Bard - Level 1 spell choice help

[JumboWheat01]

So I'm designing up a bard (yes, I design a lot of characters, that's really fun for me,) and I'm having trouble deciding on his fourth and final spell he gets at level one. So far, I have Identify, because he's a bard and he really should be good at that sort of thing, Hideous Laughter and Sleep for some crowd control. I know I want one of the two healing spells, but I'm not sure which one to go with.

Healing Word is fast and thematic, being a strictly vocal spell, while Cure Wounds is much more efficient and great for out-of-combat healing.

In case you're wondering, I'm mostly designing him up with support and utility spells, with the odd crowd control thrown in here or there, outside of Vicious Mockery (which all bards should have by default,) and Eldritch Blast when I go Lore Bard and pick up the freebie spells, which will be thematic with the race I've chosen, tiefling.

[hymer]

Healing Word is fast and thematic, being a strictly vocal spell, while Cure Wounds is much more efficient and great for out-of-combat healing.

There should really be something else in the party for out of combat healing than the choice between CW and HW, at least there should be soon. I suggest HW, especially if you house rule so you can shift initiative. As long as the order of play is Healer, Healed, Bad Guys, you're fine popping people to their feet with HW. If Bad Guys come between Healer and Healed, it's a lot less effective, which is why shifting initiative can be important. If your DM gives each bad guy their own initiative, the odds of having someone able to put the Healed guy back to sleep (while nicely prone and vulnerable) increases.
Regardless, HW is what I'd go for. Just getting people conscious and moving means they can spend HD on a short rest or gain all their hp back from a long one. The range and the bonus action cast makes the spell.


Identify

I'm impressed you're picking this. It's rather a niche spell. If you can have someone else in the party have it, someone with a more expansive list of spells known like a wizard or a Knowledge cleric, that'd strictly speaking be better from an optimization point of view.

[JumboWheat01]

*Identify*
I'm impressed you're picking this. It's rather a niche spell. If you can have someone else in the party have it, someone with a more expansive list of spells known like a wizard or a Knowledge cleric, that'd strictly speaking be better from an optimization point of view.

I figure it more on the lines of taking more utility things like this would free up the wizard's preparation slots for more powerful damage and debilitating effects than what I could muster as a bard. It's not like I'm planning a solo character. And if somehow the party doesn't have a wizard, but maybe a land druid or a sorcerer, or a non-book warlock, then I will have the utility things easy.


On the other part, I see what you mean about Healing Word. I probably will go with that, if just for thematics alone. And during a short rest, I can improve hit-dice healing with the little bard feature after all, so straight numbers isn't worth it, now that I think of it.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Personally I like Dissonant Whispers over Hideous Laughter for lvl 1 CC. It allows for some real damage as well if you coordinate with the melee in your party. And later you can take Hold Person if you really want that type of lockdown.

Healing Word is probably all the healing you'll need for a good long while. Unless your party is completely dependent on you as an HP battery, cure wounds probably isn't needed.

Faerie Fire is a decent spell and worth considering. Thunderwave if you plan on being in melee, such as if you're going Valor, but otherwise maybe wait for Shatter.

You didn't mention cantrips. It's a bit of a personal choice but I think Vicious Mockery, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion and Thunderclap (if going Valor/Melee) are some of the Bard's best options. Message, Mending and Light can be useful, depending on the campaign and party composition.

[JAL_1138]

You didn't mention cantrips. It's a bit of a personal choice but I think Vicious Mockery, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion and Thunderclap (if going Valor/Melee) are some of the Bard's best options. Message, Mending and Light can be useful, depending on the campaign and party composition.


I've always gotten more use out of Prestidigitation than Minor Illusion; it's worth looking at as well. I occasionally find a situational use for Minor Illusion, but end up casting Prestidigitation several times a session if I've got it. It's very useful to get bloodstains and muck out of clothes for when you need to go from dungeon-crawling murderhobo to social-fu face in the same session, at least.

[bardo]

I figure it more on the lines of taking more utility things like this would free up the wizard's preparation slots for more powerful damage and debilitating effects than what I could muster as a bard.

