic system for worldbuilding, as it is far too focused on combat and adventurers and has few and bad rules for the important problems of whole societies.

I'm in a bit of an awkward position with this, because I haven't fully developed the limits of what magic can and can't do--in part because these limits are still being explored in-setting, but mostly just because I haven't taken the time yet. There are, however, some things that I know for sure it can do.


Blast enemies with force or magical fire, either single targets or small groups
Heal injuries in a matter of minutes, with potential permanent damage remaining in severe cases
Remove fatigue and restore a creature's stamina in a few seconds, without requiring close proximity
Enhance the physical abilities of nearby allies for up to a few minutes at a time
Move objects at a distance, up to maybe the size and weight of a house for the absolute strongest casters, requiring continued concentration while doing so
Create barriers of force to block attacks
Resurrect someone who's died within a few days, provided their body is mostly intact, through a ritual that takes about an hour (this only works on player characters, for complicated reasons I won't bother explaining unless someone wants to know)

There also may or may not be ways to summon beings from the cosmic beyond through extended and complex rituals with multiple participants, though I haven't decided fully how that works or whether anyone knows about it. One thing I know can't be done is teleportation (well, as far as anyone knows at the start of the story, though part of the game will involve magical teleportation being developed).


Here's a question for the OP

Do you want magic to go well, or not so well?

Short-term, it seems pretty risk-free. Long-term, it turns out magic (specifically the resurrection spell) weakens the barriers between the physical plane and the outer dream realms, allowing all kinds of horrors to pass through, but that only starts happening at the start of the story, and it takes people a while to see the connection.


If it was a true medieval world and the discoverers are a small group of scholars, then we can assume they're all in close geographical proximity and part of the same kingdom/empire/etc., yes?

Yeah, that's it. Did you happen to read my spoiler above? If that doesn't make things clearer, let me know and I can explain more.


Is magic learned or innate?

Can anyone, after long study and practice preform acts of magic, or will only a lucky few be born with a natural ability to use it?

It's learned; anyone can do it with the proper instruction. Learning magic basically means learning a new language, albeit one more complex and difficult than any other due to it being spoken by cosmic beings from beyond the physical realm and not intended for the human vocal structure.


I think there are a few factors we have to take into account. For example, do they start being aware of the existance of the lowest level spells, cantrips, before discovering the true power of magic? If so, magic would be seen as something greatly useful but not threatening.

I mean, Mending can be used to make a fortune repairing antiquities and other expensive stuff that gets broken (the royal sword is chipped? No problem!), Detect Poison and Message could get you a position as royal secretary (detect poison in his food and send messages to his ambassadors? That sweet!). Add Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Dancing Light, Ghost Sound, Light, and you can become court illusionist.

Acid Splash an Ray of Frost, on the other hand, are less damaging than an arrow or bolt, and Daze and Flare aren't even harmful. People wouldn't be scared of magic because of those.

If magic started that way, I think it would quickly spread and Wizards would be seen as gifted assistants, entertainers and handymen. Valued professionals, artisans and scholars, but nothing more.

However, if magic started powerful, say if somebody discovered a book that teaches all levels of arcane spells... oh man! That would turn the world inside out! Those who discovered it would hog it, try to keep it for themselves and dedicate their lives to being able to master the high level spells. And if they didn't, and allowed other people to know about the true power of magic, people of ambition and power would go after them and try to kill them and steal their knowledge.

Another factor is, what kind of magic would be discovered? Wizardly magic only? Or Clerical magic too? Because having priests making miracles would REALLY change the face of the world. The power of churches would skyrocket, kings would either bend the knee or become anti-clerical and fight the churches in order to preserve their power. Different religions would fiercely compete with each other, sparking holy wars, and many churches would go against Wizards, seeing them as competition and labelling them as demon-worshippers...

By the time anyone but the original discoverers learned that magic existed, it was already powerful enough that the rebellion leaders who wanted to get the magicians on their side thought it could turn the tide of their war against a far larger and stronger army. So, pretty far past cantrips, though not yet mastered to the same extent that it has been by the start of the game.

The standard D&D distinction of arcane vs. divine magic doesn't apply in this world. No one knows exactly where magic comes from; in the kingdom where the game is set, it's widely believed to be a blessing from God, and used only by the clergy, but there's no real proof that that's the case.


Another question, what kind of magic is it

Is it a fireball-chucking, old bearded man in robe fantasy magic, or a more "real" (depending on your beliefs, but for the sake of the question, I'm calling it real) dark arts used to summon demons and do very bad things magic. You mentioned artillery, wound healing, and other things of the like, but it could be said about both

It's closer to D&D magic. Powerful spells are a little slower and more unwieldy than in D&D--something like a fireball might take thirty seconds of continuous chanting to charge up, all of which has to be timed and pronounced perfectly and thus can't really be continued after, say, getting attacked--but it's totally possible to unleash some serious destruction during a battle without the need for prolonged rituals.

Does that answer everyone's questions?

[awa]

"Do you think it's implausible that the people with access to magic might take measures to restrict the peasantry's access to stuff like this? Because I'm working this into a computer game, I had the thought that people are expected to pay tithes to the Temple for things like disease cures, which allows the player to do so, but keeps most of the common people from getting help due to the prohibitive expense."

implausible no, but still a little unlikely, the thing is watching babies die is hard particularly when you know you can cure it or teach others to cure it, you would have a much harder time justifying the restriction on cure disease. Combat magic is different becuase it get opposed by other combat magic but healing it just works baring enemy attack. A healer basically need only know 2 spells one for disease and one for damage and you only need one person in a village to or town to have a dramatic effect and once one good hearted person know he will likely want to teach others.

