Ways to defend yourself against vorpal?

[KHillBox]

As the title says, I'm curious what ways there are to defend yourself, as a PC, against the vorpal weapon enhancement. Currently my DM thinks it's the only way to kill my character, he's obviously wrong, but I'd like to take that away from him :) lol

[ATHATH]

Do Necropolitans need their heads?

[Twilightwyrm]

Anything that makes you immune to critical hits (since the Vorpal Ability requires a successful crit confirmation) should provide immunity.
The spell Death Ward might also work, as Vorpal could be classified as a Death Effect that simply doesn't effect creatures not effected by the loss of their heads.
Nothing else comes to mind at the moment, but I'm sure other stuff exists.

[Jack_Simth]

Shapechange into a headless creature, such as an Ooze.

[TheCrowing1432]

Play as that one Extraplanair race with no necks

[AlanBruce]

I doubt decapitation has a [Death] effect tagged to it, but if you are immune to critical hits (be it from a race or spells), you should be fine.

Spellwise, Elemental Body (SpC) should render you immune to crits and thus a vorpal's decapitation ability.

There is also the four Heart of X spells, which give you total fortification and no crits (which means no decapitation).

[Vizzerdrix]

I could have sworn vorpal was based on rolling a 20, not if you crit.

Either way, see if any luck feats or spells or domains can cause an opponent to reroll an attack. Id look but my books are on my dead laptop.

[Jowgen]

Crit immunity will not cut it (no pun intended).


Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. A flaming burst weapon, for example, does extra fire damage on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs.
When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage.

Death Ward likely won't work either, as Vorpal -in addition to lacking specific mention of being a Death Effect- does not meet the glossary defition that passes for death effect.
A spell or special ability that instantly slays the target, such as finger of death. Neither raise dead nor reincarnation can grant life to a creature slain by a death attack, though resurrection and more powerful effects can. In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive. In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points. The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.

I used to think Delay Death might work, as Vorpal doesn't destroy enough of the body to prevent raise dead afaik; but its specific limitation to HP damage kinda kills that idea.

[nedz]

Either way, see if any luck feats or spells or domains can cause an opponent to reroll an attack. Id look but my books are on my dead laptop.

Advantageous Avoidance is the feat you are looking for, but you still need to grab another one because the trick requires 2 and it still only forces a re-roll.

Picking up some Miss-chances would be a good trick also.

[Shadowquad]

While I agree that crit immunity will not protect you against the vorpal effect, becoming a necropolitan is still probably your best bet, as the SRD description of the vorpal effect states that undead creatures other than vampires are not affected by the loss of their heads.

If you want to retain your creature type, there is a spell called Pact of Return (Cleric 7, HoH p131) that grants you a true resurrection without gold or xp cost if you guess correctly the circumstances of your death.

[Toilet Cobra]

the SRD description of the vorpal effect states that undead creatures other than vampires are not affected by the loss of their heads.

This is very much true, but am I the only one who thought that this rule was odd? I mean, you can kill a zombie or a skeleton or even a mummy by bashing it in the head repeatedly with your mace. Why is removing the head entirely not just a quicker version of the same thing?

Also, it may be hard to convince the DM trying to kill the OP to not point out how similar vampires and Necropolitans are and rule that Vorpal works on any sentient undead.

[Zancloufer]

As said before not having a head is a pretty good defense. Alternately having too many heads also works.

"Oh whats that you cut off ONE of my heads? Good thing I'm a Hydra and have 5-20 more!".

Also Manticore Parry (and a few other maneuvers) are a thing. It's a level 7 martial maneuver iirc, but it lets you counter an attack by rolling higher and doesn't specify that nat-20s overcome it. Deflect/Reflect that vorpal strike back at them! Actually had that happen in a game with a Balor. Was pretty funny when he cut his own head off.

[Starbuck_II]

Lumi are an outsider race says they have no neck, so no vorpal effects them (their head floats as if a neck).

[martixy]

Crit immunity will not cut it (no pun intended).

Btw, the ambiguous wording of the Fortification property, taken on its own could be construed as negating all effects of a critical hit.

And I just noticed this, but I've seen claims that vorpal isn't really a critical hit effect, just a thing that happens on a specific die roll. But by the rules of duck typing, it is one.

[Necroticplague]

I remember there's an enchanted shield that makes you immune to vorpal weapons in a dragon magazine. Forget the name or the magazine, though.

Having Regeneration should help. Since your body parts grow back, being decapitated should be a mild inconvenience (dead for a few minutes while your head grows back, someone else can hold your head to your neck to revive you). You can pick it up with the Troll-blooded feat.

