3.P - Perception vs Other Skills

[Red Rubber Band]

In a lot of games I've played Perception is considered an automatic skill point each level.

To combat this and to allow those with little skill points to diversify, the DM has changed Perception so that it is equal to character level plus any other bonuses associated with class/race/etc.

There are problems with this. No longer can people take anything less than full ranks in skills like Stealth/Sleight of Hand. This has become a problem with several players and even the DM himself.

Short of changing it back how could it be worked so that Stealth/Sleight of Hand are still viable for smaller investments if one chose to do so?

[thethird]

If you are using 3.P look at the class skills of the classes before merging them into perception (spot, search, listen). If a character has zero in class skills it progresses like poor bab, if it has one or two have it progress like average bab, and finally if all are class skills have it work like good (full) bab. This adds a granurality to the perception skill without having investment in it (other than class lvls / hds).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Pathfinder's skill combinations were really poorly chosen. At a minimum, get Search out of there. I'd combine it with Sleight of Hand as a Dex-based skill, or add it to Appraise and make it Int-based. If you did the latter, take Appraise away from Wizards and give it to any class that gets Trapfinding.

You could split Spot and Listen up completely, too. It may seem "unfair" that Stealth is one skill and the perception skills are not, but anyone who plays the game knows the perception skills are more universally useful than the stealth skills are. It's sort of like the reverse of various spell-counters.... Blindness is a useful spell to any caster, it neuters the enemy solidly. Remove Blindness will seldom and unreliably be needed, so most will never prepare it.
No matter who you are or what you do, you'll need to make a lot of spot and listen checks, and the consequences are often high -- getting a surprise round or not is really important -- but only a dedicated build w/ feat investment to overcome limitations of stealth (needing concealment and a non-observing enemy to use it; all the special senses that outright negate it; etc...) will really find value in maxing that out. And even then, some classes/builds are just plain shut out of it...Perception doesn't have armor check penalties.

[OldTrees1]

Make Perception scale automatically at half speed but be available for additional investment. This way you can spend less that max on Stealth and still have some success.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Make Perception scale automatically at half speed but be available for additional investment. This way you can spend less that max on Stealth and still have some success.

How does that actually fix anything? The problem is Perception is too good and everyone maxes it. All that does is give everyone a few more skill points because now they only have to spend half of them on it.

I get this is PF and their solution to something being too good is to make it free (Concentration), but surely the people here have more sense than that?

[OldTrees1]

How does that actually fix anything? The problem is Perception is too good and everyone maxes it. All that does is give everyone a few more skill points because now they only have to spend half of them on it.

I get this is PF and their solution to something being too good is to make it free (Concentration), but surely the people here have more sense than that?

Sorry, I thought the problem was everyone having maximum ranks in perception for free (as it said in the OP) resulted in needing maximum or 0 ranks in stealth and sleight of hand. Silly me for assuming that reducing the free ranks would result in some NPCs/PCs not being at maximum ranks in Perception.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sorry, I thought the problem was everyone having maximum ranks in perception for free (as it said in the OP) resulted in needing maximum or 0 ranks in stealth and sleight of hand. Silly me for assuming that reducing the free ranks would result in some NPCs/PCs not being at maximum ranks in Perception.

Well, you're ignoring the root of the problem:


In a lot of games I've played Perception is considered an automatic skill point each level.

To combat this and to allow those with little skill points to diversify, the DM has changed Perception so that it is equal to character level plus any other bonuses associated with class/race/etc.

There are problems with this. No longer can people take anything less than full ranks in skills like Stealth/Sleight of Hand. This has become a problem with several players and even the DM himself.

The DM's solution created its own problem, arguably an even greater one. But the root of it all is that Perception is so massively overpowered compared to other skills that EVERYONE was maxing it out. So fix the real problem...

[Kurald Galain]

In a lot of games I've played Perception is considered an automatic skill point each level.

To combat this and to allow those with little skill points to diversify, the DM has changed Perception so that it is equal to character level plus any other bonuses associated with class/race/etc.

There are problems with this.