So the only way to stop it would be to ruthlessly limit who can learn magic, and the problem there is that whoever does not has a massive short term advantage so much so that when they start to run into problems they will just take every one elses land.

That said what is in my opinion likely to happen is not the only thing that could to happen particularly if the first spells developed were much less benign the ban on peasant magic could be wide spread and deeply entrenched before the first healing spell is discovered

[8BitNinja]

Thanks for answering my question, what I think would happen is that society would be a little crazy in a short transition period. Probably the people who want to use it to help others would get into conflict with the power-hungry

[NRSASD]

One thing I'm curious about in your setting: Does magic have a cost on the user? In many settings, magic requires feats of tremendous mental strength and can be horrifically draining on the user. That's why D&D wizards have to rest after they spend their allotment of spells. In other cases, it draws power from an external source, like a God for clerics or others' lifeforces for Dark Sun wizards. These external sources are finite and carry grave consequences for the user (or his environment). This is designed to keep magic inline and prevent it from overrunning the setting. After all, what use is a knight when a wizard can set him on fire with a glance, and then do it a thousand more times without taking a break?

If magic is costless, magic users become superheroes in terms of how it effects the setting. No number of mundane troops stands a realistic chance of thwarting even a single mage.

The only way I can think of balancing the issue while keeping magic costless is making magic so time intensive and finicky that it only works under laboratory like conditions, which unfortunately makes it useless on the battlefield. Even in this case, collapsing populations due to an unexpected drop in mortality rates resulting in more mouths to feed is a distinct possibility, as awa has said.

Also, if there is no cost to user besides time, why are the churches charging such high tithes? Are they deliberately trying to antagonize the lower classes? If it becomes common knowledge that magic users could solve the world's problems (disease, hunger, and injury) and were just holding out on everyone, you might succeed in uniting both the upper and lower classes in a purge of the church.

[Clistenes]

If you want to flavor it a bit, you can take inspiration on what people really did believe about magic. Here is what the Spanish Inquisition believed about magic. The classified all magic users in three cathegories:

-Mages: Those are people who have studied and are able to give a pseudo-scientific explanation for the powers they claim to have. Think of John Dee, of Saint Germain, of Paracelsus, of Nostradamus, of Jabir ibn Hayyan, of Eugenio Torralba, of Nicholas Flammel...etcl. Technically speaking, it wasn't a crime; the limits between science and magic/superstition were unclear at the time, and the efficiency of your magic wasn't judged, only it's ideological basis. If you claimed that what you did was a "science", and gave a pseudo-scientific explanation to it, you were peachy... unless you overreached and became too famous or said something too dangerous (like that you were able to summon Saint Gabriel or to visit Heaven).

-Sorcerers: Folk magic. People repeated some gestures and magic words, and expected stuff to happen, but couldn't explain why or their explanation was bollocks even for Renaissance standards. It was considered a superstition, but not a dangerous one. It was barely punished or even prosecuted. Think of any "seer" or "shaman" who sells his or her services on TV. Giving orders to demons bordered witchcraft and was often prosecuted, but was still sorcery. Asking or begging for a demon's help, on the other hand, it WAS witchcraft.

-Witches/Warlocks: Demon worshippers. It was a vile heresy, but not a particulary dangerous one, since only crazy people would worship a demon anyways. Witches/warlocks were always prosecuted, but rarely executed, and they often were treated as insane people, not as criminals or heretics.

Most inquisitiors didn't believe in magic at all. The could accept the existance of witchcraft on a theoretical level, but they found hard to believe that a Good God would allow its existance. Some of them believed that some form of Mage's magic could be possible, but believed that most "Mages" were charlatans. As a general rule, they didn't believe in Sorcery at all.

[LokiRagnarok]

Well, any number of things can happen, though I imagine it will more or less boil down to the follwoing flow of events (slightly tongue in cheek, though far more accurate then you'd like, also this will fit for just about anything):


monopolisation
weaponisation
domestication
mythification

(useful stuff)


Interesting. You know, this closely marches what our computer science prof told us about a general technology lifecycle, which he claims most technology follows.

First, there is the enthusiast stage. The technology is only used by... well, nerds. It is probably not very usable prototypes and has a steep learning curve. People who use it are regarded as either avantgardists, daydreamers or hipsters, depending on whom you ask.

Then it gets used by professionals. People recognise the technology's value for their work and take the time to learn the technology. Outsode of the circle of people who need it for their work, probably most people haven't even heard of it - not because it is a tightly guarded secret, but because they don't care to know. Or do you know the intricacies of the billing software at your local grocery market?

Then there is the consumer phase. Basically, everybody and their mother and their child start using the technology for the most mundane stuff. Consider how novel tablet PCs were a few years ago. Now children aged five use them to shoot birds into castles or something.

Eventually, the technology starts getting swamped with new features. Remember VCRs? Did you know how to program yours, or was it hidden behind ten other submenus?
Then it becomes obsolete.

[8BitNinja]

A whole new occupation arises

Witch Hunters

[Amaril]

"Do you think it's implausible that the people with access to magic might take measures to restrict the peasantry's access to stuff like this? Because I'm working this into a computer game, I had the thought that people are expected to pay tithes to the Temple for things like disease cures, which allows the player to do so, but keeps most of the common people from getting help due to the prohibitive expense."

implausible no, but still a little unlikely, the thing is watching babies die is hard particularly when you know you can cure it or teach others to cure it, you would have a much harder time justifying the restriction on cure disease. Combat magic is different becuase it get opposed by other combat magic but healing it just works baring enemy attack. A healer basically need only know 2 spells one for disease and one for damage and you only need one person in a village to or town to have a dramatic effect and once one good hearted person know he will likely want to teach others.

So the only way to stop it would be to ruthlessly limit who can learn magic, and the problem there is that whoever does not has a massive short term advantage so much so that when they start to run into problems they will just take every one elses land.