There's also being a Lernean creature. Sure, one head will die, but two more will grow back in a bit.

Lumi don't have necks to decapitate.

[Clistenes]

The Collar of Tusmit protects you against decapitation, plus grants +2 to natural armor. It is worth 41,200 gp.

However, it is an unofficial conversion of a 2nd edition item made by a third party (http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan/conversions/WOG-MIC.pdf).


I remember there's an enchanted shield that makes you immune to vorpal weapons in a dragon magazine. Forget the name or the magazine, though.

The Star Tortoise Shield, from the Dragon Magazine 335 pag 70.

EDIT: Of course, you DM won't allow you to buy or craft any of them.

[KHillBox]

So as I already have a character, being something of another race wont work for said character. Barbarian/Frenzied berserker doing the 2h dance so a shield wont work either.
Looking for "normal" means of countering it i.e items/feats.
Some good ideas though so far.

[frogglesmash]

If you want to go a little overboard you could try to get yourself the Worm that Walks template. I'm petty sure a wriggling mass of worms doesn't have a proper head. On a semi related note, how does vorpal affect beholders? And on an even less related note, how does the Multi-Headed template affect a beholder? Is it like Koffing evolving into Weezing.

[Necroticplague]

So as I already have a character, being something of another race wont work for said character. Barbarian/Frenzied berserker doing the 2h dance so a shield wont work either.
Looking for "normal" means of countering it i.e items/feats.
Some good ideas though so far.

Animated Shields are compatible with 2-handed fighting, so an Animated Star Tortoise shield is still an option. Expensive one, but still an option.

[KHillBox]

What does the star Tortoise shield do and what book is it in? Or is that the one that's in the Dragon magazine that Necroticplague mentioned? If so what issue #?

[zergling.exe]

What does the star Tortoise shield do and what book is it in? Or is that the one that's in the Dragon magazine that Necroticplague mentioned? If so what issue #?


The Star Tortoise Shield, from the Dragon Magazine 335 pag 70.

EDIT: Of course, you DM won't allow you to buy or craft any of them.

There ya go.

[Jowgen]

That Star Tortoise shield is messed up. It's price tag of 18.157 pg is exactly what a normal +3 Heavy Shield would cost. By all rights, the +1 Natural armor should be another 2000 gp, and then the Vorpal Immunity should be on top of that.

EDIT: Also, the phrasing "immune to the decapitating ability of a Vorpal weapon or similar effects" can easily be read to also include things like Illithid brain extraction, or at least, that of a Tentacle WSA weapon.

[Graypairofsocks]

A Sirrush has an ability which makes it resistant to losing its head:


Headloss Resistance (Ex)

A sirrush’s thick bony plate protects its neck like a shield and provides resistance from effects that could normally behead it, such as a vorpal weapon. When a sirrush or three-headed sirrush would otherwise lose its head, it instead makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ HD of attacker + attacker’s Str modifier). On a failed save, the sirrush’s head leaves its shoulders normally, but on a successful save, the sirrush is unaffected by the beheading. A sirrush dies when beheaded; a three-headed sirrush goes on fighting until all its heads are lost (the only penalty it incurs is one or two fewer bite attacks when it makes a full attack).
However it is a creature from the Epic level handbook.


Lumi are an outsider race says they have no neck, so no vorpal effects them (their head floats as if a neck).

They don't have necks in their art as well.
One thing that might be annoying for anyone trying to play them is that their race doesn't like any sort of deception.

[Bohandas]

The Pact of Return spell from Heroes of Horror allows you to be automatically resurrected of you die in the manner you predict

[MisterKaws]

This is very much true, but am I the only one who thought that this rule was odd? I mean, you can kill a zombie or a skeleton or even a mummy by bashing it in the head repeatedly with your mace. Why is removing the head entirely not just a quicker version of the same thing?

Also, it may be hard to convince the DM trying to kill the OP to not point out how similar vampires and Necropolitans are and rule that Vorpal works on any sentient undead.

Not on D&D, the bodies are animated by negative energy, so it doesn't really matter if they have a head or not, though they need it to see, so most like their heads in place.

Vampires are kinda 10% alive, so they still need their heads to stay... err, undead, I guess. Necropolitans, on the other hand, are people killed in a satanic ritual, which keeps their consciousness and body shape intact, but otherwise is, in any other form, equal to being raised as a zombie or whatever.

