Canonizing a character

[MrFahrenheit]

So I'm a DM, and one of my players has been very true to his paladin ways - sparing what needs to be spared, smiting what does not, interacting socially in a manner truthful to his oath, deity and alignment. In a couple sessions, they will be retrieving a macguffin from an overrun high temple of his deity, which will in turn be used to liberate it. I'm thinking of having the character get canonized a living Saint as reward, and was thinking of how to translate that meaningfully. Here's what I've come up with so far:

Type changes from humanoid to celestial
Resistance to non magical weapon attacks
Resistance to radiant damage
Can cast light at will, but it must be centered on himself

Thoughts? I'm trying to deliver something really cool yet not game breaking.

[JNAProductions]

That honestly sounds pretty good. Make sure, though, that other players get similar buffs OR the buffs are relatively weak. (For instance, if this happens at level 15, it's probably all good. If this happens at level 4, when nonmagical weapons are common... Bit too much.)

[Keltest]

Such effects would more than likely not occur until after his death, if at all. While he might be a paragon of what a mortal (race) can be, he is still a mortal even after his canonization. If it must translate to gameplay mechanics, you could give him a charisma bonus to reflect his renown, and open up doors that would otherwise be closed.

[Lalliman]

I like it, though you will then constantly have to take into account his resistance to nonmagical weapons when designing encounters, which can be awkward if the other characters don't have any such thing. It might be no problem depending on the level you're at, just make sure you're willing to deal with that.

And, of course, you should make sure to give the other players similarly awesome things. Even if the mechanical advantage turns out to be rather small (e.g. if this is a high-level game), pronouncing the paladin a saint without throwing the other players a bone might feel like you're pronouncing him as more important than the rest.

[Sigreid]

I like it, though you will then constantly have to take into account his resistance to nonmagical weapons when designing encounters, which can be awkward if the other characters don't have any such thing. It might be no problem depending on the level you're at, just make sure you're willing to deal with that.

And, of course, you should make sure to give the other players similarly awesome things. Even if the mechanical advantage turns out to be rather small (e.g. if this is a high-level game), pronouncing the paladin a saint without throwing the other players a bone might feel like you're pronouncing him as more important than the rest.

I disagree. The OP specifically stated that the role-play of this paladin has been exceptional. It might even motivate the other players to play better if they know that what is essentially ascension to minor demigod-hood is possible.

[MrFahrenheit]

So the party will be 11-12 tops by the time this happens. As for the rest of the PCs...they've been great too, but most are at least 1-10,000 xp behind him (only two aren't). My idea for the ones lagging behind is that as the companions of a newly canonized living saint, is that their xp is rushed to equal his. That should please them easily.

My only real concern is for the other two party members who are slightly ahead of him in xp. Thinking of giving the bard another skill expertise of his choice, and giving him the title of loremaster. Not sure what to do with the womanizing sor 9 (maybe 10 by that point)/warlock 2 though. Perhaps immunity to all disease? :P

[swrider]

I love this concept, though I would also increase his responsibilities. Perhaps have a level 1 to 3 paladin assigned to him as a squire that he is supposed to train (and keep alive).

[CantigThimble]

So the party will be 11-12 tops by the time this happens. As for the rest of the PCs...they've been great too, but most are at least 1-10,000 xp behind him (only two aren't). My idea for the ones lagging behind is that as the companions of a newly canonized living saint, is that their xp is rushed to equal his. That should please them easily.

My only real concern is for the other two party members who are slightly ahead of him in xp. Thinking of giving the bard another skill expertise of his choice, and giving him the title of loremaster. Not sure what to do with the womanizing sor 9 (maybe 10 by that point)/warlock 2 though. Perhaps immunity to all disease? :P

If you give those two expertise or advantage on all social checks involving people who know they're companions of a living saint they should be able to appreciate that. (in different ways) Plus the paladin can already cure disease whenever he wants. Honestly I wouldn't worry too much about other people being jealous, everyone loves it when the party tank is tankier. (unless there's a barbarian whose being out-tanked here)

[SharkForce]

perhaps i'm just being a wet blanket here, but...

the paladin is already being rewarded in-game for keeping his oath. by being a paladin. you don't get all those cool abilities and spells for failing to keep your oath, after all.

if you want to reward specific things as a result of his behaviour beyond the paladin powers, i would make it primarily social and reputation-based. people know they can trust the paladin, and good people are more willing to provide help because they know he's not just going to use it for petty things. when he accuses the duke of evilton of being in cahoots with the orc warlord in exchange for being made governor of the area after the warlord conquers it, his accusation should carry a lot of weight and spark a serious investigation. and so on.

if you're looking to reward the player, i would say handing out inspiration regularly is the way to go. because frankly every paladin of the same oath is presumably also following that oath... that's what being a paladin means.

[MrStabby]

It is worth rewarding players for things they do especially well. My worry here is that it isn't an option available to other characters.

