Pathfinder monk samurai gestalt

[Koluminar]

Ok folks here's the deal,
Weapon adept monk//katana duelist samurai, dm has house ruled that i may use a katana as a monk weapon for this build. Im seeking to optimize my damage and build with this build. Im considering using the dimensional dervish feat chain because i plain love how it sounds.

Im looking for a damage optimization here. And survivability. I trust you guys got some creativity up your sleeves! Lets hear it!

[Florian]

Ok folks here's the deal,
Weapon adept monk//katana duelist samurai, dm has house ruled that i may use a katana as a monk weapon for this build. Im seeking to optimize my damage and build with this build. Im considering using the dimensional dervish feat chain because i plain love how it sounds.

Im looking for a damage optimization here. And survivability. I trust you guys got some creativity up your sleeves! Lets hear it!

Not really the best of combinations as both sides of the Gestalt provide very few synergetic benefits beyond being moderately good with a Katana and challenging foes once in a while.

[Koluminar]

Did you look up the archtypes?

[Florian]

Did you look up the archtypes?

Yes, I did.

[Koluminar]

Then what would you suggest for similar theme and better synergy?

[Sayt]

Y'know, if this was 3.pf, I'd totally suggest Kung Fu Genius (A feat from Dragon Compendium, use int instead of wis for Monk abilities that rely on Wis) Monk/Kensai Magus. Int to AC twice in a way that stacks, spell combat, Flurry, More D.door casts per day and more bonus feats. Consider asking your GM if you can have it?

[Koluminar]

I like it. But i hate how MAD the monk builds are. Str for damage, dex for ac, con for hp, int for skills and spells in the case of magus, wis for perception, and cha is really theonly dump stat

[Sayt]

Well, with Int+(1 int per level) to AC, you can drop dex pretty well. Perception is always nice, but so long as your party has it as well having a huge int mod isn't suuuper important. If it really is niggling you, grab the Empiricist Investigator to get Int to a whole bunch of skills.

[Florian]

Then what would you suggest for similar theme and better synergy?

First, talk to your GM about using the Unchained Monk instead of the plain vanilla Monk. Full BAB, less MAD because you can keep DEX lower due to other abilities to gain dodge boni to AC from KI powers and styles, in addition, a bit earlier access to Dimension Door. Monk of the Mantis would be an option to ramp up damage due to flurry of Sneak Attacks, depending on how your other party members are build.

Similar to using a Kensai-Magus, you could pick up Warpriest as your other Gestalt-side then. Uses more or less the exact same attribute allocation as the Monk does, meshes well with Flurry and can help you ramp up damage and survivability even more. Shizuku as deity should allow you to use a Katana.

Doing so would let you have both Dragon Style and the main parts of the Dimensional Dervish feats chains up at around lvl 8.

(Remember to use your Katana with two hands so you can flurry with 1,5x STR)

[Koluminar]

I forgot ro mention that i was using unchained monk, abundant step at lvl 6, warpriest huh?

[Sayt]

Abundant step is level 8 minimum.

But Warpriest is the other very good option, pick Shizuru as your deity for Katana, and get the Crusader's Flurry feat so you can flurry with your Katana. Pick up a Blade of the Sword-Saint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/blade-of-the-sword-saint) at some point in your careeer.

[Koluminar]

What about tge sacred fist archtype?

[Florian]

What about tge sacred fist archtype?

Sorry, mistyped Abundant Step. It´s 8th minimum, same as the supporting feat chain.

Sacred Fist and (Un)Monk are pretty much redundant and don´t bring anything to the table together. That would be more of a Gestalt-option to fit with a bad touch Cleric.

The goodie with sticking to baseline Warpriest is the free weapon Focus on the Katana, the free enhancements and the scaling damage die types, something that is lacking when normally flurrying with a Monk weapon. Quick-casting with Fervor is the icing on the cake.