Let me bash Identify for a while. First of all, Identify shouldn't even be in the Player's Handbook. There are no magic items in the game by default. In a game without magic items Identify is about as useful as Protection from Light Sabers, Deflect Blaster Shots, or any other StarWars-themed spell you can come up with. I'm saying it's a trap. Yeah, it has alternative uses like finding out a creature is charmed or diseased, but if you can hold them down for 1 minute to cast Identify you can probably already figured out what's wrong with them. Identify should be an extra spell in the Dungeon Master's Guide with a note like "if you're going to put magic items in the game, consider also adding this spell".

Next point, Identify is the epitome of how not to pick known spells. It is the most situational of situational spells. By default you will cast Identify exactly never. In a game with magic items you will cast Identify every time the party find a magic item, which is maybe every three session if the DM is really throwing them at you. You want to pick mostly spells that you will cast every day. Your 'just in case' spells should focus on big urgent problems that can't be resolved by other means. Don't waste a known spell pick on a problem you can solve tomorrow. Don't waste a known spell pick on something you can solve with money. I can't come up with a believable scenario where you have to cast Identify right here right now or something really bad will happen. Wait until you get back in town, buy a scroll, pay someone to cast it for you.

And finally, Identify has the ritual tag. Wizards can cast it straight outta their spellbooks without preparing and without spending a spell slot. This isn't the kind of spell a Bard (or any other party member) would pick to free up the Wizard, quite the opposite, this is the kind of spell the Wizard should pick to free up the rest of the party.

Here are some spells you might have missed.

Dissonant Whispers deals good damage, thematic, better if your party has melee capabilities to destroy opponents with the attacks of opportunity it generates.

Faerie Fire targets DEX saving throw which is good against most monsters since they tend to be slow. Better when fighting multiple opponents, because it's almost certain some of them will fail the saving throw. Gives entire party advantage on attack rolls. The more attack rolls your party makes the better it gets (spells that call for an attack roll also get advantage), more hits and almost twice as many crits.

Healing Word over Cure Wounds because it has range and it's a bonus action to cast. This means you can cast Healing Word in combat and still do something useful with your movement and action, unlike Cure Wounds which would consume both your movement and your action. Since you're mostly casting it on players with 0 hit points to get them back on their feet, it usually doesn't matter that it restores less hit points than Cure Wounds. If the Bard is the only healer in the party then reconsider Cure Wounds.

Silent Image illusions go as far as your imagination will let you go before the DM stops you. If the DM is pro-illusions this is the most versatile spell you'd find at 1st level.

Longstrider if someone in your party is movement impaired and an extra 10' would help. Also nice to cast on Wood Elves to see them zoom by at 45'. Less useful in groups that play theatre of the mind.

And you've already mentioned Sleep and Tasha

Bardo.

[JumboWheat01]

It was mostly just for level one I was looking for, there are plenty of tasty options I plan on grabbing later. And if I never really use Identify, well, I can swap it out later.

As for cantrips, I had those all figured out. Vicious Mockery and Prestidigation at first, Mage Hand and Minor Illusion later, Thaumaturgy (or however it's spelled,) from being a Tiefling (I can see getting a lot of use out of the "booming voice" aspect of it,) and Eldritch Blast from the Lore's free spells. Figuring out my cantrips was never a problem.

[Socratov]

To prevent is better then to heal.

This is a universal truth. Especially given the new healing mechanics on short and long rests.

Therefore I present you healing in terms of AoE and CC.

First, please lose Identify, you won't use it more then 5 times for the first 5 or 6 levels. You are better off buying a scroll for it. Or a wand. This is what money is for.

1st method of healing: causing death!

Death is the most powerful form of crowd control in the freaking game. it's insane, the enemy can't take any actions (like giving you the Dead condition, let alone dealing damage), can't move and any attack will succeed on dead people (not that it will do any good). So considering that you are a party of 3 or more, using 1 action to make 2 actions doubly potent is a good use of an action (with 3 people it's a 50% increase in effectiveness) so, how can we do this:

single target: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Dissonant Whispers, Sleep (if it hits, this is a trap since it won't hit since the spell has been written by someone who did not understand this game in any way), etc.

multi target: Fearie Fire, Entangle, etc.

These spells make giving someone the dead condition a lot easier, either by giving advantage, or by making someone lie down laughing.

