Distilled Joy Factory

[Alistaroc]

So I have a player looking at building a Scrollificer, and wants to open a sort of Ambrosia Hospital to cover her XP costs for crafting. I'm unclear on how that would work though.

The casting time for Distilled Joy is 24 hours... it seems like the only way to make it work would be casting Persistent + Extended Elation and then casting Distilled Joy.
Can someone please explain to me how the hell that's supposed to work?

I've also seen mention of Spell Clocks and Resetting Traps.
Seems to me you could create a Distilled Joy Spell Clock for 130,000 gold, or simply pay 7,500 gold for a Resetting Trap of Distilled Joy. Since it's beginning casting every round, once 24 hours have passed, the first spell activates, and the round after that, it repeats, and so on. This allows one creature per turn to be affected by Distilled Joy. With a 12,00 gold Item of Continuous Elation, that's 2 XP each round. That's 28,800 XP per day.

So it seems doable if the Resetting Trap/Spell Clock works as I've read it, but I'm then faced with the issue of the outrageous amount of 28,800 XP per day. That's also 1.44 million gold of Ambrosia if sold. How can I allow such an Ambrosia Factory(I really want to allow it, it fits really well with the character) but limit the amount of XP it produces per day to something more reasonable, like a couple hundred maximum?

[Doctor Despair]

How can I allow such an Ambrosia Factory(I really want to allow it, it fits really well with the character) but limit the amount of XP it produces per day to something more reasonable, like a couple hundred maximum?

If you allow the Distilled Joy trick, they essentially get infinite XP and such. If you are super concerned about them selling the ambrosia, then you, as the DM, could just say that there are no people interested in buying it. Make all the other crafters be super put off by the idea of it and refuse to touch the stuff or something. It's your world, haha. Alternatively, if they are just trying to avoid XP costs, you could just hand-wave XP costs entirely and avoid the Joy trick entirely. If infinite crafting XP still seems too broken, then this factory just isn't the right thing for your campaign. Try giving the player a crafting reserve like an artificer, which basically means the player gets a certain amount of XP each level to craft with for free, separate from their character XP. Calculate how many sessions should go by before the player levels up, think about how many items you'd be comfortable with the player making, and give them an appropriate reserve. Hope that helps. :)

[Alistaroc]

If you allow the Distilled Joy trick, they essentially get infinite XP and such. If you are super concerned about them selling the ambrosia, then you, as the DM, could just say that there are no people interested in buying it. Make all the other crafters be super put off by the idea of it and refuse to touch the stuff or something. It's your world, haha. Alternatively, if they are just trying to avoid XP costs, you could just hand-wave XP costs entirely and avoid the Joy trick entirely. If infinite crafting XP still seems too broken, then this factory just isn't the right thing for your campaign. Try giving the player a crafting reserve like an artificer, which basically means the player gets a certain amount of XP each level to craft with for free, separate from their character XP. Calculate how many sessions should go by before the player levels up, think about how many items you'd be comfortable with the player making, and give them an appropriate reserve. Hope that helps. :)
I know it'd be much simpler to just use the XP:Gold transparency rule of 1:5, but the Ambrosia Hospital is a really good concept I feel, since it fits so well with the character. And while of course it's doable with no reward, I feel like it should be rewarding. Hell, 100 XP a day seems like enough really.

However, I really like the idea of not being able to liquidate(no pun intended) the Ambrosia. I think I'll write that in; something about the stuff being seen as only used by Celestials or Infernals, poison to most mortals, etc.

[ryu]

I know it'd be much simpler to just use the XP:Gold transparency rule of 1:5, but the Ambrosia Hospital is a really good concept I feel, since it fits so well with the character. And while of course it's doable with no reward, I feel like it should be rewarding. Hell, 100 XP a day seems like enough really.

However, I really like the idea of not being able to liquidate(no pun intended) the Ambrosia. I think I'll write that in; something about the stuff being seen as only used by Celestials or Infernals, poison to most mortals, etc.

Just look at what it's actually used for and ask yourself one simple question. Of the people who would desire this substance who lacks the ability to set up their own farm? Good evil or neutral all have easy ways of farming craft XP. Evil people just call theirs liquid pain.

[Alistaroc]

Just look at what it's actually used for and ask yourself one simple question. Of the people who would desire this substance who lacks the ability to set up their own farm? Good evil or neutral all have easy ways of farming craft XP. Evil people just call theirs liquid pain.
Pardon me, but I fail to see what your point is... Yes, Ambrosia has a counterpart in Liquid Pain. I said nothing about alignment restrictions on XP farms...

[Jack_Simth]

So I have a player looking at building a Scrollificer, and wants to open a sort of Ambrosia Hospital to cover her XP costs for crafting. I'm unclear on how that would work though.
Well, there's a couple of different variations on it; most of them revolve around getting Distilled Joy (Book of Exalted Deeds) or Liquid Pain (Book of Vile Darkness) cast for free, and forcing someone into a suitable state. Generally, that's automatic reset magic device traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost) for the main spell, (Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain (Book of Vile Darkness page 115) if going with Distilled Joy), and some source of extreme pain (Symbol of Pain spell, just use regular sick people, cast Eternity of Torment, whatever).

