"Best" 5 man group

[Boci]

So me and some friends are going to take part in a challenge called Dawn of Heroes, a one off D&D 5 game at level 6. Since surviving and "winning" is the primary challenge here, I was wondering what sort of a group people recommend. We can only use the PHB, no other supplements.

So far, me and my group agrees on:

1. Healbot cleric. Can't do much if you aren't alive.
2. Mooncircle druid. Secondary healer and other useful spells, and the damage soak of wildshape.


But then we have a difference of opinion. I think the following should complete our
3. Rogue/bard with expertised perception. Could svae us a lot of hurt in the long run.
4. Full arcane caster, preferably a Wizard.
5. Paladin, likely shield and shield master, since GWF rerolling 1s and 2s for divine smite may not be allowed by the GM.

My friend however disagrees, and wants to go maximum DPS with the remaining 3 positions, so something like:
3. Assassin
4. Sorcerer
5. Warlock/Sorceror/Fighter - some combination I don't fully understand, with the goal of getting twin eldrtich blast with cha on each off as many times as possible in one round.

Maybe this is just lingering 3.5 instinct, but I'm skepticle of how vialbe such a DPS aproach is, and the multiclass things seem a bit gimmicky, as once its blown is quicken spell and action surge it doesn't seem to offer that much.

So what does everyone here think? Also any other tips on party building? I definitely think we should double up on perception (at least), and for races I'm thinking either everyone goes feat variant human, or we have feet variant human x 3, elf (high or wood) x 2.

[Lines]

If you're after numbers healed, try lore bard 6 and grab aura of vitality.

[Boci]

If you're after numbers healed, try lore bard 6 and grab aura of vitality.

Is that instead of the healbot cleric/druid, or in addition (which would imply you too advise against the maximum DSP route)?

[Lines]

Is that instead of the healbot cleric/druid, or in addition (which would imply you too advise against the maximum DSP route)?

Instead of, sort of. High damage is good, the faster you kill the less you risk, but there's no point taking JUST high damage when you can get high damage in conjuction with other things.

To my mind:
Moon druid 5, life cleric 1 (level 3 spells like conjure animals, amazing goodberry healing - CR 2 wildshape forms aren't much better than 1)
Lore bard 6 (aura of vitality, fireball)
Battlemaster fighter 6 (variant human, start with crossbow master, at level 6 you'll have 20 dex)
Necromancer wizard 6 (assuming you have a day to animate a bunch of skeletons)
Vengeance paladin 6 (+saves, healing, damage, tank, the full package)

[Giant2005]

One of the characters should be a Paladin for the save aura. That part is mandatory as far as I am concerned. For everyone else, you have some options.

1. 3 Clerics of whatever variety you like and 1 Druid 5/Life Cleric 1. The Druid can take care of out of combat healing via Goodberry spam and in combat he can place a circular Wind Wall around the group to protect them from ranged attacks. The Clerics all put up Spirit Guardians so anything that comes close enough to harm them will be eaten alive before they are able to do anything. You can replace any/all of the Clerics with Lore Bards and get Spirit Guardians via magical secrets if you prefer, and it would even be better if your DM is okay with steeds summoned via Find Steed also getting their own Spirit Guardians.

2. 4 Enchantment Wizards (Or at least 2 levels of Enchantment + whatever else you want). The basic idea is for each Wizard to take 1 enemy out of the fight each via Hypnotic Gaze and focus fire one down at a time with their bonus actions via Flaming Sphere (or any other bonus action spell).

3. 4 characters that each have 2 levels of Warlock and 4 levels of whatever else you want. Darkness + Devil's Sight all around (except for the poor Paladin).

4. 2 Battle Master Fighters and 2 Rogues. By using Commander's Strike, your Rogues can pull off two sneak attacks each per round.

[PoeticDwarf]

Life cleric
Moondruid
Valor bard
Bladesinger
Bearbarian

I'd go for these

[Boci]

Instead of, sort of. High damage is good, the faster you kill the less you risk, but there's no point taking JUST high damage when you can get high damage in conjuction with other things.

To my mind:
Moon druid 5, life cleric 1 (level 3 spells like conjure animals, amazing goodberry healing - CR 2 wildshape forms aren't much better than 1)
Lore bard 6 (aura of vitality, fireball)
Battlemaster fighter 6 (variant human, start with crossbow master, at level 6 you'll have 20 dex)
Necromancer wizard 6 (assuming you have a day to animate a bunch of skeletons)
Vengeance paladin 6 (+saves, healing, damage, tank, the full package)

That seems pretty good, I'll pass on the list to the others. Though maybe necromancer could be replaced an enchancer?


One of the characters should be a Paladin for the save aura. That part is mandatory as far as I am concerned. For everyone else, you have some options.