That said what is in my opinion likely to happen is not the only thing that could to happen particularly if the first spells developed were much less benign the ban on peasant magic could be wide spread and deeply entrenched before the first healing spell is discovered

Well, they kind of do ruthlessly limit who can use magic. The magicians, or Chanters as they're called, comprise the membership of the highest-ranking branch of the Temple, the Chantry. The organization of the Temple I came up with for this world is inspired a lot by the Healing Church in Bloodborne; if you're familiar with that game, the Chantry functions a lot like the Choir, albeit slightly less evil. Their main goal is to use magic to find a way to contact their god, which they think will bring about paradise for all the world; most of their membership is pretty much confined to the great monastery that's been built on the site of the ancient city where magic was first discovered, where they spend their time digging deeper for more fragments of the Divine Speech and experimenting with the magic they already know. The ones that leave normally fall under one of two categories. Either they're being sent to serve in a noble household, in which case they're probably fairly weak and not all that valuable to the Chantry, or they're a member of the Sentinel Order, the sort of adventurer's guild that the player and their companions all belong to. Those in the latter category often do go around using their healing powers to benefit the common people wherever their travels take them, but they're so vanishingly rare that their actions would have little effect on wider population trends.

Chanters are chosen as children, and heavily indoctrinated, such that one going rogue and spreading magical knowledge illegally is basically unheard-of. If there are organizations outside of the Chantry that have access to magic, no one knows about them. Most people outside the kingdom the game takes place in have a hard time believing magic even exists.


One thing I'm curious about in your setting: Does magic have a cost on the user? In many settings, magic requires feats of tremendous mental strength and can be horrifically draining on the user. That's why D&D wizards have to rest after they spend their allotment of spells. In other cases, it draws power from an external source, like a God for clerics or others' lifeforces for Dark Sun wizards. These external sources are finite and carry grave consequences for the user (or his environment). This is designed to keep magic inline and prevent it from overrunning the setting. After all, what use is a knight when a wizard can set him on fire with a glance, and then do it a thousand more times without taking a break?

If magic is costless, magic users become superheroes in terms of how it effects the setting. No number of mundane troops stands a realistic chance of thwarting even a single mage.

The only way I can think of balancing the issue while keeping magic costless is making magic so time intensive and finicky that it only works under laboratory like conditions, which unfortunately makes it useless on the battlefield. Even in this case, collapsing populations due to an unexpected drop in mortality rates resulting in more mouths to feed is a distinct possibility, as awa has said.

Also, if there is no cost to user besides time, why are the churches charging such high tithes? Are they deliberately trying to antagonize the lower classes? If it becomes common knowledge that magic users could solve the world's problems (disease, hunger, and injury) and were just holding out on everyone, you might succeed in uniting both the upper and lower classes in a purge of the church.

Well, you've convinced me that I need to attach a cost to magic :smalltongue: Like I think I said before, the only reason I originally didn't was because I wanted to be able to fit it into a combat system based on Darkest Dungeon, which has no skill costs (well, in the system I'm working with, all combat skills consume a Focus meter that builds over time, but rounds are only a few seconds long, so it's not really much of a cost).

The problem is, I can't think of a good cost to attach to this kind of magic system. The spells are supposed to work by speaking the languages of beings from beyond to evoke the same power they wield...what if the act of speaking these languages also forces the Chanter's mind to temporarily perceive the same level of reality these beings do? Which, of course, will break the mind of someone not intensively trained and highly focused. I could justify this cost not being mechanically represented in-game by just assuming PC Chanters are only using magic they can do fairly safely (outside of particular plot moments, perhaps), and then say Chanters are generally reluctant to use magic when it's not strictly necessary because of this risk.

[NRSASD]

@Amaril: Ooo, I like the idea of Chanters perceiving this alternate dimension while spellcasting. How's this for a penalty: Chanting temporarily bridges the gap between our world and theirs. Chanters must remain absolutely focused while Chanting, for two reasons. One, to channel and shape the magic they're bringing into our world into the form they want. And two, to avoid detection by the natives of the other world. If a Chanter is distracted while Chanting (by injury, strong emotions, surprise, whatever), they risk a "feedback" effect. The most minor of these is possibly a few points of damage to the chanter for unintentionally drawing upon more magic then they were expecting, all the way up to direct possession by an alien intelligence. The more inexperienced Chanters can only say a word or two before drawing the other world's attention to themselves, while more advanced users are considerably more subtle about gathering power, allowing them to cast much more powerful spells with longer charge times. Once a Chanter stops Chanting, the other world is completely incapable of penetrating the barrier or locating the Chanter (so far as we know) but the effects in our world are permanent. I.e. if you got possessed the entity is free to continue joyriding in your body once you stop chanting. Every time a Chanter Chants, it draws power from a different area in the other dimension. This way a low level caster can cast dozens of spells in rapid fire succession without having the extradimensional natives setting up an ambush for him, but if he gets distracted he's in a world of hurt. This also justifies the gold cost. The Church isn't willing to risk these kind of hazards for a farmer's fifth son with the flu, but if they're promised a 15% share of his crop next year they'll consider it.

Also, have you heard of/played Age of Decadence? It has a different take on a similar premise which you might find useful.

[Socratov]

Interesting. You know, this closely marches what our computer science prof told us about a general technology lifecycle, which he claims most technology follows.

First, there is the enthusiast stage. The technology is only used by... well, nerds. It is probably not very usable prototypes and has a steep learning curve. People who use it are regarded as either avantgardists, daydreamers or hipsters, depending on whom you ask.

Then it gets used by professionals. People recognise the technology's value for their work and take the time to learn the technology. Outsode of the circle of people who need it for their work, probably most people haven't even heard of it - not because it is a tightly guarded secret, but because they don't care to know. Or do you know the intricacies of the billing software at your local grocery market?