Well, yes. If the problem is that everybody is taking X, then the solution is to make X more expensive, not to make it free. Giving all characters automatically the same perception ranks is boring, and devalues skills that have comparable or opposed effects.

[squiggit]

Well, yes. If the problem is that everybody is taking X, then the solution is to make X more expensive, not to make it free.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that definitively. Some things are always taken because they're necessities and making them more expensive just makes things more annoying for players.

Not saying it necessarily applies here, just a general thought.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that definitively. Some things are always taken because they're necessities and making them more expensive just makes things more annoying for players.

If it's a necessity for one particular class or build, maybe. If it's (considered) a necessity for everyone, then no.

[ericgrau]

In a lot of games I've played Perception is considered an automatic skill point each level.

To combat this and to allow those with little skill points to diversify, the DM has changed Perception so that it is equal to character level plus any other bonuses associated with class/race/etc.

There are problems with this. No longer can people take anything less than full ranks in skills like Stealth/Sleight of Hand. This has become a problem with several players and even the DM himself.

Short of changing it back how could it be worked so that Stealth/Sleight of Hand are still viable for smaller investments if one chose to do so?
You've outlined the problem nicely. Every needs it so everyone gets it so stealth is hard to pull off.

Go back to the original version of perception where it is used primarily for overcoming stealth and problem solved. For other applications 99% of the time you see it. Stop rolling, you just see it. If you want to figure out the details then the DM gives a verbal description and the player figures out what to do with that description himself.

This would be similar to a house rule where you automatically get perception except against stealth and sleight of hand checks, where you must spend ranks to have a high perception. Except it's how the game already works 99% of the time and what you really need to do is reverse the damage done by requiring perception rolls for everything.

Not only this, but stealth requires active effort and cover/concealment to work. It only works for an ambusher lying it wait never for random traveling monsters. So how many stealth based monsters have you fought lately? Given how uncommon it is lots of players will stop taking perception, problem solved.

[Darth Ultron]

Short of changing it back how could it be worked so that Stealth/Sleight of Hand are still viable for smaller investments if one chose to do so?

Give the same level bonus for Stealth/Slight of Hand?

[Spore]

Perception is honestly a crutch for newer DMs and players. It's bad storytelling to create a gaming experience similar to:

"Roll perception! Bob, Mike and Sandy, you cannot do anything. Jack, you discovered a hidden trap door."

I am not saying Perception should not be part of the game but visible and audible clues in the description of a room as well as subliminal perception should be always given. Too many DMs start with: "You find a normal room with nothing special in it. Roll Perception!" rather than "The room is remarkably dusty, and a cold chill runs through the otherwise windowless room. As you walk through the room the clanking of Aiden's boots change when he steps onto the black rug bearing the crest of the Chaos Blade. What are you doing?"

Perception would reveal that the rug is perfectly clean and that there is a small dent in the stone about 3 feet away from the rug, as if some steel item was repeatedly smashed onto the floor. A great result on the roll would give you the location of a safe in the wall behind the work desk. Always keep good game mechanics in mind. Your adventure should be beatable by any slob with any class. The classes should offer advantages on different fields but the adventures shouldn't solve itself because players rolled a lucky number.

[Captain Morgan]

What do people think about making sleight of hand opposed by sense motive instead? I think mechanically sleight of hand and sense motive will be prioritized less than stealth and perception so it should balance out, and sense motive would work for realizing why someone's hand just touched a hip or darted under the table for a weapon.

Doesn't help with stealth being harder, but sneaking in pathfinder sans magic already has a lot of obstacles to overcome.

[Seppo87]

Uhm. Making up an house rule on the fly.

Separate skills in subsets and give more points:

-Exploration (perception, stealth, disable device, survival...)
-Athletics (swim, fly, acrobatics...)
-Social (bluff, intuition, diplomacy, intimidate...)
-Study-based (knowledge, profession, craft, linguistics, perform...)

Every class gets points that should be put in different categories with an averaged distribution, while int-based points and favored class points can be freely distributed. Overall the classes should have more points. Give 2 extra points per level.

Pros: skill taxes get paid and characters can learn stuff
Cons: no cons. A player can choose to use the traditional approach and spend all their points freely but if they do so they get no extra points.