1. 3 Clerics of whatever variety you like and 1 Druid 5/Life Cleric 1. The Druid can take care of out of combat healing via Goodberry spam and in combat he can place a circular Wind Wall around the group to protect them from ranged attacks. The Clerics all put up Spirit Guardians so anything that comes close enough to harm them will be eaten alive before they are able to do anything. You can replace any/all of the Clerics with Lore Bards and get Spirit Guardians via magical secrets if you prefer, and it would even be better if your DM is okay with steeds summoned via Find Steed also getting their own Spirit Guardians.

2. 4 Enchantment Wizards (Or at least 2 levels of Enchantment + whatever else you want). The basic idea is for each Wizard to take 1 enemy out of the fight each via Hypnotic Gaze and focus fire one down at a time with their bonus actions via Flaming Sphere (or any other bonus action spell).

3. 4 characters that each have 2 levels of Warlock and 4 levels of whatever else you want. Darkness + Devil's Sight all around (except for the poor Paladin).

I'd be a bit skeptical about basing the entire party around a single gimmick, no matter how powerful it is. The cleric/druid spell recommendation seems solid though, I'll note them down and check the steed trick with the GM.


Life cleric
Moondruid
Valor bard
Bladesinger
Bearbarian

I'd go for these

Solid list, but no blade singer, PHB only. What's the level split on the bearbarian? Moon driud 2 / barbarian 4?

[Ogre Mage]

I would recommend:

Paladin 6
Moon Druid 6
Lore Bard 6 (get expertise in perception and stealth, proficiency in thieves tools)
Wizard 6 (Abjurer, Diviner or Evoker)
Cleric 6 (Light or Life Domain)

The wizard and cleric can split up the blasting and control duties. The paladin and moon druid tank. Lore bard supports and is the group skill monkey.

[Tarvil]

Healbots aren't that good in 5 ed. Best healing is healing between encounters, not during them. For my dream team (if I'm limited to PHB), I'd go with something like that:

1: Totem Barbarian with Polearm master and Sentinel - Basically, hit this guy with a lot of HP and resistance, or he'll hit you. Moon Druid with Sentinel works too. Or multiclass of these two.
2: Oath of Devotion Paladin with GWM - Nice Accuracy buff, bonus to saving throws, Bless, Sanctuary, great nova, non-random heal and disease removal.
3: Divination Wizard - Usual Wizard stuff + Portent
4: Lore Bard with Fireball and Aura of Vitality as Magical Secret - Skillmonkey with nice healing, great buffs (faerie fire!) and debuffs.
5: Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric with observant feat. - A lot of HP, great buffs, great at spotting things, Spirit Guardians, can protect allies from elements, heal in spare time and use WIS as attack stat (so more CON for him).

Plan is simple.

Paladin, Barbarian and Cleric are frontliners, Paladin Bless eveyone (except Bard maybe, he should do just fine without it) and smack things. Barbarian rage (duh) smack things, smack things that come too close and things which try to smack Cleric or Paladin. If he feel creative, he can use his advantage in atletics to shove enemies with his extra polearm attack. Cleric smack things with his Druid Shialala club (you know what I mean), spiritual weapon and Spirit Guardians.

Wizard put on his robe and Wizard hat, zzap small guys with cantrips, control battlefield, occasionally blasting someone with fireball.

Bard pick locks, disarm traps, make enemy's attacks miss, give advantage to his friends. Sometimes he cast fireball and make things die.

Cleric, Bard and Wizard are MVP during rests. Wizard make sure that your rests won't be interrupted thanks to Leomund's Tiny Hut, Bars use Song of Rest (or Aura of Vitality during long rests), Cleric have this nice Prayer of Healing spell.

[Lines]

That seems pretty good, I'll pass on the list to the others. Though maybe necromancer could be replaced an enchancer?


Don't see why, the necromancer's skeletons are really useful.

[JellyPooga]

1: Totem Barbarian with Polearm master and Sentinel - Basically, hit this guy with a lot of HP and resistance, or he'll hit you
2: Oath of Devotion Paladin with GWM - Nice Accuracy buff, bonus to saving throws, Bless, Sanctuary, great nova, non-random heal and disease removal.
3: Divination Wizard - Usual Wizard stuff + Portent
4: Lore Bard with Fireball and Aura of Vitality as Magical Secret - Skillmonkey with nice healing, great buffs (faerie fire!) and debuffs. I don't know if you'll gain levels in this challenge. If yes, take two levels of warlock after that for consistent souce of damage
5: Hill Dwarf Nature Cleric with observant feat. - A lot of HP, great buffs, great at spotting things, Spirit Guardians, can protect allies from elements, heal in spare time and use WIS as attack stat (so more CON for him).

Pretty much this.

The only thing I might differ on is multiclassing that Barbarian into Moon Druid. If we're limited to level 6 and a one-shot, then Barbarian 2/Moon Druid 4 is a better Tank than straight Barbarian 6 and has spell slots to back it up. You've also got the option to dump Dex hard and don't have to worry about Str over 13, which if we're point-buying is a massive boon.