[Bohandas]

If a necropolitan's (or other intelligent undead) head gets cut off do both parts remain animate like the rival mad-scientist from ReAnimator, or just the head?

[Âmesang]

The Collar of Tusmit protects you against decapitation, plus grants +2 to natural armor.
Like the Guardian from Highlander: The Source? :smalltongue:

"There can be only me!"

[KHillBox]

Thanks for all the suggestions!
I'm sure I'll be able to figure something out that fits

[MisterKaws]

If a necropolitan's (or other intelligent undead) head gets cut off do both parts remain animate like the rival mad-scientist from ReAnimator, or just the head?

I think both, they just need to reattach later.

[Magma Armor0]

Pardon me for trying to cut the Gordian knot, but...

Doesn't "Don't get hit" qualify as a solution? Stay out of range, have a really good Hide Check, be invisible, etc. Or a wand of disjunction to "fix" the problems.

[Jack_Simth]

Ah, yes. An Antimagic Field would work too - if it's not vorpal when it hits you...

[Graypairofsocks]

Ah, yes. An Antimagic Field would work too - if it's not vorpal when it hits you...

There is actually one weapon that would bypass that.
In "Book of Exalted Deeds" there is a relic called the Executioner's Axe, which is a Holy Vorpal Greataxe (no enhancement bonus).
It might not count as magical, but it explicitly isn't suppressed by Antimagic Field.

[ericgrau]

This is very much true, but am I the only one who thought that this rule was odd? I mean, you can kill a zombie or a skeleton or even a mummy by bashing it in the head repeatedly with your mace. Why is removing the head entirely not just a quicker version of the same thing?

Also, it may be hard to convince the DM trying to kill the OP to not point out how similar vampires and Necropolitans are and rule that Vorpal works on any sentient undead.

The weapon still damages undead, it just doesn't slay them outright. I imagine that unlike a living creature you inflict several "mortal" wounds to an undead in the process of destroying it.

[Beriorn]

Beat it to the punch and cut your own head off first.

[Beheld]

IronGuard makes you immune to metal weapons, statistically, very few Vorpal Swords are made of Ironwood.

[ericgrau]

That Star Tortoise shield is messed up. It's price tag of 18.157 pg is exactly what a normal +3 Heavy Shield would cost. By all rights, the +1 Natural armor should be another 2000 gp, and then the Vorpal Immunity should be on top of that.
A +3 shield costs 9,157 gp.


IronGuard makes you immune to metal weapons, statistically, very few Vorpal Swords are made of Ironwood.
Lasts 1 round per level so you better persist the 7th level spell or be prepared to lose 1 round of combat defending against only some things. And then what about defending against everything else?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Astral projection means that even if your astral body is slain through physical damage, including decapitation, you just wake up in your normal body. Get it cheap via planar binding a nightmare and forcing or convincing it to do your bidding.

Also, take an adjacent weapon + a reach weapon and Karmic Strike (along with Combat Reflexes and Snap Kick, for preference). The feat only requires Combat Expertise (for some inane reason), Dodge (for an even more inane reason), and a decent Dex score as prereqs. If you have the Evasive Reflexes feat, Improved Trip, Knockdown, Knock-Back, Stunning Fist, or some other way to scupper an enemy's actions, use that on your attack of opportunity (preferably more than one, in case the first one fails), and you can stop the attack from hitting you, because AoOs explicitly take place before the action that provoked them. So you take a -4 to your AC, it attacks you, and you either evade or trip/bull rush/stun/etc it, and suddenly it can't complete the attack against you. Bullet (or possibly bulette) dodged.

[Beheld]

Lasts 1 round per level so you better persist the 7th level spell or be prepared to lose 1 round of combat defending against only some things. And then what about defending against everything else?

Vorpal weapons only trigger on a 20, absent tricks, that is 5% of all attacks. On the other hand, you "die" to Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death, Glass Strike, Basilisks, Cockatrices, Gorgons, ect. on a 1, which is a 5% chance even if your saves are literally off the RNG. If your saves are on the RNG at all, then you are more likely to die to literally anything else, so the correct protection against Vorpal is to completely ignore it.

The only reason anyone would ask for Protection against Vorpal at all is specifically if they were facing an encounter 100% based on it, such as a auto 20 Cleric with a Vorpal Sword, or a Balor who duplicates his sword so that his minions all have a Vorpal Sword and his strat is to have them make 20 attack rolls on the first round with pouncing charges.

In which case, if you know in advance that your enemies are going to use a Vorpal weapon, you can usually get around it with Ironguard, and since for that encounter, you know that they are a pushover without the Vorpal, you don't have to worry about other attacks.

