If I use the distant spell metamagic on spirit guardians does it have a 30 ft radius?

[Lines]

As the spell. It says range: self(15 feet), is double that range: self(30 feet)?

[Shaofoo]

You can't use Distant Metamagic because the range is neither a single distance or touch. The main distance is self which is not modified by the Metamagic

[Lines]

You can't use Distant Metamagic because the range is neither a single distance or touch. The main distance is self which is not modified by the Metamagic

I've rechecked the PHB, there is no line in it about 'main distance', and the range line does have a part which is 5 feet or greater.

[Giant2005]

I've rechecked the PHB, there is no line in it about 'main distance', and the range line does have a part which is 5 feet or greater.

Radius doesn't refer to range, it refers to area of effect. The Distant Spell Metmagic does not increase a spell's area of effect.

[Lines]

Radius doesn't refer to range, it refers to area of effect. The Distant Spell Metmagic does not increase a spell's area of effect.

If it doesn't refer to range, why is it described by range? Compare crusader's mantle, which has a range of self and has a 30 foot radius - that's range: self. Spirit guardians is range: self(15 foot radius).

[Zalabim]

The range on a spell that affects an area is the maximum distance between the caster and the point of origin. In this case, the range of self is less than 5 feet, so you can't use distant spell on it.

[Lines]

The range on a spell that affects an area is the maximum distance between the caster and the point of origin. In this case, the range of self is less than 5 feet, so you can't use distant spell on it.

So you can't use distant spell on lightning bolt or cone of cold?

[Zalabim]

Right. I would totally accept giving it the touch range version though, letting you place the origin up to 30' away. I think it'd be interesting, as a houserule.

[Lines]

Right. I would totally accept giving it the touch range version though, letting you place the origin up to 30' away. I think it'd be interesting, as a houserule.

So according to 5e's rules, you can't double lightning bolt's range. I'm reading that correctly and not imagining it? That is idotic.

[CantigThimble]

So according to 5e's rules, you can't double lightning bolt's range. I'm reading that correctly and not imagining it? That is idotic.

Distant spell is supposed to let you cast spells further away, not double AOEs. If it was allowed to work with lighting bolt then it would just start the lightning bolt some distance away from you.

[Zalabim]

So according to 5e's rules, you can't double lightning bolt's range. I'm reading that correctly and not imagining it? That is idotic.

That was how it worked in 3e as well, so it doesn't surprise me. You can use Distant Spell on a Fireball, but it won't make the Fireball bigger. That took a different metamagic.

[Shaofoo]

I've rechecked the PHB, there is no line in it about 'main distance', and the range line does have a part which is 5 feet or greater.

The range is Self and that is the first line it says. You can't cast Spiritual Guardian from 15 feet away but rather your range is self and the area of effect is 15 feet around yourself. Look at Spiritual Weapon below Spiritual Guardian which does have a range of 60 feet and can be metamagic for 120 feet that is what I mean with an actual distance and not an area of effect.

Distant Magic has no effect on Range Self. it has on Range X feet (and not X foot radius) or Range Touch

[Lines]

The range is Self and that is the first line it says. You can't cast Spiritual Guardian from 15 feet away but rather your range is self and the area of effect is 15 feet around yourself. Look at Spiritual Weapon below Spiritual Guardian which does have a range of 60 feet and can be metamagic for 120 feet that is what I mean with an actual distance and not an area of effect.

Distant Magic has no effect on Range Self. it has on Range X feet (and not X foot radius) or Range Touch

Well... no. I'm sure that's the intent, but 5e defines terms really badly and the fact that 15 feet is on the range line means it can be made distant. People keep using the terms that should exist (see the second post) and are assumed to exist, but don't actually exist within the rules.

[Segev]

If you want to have an AoE-doubling metamagic, I would suggest homebrewing one with your DM. It seems a reasonable metamagic to exist, given that 3e had one.

Expand
By spending a number of Sorcery points equal to the level of the spell, you can cause a spell which covers an area to have double the radius or length, depending on how the area is measured. This may be used in conjunction with Careful Spell.


(Feel free to tweak the Sorcery Point cost; that may be too high.)

[Shaofoo]

Well... no. I'm sure that's the intent, but 5e defines terms really badly and the fact that 15 feet is on the range line means it can be made distant. People keep using the terms that should exist (see the second post) and are assumed to exist, but don't actually exist within the rules.

I think it defines it okay especially if you cross reference it with other spells of Self (radius). Look at Antimagic Field, the range it self with 10 foot sphere but the effect says again that the spell creates a 10 foot field around the caster. By your logic it will both have a range of self (20 feet) while creating a field of 10 feet by the spell description. Same thing with Spritual Guardian, your analysis breaks apart when the Distant Spell must modify the spell description.

The game will probably not pass in a court of law if you really want to go into lawyer grade scrutiny to find any faults. Like I said look at Spiritual Weapon with an actual range that the spell says and matches the description of Distant Spell description.