Then there is the consumer phase. Basically, everybody and their mother and their child start using the technology for the most mundane stuff. Consider how novel tablet PCs were a few years ago. Now children aged five use them to shoot birds into castles or something.

Eventually, the technology starts getting swamped with new features. Remember VCRs? Did you know how to program yours, or was it hidden behind ten other submenus?
Then it becomes obsolete.
Stricktly speaking this is the case for just about anything: beginning, mid, end, obsolotion/disappearance/cleanup.

[Satinavian]

Blast enemies with force or magical fire, either single targets or small groups
Heal injuries in a matter of minutes, with potential permanent damage remaining in severe cases
Remove fatigue and restore a creature's stamina in a few seconds, without requiring close proximity
Enhance the physical abilities of nearby allies for up to a few minutes at a time
Move objects at a distance, up to maybe the size and weight of a house for the absolute strongest casters, requiring continued concentration while doing so
Create barriers of force to block attacks
Resurrect someone who's died within a few days, provided their body is mostly intact, through a ritual that takes about an hour (this only works on player characters, for complicated reasons I won't bother explaining unless someone wants to know)

There also may or may not be ways to summon beings from the cosmic beyond through extended and complex rituals with multiple participants, though I haven't decided fully how that works or whether anyone knows about it. One thing I know can't be done is teleportation (well, as far as anyone knows at the start of the story, though part of the game will involve magical teleportation being developed).

The blasting part is the least interesting. Either it is strong and then everyone will use it sooner or later and armies will be build around magic wielders. Or it is not that strong and then it won't change things.

Healing injuries is big. It won't change society as much as healing desease would, but everyone would want access to it and there is little reason they don't get it. Every noble likes when his subjects are more healthy and certainly won't restrict it. In fact, restricting healing magic is a pretty sure way to get the enmity of everyone else. If you want your magic users hated and reviled everywhere, give them healing and let them keep it secret. But overall, injuries are not that common and important on a grand scale, so it wouldn't really change society.

Removing fatigue ... I know, you are probably thinking about fighting and a fatigue ressource, but you are about to introduce a way for everyone to work all day and night. Which will be applied to everyone whose work is important enough to justify the magic. This will change society.

Enhancing physical attributes... depends how long, how much. Will it be enough to replace animals for work as buffed humans can do it better and cheaper ? Will it allow superhuman deeds wopening new options ?

Move objects ... Yes, would be important. Mostly for building. You could suddenly make really big structures with minimal work and fast. You will see it in use. Of course you also have to consider, if and how easy this allows to destroy fortifications or render them useless. Make this ability strong and you don't have any castles or fortresses in your kingdom anymore.

Force barriers ... irrelevant. Won't change anything.

Resurection ... a pretty big deal. It's impact depends a lot on who can be resurrected and why. Many people would want that power used. If that is not possible, they probably would demonize those where it works.



Well, they kind of do ruthlessly limit who can use magic. The magicians, or Chanters as they're called, comprise the membership of the highest-ranking branch of the Temple, the Chantry. The organization of the Temple I came up with for this world is inspired a lot by the Healing Church in Bloodborne; if you're familiar with that game, the Chantry functions a lot like the Choir, albeit slightly less evil. Their main goal is to use magic to find a way to contact their god, which they think will bring about paradise for all the world; most of their membership is pretty much confined to the great monastery that's been built on the site of the ancient city where magic was first discovered, where they spend their time digging deeper for more fragments of the Divine Speech and experimenting with the magic they already know. The ones that leave normally fall under one of two categories. Either they're being sent to serve in a noble household, in which case they're probably fairly weak and not all that valuable to the Chantry, or they're a member of the Sentinel Order, the sort of adventurer's guild that the player and their companions all belong to. Those in the latter category often do go around using their healing powers to benefit the common people wherever their travels take them, but they're so vanishingly rare that their actions would have little effect on wider population trends.

- If you are limiting magic to an extend where it basically doesn't exist for practical purposes, you obviously won't have a lot of influence of magic on the society
- This setup is guarantied to make the chantry basically the enemies of everyone, including their "allied" nobles.

It might be enough for a game. But i don't think it is particularly believable. Keeping secrets is difficult. Keeping secrets which are well known and sought after by the whole population is more difficult. Keeping the secrets if even the ruling classes would want them widely known as the knowledge would benefit them, is nearly impossible. Half the nobles would try to force chanters to teach them. Many other people would try to infiltrate the chantry. And then there are all the chanters who could in principle teach it. Not a single one of them was ever corrupt ?

[8BitNinja]

Here's something to think about, or rather the characters

What happens if the common populace gets their hands on this?

[Amaril]

@Amaril: Ooo, I like the idea of Chanters perceiving this alternate dimension while spellcasting. How's this for a penalty: Chanting temporarily bridges the gap between our world and theirs. Chanters must remain absolutely focused while Chanting, for two reasons. One, to channel and shape the magic they're bringing into our world into the form they want. And two, to avoid detection by the natives of the other world. If a Chanter is distracted while Chanting (by injury, strong emotions, surprise, whatever), they risk a "feedback" effect. The most minor of these is possibly a few points of damage to the chanter for unintentionally drawing upon more magic then they were expecting, all the way up to direct possession by an alien intelligence. The more inexperienced Chanters can only say a word or two before drawing the other world's attention to themselves, while more advanced users are considerably more subtle about gathering power, allowing them to cast much more powerful spells with longer charge times. Once a Chanter stops Chanting, the other world is completely incapable of penetrating the barrier or locating the Chanter (so far as we know) but the effects in our world are permanent. I.e. if you got possessed the entity is free to continue joyriding in your body once you stop chanting. Every time a Chanter Chants, it draws power from a different area in the other dimension. This way a low level caster can cast dozens of spells in rapid fire succession without having the extradimensional natives setting up an ambush for him, but if he gets distracted he's in a world of hurt. This also justifies the gold cost. The Church isn't willing to risk these kind of hazards for a farmer's fifth son with the flu, but if they're promised a 15% share of his crop next year they'll consider it.

