Crafting a Genius Loci

[Kelb_Panthera]

This image

http://i.imgur.com/xVUoSFR.jpg

inspired me.

I'm looking for help hitting CL 70 ASAP for item crafting purposes. So far the best I can do is CL 50 by combining levels in Duskblade, battlesmith, and ironsoul forgemaster. Obviously a few more can be eeked out with items but I'm at a loss to come up with the last ~20.

The idea is to craft an effigy (complete arcane) of a genius loci. Any help is appreciated.

[Zaq]

Hmm. Can we set up any feedback loops (or double-dip scenarios) with Master Spellthief? I do know that Green Star Adept grants +15 CL over 10 levels, but that's not likely to be enough without something else (and I doubt it'd beat what you had already). You might be able to use Master Spellthief to combine with Bloodlines to double-count advancement in several things at once, though those rules are ugly as hell.

How do you define CL "for crafting purposes"? The actual magic item creation rules are pretty vague about under what circumstances your CL has to be at the given level for an item. DMG pg. 282 mentions "the caster level of the creator," but it doesn't say whether the creator has to be able to always cast every spell ever at that CL, or if they need to cast the spell that goes into the item (meaning the spell or spells listed as prereqs for the item) at that CL, or even if you actually have to be that CL to make that item (otherwise very few people could ever make Sovereign Glue, despite it being a very cheap item and only requiring a level 2 spell). CArc pg. 153 says "creating an effigy creature requires a minimum caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice," but again, it doesn't say what the circumstances of that CL have to be. If you just need to be able to cast a spell with that CL, you might look into Greater Consumptive Field (possibly looped) and/or Circle Magic.

Part of it is that it's not clear when "caster level" is defined as being a quality of a creature and when "caster level" is defined as being a quality of a specific instance of a spell. One of these is easier to raise than the other, but it's not clear which one we need for crafting effigies. Can we dig up any RAW text that would indicate one or the other?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A high CL scroll of (greater) consumptive field.

[Edit] Extremely swordsaged.

[Jack_Simth]

This image

http://i.imgur.com/xVUoSFR.jpg

inspired me.

I'm looking for help hitting CL 70 ASAP for item crafting purposes. So far the best I can do is CL 50 by combining levels in Duskblade, battlesmith, and ironsoul forgemaster. Obviously a few more can be eeked out with items but I'm at a loss to come up with the last ~20.

The idea is to craft an effigy (complete arcane) of a genius loci. Any help is appreciated.

You might be able to bypass the problem - a simple 15th level Artificer could, in theory, craft a scroll of Ice Assassin (Frostburn) of one (potentially even an effigy of one). You may need to grab Eschew Materials....

[Kelb_Panthera]

Part of it is that it's not clear when "caster level" is defined as being a quality of a creature and when "caster level" is defined as being a quality of a specific instance of a spell. One of these is easier to raise than the other, but it's not clear which one we need for crafting effigies. Can we dig up any RAW text that would indicate one or the other?

From Complete Arcane under Constructing an Effigy:


... creating an effigy requires a minimum caster level equal to the creature's Hit Dice.

It's pretty clear to me that it needs to be the character's CL. Since he's not casting a spell, special circumstantial boosts wouldn't apply. Both of the PrC's I mentioned give you a much higher CL than other classes but they only apply to meeting qualifications on item crafting.

Circle magic is capped at CL40. Not +40 but flattly at CL 40. Which sucks because it was my first thought too.

I'm not interested in trying to bypass the problem with ice assassin shenanigans. That eschew materials loophole doesn't really jive for me or anyone I play with.

[Graypairofsocks]

Can you pump your self up to CL 47?
If so get some sort of permanent (or long duration) Greater Consumptive Field, casted at that CL 47.
Get 23 creatures, and have them die to the field.
You now have 70 CL.

You will need to find a way to make the spell last long enough to make the effigy.