[JAL_1138]

It wouldn't work for a Level 6 game, but for a higher-level game:

Ranged Valor Bard with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter (steal Ranger spells at 10th), Melee Valor Bard with two levels of Paladin for Smite purposes and with Polearm Master or GWM, Lore Bard, Lore Bard MC'd Sorcerer or Warlock for a level or two, and Lore Bard.

No, seriously.

After Level 12, this group would be highly effective. You've got enough Expertise to cover most of the skill list, a massive bonus to initiative, enough damage from the Valor Bards and the MC'd Lore Bard to compete with pretty much any other party (the ranged VB is dealing damage like a 20th-level Ranger much sooner and with more spell slots; the melee bard with Paladin levels is dealing nearly identical damage to a Paladin, with more spell slots), all the best spells from every class, enough debuffing that enemies are practically guaranteed to fail saves and miss attacks, excellent healing and buffing ability...about all it lacks is HP and AC, and it's got ways to mitigate that somewhat (especially once True Polymorph or Wish+Simulacrum cheese becomes available). At level 20, it's five 9th-level casters who can all choose any 9th-level spells in the game.

[MaxWilson]

But then we have a difference of opinion. I think the following should complete our
3. Rogue/bard with expertised perception. Could svae us a lot of hurt in the long run.
4. Full arcane caster, preferably a Wizard.
5. Paladin, likely shield and shield master, since GWF rerolling 1s and 2s for divine smite may not be allowed by the GM.

My friend however disagrees, and wants to go maximum DPS with the remaining 3 positions, so something like:
3. Assassin
4. Sorcerer
5. Warlock/Sorceror/Fighter - some combination I don't fully understand, with the goal of getting twin eldrtich blast with cha on each off as many times as possible in one round.

Aren't the first two basically the same thing?

3. Assassin with Perception/Stealth Expertise.
4. Full arcane caster (sorcerer)
5. (controversial)

I'm guessing this is a Fighter 2/Warlock 2/Sorcerer X, who can sometimes do three hexed Eldritch Blasts in the same round.

I'm assuming that you want the Paladin for the Aura of Protection to saves, and for spells like Bless and Wrathful Smite. I don't see any reason why you couldn't compromise on a Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer X. You wouldn't get any Action Surge but in other ways it would play as a Paladin with hefty save bonuses to everyone nearby who also does a ton of ranged DPR and can Repelling Blast enemies through Walls of Fire and off cliffs and stuff.

[Giant2005]

I don't see any reason why you couldn't compromise on a Paladin 6/Warlock 2/Sorcerer X.

The characters are level 6.

[MaxWilson]

The characters are level 6.

[Re-reads OP] You're right, that's an excellent reason. :)

[lebefrei]

I'd drop the idea of clerics as healbots in good games. Life is best with a party that can't pick up the healing slack. Other domains have a lot more utility than that, and a "perfect" party in 5e should have a lore bard and a paladin in it. That gives you 3 healers that can also bring a lot more to the table.

Great party is definitely cleric, wizard, paladin, moon druid, lore bard

You have every necessity covered with that. The druid can scout anything, you have two great faces, you can tank and damage, heal any wound, get almost every spell available, pass every skill check, have utility for every fight.

That is the sort of party I want to see when people sit at my table, because I like to challenge a party. When they sit down and I find two monks, a fighter and a warlock I know I can't just throw anything at them.

[MaxWilson]

I'd drop the idea of clerics as healbots in good games. Life is best with a party that can't pick up the healing slack. Other domains have a lot more utility than that, and a "perfect" party in 5e should have a lore bard and a paladin in it. That gives you 3 healers that can also bring a lot more to the table.

Great party is definitely cleric, wizard, paladin, moon druid, lore bard

You have every necessity covered with that. The druid can scout anything, you have two great faces, you can tank and damage, heal any wound, get almost every spell available, pass every skill check, have utility for every fight.

That is the sort of party I want to see when people sit at my table, because I like to challenge a party. When they sit down and I find two monks, a fighter and a warlock I know I can't just throw anything at them.

Lore Bard 6 is a better healer than Life Cleric 6, anyway, thanks to Aura of Vitality.

[Sir cryosin]

If you want a nova DPR here the hole build is base off of rouge assassin's auto crit and eldritch blast. So 3 lvs of rouge assassin then 2 lvs of warlock for agonizing blast and eldritch spear. Then 2lvs of fighter for action surge. Then 3 lvs of sorcerer for quicken spell and the one to double spells range. Then what ever else you want to further lv. So this is how it happens you go sthelth scout ahead of the party when you see a enemy cast eldritch blast quicken it then cast it again then action surge to cast eldritch blast a third time if your DM let wait 6 sec so you can set up hex even better. So your lv 10 that 6d10×2+30 plus 6d6 if you can get hex in.