[Jowgen]

A +3 shield costs 9,157 gp.

My bad, the SRD: Heavy Shield (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Heavy_Shield) page misled me by featuring the weapon enhancement cost table, rather than the armor one.

In that case, assuming the Natural armor bonus is priced at 2000 gp as per the MIC, adding the Vorpal-immunity effect to any given shield using MIC rules should costs exactly 7000 gp.

[Starbuck_II]

Vorpal weapons only trigger on a 20, absent tricks, that is 5% of all attacks. On the other hand, you "die" to Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death, Glass Strike, Basilisks, Cockatrices, Gorgons, ect. on a 1, which is a 5% chance even if your saves are literally off the RNG. If your saves are on the RNG at all, then you are more likely to die to literally anything else, so the correct protection against Vorpal is to completely ignore it.

The only reason anyone would ask for Protection against Vorpal at all is specifically if they were facing an encounter 100% based on it, such as a auto 20 Cleric with a Vorpal Sword, or a Balor who duplicates his sword so that his minions all have a Vorpal Sword and his strat is to have them make 20 attack rolls on the first round with pouncing charges.

In which case, if you know in advance that your enemies are going to use a Vorpal weapon, you can usually get around it with Ironguard, and since for that encounter, you know that they are a pushover without the Vorpal, you don't have to worry about other attacks.

In Pathfinder, Cyclops can make an attack a Nat 20, thus Vorpal, as their racial ability.

So unless you are fighting Cyclops with Vorpal weapons you should be safe, 95% of time.

[Necroticplague]

My bad, the SRD: Heavy Shield (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Heavy_Shield) page misled me by featuring the weapon enhancement cost table, rather than the armor one.

In that case, assuming the Natural armor bonus is priced at 2000 gp as per the MIC, adding the Vorpal-immunity effect to any given shield using MIC rules should costs exactly 7000 gp.

Interesting side-note: Without that assumption about NA, then the package of NA+Vorpal protection costs 9000, the same as the cost of upgrading a +2 to a +3. Which, considering the cost to upgrade it to a +4 shield for the same amount of AC is 16000, is a pretty good deal.

[Seward]

Air barrier.

If they can't get next to you they can't cut your head off.

[Immabozo]

What is that maneuver that lets you end any effect that you are subject to? God it has been too long since I thought much about D&D.

But use that as a readied action to end your condition of decapitation!

EDIT: Is it Iron Heart Surge?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What is that maneuver that lets you end any effect that you are subject to? God it has been too long since I thought much about D&D.

But use that as a readied action to end your condition of decapitation!

EDIT: Is it Iron Heart Surge?You have to be able to move and act in order to use a maneuver; being dead kind of prevents that, so this doesn't work unless you can somehow act while being dead.

Though I suppose your soul could use it. "I IHS away being dead!"

[Âmesang]

That reminds me; there's a prestige class that lets you brew potions up to 9th-level, right?

So… basically you could create Miracle Max from The Princess Bride? Just convert the potion into pill-form, I guess.

"The chocolate coating makes it go down easier."

[Necroticplague]

You have to be able to move and act in order to use a maneuver; being dead kind of prevents that, so this doesn't work unless you can somehow act while being dead.

Where's it say being dead prevents you from moving or acting?

Heck, here's the entire definition of dead

character dies when his or her hit points drop to -10 or lower. A character also dies when his or her Constitution drops to 0, and certain spells or effects (such as failing a Fortitude save against massive damage) can also kill a character outright. Death causes the character's soul to leave the body and journey to an Outer Plane. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
So you're down one soul and decomposing, but not any mobility-restricted at all.

[zergling.exe]

Where's it say being dead prevents you from moving or acting?

Heck, here's the entire definition of dead

So you're down one soul and decomposing, but not any mobility-restricted at all.

Well, you're also unconscious. Without certain feats or abilites anyway.

[Hiro Quester]

Learn a spell like alter fortune, that lets you use an immediate action to force (no save, no SR) the foe to reroll a die roll. Force the natural 20 to be rerolled.

Another option would be the luck feat Tempting Fate.


once per day, whenever you have at least 1 hit point remaining and would be dealt enough damage to kill you, you can expend one luck reroll as an immediate action to take only enough damage to reduce you to -9 hit points. You automatically stabilize.
It would only work if cutting your head off counts as "dealing damage", though.

[Necroticplague]

Well, you're also unconscious. Without certain feats or abilites anyway.