2nd method of healing: Taking away actions.

enemies that can't take actions, can't hurt you. Sticks and stones may break your bones, but a laughing prone enemy out of reach of you will never hurt you.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Dissonant Whispers shine here. The first is the best here since it makes the target prone and unable to take actions. For melee this is the dream. Advantage, no actions, no reactions. For ranged persons this sucks since they get disadvantage, but no worries, draw your bows, take aim and pick your targets affected by Dissonant Whispers. It doesn't have a nifty condition attached, but it's all about the running. and keep running. And keep shooting. short work. For both spells, after applying, refer to method 1 of healing and you'll be the best damn fine healer there is.


There you have it: the best healing spells.

[bid]

And finally, Identify has the ritual tag. Wizards can cast it straight outta their spellbooks without preparing and without spending a spell slot. This isn't the kind of spell a Bard (or any other party member) would pick to free up the Wizard, quite the opposite, this is the kind of spell the Wizard should pick to free up the rest of the party.
Definitely.

A wizard should be able to cast all his spells or nearly so. Anything not prepared should be rituals, except for a few situational spells to swap in and out as needed.

[JumboWheat01]

1st method of healing: causing death!

I'm not entirely sure I can argue with that logic, but as a more lawful neutral/lawful good kind of person, I'm sure I could come up with something. Still, no arguing the argument, crowd control is a very nice way of keeping your buddies healthy. Maybe I'll change my future spell plans to house more crowd control rather than utility or support.

[SharkForce]

barring houserules, identify is worse than trash. i wouldn't even pick it up on a wizard. i wouldn't pay the 50 gold to add it to my spellbook even if i had hundreds of gold. there's a chance you might need to spend that gold on something less useless. like a giant steaming pile of horse manure.

page 136 of the DMG will tell you why.

[JumboWheat01]

barring houserules, identify is worse than trash. i wouldn't even pick it up on a wizard. i wouldn't pay the 50 gold to add it to my spellbook even if i had hundreds of gold. there's a chance you might need to spend that gold on something less useless. like a giant steaming pile of horse manure.

page 136 of the DMG will tell you why.

I don't know, that's a lot of fertilizer. Farmers would trade good coin or crops for an amount that big.

I never got the DMG, only the PHB and SCAG. Maybe I should get it one of these days, see more of the inner workings.

[Rixitichil]

I'd consider getting Faerie Fire over Hideous Laughter. You already have control in Sleep and Faerie Fire counters both invisibility and acts as a group buff which lasts longer than Tasha's

[SharkForce]

I don't know, that's a lot of fertilizer. Farmers would trade good coin or crops for an amount that big.

I never got the DMG, only the PHB and SCAG. Maybe I should get it one of these days, see more of the inner workings.

right then, the short version:

over the course of a short rest, any random schmuck can identify everything about an item. what it does, how it works, everything. no spellcasting required, no skill checks, no requirements of any kind whatsoever other than spending a short rest handling a single magic item (it doesn't even have any indication that doing so might prevent using the short rest for other things).

honestly, i don't even know why they wasted the ink to print identify anywhere.

[BW022]

Few observations from my bard...

Sleep is a limited use crowd control spell. Most creatures have so many hit points are your level that you can rarely affect even one or two and often friends will take the action to wake folks. If you take it at 1st, expect to swap it out by 4th or so. Even using 2nd-level spell slots, may creatures just have too many hit points to be affected on opening rounds. I'm not a fan of Tasha's as it is both concentration and has a save every round.

If you are outdoors, entangle is a better crowd control spell. If not, faerie fire and thunderwave are better choices. FF really makes it easy for party members to hit and remains potent are higher levels. Thunderwave is useful at low-levels and you can switch out later.

I'll say one of the best 1st-level combos is animal friendship and speak with animals. Yes, two spells, but it easy to find a wolf, bear, dog, or horse and animal friendship it. Speak with animals can then be ritual cast and has some roleplaying potential -- stealing horses, gathering information, etc. Might not be ideal for a theifling, but an animal protector can easily keep you alive until higher levels.

For healing... I would start with cure light wounds. You don't have so many spells that you need to worry about bonus actions (you'll run out of your 2 spells extremely quickly) and chances are whoever is being healed will be next to you. You have inspirations to use as bonus actions. At 4th or 5th, make the determination if range or rate at which you need to be outputting actions is an issue and then either swap out cure wounds for healing word... or just take healing word in addition to cure.