[MaxWilson]

If you want a nova DPR here the hole build is base off of rouge assassin's auto crit and eldritch blast. So 3 lvs of rouge assassin then 2 lvs of warlock for agonizing blast and eldritch spear. Then 2lvs of fighter for action surge. Then 3 lvs of sorcerer for quicken spell and the one to double spells range. Then what ever else you want to further lv. So this is how it happens you go sthelth scout ahead of the party when you see a enemy cast eldritch blast quicken it then cast it again then action surge to cast eldritch blast a third time if your DM let wait 6 sec so you can set up hex even better. So your lv 10 that 6d10×2+30 plus 6d6 if you can get hex in.

You're getting three castings in, each for 2 bolts of 2d10+5 each due to auto-crit, so wouldn't that be 12d10+30+12d6?

[EvanescentHero]

Solid list, but no blade singer, PHB only. What's the level split on the bearbarian? Moon driud 2 / barbarian 4?

I think he means bear totem barbarian.

[bid]

5. Warlock/Sorceror/Fighter - some combination I don't fully understand, with the goal of getting twin eldrtich blast with cha on each off as many times as possible in one round.
That'd be sorc 3 / lock 2 / fighter 2, which can shoot 6 beams of 1d10+3 once per short rest (using action surge and both warlock slots for the 2 SP to quicken).

You can't twin EB after level 5, it has 2 targets.

[Sir cryosin]

You're getting three castings in, each for 2 bolts of 2d10+5 each due to auto-crit, so wouldn't that be 12d10+30+12d6?

Yes and I has that just typed it wrong. Buy I wasnt sure if hex got cut dice to.

[Boci]

Okay, thank you all for your suggests, I was very impressed. However my friend, who it turns out has DM-ed the modul used for Heroes of Dawn twice and now wants to beat it as a player, says the parties that do best are 2 support +3 DSP, as the challenges are not varied or complex enough for this approach to ever be insufficient.

He does however like the idea of merging the two support character in a single Druid 5 / Life Cleric 1, and then the remaining 4 being DSP. The same DPS class/classes combination, based on which class combination turn out to mathematically have the highest damage output per long rest .

Gotta admit, I'm a bit less enthusiastic about the whole idea now, but I said I'd play and its only a one shot. It can still be fun.

[Tarvil]

Just remember that you should live through whole adventuring day. Make sure that your "DPS" won't be out of resources after second encounter ;).

You should seriously consider Lore Bard. This guys save lifes.

[khachaturian]

another thing to think about is the role of short rests

you could have a
- goliath fighter. recharge second wind, action surge, superiority dice, damage absorption ability
- moon druid. recharge wildshape
- warlock. nuff said
- monk. recharge ki points
- cleric. recharge channel divinity, lots of good options here

and if the warlock picks up inspiring leader...

the only problem is that you may piss off the dm, since the CR system doesn't really take this into account

[EvanescentHero]

- goliath fighter. recharge second wind, action surge, superiority dice, damage absorption ability

PHB only. No goliaths.

[MaxWilson]

another thing to think about is the role of short rests

you could have a
- goliath fighter. recharge second wind, action surge, superiority dice, damage absorption ability

Might also be worth considering a Fighter 1/Infernal Bladelock 5 here instead of a pure fighter. You lose out on action surge and one ASI but replace it with Short Rest-based Vampiric Touch plus temp HP on kill. You still get an Extra Attack via Thirsting Blade.

And since it's PHB only, pick a variant human with Heavy Armor Master or GWM instead of a Goliath.

[Ogre Mage]

I'd drop the idea of clerics as healbots in good games. Life is best with a party that can't pick up the healing slack. Other domains have a lot more utility than that, and a "perfect" party in 5e should have a lore bard and a paladin in it. That gives you 3 healers that can also bring a lot more to the table.

Great party is definitely cleric, wizard, paladin, moon druid, lore bard

You have every necessity covered with that. The druid can scout anything, you have two great faces, you can tank and damage, heal any wound, get almost every spell available, pass every skill check, have utility for every fight.

That is the sort of party I want to see when people sit at my table, because I like to challenge a party. When they sit down and I find two monks, a fighter and a warlock I know I can't just throw anything at them.

I agree, that was the party I listed as well. We almost had this party in my Out of the Abyss AL group except that instead of a moon druid one player chose to run some lame-a$$ monk. But even with him being a relative dead weight the party was still effective.

[PeteNutButter]

Might be putting your eggs in one basket but consider a party of stealthy PCs. If your healer is a bard he can take expertise in stealth. Make the paladin a dex pally since he is single classed and have him pick up stealth from background/human. Everyone but the pally should have about +10 to stealth, and he'll have +7.

The rest of the party has 3+ lvls of assassin. You can have assasin 4/fighter 2. Or Assassin 3/Sorc 3. Or assassin 5/fighter 1(just for archery style). Or assassin 4/warlock 2.

The idea is if you have 3 or more PCs act on a surprise round you can likely destroy most if not all of the enemies with auto-crits before they ever get to act.

[MaxWilson]

While you're at it, consider a party of all-Mobile PCs. It makes the game incredibly easy if you're using standard cyclic initiative.