Given that your player is looking at a hospital, you're most likely looking at:
1) Automatic Reset Magic Device traps of Distilled Joy in the hospital beds.
2) Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain to relieve suffering for the afflicted (which, "incidentally", qualify the patients for Distilled Joy).

Get sick people, hook them up, let them sit for however long the DM (you) requires for it to work, collect the distilled joy, cure them (whether that be by Heal checks, spell, or whatever), and let them be on their way.


So it seems doable if the Resetting Trap/Spell Clock works as I've read it, but I'm then faced with the issue of the outrageous amount of 28,800 XP per day. That's also 1.44 million gold of Ambrosia if sold. How can I allow such an Ambrosia Factory(I really want to allow it, it fits really well with the character) but limit the amount of XP it produces per day to something more reasonable, like a couple hundred maximum?

That's simple:
The duration is Permanent, and the target is the person. Spells don't stack with themselves, so you can get one dose of ambrosia out of each patient. If you try to dispel it early, you also dispel the ambrosia you just created.

Done that way, your per-day is limited to the number of patients who come in that day, and your total supply at one time is limited to the number of people that have been through the hospital (repeat customers happen, but unless the ambrosia from the last time has already been used, you don't get any benefit out of it). This means that the numbers can be whatever you, the DM, like, as it's all NPC interactions based on NPC needs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Simple solution: it takes the trap as long to cast as the spellcaster. Each trap in the facility produces one dose of ambrosia per day.

Also possibly of note; the target of the spell has to be feeling intense pleasure or joy for the spell to function at all. It distills existing feelings, it does not induce them. A hospital hardly feels like an appropriate setting.

[ryu]

Pardon me, but I fail to see what your point is... Yes, Ambrosia has a counterpart in Liquid Pain. I said nothing about alignment restrictions on XP farms...

Simple. No one is interested in buying ambrosia, because the only people who would actually want it have methods of getting it that are more efficient than buying it.

[Irk]

I made a proper experience farm a while back, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?334500-Experience-Collection), or in my sig. Should do the trick. You can optimize the production of distilled joy, liquid pain, and collected souls for the best amount of GP and EXP, but it can be tweaked I imagine.

EDIT: My farm is related but it's not a distilled joy farm. It's a torture factory. Sorry for misleading.

The best way I've heard of to make a distilled joy factory is to open a brothel and harvest from that. Very good RP potential, and it should be a functional way of creating a farm without resorting to resetting traps, or spell clocks. Personally I think spell clocks are a bit more elegant than resetting magical traps, but I can't deny that resetting magical traps are ultimately going to be the more malleable tool.

[Crake]

Every time I see the use of spell clocks or resetting traps for ambrosia, I can't help but remember the part where it says items take as long to cast a spell as it would take normally. There is a way partially around the 24 hour issue, which is to use the rapid spell metamagic, which reduces 24 hours down to 1 hour, so 24 ambrosias per day is nice, but far from the ridiculous 14400 that they supposedly came up with.

The other option would be to somehow get an 11th level spell slot and innate spell for distilled joy, but that would require the caster to be present and casting it all day long.

[Irk]

Every time I see the use of spell clocks or resetting traps for ambrosia, I can't help but remember the part where it says items take as long to cast a spell as it would take normally. There is a way partially around the 24 hour issue, which is to use the rapid spell metamagic, which reduces 24 hours down to 1 hour, so 24 ambrosias per day is nice, but far from the ridiculous 14400 that they supposedly came up with.

The other option would be to somehow get an 11th level spell slot and innate spell for distilled joy, but that would require the caster to be present and casting it all day long.

This is a really good point, I think liquid pain is just a better way of doing it really. Without metamagic, the only way of making it viable is by having like a million spell clocks/traps running at the same time. Which I guess you could do, but it's kind of pointless when liquid pain and souls are just so much easier to work with.

[Alistaroc]

Every time I see the use of spell clocks or resetting traps for ambrosia, I can't help but remember the part where it says items take as long to cast a spell as it would take normally. There is a way partially around the 24 hour issue, which is to use the rapid spell metamagic, which reduces 24 hours down to 1 hour, so 24 ambrosias per day is nice, but far from the ridiculous 14400 that they supposedly came up with.

The other option would be to somehow get an 11th level spell slot and innate spell for distilled joy, but that would require the caster to be present and casting it all day long.
Wow, you win this thread. Rapid Spell Distilled Joy is perfect; throw it in a hospital with Cure Disease, Cure Light Wounds, and Elation, and you've got yourself a functioning Ambrosia Hospital! 24, or 48 vials of Ambrosia a day is perfect too.