What would the equivalent be for a fighter or a wizard? I don't mean this in terms of what mechanical rewards could be dished out, but instead about what RP adherence to a cause/character focus could be rewarded.

Taking into account the above posts I would suggest a starting point of 1 free resurrection and comes back with celestial creature type. Additional bonuses could be granted as levels are gained so it is slow and you can gauge reactions of other players.

I might consider homebrewing some "celestial" feats that could be taken as ASIs - exchanging one mechanical advantage for another is fair and allows the Paladin to better reflect their character/status than just picking form the normal list. One advantage of this is that it allows you to provide the same type of customisation for the other characters at the appropriate point.

[MrFahrenheit]

Ah inspiration! Tbh I completely forgot about this. Totally gonna go with it. Still want to do the change to celestial type, but I may have it provide very little effect otherwise now.

[Giant2005]

Ah inspiration! Tbh I completely forgot about this. Totally gonna go with it. Still want to do the change to celestial type, but I may have it provide very little effect otherwise now.

The DMG details blessings, charms, and marks of prestige that are supposed to be used if your party has accomplished something really grand - you should look into that avenue.
As Sharkforce said though, I wouldn't reward someone merely for doing their job - even if they do their job really well. Such rewards should only be handed out for going far beyond the call of duty (and considering everyone in the party are assumingly accomplishing the same deeds - everyone should be rewarded equally).

[Flashy]

Ah inspiration! Tbh I completely forgot about this. Totally gonna go with it. Still want to do the change to celestial type, but I may have it provide very little effect otherwise now.

Freebie Thaumaturgy also seems like a really natural thing to grant here.

[Arkhios]

Along with becoming a celestial after-death (if only changes are the type, nothing else) you could well increase his or her current charisma score and the maximum by 2 each. In my opinion that would be reasonable effect of such transformation/ascension without granting all too much as resistances etc. Sure, a +1 to Charisma benefits a paladin a lot, but then again, you can't increase your charisma above 20 by any other means. At least I'm not aware of any magical item that does it (except maybe the manuals, but those are legendary magical items anyway ....Or, maybe the deity could provide the paladin with a libram which acts like one of those manuals and increases Charisma?)

granting all those resistances feels slightly too powerful for a level 11-12 character. You might grant them gradually at later points of course, as rewards for continued service or the like :)

[MrFahrenheit]

Thanks for the input here, guys. Really given me a lot of ideas. And yes, while the party has been great, he's been exceptional.

So here's what I'm thinking now:
1 inspiration point
Type changes to celestial
May regain one spell slot of a level = to what his paladin level's "modifier" would be (pretending it's an ability score) per short rest, which must be used for divine smite (at level 20, gets one fourth and one first). Recharges on a long rest
Resistance to radiant damage
May glow with radiant light for a minute once per short or long rest
Unsure about the +2 to charisma. If I did, I wouldn't go about increasing the max as he hasn't been pumping it, so it won't make a difference. I may nix the spell slot short rest recharge bit mentioned above if I give him this.

If he's revived by any means other than true resurrection, he begins to lose those benefits piece by piece, determined by what level revive-related spell is used.

As for the two more veteran party members: letting the bard and sorcerer get expertise in a skill of their choosing.

Thinking about it now as the saint, his cohort (loremaster bard and herald sor/war), and his companions. With the xp handout, and knowing my party, I think this will satisfy everyone.

[Ronnocius]

Thanks for the input here, guys. Really given me a lot of ideas. And yes, while the party has been great, he's been exceptional.

So here's what I'm thinking now:


Thinking about it now as the saint, his cohort (loremaster bard and herald sor/war), and his companions. With the xp handout, and knowing my party, I think this will satisfy everyone.


I think that's good, but maybe instead of the spell slot regain, give him a blessing. Maybe make an angel or the voice of his deity speak to him or the party and grant him a blessing.

Also, I'm not sure about what resistance is, but think immunity to radiant damage would be better.

[Arkhios]

I'm not sure about what resistance is, but think immunity to radiant damage would be better.

Resistance means in 5th edition's terms that whenever you take damage of the resisted type, you take half damage. In that sense, Immunity would definitely be too much.

[Rusvul]

You are by no means required to give everyone cool things when only one person has earned it. However, it's definitely important to make sure everyone else has a way to earn cool things should they put in the effort.

[Sigreid]

Ok, I've resisted as long as I can. First you need a tube about 3.5-4 feet wide and at least 8 feet long. Then you need to find some gnomes that will sell you a few pounds of smoke powder...

[JumboWheat01]

Ok, I've resisted as long as I can. First you need a tube about 3.5-4 feet wide and at least 8 feet long. Then you need to find some gnomes that will sell you a few pounds of smoke powder...

See, this is why it pays to play a halfling. Who needs fancy-shmancy technology. Just get a raging barbarian and you can get some pretty awesome distances from being thrown.

On topic, I like the ideas you have their OP. And I like the idea of such good characterization being rewarded.