[coredump]

You guys are over thinking it. Just make sure everyone dips 2-3 levels in Warlock and gets Devil Sight, then make sure someone(s) can cast darkness on a fairly regular basis.

When everyone one of you has advantage, and everyone one of them has disadvantage......

Do whatever you want with the other 4 levels each.



In a similar vein..... going all Abjuration wizards can be interesting also, it doesn't do really well until higher levels, but with a party of 5, the bad guys have to deal 80 pts of damage before anyone loses any real HPs.

[AmbientRaven]

Light Cleric 6
Moon Druid 6
Warlock/Bard 2/4
Paladin/Sorcorer 2/4
Arcane Trickster/Div Wizard 4/2

[Ashrym]

So me and some friends are going to take part in a challenge called Dawn of Heroes, a one off D&D 5 game at level 6. Since surviving and "winning" is the primary challenge here, I was wondering what sort of a group people recommend. We can only use the PHB, no other supplements.

So far, me and my group agrees on:

1. Healbot cleric. Can't do much if you aren't alive.
2. Mooncircle druid. Secondary healer and other useful spells, and the damage soak of wildshape.


But then we have a difference of opinion. I think the following should complete our
3. Rogue/bard with expertised perception. Could svae us a lot of hurt in the long run.
4. Full arcane caster, preferably a Wizard.
5. Paladin, likely shield and shield master, since GWF rerolling 1s and 2s for divine smite may not be allowed by the GM.

My friend however disagrees, and wants to go maximum DPS with the remaining 3 positions, so something like:
3. Assassin
4. Sorcerer
5. Warlock/Sorceror/Fighter - some combination I don't fully understand, with the goal of getting twin eldrtich blast with cha on each off as many times as possible in one round.

Maybe this is just lingering 3.5 instinct, but I'm skepticle of how vialbe such a DPS aproach is, and the multiclass things seem a bit gimmicky, as once its blown is quicken spell and action surge it doesn't seem to offer that much.

So what does everyone here think? Also any other tips on party building? I definitely think we should double up on perception (at least), and for races I'm thinking either everyone goes feat variant human, or we have feet variant human x 3, elf (high or wood) x 2.

I agree with other sentiments that healbot cleric is a poor option in 5e. Only one domain really stands out for a bit more healing while other domains give more versatility. There just isn't that much difference between a cleric, bard, druid, or paladin (because of loh support plus spells) when it comes to a dedicated healer. At 6th level, it's the out of combat healing coming from the cleric using prayer of healing or the lore bard who's added either prayer of healing or aura of vitality through extra secrets that normally has the better options outside of the healing domain, but each of the 4 classes I mentioned has some advantage over the other. Having a character with the healer feat and/or a character with the inspiring leader feat can go a long way instead of using spell slots for healing at low levels. It's generally more efficient to use spells that kill, incapacitate, or otherwise prevent damage than it is to heal it.

I'm not actually a fan of the damage soak of wild shape. The ability is useful and it's definitely a lot of hit points but I find the beast forms taken to get those don't normally have great AC so the hit points go fast, the forms need to be dropped to cast spells at those levels so one or the other becomes counter productive, and if a person is dungeon crawling the forms can restrict mobility due to size if facing more narrow openings or passages. I think the damage soak is good but a bit over-rated looking at the bigger picture.

I'll sign the lore bard and paladin choices for a solid party. The paladin auras that become available are great, bardic inspiration can have high impact used on saves or important attacks, and cutting words is very useful. Paladins always add back up healing regardless of spells prepared and lore bards have a pretty wide selection list by 6th level.

You might keep in mind that WIS isn't normally high on bards or rogues so perception can be better on a class with more WIS plus proficiency at lower levels. I would consider a hunter ranger for solid perception using WIS for spells, proficiency, and benefits on checks preferred terrain to match the setting for the challenge, plus the occasional burn a slot check and solid damage at low levels.

I'm thinking: lore bard, devotion paladin, hunter ranger, diviner wizard, and I agree with the assassin. Solid burst damage opening, high mobility when needed, more skill proficiency and expertise. That group has solid protection, healing, damage, and skill options. The main reason for the wizard over sorcerer is the inherent ritual casting that comes with the class, and I like the school options. If the DM is allowing for additional spells having been made available from scrolls assumed gained prior to the campaign then sorcerer (for metamagic) with the ritual caster feat or a tome warlock (for at will invocations, rituals, and eldritch blast damage) are solid alternatives to the wizard as long as short resting is available around standard assumptions.

My 2cp. Hope it helps.