[Ruethgar]

Bloodlines are forbidden from advancing ECL and there is no limit on how many you can take. So, at level one, pick a bloodline level. You are now level 1, ECL 0 with 0 xp to level up and pick another bloodline level until you have all 76. A little more reasonably would be sticking with a theme, like "I'm the descendant of Tiamat, I get all the Chromatic bloodlines" or "I'm the descendant of the original giants of old, I get all the giant bloodlines plus titan." Still TO, but technically legal. If you DM is using a more reasonable houserule for bloodlines then this is right out.

[Flickerdart]

Does ML = CL for the purpose of this? We might be able to do something there.

Also, can we use Master Spellthief? Is "caster level for all arcane spells" close enough to "caster level"?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does ML = CL for the purpose of this? We might be able to do something there.

Also, can we use Master Spellthief? Is "caster level for all arcane spells" close enough to "caster level"?

ML is probably fine but Master Spellthief looks a little dodgy. It looks like it only counts for casting spells rather than in general just like secrets of the forge's caster level only counts for item crafting rather than in general.

[A_S]

Bloodlines are forbidden from advancing ECL and there is no limit on how many you can take. So, at level one, pick a bloodline level. You are now level 1, ECL 0 with 0 xp to level up and pick another bloodline level until you have all 76. A little more reasonably would be sticking with a theme, like "I'm the descendant of Tiamat, I get all the Chromatic bloodlines" or "I'm the descendant of the original giants of old, I get all the giant bloodlines plus titan." Still TO, but technically legal. If you DM is using a more reasonable houserule for bloodlines then this is right out.
I don't think you even need multiple bloodline cheese. Using Kelb's original class split (Duskblade/Ironsoul Forgemaster/Battlesmith), each bloodline level should count as one level of each of those classes for purposes of determining caster level.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm):
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

So for each bloodline level you take, you're gaining one effective level in each of your classes for caster level purposes. Levels in Duskblade contribute one CL each; levels in the other two classes contribute three CL per class level (for crafting only). So each bloodline level increases your CL for crafting purposes by seven. A character with a single major bloodline is expected to take three bloodline levels over the course of their career.

So a Duskblade 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Battlesmith 5 with a major bloodline has a caster level of 71 for purposes of crafting: 5 (Duskblade class levels)
30 (Ironsoul Forgemaster class levels)
15 (Battlesmith class levels)
21 (effective levels from bloodline)
This doesn't change the fact that the bloodline rules are, as Zaq points out, ugly as hell, but at least you don't have to dive into the bigger, uglier mess of multiple bloodlines.

*edit*

Problem: Battlesmith and Ironsoul Forgemaster both only count "for the purpose of creating magic arms and armor." Effigies are crafted using Craft Construct, not Craft Magic Arms and Armor. I think this ruins this approach.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think you even need multiple bloodline cheese. Using Kelb's original class split (Duskblade/Ironsoul Forgemaster/Battlesmith), each bloodline level should count as one level of each of those classes for purposes of determining caster level.

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm):

So for each bloodline level you take, you're gaining one effective level in each of your classes for caster level purposes. Levels in Duskblade contribute one CL each; levels in the other two classes contribute three CL per class level (for crafting only). So each bloodline level increases your CL for crafting purposes by seven. A character with a single major bloodline is expected to take three bloodline levels over the course of their career.

So a Duskblade 5/Ironsoul Forgemaster 10/Battlesmith 5 with a major bloodline has a caster level of 71 for purposes of crafting: 5 (Duskblade class levels)
30 (Ironsoul Forgemaster class levels)
15 (Battlesmith class levels)
21 (effective levels from bloodline)
This doesn't change the fact that the bloodline rules are, as Zaq points out, ugly as hell, but at least you don't have to dive into the bigger, uglier mess of multiple bloodlines.

Hah! There it is!

Gods, I had forgotten how broken bloodlines get.

Just for the sake of completeness, can we come up with anything that doesn't involve bloodlines? The more solidly non-cheese way this can be done is the better one but I can accept a single major bloodline if I absolutely must.

Thanks for this and thanks in advance to any further help to everyone.

[A_S]

Hah! There it is!

Gods, I had forgotten how broken bloodlines get.

Just for the sake of completeness, can we come up with anything that doesn't involve bloodlines? The more solidly non-cheese way this can be done is the better one but I can accept a single major bloodline if I absolutely must.