The Crusader´s Flurry feat has been mentioned, Shizuku too, but there´re other great options here as well.

Only thing you should check with your GM, as the rules are not a 100% clear on that, is whether Saced Armor would work on regular bracers of armor.

[Koluminar]

Now for optimizations sake. We have two top builds here, one with kensI magus and temple sword, as the chosen weapon, and the other with warpriest, the extra feat, and katana. I see both builds being brutal. Lets find out the pros and cons of both.

[LTwerewolf]

If you don't want spellcasting, but don't mind the mechanics, stalker would work well with it as well. With the right stalker art, the deadly strike can be done on the first round of combat if you go first (imitating a quick draw). You also get wisdom to initiative (and reflex and other stuff), imitating a lightning fast reaction time.

With Path of War expanded, there's mithral current which you can swap out a known discipline (such as steel serpent) for it, which is also intended to mimic iaijutsu.

If kung fu genius is allowed, zweihander warder might be a better fit.

[Florian]

Ah, there it is, the inevitable PoW/3PP blurb. No OP thread without it....


Now for optimizations sake. We have two top builds here, one with kensI magus and temple sword, as the chosen weapon, and the other with warpriest, the extra feat, and katana. I see both builds being brutal. Lets find out the pros and cons of both.

Tough one. For Magus, I assume a plain vanilla Shocking Grasp Crit Fisher build.
(Note that Flurry and Spell Combat cancel each other out due to mechanics. Spellstrike works, tho, and is the bread-and-butter of SG builds anyway.)

Magus pros:
- Doesn´ have to spent a resource beyond spell slots to Spellstrike.
- Good selection of Arcana to supplement combat
- Magus can count as Fighter levels for bonus feat selection
- INT to AC and some other features.
- Spectacular Crits

Magus cons:
- Two resource pools to manage, would cost one Arcana to merge pools
- Slightly more MAD as INT is a relevant stat now, too
- Can only fight one-handed, no upping base damage due to high STR, lesser Power Attack gain

Warpriest pros:
- Scaling weapon damage, 1,5 STR, better Power Attack mileage
- Identical attribute allocation for easy item selection, less MAD
- Very good staying power due to easy free action self heals and quick buffing
- Useful (group)buffs due to Blessings, potential quick summoning
- Potentially devastating attacks due to Harm.

Warpest cons:
- Needs two resources to quick cast, the spell slot and Fervor.
- Fervor/Fervor´ed spells not coupled to weapon crit mechanic
- No use for Heavy Armor and Shield proficiency

Personal opinion: Basically, it´s a draw. The Magus can reach a higher power ceiling but is very item dependent to reach it, making it shine later in the game and being a PITA the first 5 levels or so, while the Warpriest is shiny from the get-go but can´t reach that kind of spectacular crits the Magus can.
Both classes are counted amongst the "Kings of DPS" for PF, but their resource mechanics also mean they can run empty fast.

[Koluminar]

Now would you reccomend the vanilla magus? Or go with kensai since armor isnt a thing? Technically as long as i have the slots cant i spellstrike with all my attacks in a flurry? I was thinking of how i could ply togue into the build. Especially since im planning to capitalize on dimensional dervish chain. Since i can give myself flanking wouldnt i be able to sneak attack every hit in a flurry? Max of +10d6 per hit in endgame? Thats dirty

[Koluminar]

Honestly id like to try to reduce the MAD as much as possible. So if there was a way to ger atk AND dmg from dex on my monk weapons, and unarmed. Thatd be great. That way i can dump str, if i go magus im pretty sure my dm will allow kung. Fu genious. So that eliminates wisdom, piles both abities into int, now. Id like it to be as dex based as possible thinking mugen from samurai champloo. As a primer, my dm is pretty lienient with crossing 3.5 into pathfinder. Just gotta have a reason to do it.(build specific usually)

[LTwerewolf]

Stalker art allows you to pick a weapon and apply weapon finesse and deadly agility to it at the same time, increasing the amount of weapons you can apply it to as you level up.