Also, have you heard of/played Age of Decadence? It has a different take on a similar premise which you might find useful.

Okay, I like what I'm seeing, though it's not exactly the way I'd pictured things working. First, I want to get away from the idea that magic is about drawing on some kind of external power, or some form of energy. In this world, what we think of as magic is really just about greater knowledge; the more clearly you can perceive reality, the more ways to manipulate it you become aware of. Beings that have transcended our plane of consciousness (it's not really another world behind a barrier, it's just existence in dimensions of our own reality that we can't perceive) are able to see far more than we can, so they can do all kinds of things that seem impossible to us. So, what I'm thinking the Divine Speech does is allow Chanters to temporarily elevate their consciousness to see some of the dimensions these beings can see, and thus produce similar effects. The problem is that the human mind in its current form isn't built to function on these levels, and trying can destroy it; to do it safely requires intense mental discipline, which is gained through years of practice. I don't want possession by cosmic horrors to be one of the hazards, because it's important that people don't know such beings exist at the start of the story (it wouldn't be very Lovecraftian if it was common knowledge), but I think a similar effect can be achieved by just having the greater risk be permanent insanity. PC Chanters are battle-trained, meaning they know how to maintain the necessary focus during combat (they can only use chants they have enough Focus for), and out of combat, it's just assumed they can get their powers work without complications for the sake of game balance with other classes. For Chanters in the world at large, though, like you suggest, healing someone or helping them with magic in any way is always a risk, so they're not prepared to do it without some kind of compensation for the Chantry.

And no, I don't think I've heard of it. I'll check it out, thanks :smallsmile:


The blasting part is the least interesting. Either it is strong and then everyone will use it sooner or later and armies will be build around magic wielders. Or it is not that strong and then it won't change things.

I'm fine with the local kingdom's armies being built to include Chanters and maximize their potential. As I've said, they're currently the only world power that has access to them, so the realities of warfare in other lands is less effected (not coincidentally, our friendly local kingdom has been left relatively in peace since word got out that they suddenly had magic).


Healing injuries is big. It won't change society as much as healing desease would, but everyone would want access to it and there is little reason they don't get it. Every noble likes when his subjects are more healthy and certainly won't restrict it. In fact, restricting healing magic is a pretty sure way to get the enmity of everyone else. If you want your magic users hated and reviled everywhere, give them healing and let them keep it secret. But overall, injuries are not that common and important on a grand scale, so it wouldn't really change society.

Fair enough. Do you think the solution NRSASD and I are discussing would mitigate this?


Removing fatigue ... I know, you are probably thinking about fighting and a fatigue ressource, but you are about to introduce a way for everyone to work all day and night. Which will be applied to everyone whose work is important enough to justify the magic. This will change society.

Yeah, you got it, this is supposed to be the game's combat healing; your Health represents fatigue, and you suffer lasting injuries from losing enough of it that inflict penalties and have to be healed out of combat. Again, you're totally right about the social effects. What if I make it so that rather than just replenishing the body's energy, this effect just removes the subject's perception of their fatigue and pain, making them seemingly tireless in a fight, but if they keep it up for too long, they'll drop dead of exhaustion without warning? That should make it useful in short battles, but not for extended labor, no?


Enhancing physical attributes... depends how long, how much. Will it be enough to replace animals for work as buffed humans can do it better and cheaper ? Will it allow superhuman deeds wopening new options ?

Haven't really thought through the exact scale on this one yet. Now I'm thinking it could be similar to the combat healing thing, where it works by overriding the body's limitations; you get super-strength for a little while, but use it too long and you'll tear yourself apart.


Move objects ... Yes, would be important. Mostly for building. You could suddenly make really big structures with minimal work and fast. You will see it in use. Of course you also have to consider, if and how easy this allows to destroy fortifications or render them useless. Make this ability strong and you don't have any castles or fortresses in your kingdom anymore.

Yeah, okay. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I really want to have this, so I'll probably cut it out just to make things simpler. It wouldn't have had any effect on the gameplay, so it doesn't really matter.


Resurection ... a pretty big deal. It's impact depends a lot on who can be resurrected and why. Many people would want that power used. If that is not possible, they probably would demonize those where it works.

This is basically the centerpiece of the whole plot.

For all of history, a very small number of random people have been born with the Sight--the power of occasional prophetic dreams. This is the only form of magic that existed prior to the discovery of the Divine Speech (though people don't see it as magic, because it's just normal for this world). No one really knows where the Sight comes from or how it works; the truth is that people who have it have souls that are less strongly tied to their bodies and can move more independently in the dreamlands, where they can sometimes find bits of useful information. When magic was discovered, the Sight suddenly became hugely important, because it was found that people with it were the only ones who could be resurrected (it turns out having your soul be less dependent on your body also allows it to persist for a short time after you die, which means it can be brought back if you body is restored). Shortly after the kingdom was reestablished, a new branch of the Temple was founded, the Sentinel Order, with the purpose of gathering those with the Sight (now called the Blessing, with its new significance known) and coordinating them to work as traveling adventurers and protectors of the people, the idea being that they should be the ones going to face danger because they can come back if they die, while others can't. All the Blessed are expected to join the Sentinels, no matter their social standing; those who don't are cowards, shirking their God-given duty. The player and their party members are all Sentinels.

