leveling order and breakpoints for oathbreaker/dragon sorc

[Spiritchaser]

Hello... My oathbreaker seems to be developing a rather different personality than I thought he would... And the party's playstyle is a bit different too.

I am trying to figure out the best levelling order and final level split

There are a few ongoing issues. With a stealthy dps focussed (but still very durable) eldritch knight and a (very squishy) budding assasin in the party, I'm the healer, the tank and the utility caster. I've known this from the start.

But the party plays a certain way. We are all stealthy, and we seem to focus on slinking in, then killing everything as beautifully as possible (we are all evil) and then getting out before anyone figured out what's going on... Or clearing everything before anyone knows what cut them.

This means virtually no rests (short or long) Its relentless and fun and I want to support it as much as possible.

I had planned on oathbreaker to 7, then sorcerer, at least for a bit... But now I'm not sure.

Getting magical utility for concealment from sorcerer spells early would be good, as would the shield spell, but the way this is going, getting aura of vitality as soon as possible would be huge (were using spell points, so even level 9 would be enough, and lengthening that spell would be amazing.)

Id most recently planned on Paladin 12/ sorcerer 8, but I'm having second thoughts about this too.

If I go 9 Paladin, I lose some damage and an asi but gain twin spell for extra stealthy party members and probably subtle spell for seriousness... Also some higher level sorcerer spells.

Also: the DM has agreed that a special short sword can be made to function as an arcane focus, but no weapon larger than that...

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[PeteNutButter]

Since you are the healing, tank, and utility caster, seems like you are spread a little too thin. Fortunately there is a class for that: BARD.

Depending on your stats and level, bard could solve most of your problems. Paladin 2/Lore bard 6 gets that juicy aura a lvl earlier, and a whole lot more spell slots(points) to back it up. That's a lot more spells, or a lot more SMITES. And did you mention utility? There are plenty of spells that can serve you well in this. If you have the stats for it (14 dex) you can even dump the heavy armor and pick up a breastplate. With expertise in stealth you can be as sneaky as the rest of the team, and also have invisibility if you really need it.

After that you can go back to paladin, and get all that good stuff up to lvl 7 or 8, at least 6.

[Giant2005]

What are your stats like? Do you have enough Wis, Str and Cha to take a single level of Trickster Cleric for your stealth needs? It is a small enough investment that it won't delay your Paladin stuff for too long and once you have your fill of Paladin, 2 more levels of Cleric would get you the vastly OP Pass without Trace. You could guarantee that failing a stealth roll will no longer be possible.

To be honest, I'm not even sure what Sorcerer brings to the table for what you want to accomplish. If you can't dip Cleric then as PeteNutButter said, Bard is vastly superior. Expertise in Stealth will be far more useful to you than anything Sorcerer brings to the table.

[Spiritchaser]

The big benefit of sorcerer is extended spell and aura of Vitality. At 140 average points of healing per third level cast, I don't think there's a more efficient heal out there, short of dipping 1 level in life cleric, and that's probably not on from a RP or stat point of view, though I suppose kelemvor would be possible, and I could ASI WIS.

With spell points this means that this combination can realistically provide the healing were going to need with nearly no rest

If I take sorcerer past 10 then twinning invisibility is another big deal.

Getting hypnotic pattern, holds, fly, and misty step are important.

Getting counterspell is also a big deal, as is, let's face it, fireball. I'm going to be the only one good at that.

Finally, we rely on killing things quickly. Quicken spell is a way to jam two rounds into one when you need to (though obviously not too often)

Bard is actually less of a RP stretch than you might think, but I remain to be convinced that it can provide what sorcerer can...

That having been said... A trickery cleric probably isn't ideal, but a trickery favoured soul might be... I'm not sure about the fit, since I'm LE... Maybe Shar... Darkness and loss is pretty good. I'd also end up a bit squishier. I'll have to think about that... And maybe talk to the DM about it.