[bardo]

Few observations from my bard...

Sleep is a limited use crowd control spell. Most creatures have so many hit points are your level that you can rarely affect even one or two and often friends will take the action to wake folks. If you take it at 1st, expect to swap it out by 4th or so. Even using 2nd-level spell slots, may creatures just have too many hit points to be affected on opening rounds. I'm not a fan of Tasha's as it is both concentration and has a save every round.

If you are outdoors, entangle is a better crowd control spell. If not, faerie fire and thunderwave are better choices. FF really makes it easy for party members to hit and remains potent are higher levels. Thunderwave is useful at low-levels and you can switch out later.

I'll say one of the best 1st-level combos is animal friendship and speak with animals. Yes, two spells, but it easy to find a wolf, bear, dog, or horse and animal friendship it. Speak with animals can then be ritual cast and has some roleplaying potential -- stealing horses, gathering information, etc. Might not be ideal for a theifling, but an animal protector can easily keep you alive until higher levels.

For healing... I would start with cure light wounds. You don't have so many spells that you need to worry about bonus actions (you'll run out of your 2 spells extremely quickly) and chances are whoever is being healed will be next to you. You have inspirations to use as bonus actions. At 4th or 5th, make the determination if range or rate at which you need to be outputting actions is an issue and then either swap out cure wounds for healing word... or just take healing word in addition to cure.

My thoughts on taking both Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship is if you love animals so much put a 13 in WIS and dip 1 or 2 lvl druid. Likewise, if you're looking at taking both Cure Wounds and Healing Words, dip life cleric.

OP, make sure you count how many times you cast Identify in your career before you ditch it, and let us know =)

Bardo.

[Socratov]

Few observations from my bard...

Sleep is a limited use crowd control spell. Most creatures have so many hit points are your level that you can rarely affect even one or two and often friends will take the action to wake folks. If you take it at 1st, expect to swap it out by 4th or so. Even using 2nd-level spell slots, may creatures just have too many hit points to be affected on opening rounds. I'm not a fan of Tasha's as it is both concentration and has a save every round.
Couldn't agree more. I also found a few spellslots wasted before I traded it away. Still more useful then Identify though...

If you are outdoors, entangle is a better crowd control spell. If not, faerie fire and thunderwave are better choices. FF really makes it easy for party members to hit and remains potent are higher levels. Thunderwave is useful at low-levels and you can switch out later.
Entangle is a Druid only spell, sadly... For the rest, please note that FF has a dex save and is frequently saved against by goblins and humanoids...

I'll say one of the best 1st-level combos is animal friendship and speak with animals. Yes, two spells, but it easy to find a wolf, bear, dog, or horse and animal friendship it. Speak with animals can then be ritual cast and has some roleplaying potential -- stealing horses, gathering information, etc. Might not be ideal for a theifling, but an animal protector can easily keep you alive until higher levels.

For healing... I would start with cure light wounds. You don't have so many spells that you need to worry about bonus actions (you'll run out of your 2 spells extremely quickly) and chances are whoever is being healed will be next to you. You have inspirations to use as bonus actions. At 4th or 5th, make the determination if range or rate at which you need to be outputting actions is an issue and then either swap out cure wounds for healing word... or just take healing word in addition to cure.

Or don't and opt for the freaking short rest and apply d6's to everyone's healing attempts through song of rest. Seriously, as a bard you better off preventing damage and making sure the enemies can't do harm then to repair the harm. A life domain cleric is much better at that...

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I'd personally recommend Dissonant Whispers and Healing Word for first level. Saying that prevention is better than curing is all very well, but this is first level - an unlucky crit can take someone from full health to dying on the floor. Having a means to get them back up is very useful, particularly when it doesn't even cost an action. Now, if there's a life cleric in the party, you're probably better of leaving it to them (in which case, go for Sleep - 5d8 ain't chicken feed when the opposition will be lucky to have a second hit die. At the very least, you'll take a couple of mooks out of the fight, which is nothing to sneeze at), but that's hardly guaranteed.

[hymer]

when the opposition will be lucky to have a second hit die.