[Florian]

Now would you reccomend the vanilla magus? Or go with kensai since armor isnt a thing? Technically as long as i have the slots cant i spellstrike with all my attacks in a flurry? I was thinking of how i could ply togue into the build. Especially since im planning to capitalize on dimensional dervish chain. Since i can give myself flanking wouldnt i be able to sneak attack every hit in a flurry? Max of +10d6 per hit in endgame? Thats dirty

Flurry is a bit of a Problem as it is listed a a special kind of Full Attack Action. The Flurry rules state that no matter what you do, you can´t exceed the number of attacks that Flurry gives you, except by "Trigger"-abilities (Like riders or modifiers to it like Medusa´s Wrath). So you can´t integrate Spell Combat (it´s a form of TWF) or some Natural Attacks into a Flurry.

Spell Strike utilized the "Trigger" mechanic, so yes, you can do it once every Flurry as long as you have the slots for it (Keep Pearls of Power stocked). That´s your basic offensive power, as most likely, you try to metamagic a Shocking Grasp to cap at 10d6...

For the Sneak Attack, check out the Monk of the Mantis archetype. It exchanges most of the (Un)Monk bonus feats and some of the Ki Power slots (but not the 8th level one for Abundant Step) for a SA progression that´s give 1d6/4 levels.
A lvl 12 (Un)Monk can get up to around 9 attacks in a Flurry, so that stacks up. Add in either said Shocking Grasp or a heavy Fervor and we´re talking basic overkill here.

[Koluminar]

I like the mantis monk idea you have there. Can i use that with monk weapons? Or do i need to be unarmed? That being said. Temple sword monk weapon has a 19-20x2 crit range and the same damage die as a katana, plus its a trip weapon.

[Koluminar]

So i looked theough mantis archtype, and it felt underwhelming SA only during a flurry? Yea thats what i was going for but its limiting. I agree that endgame, my flurries would hit +15d6 with a 10d6 shocking grasp and a 5d6 sneakattack, im not sure if id rather focus on flanking and denyingg my opponent dex, to achieve consistent delivery

[Sayt]

So i looked theough mantis archtype, and it felt underwhelming SA only during a flurry? Yea thats what i was going for but its limiting. I agree that endgame, my flurries would hit +15d6 with a 10d6 shocking grasp and a 5d6 sneakattack, im not sure if id rather focus on flanking and denyingg my opponent dex, to achieve consistent delivery

If you pick up the dimensional dervish feat, flanking becomes easy, as you can flank with yourself.

[Koluminar]

I realize that, but as it stands thats endgame. Im looking for sustainability as i level.

[Florian]

I realize that, but as it stands thats endgame. Im looking for sustainability as i level.

Erm, why? You always open up with Stunning Fist to activate Medusa´s Wrath, that makes your target lose his Dex bonus to AC and therefore allows for SA.
If that´s not enough, get a Mauler (familiar archetype) Koala familiar at 3rd to have a flanking buddy and access to invisibility at 4th.

[Sayt]

Nope, stun does not deny dex, it just gives a +4 to hit.

[Florian]

The PRD says: "Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

[Sayt]

Huh, mea culpa, that was my screwup.

[Florian]

Huh, mea culpa, that was my screwup.

No biggie. But I think it´s clear now why I was wondering what the fuzz about SA is about on a Monk, a class that can use that pretty easily.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can use cantrips like Arcane Mark to Spellstrike, for reference.

[Koluminar]

What good is arcane mark in spellstriking? It does nothing beneficial.....

[Florian]

What good is arcane mark in spellstriking? It does nothing beneficial.....

He refers to a certain "Trigger"-Mechanik here that manages to include Spell Combat even in a Flurry.
Personaly, too high a level of cheese and I´ll not further comment on that.