[PeteNutButter]

The big benefit of sorcerer is extended spell and aura of Vitality. At 140 average points of healing per third level cast, I don't think there's a more efficient heal out there, short of dipping 1 level in life cleric, and that's probably not on from a RP or stat point of view, though I suppose kelemvor would be possible, and I could ASI WIS.

With spell points this means that this combination can realistically provide the healing were going to need with nearly no rest

If I take sorcerer past 10 then twinning invisibility is another big deal.

Getting hypnotic pattern, holds, fly, and misty step are important.

Getting counterspell is also a big deal, as is, let's face it, fireball. I'm going to be the only one good at that.

Finally, we rely on killing things quickly. Quicken spell is a way to jam two rounds into one when you need to (though obviously not too often)

Bard is actually less of a RP stretch than you might think, but I remain to be convinced that it can provide what sorcerer can...

That having been said... A trickery cleric probably isn't ideal, but a trickery favoured soul might be... I'm not sure about the fit, since I'm LE... Maybe Shar... Darkness and loss is pretty good. I'd also end up a bit squishier. I'll have to think about that... And maybe talk to the DM about it.

I play a paladorc in AL and it is fantastic. It is tanky does decent at-will damage and can nova like a mutha****er. What it couldn't do is be the primary healer. The only healing I ever pull off is maybe a quickened cure wounds, but honestly its not usually worth it, as I can go for kills. Besides the bard has healing word which is about on par, as it has no sorcery point cost.

The paladorc has the option to go nova at the cost of using most of your sorcery points and several spells in one round, via twinning, smiting, quickening smiting, etc. This option is largely lost on a character that would be very hesitant to do it since they are the group's healer and therefore need to reserve spells.

You talk about quicken, extend, and twin. Like you said you only get two for a very long time. Extend is easily the weakest one, so you're back to the same aura of vitality the bard would have. Twinning invisibility will likely be a waste of time at lvl 19, as most enemies should rather easily combat invisibility, so maybe take twin first? Although quicken, THE BEST ONE, has poor synergy with aura of vitality unless you only use the aura for out of combat healing. If that's the case, just life cleric and goodberry are better if your DM will let you and you have a 13 wis. Goodberry at lvl 1 with life cleric is 20 healing per spell point, aura of vitality averages at 70 meaning 14 hps healed per spell point. If you guys are really taking that much damage in combat and still living till after, that's impressive. :smallbiggrin:

Now of the spells you mentioned that appeal to you from sorcerer: hypnotic pattern and holds are on the bard spell list, as well as healing word, faerie fire, and a number of great spells to help stealthy parties. You could add fireball as your other magical secret, if you'd like.

Granted the sorcerer spell list may be better, but by how much? You're comparing apples to oranges in your current build as these things the bard will be doing will be at character lvl 8, while with the paladin 9/sorc 5, lvl 14 would be required to cast 3rd lvl sorcerer spells and still have the aura of vitality.

Best option imo, if you can get away with it, would be to take the bard 6, then 1 lvl of life cleric. You want total healing per spell point or you want effective combat healing? Aura of vitality jumps up to an average of 12 hps healed a round, and 120 over the course of the spell.

[Spiritchaser]

Again, cleric is really tough, both from stats and RP.

As such, the best buff I have for aura of vitality is extend spell.

140 points over the course of 20 rounds is fine. 120 over 10 is obviously better in combat, but that's not typically how this will be used... And extend spell has no wisdom required.

Therefore, sorcerer is strongly preferred...

I see a lot of comments on bard, and I understand that Its a strong synergy, and that it can provide more arcane utility, but we do have a skillmonkey... And the bard cuts off half the healing for that utility

The more I think about it, the more OP pass without trace seems for us

Trickery cleric would require wisdom an cost healing
Bard would cost healing
Delaying Paladin levels costs durability and damage

Trickery domain FS sorc overlaps proficiencies, but still might be worth it.