Just a nitpick on the wording. Even lowly CR 1/8 guards and kobolds have two HD. It's because of their low hp that they're vulnerable to Sleep.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Just a nitpick on the wording. Even lowly CR 1/8 guards and kobolds have two HD. It's because of their low hp that they're vulnerable to Sleep.

Huh, you're right. Somehow, that seems very odd to me.

[Deadandamnation]

1st) Sleep - With no doubt the best spell and the one you are going to use more often:
5d8 means an average of 22.5 HP affected that's a lot for a 1st level spell. Even if you sleep only one of them, the worst thing that can happen is that you have trade 1 action for another action with a 100% chance of succes. (Example: 2 goblins, you cast sleep, one goblin fall asleep, the other one wake the sleeped one, the sleeped one take his turn but you have make the other waste his action doing nothing)

2nd) Dissonant Whisper - Another damned great spell, it do many things all in one: A) Do damage 2) Waste the target reaction 3) Trigger your mates AoO (more damage)
If you have a couple of melees in your party it becomes a pure gold spell (rogues will love you)

4) Faerie Fire - It's a great spell against a BBEG that's not so great on Dex Saves.

5) Healing Word - More useful than CW since you don't waste your action in-combat.

6) At higher level you will retrain, Charm Person or Animal Frienship will be my choices.

[hymer]

Huh, you're right. Somehow, that seems very odd to me.

Me too, which is why it stuck with me.

[Socratov]

Me too, which is why it stuck with me.

which is why sleep is only ever useful at 1st lvl and not above. Fearie Fire is lots better and more useful, as is dissonant Whispers and Tasha's Hideous Laugher.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

which is why sleep is only ever useful at 1st lvl and not above. Fearie Fire is lots better and more useful, as is dissonant Whispers and Tasha's Hideous Laugher.

Not really - they might have a couple of hit dice for some unknown reason, but their hp is still very low. It's still pretty effective against most of the stuff you're fighting at 2 and 3 - it just goes from being ridiculous (a reliable no-save stun on mooks that is also effective against single targets) to decent (merely a reasonably effective mook stunner). Faerie Fire is lumbered with a saving throw and concentration. Whispers and Tasha's might well do nothing against any target worth using on them. Certainly, beyond about level 3 sleep becomes ineffective, but that's why you can trade out spells known. And the topic here is level 1.

[Ashrym]

I would also go with healing word over cure wounds because it doesn't cost an action. It also doesn't heal much more in hp unless through scaling through higher level slots, which won't make sense unless a person doesn't take higher level (ie better) healing spells, and more healing can be done between fights than in spending time / spells during fights so it's more emergency use with range at higher levels.

I will back you on taking Identify. I agree that any wizard in the party with it in his or her spell book makes it mostly pointless. That tends to be contingent on the wizard and spell book both being present, however, so it's still a back up. Without a wizard it's not that bad of an option. It's still very situational but bards get more 1st level spells known than other spells known casters so it's more reasonable to apply some utility with that extra knowledge. I agree that the spell is thematic for most bard concepts and because bards also have the ritual casting feature the character can cast the spell as often as desired without wasting daily slots in the process. If ritual casting was not an option then I would call it total garbage too, tbh.

It's a valid point that identifying magical items doesn't require use of the identify spell but the spell does provide more detail and with less time than a rest would to identify an item. However, identifying magical items is not the benefit of the identify spell. Identify also identifies magic on items or creatures. That makes it a diagnostic ability when learning information regarding the inflicted, and it also becomes a screening process in more social (ie not killing things) contexts. A more paranoid character might cast it at every door before opening it to check for magical traps, for example, or to make sure gifts are not magically trapped, or to confirm what has happened to a gibbering king on his throne. Simply casting it on every person entering a room before entering can be a useful precaution.

Identify certainly isn't a prominent spell. It's also taking up spells known, which can be a fairly limited resource when looking at wizards with spell books in comparison. Considering that it is on the standard bard and wizard spell lists but not normally found with other classes it might make sense to take it on a bard if there isn't a wizard in the group to diversify as a whole. In groups that do quite a bit of role play as opposed to combat you would find that you can cast it quite often for the screening precaution. Your DM might not necessarily have anything to find, but it fills a similar role as finding traps in the social pillar.