[Koluminar]

Ok so i was thinking of capitalizing on a weapon, like temple sword. And finding a way to add my dex to both atk and dmg, i found deadly agility. That being said. Would i be more optimal forsaking weapons and the weapon adept archtype and focusing on stunning fist to achieve my flurry of sneak attacks? Or would i achieve better results from some light monk weapon?

[Koluminar]

Btw i plan to gestalt unchained monk witwh unchained rogue, figured id get some great versatility there. Take kung fu genious to reduce MAD so im workin with dex primary, and then inteligence and constitution, and whatever else i get can fall into wisdom and charisma, str is now a dump stat

[Koluminar]

If i take mantis archtype, will the dice stack with rogue for sneak attack?

[Florian]

If i take mantis archtype, will the dice stack with rogue for sneak attack?

There´s no answer to that.

The Gestalt rules were made with 3.5E core in mind, nothing else, and have never been updated to PF in any "legal" way.

Personal opinion: I´m pretty much against "over-stacking" of abilities as things get pretty wonky pretty fast. I think that the cap for any ability should be "core level 20". Beyond that, trouble starts and things break down pretty early in the game. You´ll notice that with any Smite, Sneak Attack or other heavy-duty scaling damage ability that is "at will".

[Grod_The_Giant]

He refers to a certain "Trigger"-Mechanik here that manages to include Spell Combat even in a Flurry.
Personaly, too high a level of cheese and I´ll not further comment on that.
I don't think I am. Flurry and Spell Combat are incompatible, since they're both specific full-round actions. What I'm referring to involves Spellstrike and Spell Combat. Spellstrike lets you effectively make an extra attack at full BAB during Spell Combat whenever you cast a touch spell. The Arcane Mark trick literally does nothing besides let you do your extra-attack-during-a-full-attack-with-all-attacks-at-a-minus-two-penalty schtick all day long. Y'know, the same thing that normal Monks get, or anyone with Rapid Shot, or anyone with TWF, or... you get the idea. You can use your primary mundane offense at will. Though now that I think about it it's not terribly relevant if you're going Monk, since Flurry doesn't provoke and uMonk doesn't have penalties. (But if all you want from Monk is Flurry, then hey...)

[Koluminar]

Thats a fair ruling. Niw with the idea of optimization, since stunning fist can deny dex, i want to optimistically crank off my sneak attack on every hit, or at least once every round. I plan on maxing acrobatics,

[Koluminar]

Bumpity bumpadump

[Florian]

Bumpity bumpadump

So, right now´re talking about (Un)Monk//(Un)Rogue? I must confess that I´ve lost a bit track there...

[Koluminar]

Yea, theblriginal idea has changed to unchained monk and inchained rogue. Its a better build than the samurai crap i came up with

[Florian]

Yea, theblriginal idea has changed to unchained monk and inchained rogue. Its a better build than the samurai crap i came up with

Well, that´s pretty easy then. Main focus will be the Monk part of the Gestalt, the Rogue part provides passives and expands on options. Rogue Talents will be "burned" on Ninja/Ki-related stuff. To keep it as simple and rules legal as possible, I go with using Unarmed Strike as main weapon used.

Base race: Dual-Talented Human (Dex/Wis) or Tengu.
Traits: Killer, Quain Martial Arts.
Affiliation: Pathfinder Society.

Roadmap to lvl 12:

(Un)Rogue:
1 - Weapon Finesse (B)
2 - Trick: Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick)
3 - Finesse Training (Unarmed Strike)
4 - Trick: Ninja Trick (Shadow Clone)
5 - Rogue´s Edge (Perception)
6 - Trick: Ninja Trick (Style - Mantis Style)
7
8 - Trick: Ninja Trick (Flurry of Stars)
9
10 - Advanced Trick: Ninja Trick (Invisible Blade), Rogue´s Edge (Athletics)
11 - Finesse Training (Shortsword/Wakizashi/Shuriken)
12 - Advanced Trick: Ninja Trick (Shadow Split)