You're only unconcious when dying (from -1 to -9). When you are no longer dying (whether because you were healed back above -1, or killed from being below -9, , you aren't unconcious.

[zergling.exe]

You're only unconcious when dying (from -1 to -9). When you are no longer dying (whether because you were healed back above -1, or killed from being below -9, , you aren't unconcious.


Staggered and Unconscious:When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered. You’re so roughed up that you can only take a standard action or a move action in each round. You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless (see Helpless Defenders, page 153)

Whenever you are below 0 hp, you are automatically unconscious, as you have less hp than you have nonlethal damage.

[Immabozo]

Whenever you are below 0 hp, you are automatically unconscious, as you have less hp than you have nonlethal damage.

no, you are unconscious from -1 to -9hp, you are NOT unconscious at -10 HP


So you're down one soul and decomposing, but not any mobility-restricted at all.

There are no rules that stop you from using IHS, because being dead does not restrict movement and you are not unconscious, and you can IHS away the condition of being dead, or headless

[zergling.exe]

no, you are unconscious from -1 to -9hp, you are NOT unconscious at -10 HP



There are no rules that stop you from using IHS, because being dead does not restrict movement and you are not unconscious, and you can IHS away the condition of being dead, or headless

You ignored the rules I quoted. They will tell you that at -10 and beyond you are still unconscious.


Staggered and Unconscious:When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered. You’re so roughed up that you can only take a standard action or a move action in each round. You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless (see Helpless Defenders, page 153)

When you have less than 0 hp you automatically have more nonlethal damage than you have hp. There is no way around this without feats or abilities allowing you to continue to act normally, such as diehard or those incarnum claws.

[Jack_Simth]

Astral projection means that even if your astral body is slain through physical damage, including decapitation, you just wake up in your normal body. Get it cheap via planar binding a nightmare and forcing or convincing it to do your bidding.You can also get it cheap from the Ivory Goats wondrous figurine. The goat of trevail has the statistics of a nightmare with an addition or two.

[elonin]

Whenever you are below 0 hp, you are automatically unconscious, as you have less hp than you have nonlethal damage.

That is normally, but not always true.

[ericgrau]

The only reason anyone would ask for Protection against Vorpal at all is specifically if they were facing an encounter 100% based on it, such as a auto 20 Cleric with a Vorpal Sword, or a Balor who duplicates his sword so that his minions all have a Vorpal Sword and his strat is to have them make 20 attack rolls on the first round with pouncing charges.

In which case, if you know in advance that your enemies are going to use a Vorpal weapon, you can usually get around it with Ironguard, and since for that encounter, you know that they are a pushover without the Vorpal, you don't have to worry about other attacks.
Only if you go first and are solo, or have a way to get ironguard to your entire party round 1... and your entire party goes first. So you don't attempt protection even then. You would have to be ambushing that enemy and have silent ironguard or a well placed silence spell between you and them yet more than 20 feet away from you, or a way to cast it on the whole party simultaneously or go in solo. So basically never.

[Hiro Quester]

That is normally, but not always true.

For instance, theKnight's Loyal Beyond Death ability:


Loyal Beyond Death (Ex): At 20th level, if you are reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by an effect that otherwise leaves your body intact, you can expend one use of your knight's challenge ability to remain conscious and continue to act for 1 more round before dying. You can use this ability even if your hit point total is -10 or lower.

Of course, this requires your body to be intact, and not headless.

[Immabozo]

When you have less than 0 hp you automatically have more nonlethal damage than you have hp. There is no way around this without feats or abilities allowing you to continue to act normally, such as diehard or those incarnum claws.

No. the rules specify that you are unconscious (with exceptions) from -1 to -9. at -10, you are not unconscious, you're dead. This is well covered in the rules. If you are unconscious, you are alive, but unconscious, if you are dead, you are not unconscious, you are dead. The rules back this up by specifying you are unconscious from -1 to -9 HP. The rules also specify what dead means in game terms. None of it limits your ability to move, nor your ability to us IHS and end the status effect of dead.

[Jack_Simth]

No. the rules specify that you are unconscious (with exceptions) from -1 to -9. at -10, you are not unconscious, you're dead. This is well covered in the rules. If you are unconscious, you are alive, but unconscious, if you are dead, you are not unconscious, you are dead. The rules back this up by specifying you are unconscious from -1 to -9 HP. The rules also specify what dead means in game terms. None of it limits your ability to move, nor your ability to us IHS and end the status effect of dead.
Umm... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage)
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.
If you have 100 points of nonlethal damage, and 90 current hp, your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal.
If you have 0 points of nonlethal damage, and -5 current hp, your nonlethal damage (0) exceeds your current hit points (-5), and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal.
If you have 0 points of nonlethal damage, and -30927 current hp, your nonlethal damage (0) exceeds your current hit points (-30927), and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal. This is in addition to the "dead" state which you probably have (unless you're a Frenzied Berserker, under Delay Death, Loyal Beyond Death, or under a few other effects, which is why "probably" on the "dead" state).