Keep in mind, because it takes longer than an action to cast it also breaks concentration on anything else. I would not jump out and call it a premium choice, but I will support it as a thematic spell that has it's situational uses. I've taken it because of those uses.

Hope that helps.

[Socratov]

Not really - they might have a couple of hit dice for some unknown reason, but their hp is still very low. It's still pretty effective against most of the stuff you're fighting at 2 and 3 - it just goes from being ridiculous (a reliable no-save stun on mooks that is also effective against single targets) to decent (merely a reasonably effective mook stunner). Faerie Fire is lumbered with a saving throw and concentration. Whispers and Tasha's might well do nothing against any target worth using on them. Certainly, beyond about level 3 sleep becomes ineffective, but that's why you can trade out spells known. And the topic here is level 1.

5d8 is on average 4.5 * 5 = 22.5 HP


Warhorse - 19 (success)
Warhorse Skeleton - 22 (success)
Swarm of Insects - 22 (success)
Shadow - 16 (success)
Satyr - 31 (failure)
Sahuagin - 22 (success)
Rust Monster - 27 (failure)
Reef Shark - 22 (success)
Orc - 15 (failure)
Magmin - 9 (success x2)
Magma Mephit - 22 (success)
Lizardfolk - 22 (success)
Ice Mephit - 21 (success)
Hobgoblin - 11 (success x2)
Gray Ooze - 22 (success)
Gnome, Deep (Svirfneblin) - 16 (success)
Gnoll - 22 (success)
Giant Wasp - 13 (success)
Giant Sea Horse - 16 (success)
Giant Goat - 19 (success)
Dust Mephit - 17 (success)
Darkmantle - 22 (success)
Crocodile - 19 (success)
Cockatrice - 27 (failure)
Black Bear - 19 (success)
Ape - 19 (success)

So, for a CR 1/2 encounter the spell pretty much works as a single target disable. Due to how it works, it might save 1 maybe 2 attacks against the party (depending on initiative). Only Magmin and Hobgoblins are a little easier then they might take double that away because you can sleep on average 2 enemies. On other enemies it won't work at all. I'll assume that OP is in a 4 man party and will face CR appropriate encounters. That means that for this collumn they will face about 2 of every creature mentioned in the spoiler.

Let's assume you get the same number of 'hits' on your Fearie Fire (as in the same number of creatures affected), they are now affected while you concentrate. Unless you jump into melee or start tanking stuff (whcih as a caster you should leave to the people with a HD of at least d10 size), now the full party gains advantage on attacks against them. that means the rogue gets sneak attack, the babarian doesn't have to use Reckless attacks to make sure he hits, if you have a feat at 1st lvl and have taken GWM or Sharpshooter it's a lot more effective to use the damage bonus and all round it helps the party function a lot better for longer (if the target surivives that long) then just those 2 actions.

for more enemies, but weaker let's say goblins (they seem to be un numbers) they have 7 hp, so one sleep spell will on average be able to sleep 3 of them. Now it's interesting to do so beucase for CR 1 encounter you get 4 goblins and now 3 of them are sleeping with 1 left standing. But let's assume a DC of 13 (on lvl 1 that means a 16 in your casting stat at the least, not entirely impossible, right?) goblins will need to roll an 11 on their save making their save chances 50%, making an expected value of 2 goblins failing. Now it's interestesting to use sleep. In other cases though, FF is superior.

also, please note that sleep works until woken or damaged, FF works until dead or lost concentration.

[Deadandamnation]

Regarding Sleep:

How many lvl 1 spells do an average single target damage of 22.5?

Answer: No one.

We got Chromatic Orb that's the highest (3d8) or ~ 12.5 but requires a hit

We got magic missile (3d4+3) or ~ 10.5 that always hit

So we can speculate that casting a sleep is like casting 2 magic missiles :)

So when you read sleep think at it like:
Kill an enemy if it has less than 23 remaining HP. That's enough to me to make it my first choice at low levels.

[joaber]

Regarding Sleep:

How many lvl 1 spells do an average single target damage of 22.5?

Answer: No one.

