[3.5] How would you do Theurge PrCs?

[Mr Adventurer]

So, ignoring early entry and fast-casting progression classes, your basic Theurge build isn't a good idea because you lose out on your main schtick, and don't gain a new one at the equivalent power as if you hadn't bothered.

So I wondered, would a better Mystic Theurge (say) look something like this?

Prerequisites: able to cast 3rd level arcane spells or 3rd level divine spells; Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks; Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks

HD d4

Skill points per level: 2 + Int

BAB: poor
Saves: good Will, good Fort

Class features:
Spellcasting: At every class level, gain a spellcasting level in an arcane or divine spellcasting class you already possess.

Theurgy: at every level, you gain an additional spell slot equal to your level in this class. At 10th level you gain a slot of a level of your choice that you can cast. Record these slots separately, as a cleric does with their Domain slots. Theurgy spells are arcane spells if your original class is divine. They are divine slots if your original class is arcane. If the slots are divine, you must choose either Druid or Cleric; spellcasting and preparation for your Theurgy slots follows the rules for that class and uses that class spell list. If tge slots are arcane, you must choose either Sorcerer or Wizard; spellcasting and preparation for your Theurgy slots follows the rules for that class and uses that class spell list. If you choose Wizard, you must purchase and populate your spellbook; you use the same rules as the Wizard class to do so. If you choose Sorcerer, you learn two spells of each level for which you have Theurgy slots.

How would you change theurge classes?

[questionmark693]

Not saying you shouldn't post here, but you might get more input if you head over to the homebrew section.

[AnachroNinja]

I don't really like that idea because it's such a minimal gain in versatility but a pretty large gain in power. It's pretty easy to find a couple spells from either list that coupled with normal casting if either type, will be stronger then standard cleric/wizard casting. It's not enough spells to be a viable alternative to having that class present though.

If I'm a wizard using this class, I can't come close to being the party healer and status remover. I can however pick up divine metamagic and a couple cleric spells and be the party fighter.

Long story short, I feel this is unbalancing a bit in the power sense, while providing very little if the versatility I normally okay theurges for.

[Troacctid]

See also the link in my signature.

[Mr Adventurer]

Not saying you shouldn't post here, but you might get more input if you head over to the homebrew section.

I did wonder about that - but the thread is more about what other people think they might do to 'fix' Theurge type classes, with an idea from me to kick things off, than me looking for input into my idea as such.


I don't really like that idea because it's such a minimal gain in versatility but a pretty large gain in power. It's pretty easy to find a couple spells from either list that coupled with normal casting if either type, will be stronger then standard cleric/wizard casting. It's not enough spells to be a viable alternative to having that class present though.

If I'm a wizard using this class, I can't come close to being the party healer and status remover. I can however pick up divine metamagic and a couple cleric spells and be the party fighter.

Long story short, I feel this is unbalancing a bit in the power sense, while providing very little if the versatility I normally okay theurges for.

That's kind of the point - theurges typically have more "versatility" but it doesn't actually help them that much because they're too far behind on the power curve of a non-Theurge equivalent.

Neither a normal Theurge, nor the variant I posted, are a viable alternative to having that class present.

If you're a wizard using the variant I posted, you can't be the party healer or status remover - but then a normal theurge would be second fiddle to a dedicated Cleric, too.

You can't pick up divine metamagic because the class doesn't grant Turn Undead. And, just to say, a Wizard can fill the role of the party fighter anyway :).

[Mr Adventurer]

See also the link in my signature.

That is pretty cool! It uses some similar type of language that I came up with. It's a lot more universal and in-depth than what I came up with though. Have you seen it in play?

[Malimar]

I wouldn't change them at all. I think Mystic Theurge and its brethren are at just about a perfect power level as they are. If a PrC is an obvious, objective upgrade from the base class(es) involved, it's poor design, and improving Mystic Theurge any would make it such an upgrade. I would, were I inclined to fix anything, instead nerf all the competing PrCs that are obvious upgrades from their base class(es).

