Legacy Weapons, thoughts?

[Milo the Gnome]

Hello Forums!

So in reading the most recent OotS I was reminded of the Legacy Weapons book. Reminded because it Never gets mentioned on the boards.


I'm thinking of injecting a legacy weapon into a campaign, and wanted to know: Has anyone ever used these in a campaign?
Any fun experiences with fun custom tailored legacy weapons?
As written it seems like a huge expense for a little return, but tailored it could be a fun for a player.
Any thoughts on a legacy weapon you'd like to see or have in a campaign?

Thanks!

[Blackhawk748]

I have. My DM modified it slightly though, as i didnt have to pay the GP cost for the rituals, i just had to do them and then pay the other costs from the tables. Made it much better.

Honestly you could drop both costs and it'd be fine. Weapons of Legacy aren't horrifyingly OP and besides, most of those Rituals require a quest or something anyway, so they've earned the ability in that sense.

[OldTrees1]

1)Yes the cost is too high for the benefits. But you can change that.
2) In my limited experience I have not found a player that was interested enough in a legacy item for them to attune with it nor a player interested enough to design a legacy item. In the latest attempt they got really excited by the ToB legacy items I dropped when they had the ToB characters. That excitement did not translate to actual attune but they did get engaged by their existence, played with the omens a bit, and attempted to qualify. However once they qualified they never decided to go through with it.

[Florian]

I'm thinking of injecting a legacy weapon into a campaign, and wanted to know: Has anyone ever used these in a campaign?
Any fun experiences with fun custom tailored legacy weapons?
As written it seems like a huge expense for a little return, but tailored it could be a fun for a player.
Any thoughts on a legacy weapon you'd like to see or have in a campaign?

Thanks!

I love the concept and I really like the flavor of Legacy Weapons. Sadly, the whole concept is flawed beyond believe, because you have to pay way too much to gain your hands on a single item, albeit with sometimes nice non-standard powers.
(Comparing it with the "Scaling Items" from PF Unchained, you´ll even doubt the cost more.)

I fooled around with the system when it was new, trying to mix some of the more flavorful specific items (that no-one uses because too expensive) with the more bog standard boring but effective ones. Was nice for the martial classes and a waste of time for the full casting classes.

[Aleolus]

I have actually had Legacy items that my characters were founding before. My group has never worried about the penalties as you level, or the gp cost really, and they have worked quite well.

[Pluto!]

WoL takes an idea that should be pretty easy to enact (give the PCs gear that gets better as they level), and makes the worst possible implementation of that idea.

The book is terrible. The only parts of the book that people even deliberately use are exploitations of the gear's mechanical support systems (Legacy Champion to overextend short classes and the free "feats" for Dark Chaos shuffling).

I've used the basic concept - using big magic items that gain abilities with level so that I didn't have to bury PCs in boring but necessary magical gear (essentially just consolidating big chunks of characters' WBL onto one or two magic items), and it's been fine. My casual players liked that quite a bit, but the optimizer-type had some beef because it left certain character abilities out of his hands.

I've also played alongside players who used the system in one campaign, and both of them were frustrated with their characters, but I don't know which was the cause and which the effect (ie. whether they were frustrated because WoL made their characters bad or whether the DM was using WoL in hopes to throw them a bone because they thought their characters were bad).

[Luch Ri]

So long as you ignore or trim down the arbitrary penalties, this book is amazing. It can be a wonderful storytelling engine be it founding such an item and seeing it rise in power with you or getting something and slowly uncovering what it is.

The items presented? I usually consider them just a mix of 'we have to fill the book' and examples. This book is best used to make your own, with guidelines in it used to help cement a unique DM created legacy item whose founding or growth can either fit in with the plot or be used to draw players into your world more.

Aside from a few flaws, and honestly who hasn't had to house rule things from any book to fix flaws, I can't think of a supplement for 3.5 I enjoyed or used more.

[LordOfCain]

All of the Dungeon Masters I have played with just don't use legacy weapons and give you an "artifact" that scales with you as you level up.

[Pluto!]

So long as you ignore or trim down the arbitrary penalties, this book is amazing. It can be a wonderful storytelling engine be it founding such an item and seeing it rise in power with you or getting something and slowly uncovering what it is.

The items presented? I usually consider them just a mix of 'we have to fill the book' and examples. This book is best used to make your own, with guidelines in it used to help cement a unique DM created legacy item whose founding or growth can either fit in with the plot or be used to draw players into your world more.