What no one knows is that pulling departed souls back into the physical dimensions draws the attention of the beings who dwell beyond, and allows them to follow and assume physical form. On top of that, those who go back and forth too many times are inevitably changed by the experience, and will eventually begin to lose themselves and go mad. The game begins just as this is starting to happen, and finding the cause and a way to stop it is the player's main goal throughout.


Here's something to think about, or rather the characters

What happens if the common populace gets their hands on this?

Well, with the consequences I think we're now starting to establish for using magic without the proper care, the unfortunate practitioners probably lose their minds. It seems like this is why magic has remained within the Chantry; a few people tried spreading it to those who hadn't been raised as Chanters, lives were destroyed, and everyone figured it was better to leave it to the experts.

Are we getting somewhere?

[8BitNinja]

Okay, I like what I'm seeing, though it's not exactly the way I'd pictured things working. First, I want to get away from the idea that magic is about drawing on some kind of external power, or some form of energy. In this world, what we think of as magic is really just about greater knowledge; the more clearly you can perceive reality, the more ways to manipulate it you become aware of. Beings that have transcended our plane of consciousness (it's not really another world behind a barrier, it's just existence in dimensions of our own reality that we can't perceive) are able to see far more than we can, so they can do all kinds of things that seem impossible to us.

Well, with the consequences I think we're now starting to establish for using magic without the proper care, the unfortunate practitioners probably lose their minds. It seems like this is why magic has remained within the Chantry; a few people tried spreading it to those who hadn't been raised as Chanters, lives were destroyed, and everyone figured it was better to leave it to the experts.

Are we getting somewhere?

1. So it's like the matrix? whatever it is, put Keeanu Reeves in it

2. Right there is one of the consequences of letting people mess with magic, they go crazy with it. That's something you can build a story off of

[Amaril]

1. So it's like the matrix? whatever it is, put Keeanu Reeves in it

2. Right there is one of the consequences of letting people mess with magic, they go crazy with it. That's something you can build a story off of

Yeah, basically The Matrix by way of Cthulhu :smalltongue:

And I like that, that ties in nicely with both the stuff I was already going for and the Lovecraftian inspiration in general.

[8BitNinja]

Yeah, basically The Matrix by way of Cthulhu :smalltongue:

And I like that, that ties in nicely with both the stuff I was already going for and the Lovecraftian inspiration in general.

Can people access this magic world through red and blue pills?

[NRSASD]

@Amaril: Sounds like a good plot! The current magic system looks good, but the only thing I'd adjust is add more tangible penalties for lower levels of failure. Sure, the ultimate screw up results in insanity, but maybe have something like wildmagic-lite effects occur if the Chanter loses control of minor magics. Damage to the caster, different spell effects, something.

Since the magic is just a manipulation of our current reality, maybe there are real energy costs. Rather than magic coming from somewhere else, or being tapped into, maybe all magic does is just accelerate or tweak natural processes to get results. Like your fatigue-overriding idea. Maybe lower level magics are all psychosomatic rather than physical effects; illusions and mind tricks rather than "actual" magic. For example, maybe 1st level Chanters can make someone feel like they're on fire, but only a high-level mage can actually set them on fire. Low level healing magic makes the subject feel better, but higher level magic actually regrows lost tissues instantly. Beginner enchantments make the target favorably disposed towards you, while high level spells directly control them, and so on.

[Amaril]

@Amaril: Sounds like a good plot! The current magic system looks good, but the only thing I'd adjust is add more tangible penalties for lower levels of failure. Sure, the ultimate screw up results in insanity, but maybe have something like wildmagic-lite effects occur if the Chanter loses control of minor magics. Damage to the caster, different spell effects, something.

Since the magic is just a manipulation of our current reality, maybe there are real energy costs. Rather than magic coming from somewhere else, or being tapped into, maybe all magic does is just accelerate or tweak natural processes to get results. Like your fatigue-overriding idea. Maybe lower level magics are all psychosomatic rather than physical effects; illusions and mind tricks rather than "actual" magic. For example, maybe 1st level Chanters can make someone feel like they're on fire, but only a high-level mage can actually set them on fire. Low level healing magic makes the subject feel better, but higher level magic actually regrows lost tissues instantly. Beginner enchantments make the target favorably disposed towards you, while high level spells directly control them, and so on.

Yeah, I didn't respond to your suggestion of minor penalties for minor failures because I thought it was pretty much fine as you described it. Thinking about it, though, I'll probably make the consequences a little more specific, and have them all be mental damage of some kind. Botching a basic chant might give the user a bad migraine, cause minor memory loss, stuff like that.

I see where you're going on the energy thing, and some of those are kind of right (for example, just numbing someone's pain is a lot quicker and easier than actually healing them), but I'm trying not to feel too bound to real physics. Remember, this magic is supposed to be Lovecraftian, so it needs to be capable of doing some really weird, unnerving, inexplicable stuff. Actually, part of what I want to explore with this setting is where we draw the line between awe and horror--when two bystanders see a Chanter call upon the cold white fire of distant stars to burn the flesh off an enemy's bones, one might describe the experience as horrific, the other as miraculous, and who's to say either is wrong? So yeah, I don't want it to be too predictable, or too seemingly natural. A hard-and-fast rule of weaker magic being psychosomatic and only stronger magic being actually physical is a little more ordered and logical than I want it to be.

[8BitNinja]

Is there a God/gods in this world? What are their opinions on magic? are they largely worshiped? To they grant power to their priest/clerics/other holy people. Does the church have an army or those who defend it by military means? (EX: Paladins, Crusaders)

Religion will definitely affect the reception of magic

[Amaril]

Is there a God/gods in this world? What are their opinions on magic? are they largely worshiped? To they grant power to their priest/clerics/other holy people. Does the church have an army or those who defend it by military means? (EX: Paladins, Crusaders)

Religion will definitely affect the reception of magic

That depends on what you consider a god.