The only thing I would be inclined to change about Mystic Theurge in particular is somehow letting spontaneous casters enter at the same level (or even earlier) than prepared casters.

(Being an obvious, objective downgrade from the base class(es) is also somewhat poor design, but it's not clear to me that Mystic Theurge and its brethren are such a strict downgrade. People make a lot of theory noise about losing high-level spells and how gaining extra low-level spells doesn't make up for it, but in every actual game I've played, doubled spells per day at the cost of your highest level spell slot would actually be a decent tradeoff.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

The way I did it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323479-Arcane-Theurge-%28Fixed-List-Caster-Project%29-3-5-PEACH) was to slowly merge the two classes' spell lists, spacing out the lost caster levels over the course of the class. That way you don't start off in as big a hole, and you don't have to worry about keeping track of two entirely different resource pools.

[OldTrees1]

Proper Theruge class design depends on a lot of details.

1) The features/spellcasting ratio of the base classes
Since a thergue class would advance spellcasting but not other class features, proper design would differ between thergue classes for Wizards(no features beyond spellcasting) vs Dread Necromancers(weaker spellcasting in exchange for other features). In general the theruge class should have features proportional (porportional does not mean equal) to the intended base classes.

2) The role of the theruge class
All modifications should have reasonable benefit/tradeoff ratios relative to the baseline. The benefit you wish the theruge to provide helps shape what tradeoffs are available to select from (and even which tradeoffs are the correct choices).


You didn't like Theruge classes since "you lose out on your main schtick". Well you do need to lose out on something if you are to gain something. The opportunity cost of branching out is the slowed progress in the old area. Once you pick how your main schtick will be slowed, then you know your budget to allot to your side schtick.

Since I like casters with lots of feature at the cost of weaker casting, the thergue classes I would design would also need features. Then since I would want theruges mostly for the spell list expansion, I could not increase spells per day. I am still a bit overbudget so I can either lose caster levels(usually in the prerequisites) or have the thergue class have less feature density than the base classes. I would usually prefer to keep the caster levels so I would end up with less feature density but with less caster level loss. But that is my preferences, someone else working through the same process might arrive at the Mystic Theruge instead.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I ran a high-level game with a mystic theurge, and I can honestly say that at high level play, they contribute to the party just fine. Even if they aren't throwing around 8th or 9th level spells, you can get some horrible things done with 6-7th level spells.

The main thing they're amazing at is 'adventuring endurance.' I never came close to exhausting the MT's magical capacity. They ultimately wound up similar to a cleric, providing vital healing and status removal, becoming the 'backbone' of the party.

Now, the real trouble with theurge classes is getting to high levels. Before level 14 or so, it has to be an unpleasant slog.

[Troacctid]

That is pretty cool! It uses some similar type of language that I came up with. It's a lot more universal and in-depth than what I came up with though. Have you seen it in play?

I did run some builds through gauntlets and benchmark tests. The results led me to change it from a 3/3 entry to 3/2 with a primary and secondary class—3/3 was fine for martial characters, but it needed a little push to make it viable for casters. I'm happy enough with where it landed.

[nedz]

I prefer the asymmetrical theurges where you lose 1-2 levels in your main class and few more in your secondary (the ones in CMage do this).

The symmetric ones leave you in the lurch at low-mid levels especially if you go spontaneous.

Also, why do they stop at 10th ?

[Kraken]

This is a though question to answer, which I think might actually change depending on the level range you're playing. Theurges take a very long time to hit their stride, an 'as intended' wizard3/cleric3 entry is torture to play through until level 10 or so, unless the rest of the part is very low op, in which case it might not be as big of a deal. I think cleric3/wizard 1 or wizard3/cleric1 is closer to the right approach here, essentially putting your primary class a level behind, in exchange for that extra versatility. At higher levels though, then you've just made the powerful even more so. But then again, if you've got T1 casters you must already have some sort of gentleman's agreement in place, even just implicitly, so maybe that doesn't matter.