[Theodoxus]

Well... no. I'm sure that's the intent, but 5e defines terms really badly and the fact that 15 feet is on the range line means it can be made distant. People keep using the terms that should exist (see the second post) and are assumed to exist, but don't actually exist within the rules.

Well... no. The range is "Self" The AOE is described within the parentheses. Grammar matters, as much as you disparage the writers. Distant Spell specifically has the donut hole between Touch and 5 feet. Self is inside that donut hole.

Feel free to rule it however you want, but you get into some weird shenanigans when Self is considered Touch, and all those "Range: Self" spells originate 30 feet from the caster. (Which would still have a different effect than the OP was asking about.)

OP: No, Distant Spell on Spirit Guardians, regardless of how it's ruled, will not increase the radius to 30'.


ETA: Here's the list of spells that have range Self. Please let me know how you think Distant Spell should interact with them...
Absorb Elements
Alter Self
Antilife Shell
Antimagic Field
Armor of Agathys
Arms of Hadar
Augury
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Aura of Vitality
Banishing Smite
Blade Ward
Blinding Smite
Blink
Blur
Branding Smite
Burning Hands
Circle of Power
Color Spray
Commune
Commune with Nature
Comprehend Languages
Cone of Cold
Conjure Barrage
Contact Other Plane
Contingency
Control Weather
Crusader's Mantle
Destructive Wave
Detect Evil and Goodc
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Detect Thoughts
Disguise Self
Dispel Evil and Good
Divination
Divine Favor
Earth Tremor
Ensnaring Strike
Etherealness
Expeditious Retreat
Eyebite
False Life
Fear
Find the Path
Fire Shield
Flame Blade
Friends
Glibness
Globe of Invulnerability
Gust of Wind
Hail of Thorns
Holy Aura
Investiture of Flame
Investiture of Ice
Investiture of Stone
Investiture of Wind
Legend Lore
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Lightning Arrow
Lightning Bolt
Locate Animals or Plants
Locate Creature
Locate Object
Magic Jar
Melf's Minute Meteors
Mirror Image
Mislead
Misty Step
Pass without Trace
Primordial Ward
Prismatic Spray
Produce Flame
Scrying
Searing Smite
See Invisibility
Shapechange
Shield
Speak with Animals
Speak with Plants
Spirit Guardians
Staggering Smite
Sunbeam
Thunderclap
Thunderous Smite
Thunderwave
Time Stop
Tree Stride
Vampiric Touch
Warding Wind
Wish
Wrathful Smite

[daviestj]

Absorb Elements: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Alter Self: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Antilife Shell: 20 ft radius
Antimagic Field: 20 ft radius sphere
Armor of Agathys: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Arms of Hadar: 20 ft radius
Augury: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Aura of Life: 60 ft radius
Aura of Purity: 60 ft radius
Aura of Vitality: 60 ft radius
Banishing Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Blade Ward: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Blinding Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Blink: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Blur: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Branding Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Burning Hands: 30 ft cone
Circle of Power: 60 ft radius
Color Spray: 30 ft cone
Commune: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Commune with Nature: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Comprehend Languages: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Cone of Cold: 120 ft cone
Conjure Barrage: 120 ft cone
Contact Other Plane: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Contingency: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Control Weather: 10 mile radius
Crusader's Mantle: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Destructive Wave: 60 ft radius
Detect Evil and Good: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Detect Magic: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Detect Poison and Disease: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Detect Thoughts: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Disguise Self: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Dispel Evil and Good: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Divination: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Divine Favor: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Earth Tremor: 20 ft radius
Ensnaring Strike: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Etherealness: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Expeditious Retreat: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Eyebite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
False Life: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Fear: 60 ft cone
Find the Path: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Fire Shield: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Flame Blade: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Friends: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Glibness: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Globe of Invulnerability:20 ft radius
Gust of Wind: 120 ft line
Hail of Thorns: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Holy Aura: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Investiture of Flame: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Investiture of Ice: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Investiture of Stone: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Investiture of Wind: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Legend Lore: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Leomund's Tiny Hut: 20 ft radius hemisphere
Lightning Arrow: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Lightning Bolt: 200 ft line
Locate Animals or Plants: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Locate Creature: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Locate Object: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Magic Jar: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Melf's Minute Meteors: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Mirror Image: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Mislead: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Misty Step: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Pass without Trace: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Primordial Ward: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Prismatic Spray: 120 ft cone
Produce Flame: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Scrying: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Searing Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
See Invisibility: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Shapechange: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Shield: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Speak with Animals: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Speak with Plants: 60 ft radius
Spirit Guardians: 30 ft radius
Staggering Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Sunbeam: 120 ft line
Thunderclap:10 ft radius
Thunderous Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Thunderwave: 30 ft cube
Time Stop: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Tree Stride: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Vampiric Touch: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Warding Wind: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Wish: no numerical range other than self, no effect
Wrathful Smite: no numerical range other than self, no effect

There is no Metamagic that obviously affects AoE, why not this? Distant would not even need to do anything more than what is described. It only doubles a numerical value in the range listing, or change 'touch' to '30 ft'. I have taken your list and adjusted it to reflect that. Doubling the area doesn't really do as much as people think. It doesn't change the damage, just enables the ability to hit more at once. This increases the likelihood of hitting allies more, which is a self limiting factor of it's use. The only really broken spell with allowing this, accounting for what level you would need to be to aquire this combination of spell and ability, is Spiritual Guardians. Other than that, I don't have a problem with allowing Distant to alter any numerical value in the range listing. Most range listings also use that listing in the description as well, so that changes, but not spell areas not listed in the range. So lightning bolt becomes a 120 foot line, but a fireball remains a 20 foot radius.