We got Chromatic Orb that's the highest (3d8) or ~ 12.5 but requires a hit

We got magic missile (3d4+3) or ~ 10.5 that always hit

So we can speculate that casting a sleep is like casting 2 magic missiles :)

So when you read sleep think at it like:
Kill an enemy if it has less than 23 remaining HP. That's enough to me to make it my first choice at low levels.

dissonant whisppers can do much more than that with AoO. Still, he can get both at first lvl.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Kill an enemy if it has less than 23 remaining HP.
But if he has more, no effect. And any allies may revive them and return their HP with an action. Or someone might just revive them accidentally if things get too chaotic.

I still think it's a good spell, but it has it's flaws.

[SharkForce]

But if he has more, no effect. And any allies may revive them and return their HP with an action. Or someone might just revive them accidentally if things get too chaotic.

I still think it's a good spell, but it has it's flaws.

trading 1 action for 1-2 actions is not a bad deal. furthermore, an unconscious opponent is helpless which means crit city until they're awoken (by being critted for massive damage).

sleep remains a good spell for a few levels. it never goes back to being as ridiculous as it was at level 1, when most fights it could take 2-3 enemies out of the fight entirely. but it stays quite useful (especially if you can whittle down your enemies from range first) for a few more levels. even later on, if you can open with a fireball that leaves a bunch of enemies at low health, it can be quite good (and if you can isolate a group of low HP enemies, sleep can let you set them aside for later and deal with the non-sleeping enemies).

it might not be broken OP at level 3 like it is at level 1, but it still has quite a few uses.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

*Snip Sleep/FF Analysis*

Firstly, you highlighted the 15hp Orc as a failure - I presume this was unintentional, or do they have some kind of immunity I'm not aware of? Also, it's Faerie Fire. Secondly, your analysis assumes that the targets will always be at maximum hp - frequently they will not, and in such a circumstance the efficacy of Sleep improves (incidentally, burning hands then sleep is a good combo - set 'em up and knock 'em down). Thirdly, the assumption that Faerie Fire will hit as many targets as Sleep is not a fair one, considering that Sleep's 20ft radius sphere has more than three times the area and four times the volume of FF's 20ft cube. Thirdly, Sleep also provides advantage against those affected as they are unconscious (not to mention melee auto-crits). Fourthly, while a creature may be woken by an ally, this uses the allies action, thus effectively stunning it for the round (I don't believe there's anything CR1 or below that could attack with a bonus action or similar), and this presuming there is an ally who can conveniently do so; furthermore, they may well provoke attacks of opportunity. Fifthly, assuming the party is careful, damage is unlikely to be a problem - one can simply wait until all other opponents are neutralised then gank the sleepers with auto-crits. Sixthly, that 'until concentration' clause of FF is quite a big one - our first level bard's AC and Con saves will not be impressive. Simply saying they should avoid melee is unhelpful - in an open area there may be no way to do so, and ranged attackers are hardly rare.

[Ashrym]

trading 1 action for 1-2 actions is not a bad deal. furthermore, an unconscious opponent is helpless which means crit city until they're awoken (by being critted for massive damage).

sleep remains a good spell for a few levels. it never goes back to being as ridiculous as it was at level 1, when most fights it could take 2-3 enemies out of the fight entirely. but it stays quite useful (especially if you can whittle down your enemies from range first) for a few more levels. even later on, if you can open with a fireball that leaves a bunch of enemies at low health, it can be quite good (and if you can isolate a group of low HP enemies, sleep can let you set them aside for later and deal with the non-sleeping enemies).

it might not be broken OP at level 3 like it is at level 1, but it still has quite a few uses.

This^^

Sleep is great at first and it remains a cheap finisher later.

[Vogonjeltz]

To prevent is better then to heal.

This is a universal truth. Especially given the new healing mechanics on short and long rests.

Therefore I present you healing in terms of AoE and CC.

First, please lose Identify, you won't use it more then 5 times for the first 5 or 6 levels. You are better off buying a scroll for it. Or a wand. This is what money is for.

1st method of healing: causing death!