Thanks a million :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Can you have a simulacrum/ice assassin using Uncanny Forethought to cast the spell as a full-round action? You're limited by slots, but it's a full round action per casting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wouldn't a continuous item of distilled joy work? A standard action to pick it up means the character is immediately affected by the spell, allowing you to extract the ambrosia. Then a free action to hand it off (ie, drop) and a move action to move out, and the next person in line can pick it up.

[Extra Anchovies]

Given that your player is looking at a hospital, you're most likely looking at:
1) Automatic Reset Magic Device traps of Distilled Joy in the hospital beds.
2) Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain to relieve suffering for the afflicted (which, "incidentally", qualify the patients for Distilled Joy).

Get sick people, hook them up, let them sit for however long the DM (you) requires for it to work, collect the distilled joy, cure them (whether that be by Heal checks, spell, or whatever), and let them be on their way.

It's like I always say: nipple clamps are the best medicine.

[unseenmage]

Shield Guardian or Spellstitched (MM2?) undead can have both Distilled Joy and the Elation spell from the same book and combine them to farm the stuff from Spell-Like Abilities that only take a standard action. (Pathfinder Homunculus can also be given SLAs.)

I personally prefer the Spellsong Nightingale (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070115a) and the use of Create Water + Water to Acid (Stormwrack) for free money.

Back when I used it (my DM allowed infinite wealth to see what I could make of it) I used Greater Humanoid Essence (Races? of Eberron I think) to make my Dedicated Wright Homunculus count as a Humanoid and set him up where he could supply me with constant Distilled Joy.

Be aware as well that resetting traps can be built into books and weapons as per either one of the DMGs or Complete Scoundrel IIRC. Makes the normally cumbersome repeating trap portable. There's also the Spell Turret (definitely from one of the DMGs) which by RAW isn't accessible to players but if allowed makes the whole process much easier as it can have 2 more spellsa dded to it (for me it was Suggestion and a random buff spell).

Word to the wise, please don't tell the player they can have the thing then gut its usability. The player obviously asked for the thing so they could play with that toy. Letting them look at the toy they wanted to play with but making it useless to them is the worst cruelty. Just tell them no and be done with it. Don't make them spin their wheels. Telling them no outright will afford them the opportunity to reroute their energies into something they can actually get to play with.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shield Guardian or Spellstitched (MM2?) undead can have both Distilled Joy and the Elation spell from the same book and combine them to farm the stuff from Spell-Like Abilities that only take a standard action. (Pathfinder Homunculus can also be given SLAs.)

Quoth the SRD
A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.

[unseenmage]

Quoth the SRD

Hmmm, I'm trying to remember how I did it. There's some class or another that gets other classes spells as SLAs and can take the casting time down to a standard action.
Apologies for the vagueness. Really wish I could remember.

[Jack_Simth]

Quoth the SRD
Ah, but there's different wording in different spots, and the SRD really only uses one of them. If you check the Errata (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata) for the PHB, MM, and DMG, all three have the same basic blurb at the top:
Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
a table entry. An individual spell description takes
precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.
(copy/pasted straight from the PDF, emphasis added)

So while the PHB lists spell-like abilities uses the SRD wording on page 180, it's not the primary source. Monster Manual page 315 just has it as "Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise" in the glossary. However, it's not clear whether the "noted otherwise" is permitted to be in the base spell description or if it needs to be in the spell-like ability description. Likewise, there's another entry for it on page 142 of the PHB, that uses "The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise" - like the Monster Manual entry, it's unclear if the notes otherwise is in the spell-like ability description or the spell description.

So basically, it's not clear. The PHB page 180 wording is usually going to be the most restrictive, but it's officially not the one that dominates. The Monster Manual page 315 entry is technically the one that dominates, but doesn't say where things need to be noted for it to not be a standard action anymore. Going with PHB page 180 / SRD wording is probably the best choice in general... but it's not the only way a DM can rule.

[Alistaroc]

Word to the wise, please don't tell the player they can have the thing then gut its usability. The player obviously asked for the thing so they could play with that toy. Letting them look at the toy they wanted to play with but making it useless to them is the worst cruelty. Just tell them no and be done with it. Don't make them spin their wheels. Telling them no outright will afford them the opportunity to reroute their energies into something they can actually get to play with.
Uhh, no offense, but it seems to me if a player is interested in the concept, and yet doesn't want to break the game, it's perfectly fine to tone down the power of something like this so they can have it.

[unseenmage]

Uhh, no offense, but it seems to me if a player is interested in the concept, and yet doesn't want to break the game, it's perfectly fine to tone down the power of something like this so they can have it.

I agree. I was more trying to convey that one must make sure this is the case. Too many a time have I read about or had happen to me where a good intentioned DM cannot say no and instead 'tones down' a request hoping the player will get the hint.

Has been my experience that humans are rarely skilled at taking hints. So I advise against them on occasion.