[iTreeby]

There is no Metamagic that obviously affects AoE, why not this? Distant would not even need to do anything more than what is described. It only doubles a numerical value in the range listing, or change 'touch' to '30 ft'. I have taken your list and adjusted it to reflect that. Doubling the area doesn't really do as much as people think. It doesn't change the damage, just enables the ability to hit more at once. This increases the likelihood of hitting allies more, which is a self limiting factor of it's use. The only really broken spell with allowing this, accounting for what level you would need to be to aquire this combination of spell and ability, is Spiritual Guardians. Other than that, I don't have a problem with allowing Distant to alter any numerical value in the range listing. Most range listings also use that listing in the description as well, so that changes, but not spell areas not listed in the range. So lightning bolt becomes a 120 foot line, but a fireball remains a 20 foot radius.

Making spells hit more targets is what twin does, if you want to use a hombrew Metamagic that widens an area of effect, you should price it in roughly the same way as twin. Distant is too cheap for what you want it to do.

Edit: it should cost more than twin because it probably more than doubles the number of creatures it affects, widen is rediculously good.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Making spells hit more targets is what twin does, if you want to use a hombrew Metamagic that widens an area of effect, you should price it in roughly the same way as twin. Distant is too cheap for what you want it to do.

Edit: it should cost more than twin because it probably more than doubles the number of creatures it affects, widen is rediculously good.

Just throwing some numbers around:

Twin spell: doubles number of creatures affected; costs sorcery points equal to spell's level.

So... a hypothetical Widen spell metamagic that doubled a spell's radius would affect four times the area, and up to four times as many creatures. For radius spells (like Fireball) this looks pretty obviously over-powered in my opinion, so I wouldn't do it this way. But for spells with a line of effect, (Lightning Bolt, etc.) it wouldn't be a game breaker.

To keep Widen spell approximately balanced with Twin spell, when used with spells that have a radius of effect, I'd make the Widened version of the spell x1.5 the normal radius. That effects an area 2.25 times the normal area; just over double the number of creatures, which is just about right.

[iTreeby]

Consider how it would effect a spell like web, it not only effects more targets when cast, it also covers more area with its effect. Same with sleet storm. Illusions like widen as well though it's effects are harder to quantify.

[RSP]

Distant spell is supposed to let you cast spells further away, not double AOEs. If it was allowed to work with lighting bolt then it would just start the lightning bolt some distance away from you.

Interestingly, doubling is the way Distant Spell affects the new AoE cantrips, such as Word of Radiance, making them go from 5’ from the caster to 10’. Not saying Distant should work as expanding AoEs as the OP suggests, just noting that it does double some AoEs.

[Galithar]

Because those 'AoEs' are given A RANGE. They are worded as affecting "Each creature of your choice that you can see within range " that clearly has a range of 5 feet or greater.

Anything that says range 'Self' and then describes an area it affects, still has a range of self. No amount of twisting the English language makes these spells interact with distant spell, only Homebrew does that.

Also note that distant spell works with BB and GFB allowing you to use them at reach.

My question is RAW this would stack with Spellsniper giving word of radiance a range of 20 feet, doubled once by Spellsniper and once by distant spell. Is this RAI? And what would you rule about this at your table? I might actually use Word of Radiance on my Divine Soul Sorcerer in the campaign I'm about to start if my DM will allow me to stack those to get a huge AoE cantrip. I'm going to be a Warforged Sorlock in medium armor and wielding a shield doing everything I can to split aggro with the Barbarian because my AC will be considerably higher. Damage may be low but if I can hit more then two targets reliably it's actually pretty good.

[RSP]

My question is RAW this would stack with Spellsniper giving word of radiance a range of 20 feet, doubled once by Spellsniper and once by distant spell. Is this RAI?

No. “When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled.” those new cantrips use Saves not Attack rolls. Spell Sniper only interacts with spells that require an attack roll.

[Galithar]

No. “When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell's range is doubled.” those new cantrips use Saves not Attack rolls. Spell Sniper only interacts with spells that require an attack roll.

Right. I completely forgot about the attack roll restriction. Thanks!

[Theodoxus]

Holy Threadomancy... though I still stand by my conjecture, nearly 3 years later...

[Galithar]

LMAO I didn't even realize... Sneaky necromancers...

[Dalebert]

It seems a reasonable metamagic to exist, given that 3e had one.

Disagree strongly with that reasoning. Lots of things from 3.X no longer exist for very good reasons, e.g. they were broken, introduced complications in conjunction with certain things, etc.