So, the traditional religion of our friendly local kingdom is henotheistic, worshiping a deity sometimes called the Protector when it's not just God. The Protector supposedly chose the tribe that inhabits the kingdom and agreed to protect them in exchange for their faith. According to the Temple, the Divine Speech was taught to the first Chanters by the Protector, a gift that would allow the tribe to overthrow their conquerors and build a great civilization for themselves.

There are, of course, a lot of inaccuracies in this story--the biggest being that the Protector, at least the image of the Protector that people worship, doesn't exist. In this world, there are certain great beings of the cosmic realms beyond that may or may not be gods, depending on your definition, and it's likely that the Protector is based on one such entity in particular. The characters in the game will label this entity the Deceiver. The Deceiver travels from world to world, planting knowledge of the Divine Speech for mortals to discover and learn the ritual of resurrection, and then it waits. Eventually, the mortals will start resurrecting people, and the Deceiver will be able to start sending some of its weakest servants and offspring into their world; these minions are commanded to kill as many people with the resurrection potential as possible, so they have to be resurrected more times, allowing the cycle to repeat and grow. At the same time, whenever someone dies and is resurrected, the Deceiver has a chance to get its tentacles into their soul in the interim, marking them with a fraction of its being. With successive resurrections, these fragments will build up in them, eventually allowing the Deceiver to take control of the minds of all the most frequently resurrected people in the world. Once that happens, those people will be compelled to enact a ritual that breaks down the remaining divisions enough for the Deceiver to step through personally and...well, at that point things become uncertain. The obvious suggestion throughout the story is that it will consume all life on the planet, because this whole process is how it feeds. However, there are certain hints that what it really wants to do is help uplift humanity to its next stage of evolution, though this uplifting would come at the cost of being made into more beings like its servants, completely divorced from any concept of humanity we'd recognize (do we want to evolve if this is what it means?). The ultimate fate of humanity will be determined by the player's actions in battling the Deceiver.

So no, there aren't traditional gods. The beings that do exist are powerful in magic and can grant powers to others according to their mysterious desires, but magic doesn't inherently come from them, and it's not like the D&D-style cleric-deity relationship.

[goto124]

So the 'god' gives powers to people to eventually assimilate humans and gain more power for itself. Neat!

[lelrekt2142]

The practical applications of magic are kind of one of the "plot holes" of D&D, you should probably just ignore them and pretend everyone is an idiot with no idea of what magic can actually do. It worked for Harry Potter.

[8BitNinja]

Okay, so what I'm getting is that people enter the matrix to get powers and religious figures don't really have powers

Am I correct?

[Amaril]

Okay, so what I'm getting is that people enter the matrix to get powers and religious figures don't really have powers

Am I correct?

They have powers, they just don't come from the place everyone thinks they do, and have nothing to do with religion.

[8BitNinja]

They have powers, they just don't come from the place everyone thinks they do, and have nothing to do with religion.

So what I'm getting at here is that wizards control everything from politics, to religion, to commerce, to medicine and everything else

it's a Magicracy

[ILM]

Yeah, that's it. Did you happen to read my spoiler above? If that doesn't make things clearer, let me know and I can explain more.
Oh. No, no I didn't. It doesn't really change my basic premise though: if it can spread, then it will and eventually become the new normal; if it can't it will be a nexus of conflict until it's eventually stamped out. Look at your setting: the discoverers were enlisted in the rebellion, and from there control of magic went to the clergy - which is fine, but I guarantee that someone in your world is plotting to wrestle it from them. Meanwhile the clergy it doing its best only to teach magic to their own, but there's bound to be some guy who decides to go rogue and secretly teach his best friend/lover/child/etc...

[Grinner]

Not much.

Being able to work magic in the fashion of D&D is predicated on being able to read and having the time and inclination to study. While there appears to be controversy on the exact nature of medieval literacy, with the ability to read and the ability to write apparently being two different things, it's pretty well-agreed that most people were illiterate, period. This precludes any magical peasant revolts for a few centuries.

Moving on, scholars were few and far in Europe during the middle ages. You might be able to justify knightly training including spellwork, since spells on the personal scale are quite powerful. However, 3rd level spells in D&D 3.5 really aren't that powerful in the grand scheme of things. Combined with limited castings per day and the existence of various methods of countering spells, the general movement of humanity for the next few centuries might very well stay its course, just with more style and aplomb.

[Amaril]

So what I'm getting at here is that wizards control everything from politics, to religion, to commerce, to medicine and everything else

it's a Magicracy

Not officially, but in a lot of ways, sort of. I'm not really sure I can go into detail, because I haven't thought everything through.


Oh. No, no I didn't. It doesn't really change my basic premise though: if it can spread, then it will and eventually become the new normal; if it can't it will be a nexus of conflict until it's eventually stamped out. Look at your setting: the discoverers were enlisted in the rebellion, and from there control of magic went to the clergy - which is fine, but I guarantee that someone in your world is plotting to wrestle it from them. Meanwhile the clergy it doing its best only to teach magic to their own, but there's bound to be some guy who decides to go rogue and secretly teach his best friend/lover/child/etc...

Yeah, I think you're right. You do get occasional rogue Chanters (I want to call them apostates now, but Dragon Age got there first) trying to spread secrets illegally. I think dealing with them is a job that gets passed along to the Sentinels, since they're the closest thing the Temple has to a church militant. That should make for some interesting quests.


Not much.

Being able to work magic in the fashion of D&D is predicated on being able to read and having the time and inclination to study. While there appears to be controversy on the exact nature of medieval literacy, with the ability to read and the ability to write apparently being two different things, it's pretty well-agreed that most people were illiterate, period. This precludes any magical peasant revolts for a few centuries.