Aside from a few flaws, and honestly who hasn't had to house rule things from any book to fix flaws, I can't think of a supplement for 3.5 I enjoyed or used more.
tl;dr:
If you don't use its rules, and ignore its contents, WoL is one of the best books in 3e.

[Luch Ri]

tl;dr:
If you don't use its rules, and ignore its contents, WoL is one of the best books in 3e.

Nahh not all the rules, just the penalties.

It's honestly a really fun mechanic once you get the hang of it. Writing up legacy items is therapeutic almost. You just have to be willing to make up your own bonuses and benefits.

And now I feel bad, cause you did in fact make me lol pretty hard with that one, and then I wrecked the joke.

[Blackhawk748]

Nahh not all the rules, just the penalties.

It's honestly a really fun mechanic once you get the hang of it. Writing up legacy items is therapeutic almost. You just have to be willing to make up your own bonuses and benefits.

And now I feel bad, cause you did in fact make me lol pretty hard with that one, and then I wrecked the joke.

The Blade of Luch Ri +1 Joke Bane Longsword

[Jay R]

It's not quite the same, but I'm about to start a game with an Ancestral Relic for my gnome Gwystyl.

It will be a gnome's hooked hammer. (As the DM and I worked out, a hooked hammer is a weapon with a hammer on one end and a plothook on the other.)

I was developing it a few weeks ago, when I heard about Alan Rickman's death. So the DM and I have agreed that it was once used to win a great battle by Gwystyl's ancestor Grabthar, in alliance with the dwarven king Warvan and his sons.

Gwystyl does not know this yet. Once he learns its background, and the right situation comes up, I intend for him to swear, "By Grabthar's hammer, by the sons of Warvan, you shall be avenged! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtPRvAJGA8U)"

[Milo the Gnome]

So it sounds like house-ruled versions of this are not unheard of since the flavor is fun but the mechanics are a pain.

Good deal.

I'm thinking of using one in my campaign since in this world magic items are hard to come by and one of the characters has a weapon that's been in the family for generations.


Out of curiosity: if you could have a Legacy Weapon for your current character, what would it be and do?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Legacy Champion from that splatbook gets mentioned from time to time, typically as a work-around to level caps for PrC's, such as War Weaver being able to stick 9th level spells in the weave and HFW shenanigans. Almost never used legitimately, though.

The problem with Weapons of Legacy is they're basically a magic item that you have to put a ton of work and effort into that actively handicaps you. I'd much rather have just a plain ol' ordinary sword with some good attributes that you can commission or at worst have a party member make than a WoL that actively nerfs your attack rolls and hit points in exchange for doing the exact same thing.

[OldTrees1]

Out of curiosity: if you could have a Legacy Weapon for your current character, what would it be and do?

I have 3 "current" characters:

Bone Staff: Buff nearby undead
Knight's Shield: Shield allies
Locksmith's Gloves: Variety of burglary utility effects

[Luch Ri]

So it sounds like house-ruled versions of this are not unheard of since the flavor is fun but the mechanics are a pain.

yeah pretty much.

Honestly there are half a dozen easy house rules to fix this at least that I could think of off the top of my head, but the execution is up to you... and the DM naturally.

As for weapon? Axe of the bellows tears. I don't have a current character but I have already played 3 characters (two of them DM characters) over 3 generations that have all carried that family axe, and it was the first weapon I designed myself.

[Soranar]

The only useful legacy weapon I found was the one meant for a soulknife, it's basically the only way to boost your abilities. Combine that with legacy champion (which basically lets you customize your legacy weapon) and you have the equivalent of ancestral relic... which only takes 1 feat.

[Necroticplague]

The idea is excellent. Almost all the example weapons suck, the rules for making your own only produce incredibly 'meh' items, and you have to give up way too much in order to get them. The part about needing feats, but getting those feats for free when you do the ritual, always struck me as rather mechanically wonky. I just houserule Ancestral Relic to not require hallowed ground, or a good alignment, and it serves the same purpose. Heck, this way, you can even make your Relic intelligent!

[Red Fel]

The idea is excellent. Almost all the example weapons suck, the rules for making your own only produce incredibly 'meh' items, and you have to give up way too much in order to get them. The part about needing feats, but getting those feats for free when you do the ritual, always struck me as rather mechanically wonky. I just houserule Ancestral Relic to not require hallowed ground, or a good alignment, and it serves the same purpose. Heck, this way, you can even make your Relic intelligent!

This.

