Spellthief/Archivist Theurge advice?

[gadren]

So, I'm playing Alotta Dablin, a spellthief/archivist in a Pathfinder game that allows all 3.5 content. The spellthief has the trickster ACF, which means that she gets spells at a bard's (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard)rate (and may learn any bard spell or any spellthief spell [ie all wizard spells except evocation, conjuration, and necromancy]).

She is currently level 2: spellthief 1/ archivist 1. She can already cast 2nd level spells from each class thanks to Precocious Apprentice and Mad Faith, so she'll be able to go Mystic Theurge at 4th level (the lowest level possible to have the required skill ranks).

I'm debating what to take for her third level. A level in archivist means she is getting higher level spells that much sooner. But Spellthief 2 gives Steal Spell Effect, which sounds really fun. What do you think I should pick?

Also, any thoughts for the future of this build? The intention is a jack of all trades that can cast both divine and arcane magic, steal other people's magic, and can also play the "rogue" (which I've accomplished with a trait and alternate race feature that gave me most of my rogue class skills after losing them to the Trickster ACF).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Spellthief is a really bad multiclass option for a simple reason - the majority of the classes utility are its class features, not its spellcasting.
Using it for an entry into Mystic Theurge gets you absolutely nothing since even Master Spellthief doesn't progress most of them.

The same is true for the rogue (skillmonkey) part. It doesn't matter if you have them as class skills because you simply won't have the skill points to keep up on your rogue skills as a Mystic Theurge.
Even with high Int you can cover the necessities for spellcasters and maybe 1-2 more, but not everything you need for a skillmonkey.

In the end your build idea ends up as a crappy arcane caster (because spellthief casting sucks even with the ACF), a crappy skillmonkey (because you don't have the skillpoints to fulfill the role) and a crappy divine caster (because you gave up progression for the first two without getting any value out of it).

In short, if you want to be a Spellthief you need to actually stay in the class for the greater part of your build, because that's the only way to get spellthief abilities.
If you want a rogue/caster hybrid you need high skill points and minimal CL loss. Your best option for that is Unseen Seer on a Rogue 1/Wizard 4 base, but there's an (inferior) divine option in Shadowbane Stalker
If you want to be a theurge without crippling yourself you actually need to get good casting from both sides, not just one. And theurges just don't get enough skillpoints for a skillmonkey.

[nedz]

As above, but also:

Archivist grants spells - so that's obviously more powerful FWIW
Spellthief sounds more fun, well this isn't a powerful build so why not ?

You are trying to do to much with this build - but I suspect that you know that.

I'd be tempted to go Archivist with the single level in Spellthief mainly for a few tricks. This will probably be quite good at low level, but then fall off marginally due to the lost caster level.

It depends on the rest of the party and the style of the game you are playing in really. Do you need the raw power to compete - or is it a more low tier affair ?

[gadren]

As above, but also:

Archivist grants spells - so that's obviously more powerful FWIW
Spellthief sounds more fun, well this isn't a powerful build so why not ?

You are trying to do to much with this build - but I suspect that you know that.


It depends on the rest of the party and the style of the game you are playing in really. Do you need the raw power to compete - or is it a more low tier affair ?

Yeah, I'm now wondering why I bothered asking here, the purer the archivist the more optimal is the obvious answer.
The whole reason I went this route is that the rest of the party are on average moderate optimizers, so I decided to intentionally spread myself thin to cover whatever they couldn't handle and not overshadow anyone, while still using op cheese to make it work as much as possible. So this is a judgement call only I can make relative to how I perform relative to everyone else. Sorry to waste your time.

I would like to note that I disagree about not being able to be a trapper because of skill points, though. I'm a human with 21 int, and will have 22 at level 4; I've got an extra 7 points per level. So 9 per level of MT. Enough to progress bluff, disable device, perception, spellcraft, stealth, use magic device and three other skills each level. Yeah, not a true "skill monkey" but I never claimed that was the goal. EDIT: sorry, I realize that saying play the "rogue" was misleading, I meant in terms of the niche people typically expect of rogues (trap finding, disabling traps, opening locks, stealing, and sneaking)

[sleepyphoenixx]

I would like to note that I disagree about not being able to be a trapper because of skill points, though. I'm a human with 21 int, and will have 22 at level 4; I've got an extra 7 points per level. So 9 per level of MT. Enough to progress bluff, disable device, perception, spellcraft, stealth, use magic device and three other skills each level. Yeah, not a true "skill monkey" but I never claimed that was the goal. EDIT: sorry, I realize that saying play the "rogue" was misleading, I meant in terms of the niche people typically expect of rogues (trap finding, disabling traps, opening locks, stealing, and sneaking)

You can cover that, but you're losing out on knowledge skills which is generally a pretty big part of caster build, but that's not that big a problem if you just spend 1 rank in each and rely on your Int.

I missed the Pathfinder in your OP and assumed 3.5 skills, which would have been a lot more difficult. With PF skills it's a lot easier to cover that role.

[ATHATH]

Have you considered going Spellthief 5/Ur-Priest 1/Spellthief 4/MT 9/Spellthief 1? With Master Spellthief, that build gets to steal 9th level spells, and switches to Full-Casting around the level where martials and semi-casters start to truly be obsolete. It also gets the ability to steal Epic Spells at level 20, when they start to become more common.

[gadren]

Have you considered going Spellthief 5/Ur-Priest 1/Spellthief 4/MT 9/Spellthief 1? With Master Spellthief, that build gets to steal 9th level spells, and switches to Full-Casting around the level where martials and semi-casters start to truly be obsolete. It also gets the ability to steal Epic Spells at level 20, when they start to become more common.

With this GM I typically build with the assumption that we will gain at the very most 12 levels before the campaign peters out and we start a new one. It takes about one month per level at lower levels, and a couple to a few months per level after level 5. So, starting at level 2, I'm really only planning for up to level 14, and honestly it is much more likely she'll never get beyond level 8.

[ATHATH]

Ah. Have you considered straight Spellthief with a Cloistered Cleric dip? Mad Faith should get you pretty far in a low level environment, and Spellthief has the Godsblood ACF for more Pseudo-Cleric goodness. If you choose to channel Negative Energy and pick up the Deathbound domain, you can pick up some +Rebuking/Turning items and get a small group of undead going. Bloodlines can advance both your Rebuking and your maximum sealable spell level. You could also take Alternative Source spell and make a DMM build, or use Versatile Spellcaster to cast Cleric spells with Spellthief slots.

Going Spellthief 5/Chameleon X is also an option, since you won't encounter 6th level spells until around level 9-11 or so.

[nedz]

Well he's already level 2, but he could treat the Archivist as a dip. Doing this depends upon how many levels of Archivist he wanted, but it doesn't sound like he's that bothered about the Archivist class features so this might be good.

Godsblood is interesting - assuming we can still find the web page ?

Ed: Found it (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606).