So while you're unconscious at -1 to -9 hp, you're ALSO unconscious at -10 HP, it's just from a different section of the rules.

[Graypairofsocks]

No. the rules specify that you are unconscious (with exceptions) from -1 to -9. at -10, you are not unconscious, you're dead. This is well covered in the rules. If you are unconscious, you are alive, but unconscious, if you are dead, you are not unconscious, you are dead. The rules back this up by specifying you are unconscious from -1 to -9 HP. The rules also specify what dead means in game terms. None of it limits your ability to move, nor your ability to us IHS and end the status effect of dead.

Behold! One of the many reasons why you should never use strict RAW.

[Irk]

Lasts 1 round per level so you better persist the 7th level spell or be prepared to lose 1 round of combat defending against only some things. And then what about defending against everything else?

To be fair, Ironguard is not a bad spell to have on a list of persist buffs. If you had 3 levels of priority for buffs to persist, it would be first on my second level.

[Beheld]

If you have 0 points of nonlethal damage, and -5 current hp, your nonlethal damage (0) exceeds your current hit points (-5), and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal.

Even if you are immune to nonlethal damage, you still have zero nonlethal damage and -X HP, so you are still unconscious, unless you have immunity to being unconscious.


Only if you go first and are solo, or have a way to get ironguard to your entire party round 1... and your entire party goes first. So you don't attempt protection even then. You would have to be ambushing that enemy and have silent ironguard or a well placed silence spell between you and them yet more than 20 feet away from you, or a way to cast it on the whole party simultaneously or go in solo. So basically never.

You have seventh level spells. Appearing directly adjacent to your enemy from half way across the world is a level 5 spell. If you want a buffing routine, you can have one.

Alternatively, you might be trying to give yourself immunity to his vorpal attack strat because you are the person he is going to target, or because the rest of your party is already immune.

So basically, I take no responsibility for your inability to conceive of casting a buff spell when it is useful.

[Jack_Simth]

Even if you are immune to nonlethal damage, you still have zero nonlethal damage and -X HP, so you are still unconscious, unless you have immunity to being unconscious.Just a wording issue. If I'd used "Says otherwise", someone might simply re-post the injury & death rules again.

[Immabozo]

Umm... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage)
If you have 100 points of nonlethal damage, and 90 current hp, your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal.
If you have 0 points of nonlethal damage, and -5 current hp, your nonlethal damage (0) exceeds your current hit points (-5), and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal.
If you have 0 points of nonlethal damage, and -30927 current hp, your nonlethal damage (0) exceeds your current hit points (-30927), and you're unconscious unless you have something that lets you ignore nonlethal. This is in addition to the "dead" state which you probably have (unless you're a Frenzied Berserker, under Delay Death, Loyal Beyond Death, or under a few other effects, which is why "probably" on the "dead" state).

So while you're unconscious at -1 to -9 hp, you're ALSO unconscious at -10 HP, it's just from a different section of the rules.

The rules are that you are dead at -10 or less hp. Please explain to me how a dead person is unconscious. Also, there are specific rules about what happens at negative HP, trumps the more general "when non-lethal damage exceeds current hp"
drops mic

Behold! One of the many reasons why you should never use strict RAW.

Absolutely correct, but it's still fun

[ericgrau]

You have seventh level spells. Appearing directly adjacent to your enemy from half way across the world is a level 5 spell. If you want a buffing routine, you can have one.

Alternatively, you might be trying to give yourself immunity to his vorpal attack strat because you are the person he is going to target, or because the rest of your party is already immune.

So basically, I take no responsibility for your inability to conceive of casting a buff spell when it is useful.
Because you're always the one ambushing with perfect unpredictability and never the one getting ambushed? Nope. Unfortunately there are also ways to avoid getting surprised, including counters to the spell methods. For that matter the spell methods, particularly the 5th level spell, are far from reliable even if not countered.

Even if you have a successful setup, there is lots of better prep you could be doing instead with your limited high level spell slots.