Best healing but late, decent durability. Decent utility

[Spiritchaser]

I talked with my Dm about favoured soul (trickery), I've mentioned Shar and how that might fit. He felt he was going to have to consider things very carefully, but he didn't say no. (typically this means yes, possibly with caveats. )

What would my preferred leveling order be?

2 oathbreaker 3 sorcerer?
7 oathbreaker 3 sorcerer?



Any suggestions or considerations appreciated!

Edit: changed sorc levels

[PeteNutButter]

I talked with my Dm about favoured soul (trickery), I've mentioned Shar and how that might fit. He felt he was going to have to consider things very carefully, but he didn't say no. (typically this means yes, possibly with caveats. )
What would my preferred leveling order be?
2 oathbreaker 3 sorcerer?
7 oathbreaker 3 sorcerer?
Any suggestions or considerations appreciated!
Edit: changed sorc levels

The early sorcerer dip, is a bit more fun, since otherwise you feel just like a paladin for a LONG time, but the heavy paladin route is likely stronger.

I went 2 paladin/sorcerer x and ran into the problem of opportunity cost. Level 6 paladin is great, but once I had 2/3 spread fourth lvl sorcerer gives 3rd lvl slots for smiting AND an ASI, which is just better than lvl 3 paladin. Then its a 2/4 where I had to go sorc again to have those 3rd lvl spells. Then it was a 2/5 where if I took another lvl in sorc, I could add my cha to GFB damage, and have 4th lvl spell slots for smiting... each time getting more previous sorcery points too. He's lvl 9 now and can I really make the case that lvl 3 paladin is better than 5th lvl spell slots?

Ultimately the paladin 7/sorcerer x may be better, but leveling through the character, at no point is it going to feel good to leave sorcerer and take those paladin levels.

[Spiritchaser]

Ultimately the paladin 7/sorcerer x may be better, but leveling through the character, at no point is it going to feel good to leave sorcerer and take those paladin levels.

Thanks for this, it's exactly what I feel like I'm up against here. I guess it also comes down to what's going to feel best in the context of the party in question. Were you functioning as the tank?

[PeteNutButter]

Thanks for this, it's exactly what I feel like I'm up against here. I guess it also comes down to what's going to feel best in the context of the party in question. Were you functioning as the tank?

Yes. I discuss my build in length here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478456-Quicken-Smite-Build-(Where-to-from-here-)&highlight=quicken+smite

Very very strong, and I don't regret not having the paladin levels. Admittedly I'll occasionally get hit with a save or suck spell and be out for a few rounds, but that just lets the other players do stuff. When your character is so strong you intentionally leave weaknesses so you don't always ruin the fun of other players... it's strong.

[Spiritchaser]

Yes. I discuss my build in length here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478456-Quicken-Smite-Build-(Where-to-from-here-)&highlight=quicken+smite

Very very strong, and I don't regret not having the paladin levels. Admittedly I'll occasionally get hit with a save or suck spell and be out for a few rounds, but that just lets the other players do stuff. When your character is so strong you intentionally leave weaknesses so you don't always ruin the fun of other players... it's strong.

I'd looked in on that thread. I'm currently thinking that trickery might do better for the team than Dragon for me, just because + 10 stealth would really help cement our MO.

-Stealth Everything-

Complete surprise rounds are worth a lot, and the ambushes you don't get hit by are probably worth as much again...

[PeteNutButter]

I'd looked in on that thread. I'm currently thinking that trickery might do better for the team than Dragon for me, just because + 10 stealth would really help cement our MO.
-Stealth Everything-
Complete surprise rounds are worth a lot, and the ambushes you don't get hit by are probably worth as much again...

If you are talking about favored soul, then go for it. It is hands down better than draconic. I would do it as well but can't because my character is AL, and it is not legal there. (probably because it is hands down a better subclass :P)

[Spiritchaser]

If you are talking about favored soul, then go for it. It is hands down better than draconic. I would do it as well but can't because my character is AL, and it is not legal there. (probably because it is hands down a better subclass :P)

The DM may let me trade the oathbreaker domain spells for trickery.