[MaxWilson]

I agree with other sentiments that healbot cleric is a poor option in 5e. Only one domain really stands out for a bit more healing while other domains give more versatility. There just isn't that much difference between a cleric, bard, druid, or paladin (because of loh support plus spells) when it comes to a dedicated healer. At 6th level, it's the out of combat healing coming from the cleric using prayer of healing or the lore bard who's added either prayer of healing or aura of vitality through extra secrets that normally has the better options outside of the healing domain, but each of the 4 classes I mentioned has some advantage over the other. Having a character with the healer feat and/or a character with the inspiring leader feat can go a long way instead of using spell slots for healing at low levels. It's generally more efficient to use spells that kill, incapacitate, or otherwise prevent damage than it is to heal it.

While this is generally true, the fact that you can get 240 HP of healing out of a single third-level spell with a specialized healer means that it's also kind of false: a good healer is much, much better at healing than other characters are at preventing damage.

There's definitely a niche there for healing character, if you want them.

In practice however, the single most important kind of healing in 5E tends (in my experience) to be Greater Restoration, not HP healing. If you run into a Medusa or an Intellect Devourer and you get unlucky, and have no one who can cast Greater Restoration on you... you're kind of out of luck, unless you want to be on the wizard getting 9th level spells and Wishing you back to life/sanity. (Not a good bet.)

[Deadandamnation]

The "best party" don't mean the "omfg oomph we've killed the game and the master hate us group build"

The master in D&D is a God and therefore is unbeatable: 5 warlock with devil sight? Nice...I'll send you special monsters with blindsight...all day long...there is no way to beat the GM and that's not the game goal.

The "best party" is imho a group of PC where anyone can shine doing something and is feeled as useful by the others.

DnD is plenty of things that can happen if the master is good.

You can be killed by a snowstorm or by a dragon and in both cases the master challenge you and one of you are supposed to bring one or more answers.

The basical things that I think are perceived as "Essential" are imho (at least):

1) One martial classes
2) One magic users
3) One support
4) One Ranged

So to just give an example a 3-man party can be:

1) Paladin (martial and secondary support)
2) Wizard (magic user and secondary ranged)
3) Bard (support, secondary martial, secondary magic user, ranged)

Will they overwhelm the game? I don't think so...
Are they a good party? Yes...they can survive probably most of the challenges a GM will throw them.

My advise is just that:

1) Don't play the same class of another player
2) Don't play the same role of another player (example shadow monk, stealth rogue, stealth bard)
3) Don't overestimate powerful combos, they aren't fun and ruin the game

That's all imho

[tieren]

ALL 5 should be warlocks with the cheesy darkness and devils sight combo so no one is disdvantaged with the darkness spells going off. Have everyone take repelling and agonizing blast invocations and nothing will get near you, no ranged will target you, and no spells requiring sight will affect you.

[Ashrym]

While this is generally true, the fact that you can get 240 HP of healing out of a single third-level spell with a specialized healer means that it's also kind of false: a good healer is much, much better at healing than other characters are at preventing damage.

There's definitely a niche there for healing character, if you want them.

In practice however, the single most important kind of healing in 5E tends (in my experience) to be Greater Restoration, not HP healing. If you run into a Medusa or an Intellect Devourer and you get unlucky, and have no one who can cast Greater Restoration on you... you're kind of out of luck, unless you want to be on the wizard getting 9th level spells and Wishing you back to life/sanity. (Not a good bet.)

I'm not saying a person cannot break the general rule. Life cleric 1 / lore bard 19 makes a great custom healer with little progression loss along the way, for example. It's just a general rule, and if the it's a challenge game for 6th level characters per the OP then greater restoration and extra secrets would be unavailable for it.

I definitely agree with your comment.

[Spiritchaser]

Might be putting your eggs in one basket but consider a party of stealthy PCs. If your healer is a bard he can take expertise in stealth. Make the paladin a dex pally since he is single classed and have him pick up stealth from background/human. Everyone but the pally should have about +10 to stealth, and he'll have +7.

I was about to type something like this. I'm currently playing in a group where everyone is good at stealth.


Find a way to get pass without trace in someone's concentration slot and you'll get an additional + 10 broken-ness to those rolls.

I'm the sneaky evil dex pally... No one expects the inquisition!

[Icewraith]

Life Cleric 6 (Resilient:Con or War Caster if Feats are allowed)
Rogue (Thief or Assassin) 6 (Sharpshooter or Xbow Expert if feats are allowed, carry shortswords and daggers for melee)
Open Hand Monk 6 (IIRC this is the level attacks become magical, may be super important depending on enemy type and availability of magic items)
Battlemaster Fighter 6 (GWM PAM preferable if feats are allowed, Athletics Proficiency)
Evoker Wizard 6 (Resilient:Con or War Caster if Feats are allowed)

(Note: Healer may be substituted as a feat on the Cleric, Wizard, or Monk, but Monks really like ability score boosts because that affects their AC)

Cleric can bless (3 great targets), heal when necessary, gets heavy armor + shield so has great AC.

Rogue has great damage if it can reliably get off-turn attacks. Also skillz. Sharpshooter probably negates disadvantage (you'd need to argue a DM on this, but if you ignore ac bonuses shooting someone through an arrow slit you shouldn't have any difficulties hitting someone who's prone) if the monk knocks the target prone.