(Un)Monk:
1 - Dodge
2 - Improved Trip
3
4 - Ki Power: X
5 - Style Strike: Leg Sweep
6 - Medusa´s Wrath, Ki Power: Elemental Fury
7
8 - Ki Power: Abundant Step
9
10 - Style Strike: Spin Kick, Dimensional Assault, Ki Power: Qinggong - Ki Leech
11
12 - Ki Power: X

Feats and Attribute Ups:
1 - Mobility
2
3 Combat Reflexes
4 - +1 WIS
5 Extra Ki
6
7 Vicious Stomp
8 - +1 WIS
9 Dimensional Agility
10
11 Extra Ki
12 - +1 DEX

This is a pretty raw (not meaning RAW) build showcasing how it can be done and what synergies could be achieved. This build is pretty much a Ki hog, that´s why I haven´t gone deeper into the whole Ki Powers/Qinggong thing.
Items revolve around the usual path: Shozoku of the Nigh Sky, Necklace of Ki Serenity, a couple of Earthfire Shuriken, and so on. Later on, you´ll do the "heavy" investment into a Luckblade and a bunch of Candles of Invocation anyways.

[Sayt]

Looks decent, however (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained#TOC-Bonus-Feat), you're taking Improved Trip and Gorgon's Wrath too early: Improved trip is available as a bonus feat at 6, not 2, and Wrath at 10, not 6, and Dimensional Assault can't be taken as Monk Bonus feat (Unless your GM is messing round with the uMonk.)

[GreyBlack]

Then what would you suggest for similar theme and better synergy?

I guess my question is: what is your theme? Just Eastern Martial Artist? A guy who's good at Kung fu? Or more of the Samurai theme, the noble warrior who girds himself to defend others?

As such, I'm going to suggest Fighter, with Bard VMC if you want to go more the Samurai route, otherwise go with Paladin, specializing in mounted combat if you go the other way.

[Florian]

Looks decent, however (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained#TOC-Bonus-Feat), you're taking Improved Trip and Gorgon's Wrath too early: Improved trip is available as a bonus feat at 6, not 2, and Wrath at 10, not 6, and Dimensional Assault can't be taken as Monk Bonus feat (Unless your GM is messing round with the uMonk.)

You´re right. There´re errors in there. Like I wrote: This is only a rough take at it to see where it leads. The final build would need to be more precise, incorporate all of the aspects (like Ki and items) and so on. In my opinion, the best build doesn´t help if it is not a) fun and b) someone doesn´t know how to leverage all of the options to gain the highest result. So, right now, there´s feedback needed to continue into the more detailed version.

For example, I could imagine using Strix as a base race and also look into some of their racial feats, which would shift around some other things here, but would have the most impact on the actual role-playing.

[Koluminar]

Strix really? Im honestly surprised, why that race?

[Florian]

Strix really? Im honestly surprised, why that race?

Mostly for the Low-Light and Darkvision. Natural flight is just a bonus here. This character is heavy on the stealth and invisibility side of things and I find it to be a flaw to lug around a torch or light spell then.

Edit - Small anecdote - Back in the days, a Human Rogue in the Citadel of Endless Night:
Rogue: I scout ahead!
Me: You know, all lies in darkness and the kobolds can see in darkness. You carry a light source of some kind?
Rogue: Yes, I´ve got that Bulls-eye Lantern.
Me: Ok, so you light your lantern and then begin to scout ahead. Two rooms over, you can hear yapping kobold voices coming from the next room.
Rogue: I pick the lock and enter the room. What do I see?
Me: There´re four Kobolds there, two of them look to be some tribal shamans or casters. They´re looking puzzled in your direction, yap about something and the casters begin chanting... roll inish please.
Rogue: What? Why? I´m hidden, I did good hide and move silently rolls! What the heck?
Me: They don´t react to you, but to the light of your bull´s eye lantern ....