This gets me pass without trace (at a very early level) as well as a few other options that mesh pretty well with our party MO.

It costs raise dead, which is a Very high price to pay, but I'm not exactly going to have stealth zombies anyway... And giving our assasin an additional +10 stealth will be very cool.

I'm not sure what will happen after going sorcerer...

Any thoughts on viability of a dex oathbreaker with trickery?

[Drackolus]

"I'm not an oathbreaker anymore. I've taken a new oath. One of darkness and hate. I am Shar's champion now. I am an Anti-Paladin"

I think adding the trickery domain's spells and replacing it's channel divinity with the undead-controlling one is a good start. Consider replacing all paladin radiant damage with necrotic. Strongly consider. Doesn't impact balance much, but is 10x cooler.

[Spiritchaser]

"I'm not an oathbreaker anymore. I've taken a new oath. One of darkness and hate. I am Shar's champion now. I am an Anti-Paladin"

I think adding the trickery domain's spells and replacing it's channel divinity with the undead-controlling one is a good start. Consider replacing all paladin radiant damage with necrotic. Strongly consider. Doesn't impact balance much, but is 10x cooler.

This is kind of where I think it's going... And the more I think about it the better it sounds.

As for losing the control undead... Maybe... But that's one seriously cool power to lose. I'd want to replace it with something very significant, and that might be a really hard sell, especially with balance concerns already on the line...

That said, I can always ask... He can always say no.

[Drackolus]

This is kind of where I think it's going... And the more I think about it the better it sounds.

As for losing the control undead... Maybe... But that's one seriously cool power to lose. I'd want to replace it with something very significant, and that might be a really hard sell, especially with balance concerns already on the line...

That said, I can always ask... He can always say no.

Thinking about homebrewing a darkness paladin. But, I've been thinking about making an Antipaladin for a while. Just use the stats for oathbreaker and change all radiant damage from spells and abilities (divine smite, divine favor, crusader's mantle, etc.) to necrotic. That's something easy to ask for, since necrotic is no better than radiant.

[Corran]

It is painfully simple to optimize an oathbreaker. Seriously, the paladin chassis combined with the oathbreker's features, lead to one, and one only, route, as optimization goes. Polearm master and sentinel asap. And onwards to level 11 without delays. Everything else, as far as I have searched, is less optimal, from character optimization perspective.

Combat strategy: Use dreadful aspect and wwrathful smite in your first round of combat, and then start chopping people from 10 feet, moving as required to control the battlefield. Bonus action and reaction are used on a round-to-round basis to deliver some very good damage. Sentinel gives another trigger for your reactionary attack, and it also helps you keep your enemies inside the dreadful aspect aura so that they are not even allowed saves after the first one. Wrathful smite simply adds whatever enemy saves against your fear aura to the list of frightened enemies. Aura of hate and IDS work at 110% with polearm and reactionary attacks guaranteed by either pm or sentinel. Everything really complements everything else, and all class and oath features and feats synergize perfectly.

As I said, painfully simple to optimize, and painfully effective.

After 11 level, I am not 100% sure as what is the best way to go, but my money would be on sticking with the class. The 15 oath feature is simply amazing, and dont even let me start talking about the 20 feature. But as I said, I have not look into that far in levels in that disgusting detail, though I would be surprised if a multiclass of some sort was more effective. Oathbreaker seems to be one of those subclasses that you simply dont multiclass.