[Beheld]

The rules are that you are dead at -10 or less hp. Please explain to me how a dead person is unconscious. Also, there are specific rules about what happens at negative HP, trumps the more general "when non-lethal damage exceeds current hp"

The rules saying you are dead at -10 HP don't contradict the rules saying you are unconscious, so there is no specific vs general conflict at all.

People who are dead are also unconscious, because both dead and unconscious are status effects, and there is nothing in the rules that prevents apply multiple status effects. Just like how if you are nauseated, and someone stuns you, you are nauseated and stunned. Or how if you take enough Int damage you are unconscious and helpless. Or how if you are dead, and your HP is less than your non-lethal damage, you are dead and unconscious.

Do you have any rules citation that says being dead prevents your from being unconscious? Of course not, because none exists. You are trying to impose something not in the rules of the dead condition on the dead condition because of how death works in real life, but if you do that, you have to apply the whole thing or nothing, and if you apply the whole thing, they can't act because they are dead, and if you apply nothing they can't act because they are unconscious.


Because you're always the one ambushing with perfect unpredictability and never the one getting ambushed? Nope. Unfortunately there are also ways to avoid getting surprised, including counters to the spell methods. For that matter the spell methods, particularly the 5th level spell, are far from reliable even if not countered.

If you are being ambushed by someone with some sort of cute Vorpal strategy like auto rolling 20s, then no protections are relevant at all, because you didn't know you were going to get ambushed by someone with a cute vorpal strategy.

[Hecuba]

Please explain to me how a dead person is unconscious.

Unless we're discussing undead people rather than just dead people, I'd be significantly more concerned if a dead person wasn't unconscious. Not being conscious is generally one of the side-effects of not being alive (or at least a reasonable simulacrum of alive).

[Starbuck_II]

Unless we're discussing undead people rather than just dead people, I'd be significantly more concerned if a dead person wasn't unconscious. Not being conscious is generally one of the side-effects of not being alive (or at least a reasonable simulacrum of alive).

What about Cthulhu isn't he supposed to be dead and unconscious till the stars are right then he is a live and conscious?

[Immabozo]

The rules saying you are dead at -10 HP don't contradict the rules saying you are unconscious, so there is no specific vs general conflict at all.

People who are dead are also unconscious, because both dead and unconscious are status effects, and there is nothing in the rules that prevents apply multiple status effects. Just like how if you are nauseated, and someone stuns you, you are nauseated and stunned. Or how if you take enough Int damage you are unconscious and helpless. Or how if you are dead, and your HP is less than your non-lethal damage, you are dead and unconscious.

Do you have any rules citation that says being dead prevents your from being unconscious? Of course not, because none exists. You are trying to impose something not in the rules of the dead condition on the dead condition because of how death works in real life, but if you do that, you have to apply the whole thing or nothing, and if you apply the whole thing, they can't act because they are dead, and if you apply nothing they can't act because they are unconscious.

First, I want to say, I love you so much, haha.

Second, It specifies what happens at -1 to -9 hp (unconscious) and what happens at -10 hp (death). That is very specific about what happens, including a specification of that you are unconscious from -1 to -9 hp. Let me rephrase that unconscious from -1 to -9 HP


Unless we're discussing undead people rather than just dead people, I'd be significantly more concerned if a dead person wasn't unconscious. Not being conscious is generally one of the side-effects of not being alive (or at least a reasonable simulacrum of alive).

Not that I have any rules to back this up, its nore of a language thing, but I would like to differentiate between unconscious (having the ability to be conscious, just, not) and no consciousness at all, that is to say, not alive.

You wouldn't say that a rock is unconcious, would you?

[Beheld]

First, I want to say, I love you so much, haha.

Second, It specifies what happens at -1 to -9 hp (unconscious) and what happens at -10 hp (death). That is very specific about what happens, including a specification of that you are unconscious from -1 to -9 hp. Let me rephrase that unconscious from -1 to -9 HP

Except that the rules specifically say, as people have quoted over and over and over in this thread:


When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

So no matter how many times you quote a different rule, if you have zero nonlethal damage and -11HP, you are unconscious.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just to throw salt on the wound and napalm on the fire, the Subconscious Power and Preconscious Power metapsionic feats, from Hyperconscious, allow you to manifest while unconscious.

[Hecuba]

Not that I have any rules to back this up, its nore of a language thing, but I would like to differentiate between unconscious (having the ability to be conscious, just, not) and no consciousness at all, that is to say, not alive.

You wouldn't say that a rock is unconcious, would you?

I wouldn't ordinarily discuss the consciousness of a rock either way: it isn't a conversation that often comes up. But if I was asked to decide whether a rock a rock was currently unconscious or conscious, I expect the answer would be the former.