Look at the tables of powers you can give a Legacy Weapon. The vast, vast majority are easily reproducible with ordinary magic items. Enhancement bonuses. Per-day spells. Passive spell benefit (e.g. Comprehend Languages). You can slap most of these onto a magic item. Ancestral Relic and be done with it - the PC gets to custom-tailor the abilities as needed. Alternatively, you can have a pseudo-Ancestral Relic system wherein they burn items to "release the item's inner spirit," but you (as DM) choose appropriate abilities for said "inner spirit."

Going with an AR system allows you virtually all of the benefits of a Legacy Weapon, but without the obnoxious penalty costs, and the character can choose to level the weapon at his own rate - invest in other gear, or invest in empowering the Legacy Weapon. You as DM are still picking the relevant and thematic abilities, only now you're doing it without the irritating and awkward mechanics presented WoL.

[Darius Vibrtrar]

Inserting these into an already established campaign is... wonky and not apt to work in my experience, but If you were to create a campaign where everyone starts with a legacy weapon that grows with them and customizes to the character as they grow, I think players become more attached to the item.

[MisterKaws]

I've actually done it once with Mau-jehe and a Soulbow to make an effectively +24 weapon(with +3 soulbound for attack), I guess it's one of the few ways to make Soulbow not that suckish.

[JyP]

Look at the tables of powers you can give a Legacy Weapon. The vast, vast majority are easily reproducible with ordinary magic items. Enhancement bonuses. Per-day spells. Passive spell benefit (e.g. Comprehend Languages). You can slap most of these onto a magic item. Ancestral Relic and be done with it - the PC gets to custom-tailor the abilities as needed. Alternatively, you can have a pseudo-Ancestral Relic system wherein they burn items to "release the item's inner spirit," but you (as DM) choose appropriate abilities for said "inner spirit."

Going with an AR system allows you virtually all of the benefits of a Legacy Weapon, but without the obnoxious penalty costs, and the character can choose to level the weapon at his own rate - invest in other gear, or invest in empowering the Legacy Weapon. You as DM are still picking the relevant and thematic abilities, only now you're doing it without the irritating and awkward mechanics presented WoL.
On the other hand, with WoL system by default you get the legacy weapon for free - it does not count against your WBL (rituals are cheap, pricing for legacy items is not even described) - hence the reason for the much decried personal costs.

With an AR system you have to burn through your WBL, and it will cost a lot compared to a WoL system, where a few magic items counteract the personal costs - if the player wants to counter them, hence more flexibility on WBL use there.

[rrwoods]

To throw my two copper into the pile:

I'm currently playing a game where the DM has wanted to use the legacy weapon concept but understands rightly so that all the printed ones are awful. The things he's doing that are different are mostly the same ones suggested, but he's doing one thing I haven't seen suggested as well, so I thought I'd offer that up here.

The normally suggested stuff: hand-craft the abilities and penalties; specifically, make the penalties WAAAAY less severe than the ones in the printed weapons. He doesn't want to nix the penalties entirely, because the narrative of investing a piece of yourself into the item is compelling. Also the gp cost seems to be gone (although I can't really say yet as we've only seen one ritual/quest thus far).

The unorthodox thing: at the level right before it goes from least to lesser, offer a choice. (In fact, you could offer choices at any point, but this has a specific magic moment associated with it.) The choice made for the ability at level 10 determines what abilities the weapon has for levels 11-16. In this case, it's a choice between a permanent +2 Str or +2 Wis, for a cleric who might be focused on beating down or on defensive spell casting, depending on how the campaign goes and how his character develops. If he picks Str, the Lesser abilities will focus on combat prowess; if he picks Wis they'll focus on casting and protecting.

I thought this was a pretty cool idea; as a nice bonus, the DM hasn't determined what the Lesser abilities will be yet which helps reduce frontloaded cognitive load.

[Red Fel]

I thought this was a pretty cool idea; as a nice bonus, the DM hasn't determined what the Lesser abilities will be yet which helps reduce frontloaded cognitive load.

Funny thing about it - the idea isn't that unorthodox. The book contains a section on what it calls "dual legacy items," WoLs that possess alternate legacy ritual paths with alternate ability choices. One of the sample items, Merikel, gives a perfect example of this, with alternative abilities and rituals at each tier.

[LoyalPaladin]

I think they get little mention because the penalties are too much and the benefits are too little. I could dump a bunch of money into a non-legacy item and perform just as well.

However, we do have some custom ones lying around the forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399688-3-5-PF-GitP-Regulars-as-Weapons!-(of-Legacy-or-Weapons-Properties))...