Death is the most powerful form of crowd control in the freaking game. it's insane, the enemy can't take any actions (like giving you the Dead condition, let alone dealing damage), can't move and any attack will succeed on dead people (not that it will do any good). So considering that you are a party of 3 or more, using 1 action to make 2 actions doubly potent is a good use of an action (with 3 people it's a 50% increase in effectiveness) so, how can we do this:

single target: Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Dissonant Whispers, Sleep (if it hits, this is a trap since it won't hit since the spell has been written by someone who did not understand this game in any way), etc.

multi target: Fearie Fire, Entangle, etc.

These spells make giving someone the dead condition a lot easier, either by giving advantage, or by making someone lie down laughing.

2nd method of healing: Taking away actions.

enemies that can't take actions, can't hurt you. Sticks and stones may break your bones, but a laughing prone enemy out of reach of you will never hurt you.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Dissonant Whispers shine here. The first is the best here since it makes the target prone and unable to take actions. For melee this is the dream. Advantage, no actions, no reactions. For ranged persons this sucks since they get disadvantage, but no worries, draw your bows, take aim and pick your targets affected by Dissonant Whispers. It doesn't have a nifty condition attached, but it's all about the running. and keep running. And keep shooting. short work. For both spells, after applying, refer to method 1 of healing and you'll be the best damn fine healer there is.


There you have it: the best healing spells.

Counter-point: Not all threats can be ended through damage. For example, environmental threats, traps, getting lost in the woods, lethal puzzles, etc... Against those, healing or other utility feature likely would be a superior use of the spell slot.

I also disagree with you regarding sleep. It scales better than any other spell barring Color Spray, there's no attack roll and no saving throw. The only caveat is that you don't want to cast it against someone healthy unless you're certain it's able to drop them. This can be as easy as having practical experience with how many hit points opponents have (i.e. You're fighting 9 goblins, one dies after 7 points of damage, now you can pretty well guesstimate that the rest have ~7 hp; 5d8 from 1st level sleep should probably knock out 3-4).

Sleep also has the nice side benefit in that it's non-lethal for those situations where lethal force is undesirable. (Bar fight, against people who might become allies down the road, etc...)

[Socratov]

Counter-point: Not all threats can be ended through damage. For example, environmental threats, traps, getting lost in the woods, lethal puzzles, etc... Against those, healing or other utility feature likely would be a superior use of the spell slot.

I also disagree with you regarding sleep. It scales better than any other spell barring Color Spray, there's no attack roll and no saving throw. The only caveat is that you don't want to cast it against someone healthy unless you're certain it's able to drop them. This can be as easy as having practical experience with how many hit points opponents have (i.e. You're fighting 9 goblins, one dies after 7 points of damage, now you can pretty well guesstimate that the rest have ~7 hp; 5d8 from 1st level sleep should probably knock out 3-4).

Sleep also has the nice side benefit in that it's non-lethal for those situations where lethal force is undesirable. (Bar fight, against people who might become allies down the road, etc...)

sleep scales pretty horrid. Per spell level you get an extra 2d8, this is alos what most monsters get, but they get the con bonus. So at first (CR 1/2 on char. lvl 1) it's a single target debuff, after that it doesn't even become that. That is not good scaling. and if you want to end a fight, make sure you ahve the advantage voer someone and then allow someone to surrender. rope does the rest.

[Vogonjeltz]

sleep scales pretty horrid. Per spell level you get an extra 2d8, this is alos what most monsters get, but they get the con bonus. So at first (CR 1/2 on char. lvl 1) it's a single target debuff, after that it doesn't even become that. That is not good scaling. and if you want to end a fight, make sure you ahve the advantage voer someone and then allow someone to surrender. rope does the rest.

The comparison is not spell v monster hit dice, it's spell scaling vs spell scaling.

Sleep's 2d8/lvl is better scaling than any other spell excepting color spray, which is 2d10/lvl.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

The comparison is not spell v monster hit dice, it's spell scaling vs spell scaling.

Sleep's 2d8/lvl is better scaling than any other spell excepting color spray, which is 2d10/lvl.

Yes, but both those spells have an "all-or-nothing" limitation. A caster can cast Shatter or Fireball twice for twice the effect. Sleep either works or not at all. You only get a partial effect from sleep when facing large groups of small enemies. So measuring the scaling relative to "units of Enemy HP" makes sense, as that's how the effect is applied. Whereas the scaling of a normal damage spell can be directly compared to raw HP totals to determine effectiveness.