Battlemaster has some ridiculous damage against low AC targets or targets with advantage, against high AC targets can grant Monk (stunning) or Rogue (sneak attack) extra off-turn attacks using maneuver dice.

Open Hand Monk has ridiculous control. Stunning, pushing, tripping, all powered by its Dex score. Damage is competitive at this level (use 1d8 versatile quarterstaff) (drops off at later levels) and multiple attacks can pick off weakened foes. Stunning or knocking opponents prone grants Battlemaster advantage for GWM+PAM. Always on magical melee attacks at 6th IIRC.

Evoker Wizard can stock up on rituals for party utility and can aoe the party without aoeing the party, saving Cleric or party healing resources. Diviner would be strong, but divination spells are campaign and DM dependant to be good (portent would still be potent).

The big thing here is that spell slots aren't as big an issue if the DM doesn't issue regular rests or regular long rests. If I got to add more members it would probably be Warlock or Warlock2/Bard 4 and then Shield Master Paladin. However, at this level, damage solves most combat encounters and Monk+Rogue+Battlemaster has some ridiculous synergy in terms of gaining advantage and then killing opponents.

[Vogonjeltz]

So me and some friends are going to take part in a challenge called Dawn of Heroes, a one off D&D 5 game at level 6. Since surviving and "winning" is the primary challenge here, I was wondering what sort of a group people recommend. We can only use the PHB, no other supplements.

So far, me and my group agrees on:

1. Healbot cleric. Can't do much if you aren't alive.
2. Mooncircle druid. Secondary healer and other useful spells, and the damage soak of wildshape.


But then we have a difference of opinion. I think the following should complete our
3. Rogue/bard with expertised perception. Could svae us a lot of hurt in the long run.
4. Full arcane caster, preferably a Wizard.
5. Paladin, likely shield and shield master, since GWF rerolling 1s and 2s for divine smite may not be allowed by the GM.

My friend however disagrees, and wants to go maximum DPS with the remaining 3 positions, so something like:
3. Assassin
4. Sorcerer
5. Warlock/Sorceror/Fighter - some combination I don't fully understand, with the goal of getting twin eldrtich blast with cha on each off as many times as possible in one round.

Maybe this is just lingering 3.5 instinct, but I'm skepticle of how vialbe such a DPS aproach is, and the multiclass things seem a bit gimmicky, as once its blown is quicken spell and action surge it doesn't seem to offer that much.

So what does everyone here think? Also any other tips on party building? I definitely think we should double up on perception (at least), and for races I'm thinking either everyone goes feat variant human, or we have feet variant human x 3, elf (high or wood) x 2.

Maximized dpr would be a fighter or frenzy barbarian. Some classes might have slightly higher burst (paladin, possibly) at this stage, but they don't have staying power to cover many rounds of combat (which this sounds like it might involve).

In any case, I'd consider the kinds of enemies you might fight, and how each character would contribute to success tactically if you want to maximize your output.

[Ashrym]

I thought I might point out that an assassin is a rogue or bard (it's a rogue subclass), a sorcerer is a full arcane caster so the disagreement is basically metamagic over versatility, and it's only that last option where there's more disagreement and both options still look like they are looking at burst spike damage.

The OP could always split the difference and give in on the assassin and sorcerer since it fits in with what is expressed in the OP and then go for the paladin for additional spell support and healing, spike damage, and solid melee ability.

[wunderkid]

Simplest way of winning I can see is 5x paladins. I'm almost 100% sure sage said the save aura stacked with other paladins save auras. So you then have a group with +15 (assuming 16 cha on each) to all saves. All plate wearers. All decent hp. All with extra attack or casting a limited pool of spells. Plenty of tanking options. Plenty of damage options. You can all get handsy with a pool of 150 lay on hands hp. And iirc channel divinity sacred weapon counters darkness shenanigans (could be wrong there though). And insane smite nova.

Failing that 4 paladins and 1 bard so you have a full caster support and skill monkey for trap detection. From level 6 each paladin can either gish or stay pala. But almost nothing save or suck wise will phase your band of merry adventures on your righteous quest for the holy grail.

It is an admittedly boring composition. But if the name of the game is to win then I can't see much better than effectively ignoring all save effects and being a group of D10 hitpoint bruisers.

Critisim accepted for this of course.

[wunderkid]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/18/does-paladins-aura-of-protection-stack/

The sage regarding the stacking of auras. (y) because when a group of paladins go on a crusade nothing stops them.

[Serket]

Is it just me thinking that paladin auras stacking is a terrible idea?

[Sir cryosin]

5 hill dwarf barbarian totem bear with tough feat. Because magic is for that scrawny pansy in his tower. There is only one thing you need to solve any problem or challenge and that is brute force if it ain't working your not using enough you feel me bro.

[Petrocorus]

5 hill dwarf barbarian totem bear with tough feat. Because magic is for that scrawny pansy in his tower. There is only one thing you need to solve any problem or challenge and that is brute force if it ain't working your not using enough you feel me bro.