Thanks for this and thanks in advance to any further help to everyone.
See my edit :smallfrown: .

[Kelb_Panthera]

See my edit :smallfrown: .

o_o
o_o
o_o
o_o

&$%@!!!

[A_S]

o_o
o_o
o_o
o_o

&$%@!!!
Sorry bruh.

I'm splatbook diving for something better.

[A_S]

Everything I've come up with is pretty cheesy/questionable:
. If you subscribe to the interpretation of Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord's caster level that makes The Wish and the Word (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/The_Wish_and_the_Word_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Bu ild)) possible, you can use the same trick to boost your caster level for crafting. However, I don't think the trick works; it relies on conflating the terms "caster level" and "levels in spellcasting classes," which aren't the same thing.
.
If you consider bloodlines to count as "levels in spellcasting classes" for Ur-Priest's purposes, you can do a similar thing with a major bloodline (take one level each in a bunch of spellcasting classes, make them count as four levels each with your three bloodline levels, then count them all toward your Ur-Priest caster level). However, I think this runs into the same issue; bloodline levels only increase your caster level, they don't count as class levels for the purposes of the class features of other abilities.
.
Depending on how you interpret the phrase "original caster level" in the spells Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive Field, you might be able to raise your caster level arbitrarily high by alternating castings of the two spells. If "original caster level" means "caster level derived only from class levels," it doesn't work. If "original caster level" means "caster level, not including any bonus you might have from a casting of this spell," it does work, and you can get your caster level as high as you want just by casting those two spells.
.
If you consider the limit from Circle Magic to apply prior to other bonuses, you can do what Graypairofsocks suggested upthread: Circle Magic yourself to CL 40, use miscellaneous bonuses like Orange Ioun Stone to get yourself up to CL 47, and then cast a single Greater Consumptive Field. This of course begs the question of how long your CL has to stay that high.
That's pretty much the best I got.

[Bronk]

Well, since you're crafting it anyway, you could also wish one up with a supernatural or spell-like wish, or you could create the body yourself and wish up a golem manual.

However, has you DM already allowed you to make an effigy out of an ooze? That isn't on the accepted list...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, since you're crafting it anyway, you could also wish one up with a supernatural or spell-like wish, or you could create the body yourself and wish up a golem manual.

However, has you DM already allowed you to make an effigy out of an ooze? That isn't on the accepted list...

This is what I get for running too many ideas off of memory alone. I now have to scrap the whole idea.

Ah well. Thanks for your help everyone. Sorry to have wasted your time.

/thread.

[Bronk]

This is what I get for running to many ideas off of memory alone. I now have to scrap the whole idea.

Ah well. Thanks for your help everyone. Sorry to have wasted your time.

/thread.

Whoa, I don't want to be a thread killer! The base could be a half red dragon ooze to account for the flames in the picture...

[Graypairofsocks]

.
If you consider the limit from Circle Magic to apply prior to other bonuses, you can do what Graypairofsocks suggested upthread: Circle Magic yourself to CL 40, use miscellaneous bonuses like Orange Ioun Stone to get yourself up to CL 47, and then cast a single Greater Consumptive Field. This of course begs the question of how long your CL has to stay that high.[/list]
That's pretty much the best I got.
You will need more than just a Orange Ioun Stone, because the caster level boost from them doesn't stack.

[A_S]

You will need more than just a Orange Ioun Stone, because the caster level boost from them doesn't stack.
Thus the "miscellaneous bonuses like" phrasing. Strand of Prayer Beads, Terran Brandy, etc.

[Graypairofsocks]

This is what I get for running too many ideas off of memory alone. I now have to scrap the whole idea.

Ah well. Thanks for your help everyone. Sorry to have wasted your time.

/thread.

If you apply a template to the Genius Loci you can change its type to something other than Ooze.

For example:
The Corrupted (by the Abyss) template changes a creatures type to aberration.
Corrupted template is from "Book of Vile Darkness".
Corrupted by the Abyss template is from "Expedition to the Demonweb pits".