From your comment, you seem to be searching for a more nuanced meaning of unconscious. There are contexts where that is valid: the term certainly has very specific connotations in specific areas of psychology, philosophy, and metaphysics.

The most basic meaning of the word, however, is simply "not conscious".

P.S. - Were I rendering first aid to a rock, I would likely also judge it took be nonambulatory. That would also be a silly judgement- rocks aren't supposed to be ambulatory. Like the rock being unconscious, however, it would also be accurate.


Let me rephrase that unconscious from -1 to -9 HP That is certainly one rule that causes the unconscious state.
There are others- mental ability damage, subdual damage, etc.

The fact that some of them overlap (and indeed - in the case of -1 to-9 HP and the subdual damage rule - overlap for the entire case of the former) does not mean they contradict each other. Not is there any rule that sets death as an overriding condition.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Stone tell?

[Hiro Quester]

Either way (unconscious, nonconscious), you are still not conscious at -10 hp, in the same way a rock is not conscious.

[Necroticplague]

First, I want to say, I love you so much, haha.

Second, It specifies what happens at -1 to -9 hp (unconscious) and what happens at -10 hp (death). That is very specific about what happens, including a specification of that you are unconscious from -1 to -9 hp. Let me rephrase that unconscious from -1 to -9 HP

HP in-between -1 to -9 is one way you can be unconcious. You can also be unconcious because you're sleeping, because any of your mental stats are 0, nonlethal damage greater than your HP, or likely because of other reasons I can't think of right now.

[Hecuba]

likely because of other reasons I can't think of right now.

I believe there are also some poisons.

[Erik the Green]

The Pact of Return spell from Heroes of Horror allows you to be automatically resurrected of you die in the manner you predict

That's only good for hours/caster level...and there might be a contradiction between the Vorpal "your head is cut off and you probably die" and the spell's "you must die, that is reach -10 HP or less." If I was high enough level that I was really worried about Klurichur demons and guys with 200,000 GP swords, I'd just go with Contingent Wish "IF my head is ever cut off, I wish that it unhappens and I remain whole and alive." Theoretically, a thinaun weapon could then be a fly in the ointment, but your DM would have to be a real kneebiter to bring that up after you burned 5000 XP and 15300 gold just to avoid a resurrection (mostly for style, but also for tactical and operational viability).

[Immabozo]

Except that the rules specifically say, as people have quoted over and over and over in this thread:

So no matter how many times you quote a different rule, if you have zero nonlethal damage and -11HP, you are unconscious.

"Whenever x condition is met, y happens" is a general rule. "When at negative hit points, X happens at each step along the way, specifying that you are unconscious 9/10 steps" is a specific rule. Specific trump general.


Either way (unconscious, nonconscious), you are still not conscious at -10 hp, in the same way a rock is not conscious.

There are no games rules backing up this statement. The game definition of death does not prevent consciousness, movement, or taking actions.

[Beheld]

"Whenever x condition is met, y happens" is a general rule. "When at negative hit points, X happens at each step along the way, specifying that you are unconscious 9/10 steps" is a specific rule. Specific trump general.

Specific and general only apples if the rules contradict. The rule saying you are unconscious at -9HP and the rule saying you are unconscious at various Hps from -infinity to your entire current maximum do not contradict.

If there was a rule that said "when you are at -10 HP or below, you are immune to all methods of being unconscious, you are immune to sleep spells, you are immune to the effects of nonlethal damage, ect." that would contradict, and then you would have a specific versus general rule, but you don't, because no such rule exists.

Again, nothing about the rules say you are immune to other sources of unconscious when you are at -10 HP, so other sources of unconscious continue to make you unconscious.


There are no games rules backing up this statement. The game definition of death does not prevent consciousness, movement, or taking actions.


When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

So no matter how many times you quote a different rule, if you have zero nonlethal damage and -11HP, you are unconscious.

[Necroticplague]

"Whenever x condition is met, y happens" is a general rule. "When at negative hit points, X happens at each step along the way, specifying that you are unconscious 9/10 steps" is a specific rule. Specific trump general.

Specific trumps general is only relevant when they contradict. In this case, the rules do not contradict. You are unconscious if you're dying. You're also unconcious if nonlethal>HP. These are entirely unrelated rules.

[Immabozo]

in an effort to continue discussion, but end the derailment of the OP's thread, I have move the discussion of actions after dead to it's own thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480655-Taking-actions-after-character-death&p=20506254#post20506254).