Why Hill Dwarves? Why not Mountain Dwarves with their improved Strength?

[Sir cryosin]

It for the hp bump it may not seam much but it does make a difference.

[Oramac]

So me and some friends are going to take part in a challenge called Dawn of Heroes, a one off D&D 5 game at level 6. Since surviving and "winning" is the primary challenge here, I was wondering what sort of a group people recommend. We can only use the PHB, no other supplements.

So far, me and my group agrees on:

1. Healbot cleric. Can't do much if you aren't alive.
2. Mooncircle druid. Secondary healer and other useful spells, and the damage soak of wildshape.

I didn't read the whole thread, but I want to point out that damage avoided/prevented is far better than damage healed.

With that in mind, I'd go with this:

Life Cleric 6: you do still want a healer. Heavy armor and shields gets a high AC.

Tempest Cleric 2 / Storm Sorc 4: You can get a 19AC with half-plate and a shield, and twinned maximized Chromatic Orb once per short rest is borderline broken. Also, take Healing Words from the Cleric list. It's a bonus action that can be Twinned if necessary.

Vengeance Paladin 6: 20AC with plate and a shield, plus Bane is a nasty debuff on enemies, as well as Aura of Protection. (remember that avoid/prevent damage thing?)

Eldritch Knight 4 / Divination Wizard 2: Again, high AC and plenty of spells. Plus you get Portent to force bad rolls on enemies or replace bad rolls from allies. (prevent more damage)

College of Lore Bard 6: Decent AC, but the main point here is Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, Font of Inspiration, Countercharm, Cutting Words, and debuffs from spells like Vicious Mockery. Prevent more damage!

The Pally or EK can tank, while the rest of the group blasts. You should avoid enough damage that the Life Cleric can even attack most of the time.

EDIT: The Life Cleric should ALWAYS keep Bless up on 3 party members. Or all five, if they use a 3rd level spell slot.

[MaxWilson]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/18/does-paladins-aura-of-protection-stack/

The sage regarding the stacking of auras. (y) because when a group of paladins go on a crusade nothing stops them.

That might be why this was fixed in the DMG errata. See errata for page 252: http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DMG_Errata.pdf


Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection
at the end of the “Combat” section: “Different game features can
affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features
have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the
most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap.
For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form
trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target
is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells,
class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic
items. See the related rule in the ‘Combining Magical Effects’
section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.”

Paladin aura stacking does not work.

=======================================


Is it just me thinking that paladin auras stacking is a terrible idea?

It's not just you. Even if it were legal, which it's not, it results in a very one-dimensional group. You're very strong against save-or-die things like Banshees, as long as all the paladins are nicely clumped together in a tight little group... but by the same token you're relatively weak to AoE like Magma Mephits and/or Fireball. And because paladins are weak at range without multiclassing, and you can't multiclass given the level constraints of this challenge and still get your aura, you're weak against stuff like hobgoblin archers. And you don't have a great way to deal with things like Black Puddings and Fire Elementals which damage you when you hurt them in melee.

I'm assuming the adventure it built to be easy enough that your paladins would still survive and possibly triumph, but there are definitely better ways to approach the problem than going all-in on a group of paladins.

[Naanomi]

Ancients Paladin
Tome (or Chain) Fey-Warlock
Red-Dragon Sorcerer
Lore Bard
Mastermind Rogue (charlatan/actor feat)

All 'social connections' backgrounds (criminal, noble, acolyte, etc)

1st resort is to talk your way out of problems; 2nd choice to solve them and negotiate big rewards

[Ashrym]

@the OP: Not sure if you are still going over these responses, but they will likely continue to generally include variations on paladin, wizard, and lore bards as favorites choices for an optimized party followed by stronger damage options. Basing a party around those classes gives a lot of versatility and defensive benefits from which to build your solid foundation. After that it's really just bumping up damage and selective targeting either through strong range and/or high mobility.

[Sir cryosin]

Hunter ranger
Battle master fighter
Lore bard
Rogue assassin/ dragon sorcerer
Barbarian totem

[Boci]

@the OP: Not sure if you are still going over these responses, but they will likely continue to generally include variations on paladin, wizard, and lore bards as favorites choices for an optimized party followed by stronger damage options. Basing a party around those classes gives a lot of versatility and defensive benefits from which to build your solid foundation. After that it's really just bumping up damage and selective targeting either through strong range and/or high mobility.

In the end I reluctantly agreed to go with the following:

1. Half-elf / Cleric of Life 4 / Druid 1 / Wizard (probably a diviner) with the heal feat. Healbot, wizard mainly for Leonard's Tiny Hut and Waterbreathing.
2. Half-orc / Battlemaster Fighter 6 with a maul.
3-5. Half-elf / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 4. Take agonizing blast, hex then light em up with eldritch blast, quicken spell for damage bursts when needed.