As for combat and your group, a pure oathbreaker build, optimal as it is if built as I mentioned, will be able to carry your squishy teammates. If you want stealth, maybe you should rely on your teammates, and perhaps you shouldnt go out of your way.

ps: I know many people have a different opinion on this one, but paladorcs make good tanks and are also good for people who enjoy spamming smite (though far from optimal imo). They are not as a good multiclass as people give it credit for, though it can be a lifesaver for those who try to play tanky characters in badly optimized groups and need to withstand really heavy pressure cause the rest of their group for example consists of ranged and squishies who dont offer much.

edit: starting to read the thread in a slow pace. Comments. Extended auraof vitality is good out of combat healing. Too good in fact. You can pass by just aura of vitality and throw in healing potions to close the gap. And as I said, of combat. Inside combat ou must be dropping enemies.No need to spend precious sorcery points to twin invisibility, you just upcast it, though you should really let someone else take care of that (perhaps the EK can do it), dont dtray from your class.

[deathadder99]

It is painfully simple to optimize an oathbreaker. Seriously, the paladin chassis combined with the oathbreker's features, lead to one, and one only, route, as optimization goes. Polearm master and sentinel asap. And onwards to level 11 without delays. Everything else, as far as I have searched, is less optimal, from character optimization perspective.

Combat strategy: Use dreadful aspect and wwrathful smite in your first round of combat, and then start chopping people from 10 feet, moving as required to control the battlefield. Bonus action and reaction are used on a round-to-round basis to deliver some very good damage. Sentinel gives another trigger for your reactionary attack, and it also helps you keep your enemies inside the dreadful aspect aura so that they are not even allowed saves after the first one. Wrathful smite simply adds whatever enemy saves against your fear aura to the list of frightened enemies. Aura of hate and IDS work at 110% with polearm and reactionary attacks guaranteed by either pm or sentinel. Everything really complements everything else, and all class and oath features and feats synergize perfectly.

As I said, painfully simple to optimize, and painfully effective.

After 11 level, I am not 100% sure as what is the best way to go, but my money would be on sticking with the class. The 15 oath feature is simply amazing, and dont even let me start talking about the 20 feature. But as I said, I have not look into that far in levels in that disgusting detail, though I would be surprised if a multiclass of some sort was more effective. Oathbreaker seems to be one of those subclasses that you simply dont multiclass.

As for combat and your group, a pure oathbreaker build, optimal as it is if built as I mentioned, will be able to carry your squishy teammates. If you want stealth, maybe you should rely on your teammates, and perhaps you shouldnt go out of your way.

ps: I know many people have a different opinion on this one, but paladorcs make good tanks and are also good for people who enjoy spamming smite (though far from optimal imo). They are not as a good multiclass as people give it credit for, though it can be a lifesaver for those who try to play tanky characters in badly optimized groups and need to withstand really heavy pressure cause the rest of their group for example consists of ranged and squishies who dont offer much.

edit: starting to read the thread in a slow pace. Comments. Extended auraof vitality is good out of combat healing. Too good in fact. You can pass by just aura of vitality and throw in healing potions to close the gap. And as I said, of combat. Inside combat ou must be dropping enemies.No need to spend precious sorcery points to twin invisibility, you just upcast it, though you should really let someone else take care of that (perhaps the EK can do it), dont dtray from your class.

Sorry, new here. It seems though a paladorc could be better in parties without access to haste to self buff. I'm looking at replacing my current level 12 character with a Ftr 1/ Pala 6/ Sorc 5 as it's really useful to have haste as we don't actually have a sorc or wizard in the party. I would love to have paladin 11, and it's probably better, but I just get so much short term from the sorc levels. From here on out I'm probably going to go Ftr 3, Paladin 12, Sorc 5.

Aside from opportunity cost (I lose IDS for 6 levels which is pretty big), at level 20 I feel like a Paladorc is better than a straight Paladin - you have more spell slots, access to a better spell list and you just lose some meh capstones - I feel paladin falls off after 12 ish. The level 15 and 20 Oathbreaker skills are pretty cool, and I do get that spamming smite for nova is a bit useless, but for just 5 levels in Sorc I get Mirror Image, Hold Person, Haste and Shield, all of which are incredible. Sure, if someone else could buff me then I would want to do that, but in a vacuum/ solo it seems better.

What exactly do you feel is suboptimal about the paladorc?