Moving on, scholars were few and far in Europe during the middle ages. You might be able to justify knightly training including spellwork, since spells on the personal scale are quite powerful. However, 3rd level spells in D&D 3.5 really aren't that powerful in the grand scheme of things. Combined with limited castings per day and the existence of various methods of countering spells, the general movement of humanity for the next few centuries might very well stay its course, just with more style and aplomb.

I'll clarify for anyone who hasn't been reading my spoilers that this magic system doesn't use spells-per-day. You're right, though, the literacy thing is something I'd imagined being a big limiting factor. Most of the peasantry in this world is illiterate, and while one doesn't strictly need to be literate to learn the Divine Speech (it has no magical properties when written, only when spoken), the ineffectiveness of trying to widely spread knowledge of it in written form makes it a lot easier for the Chantry to keep a lid on it.

[8BitNinja]

If wizards are so influential, surely there will be one or even a dozen bad eggs that will attempt to take over

[Satinavian]

Yeah, I think you're right. You do get occasional rogue Chanters (I want to call them apostates now, but Dragon Age got there first) trying to spread secrets illegally. I think dealing with them is a job that gets passed along to the Sentinels, since they're the closest thing the Temple has to a church militant. That should make for some interesting quests.When being hunted the obvious thing for rogue casters would be to leave the sphere of influence of the chantry. Which usually means leaving the kingdom and teaching the kingdoms enemies magic. The second best option would be to teach magic in secrecy, which usually works until one of the illegal pupils uses it too much and gets noticed. But by then you will already have several non chanters who can do magic and most of them would be able to teach it further, if they get away.

Really, the whole "keep it secret"-Stick only works for a limited time. Which actually might be enough to bridge the time between the rebellion and whenever your game takes place. But the whole arrangement is not stable at all.

[FatR]

I've prepared a setting based on the sudden appearance of magic for a game not so long ago. The premise was different from OPs' in that full-blown DnD magic (and the rest of DnD package, including bodies of superhuman vitality and ability to gain experience from challenges) was based solely on contracts offered to random strong-willed and ambitious people in their hours of greatest need, rather than learned.

Needless to say, what previously was a low-power medieval setting went straight to hell in the backstory. Normal people could offer no meaningful resistance to all but the weakest of magic-users. A few of the latter got controlled by existing power structures, but the randomness of their appearance and their inherent disposition ensured that most refused to work with the old feudal system. After overthrowing previous lords and kings, magic-users started fighting with each other for power, and then they started to realize that fighting each other was the only real way to raise their magical power past a certain extent.

By now the world is a miserable place. Its core part? Dominated by a cabal of magic-users dedicated to behaving as stereotypical evil sorcerers - terrorizing the population and provoking strife. Not just because exercising power over people gives them funny feelings, mind you. They also want to ensure suffering and trials for people, so that there will be no shortage of situations where new potential magic users might be offered contracts. And then the cabal would farm nascent magicians for XP. The secret organization dedicated to overthrowing the cabal? A renegade cabal member wishing to be the last mage standing runs it. The theocracy next door? As you may guess, their Prophet of God is a secret magic-user, who maintains constant witch hunt in his domain. Again, so he can farm magicians capable of overcoming his servants for XP.

[Amaril]

When being hunted the obvious thing for rogue casters would be to leave the sphere of influence of the chantry. Which usually means leaving the kingdom and teaching the kingdoms enemies magic. The second best option would be to teach magic in secrecy, which usually works until one of the illegal pupils uses it too much and gets noticed. But by then you will already have several non chanters who can do magic and most of them would be able to teach it further, if they get away.

Really, the whole "keep it secret"-Stick only works for a limited time. Which actually might be enough to bridge the time between the rebellion and whenever your game takes place. But the whole arrangement is not stable at all.

Well, even if it's not necessarily the most logical thing, I think I'm comfortable saying they've managed to keep it secret for this long, even if they can't forever (which is definitely true). It helps that a rogue Chanter trying to leave he kingdom would have to contend with the dangerous nature of travel in this world--it's very much a points of light situation, with settlements infrequent, few roads, and large stretches of wilderness infested with dangerous beasts.


I've prepared a setting based on the sudden appearance of magic for a game not so long ago. The premise was different from OPs' in that full-blown DnD magic (and the rest of DnD package, including bodies of superhuman vitality and ability to gain experience from challenges) was based solely on contracts offered to random strong-willed and ambitious people in their hours of greatest need, rather than learned.

Needless to say, what previously was a low-power medieval setting went straight to hell in the backstory. Normal people could offer no meaningful resistance to all but the weakest of magic-users. A few of the latter got controlled by existing power structures, but the randomness of their appearance and their inherent disposition ensured that most refused to work with the old feudal system. After overthrowing previous lords and kings, magic-users started fighting with each other for power, and then they started to realize that fighting each other was the only real way to raise their magical power past a certain extent.

By now the world is a miserable place. Its core part? Dominated by a cabal of magic-users dedicated to behaving as stereotypical evil sorcerers - terrorizing the population and provoking strife. Not just because exercising power over people gives them funny feelings, mind you. They also want to ensure suffering and trials for people, so that there will be no shortage of situations where new potential magic users might be offered contracts. And then the cabal would farm nascent magicians for XP. The secret organization dedicated to overthrowing the cabal? A renegade cabal member wishing to be the last mage standing runs it. The theocracy next door? As you may guess, their Prophet of God is a secret magic-user, who maintains constant witch hunt in his domain. Again, so he can farm magicians capable of overcoming his servants for XP.

This sounds really cool. How did that game turn out?

[8BitNinja]

I have always pictured magic has a force mostly if not solely used for evil, with people drunk on power and whatnot