[eastmabl]

Depending upon the level of the character, an epic boon might be fitting.

[ZenBear]

I don't see a reason to give a mechanical benefit in this case, unless it's to motivate the other players to be equally exceptional roleplayers. Being Canonized is just a symbolic gesture when you get right down to it. Give him some RP benefits like you get from Backgrounds; recognized by the faithful, gifted aid and boons by the powerful, etc.

[MrFahrenheit]

I don't see a reason to give a mechanical benefit in this case, unless it's to motivate the other players to be equally exceptional roleplayers. Being Canonized is just a symbolic gesture when you get right down to it. Give him some RP benefits like you get from Backgrounds; recognized by the faithful, gifted aid and boons by the powerful, etc.

This is true and why I am still debating about the +2 cha.

[Kane0]

Resistance to radiant damage, 2 cleric cantrips (light, thaumaturgy, sacred flame, guidance) and the change to celestial should be more than enough. The resistance to nonmagic weapons would be a touch of overkill at level 11ish

[Crusadr]

I understand that you're quite pleased with the roleplaying your paladin is doing and wanting to reward them but I'm in similar agreement that the reward should consist of more reputation and social abilities. Sure your paladin may be quite the paragon amongst your party, but is your paladin truly this highly regarded within the entire paladin order itself, within the whole church, in the eyes of his god?

If so then by all means, go ahead and have him become this new radiant being, but don't feel the need to bump up all your players as an afterthought, it sort of diminishes how special this accomplishment is supposed to be. Yes it's unfair, but as a player I'd feel almost insulted that I got a bump up purely to match the guy. So either reward them for those accomplishments in their own times, for their own reasons, or as initially said, give the paladin an amazing reputation to work off of, new contacts etc.

[Giant2005]

If so then by all means, go ahead and have him become this new radiant being, but don't feel the need to bump up all your players as an afterthought, it sort of diminishes how special this accomplishment is supposed to be. Yes it's unfair, but as a player I'd feel almost insulted that I got a bump up purely to match the guy.

I'd have the opposite reaction.
If the plot moved in a way that gave the Paladin massive bonuses and everyone else nothing, I'd not just feel alienated, but I'd feel like my character was just a secondary character. I'd feel like my character was one of the many NPCs in Final Fantasy xiii - I can't even give you one of their names because they are far less memorable than Lightning due to Lightning receiving all of the plot focus and perks.

[Crusadr]

I'd have the opposite reaction.
If the plot moved in a way that gave the Paladin massive bonuses and everyone else nothing, I'd not just feel alienated, but I'd feel like my character was just a secondary character. I'd feel like my character was one of the many NPCs in Final Fantasy xiii - I can't even give you one of their names because they are far less memorable than Lightning due to Lightning receiving all of the plot focus and perks.

Oh I agree absolutely, which is why I said I'm against the idea in the first place, but if it's gonna be used then that was my take on it. The paladin is coming across as a favored player here with everyone else as an afterthought, which is unfortunate situation but not necessarily true. Also given the bounded accuracy system of 5th Edition I don't know how much messing around with mechanical bonuses will affect things too severely, which is why I believe inspiration and story telling, social constructs make for much better rewards.

[CantigThimble]

I don't think wild guesses about group dynamic based on our own groups will be nearly as accurate as the OP's understanding of his group's social dynamic and play styles.

[REVISIONIST]

I don't think wild guesses about group dynamic based on our own groups will be nearly as accurate as the OP's understanding of his group's social dynamic and play styles.

Group dynamics aside, rewarding good/great roleplay deserve to be rewarded. Inspiration points, like action points in 4E seem to get lost or forgotten in the heat of an encounter, where a static boost might be remembered.

[Giant2005]

Group dynamics aside, rewarding good/great roleplay deserve to be rewarded. Inspiration points, like action points in 4E seem to get lost or forgotten in the heat of an encounter, where a static boost might be remembered.

I'm not a fan of the Inspiration mechanic - it is too little to accomplish its proposed result (encourageing roleplay). Plus it gets needlessly confusing when you have a Bard in the game due to the name.

I prefer an xp reward system to encourage roleplay - I have transplated the Palladium xp rewards over to DnD for that purpose. The xp rewards add up quite significantly and envy drives the crappier roleplayers into improving their game.

[Sigreid]

OK, I've been thinking about this. I suggest give him one of the saint abilities now. If he continues to be exemplary, let him earn another one every couple of levels. Likewise, if the other players step up their game, think of things you can reward them with that will fit just as well, and be just as appreciated.

[Giant2005]

OK, I've been thinking about this. I suggest give him one of the saint abilities now. If he continues to be exemplary, let him earn another one every couple of levels. Likewise, if the other players step up their game, think of things you can reward them with that will fit just as well, and be just as appreciated.

That gives me an even better idea!
It is obviously a lot more work, but making a prestige class that he now qualifies for would be the perfect way of implementing these buffs!
The other players can't feel alienated because he is simply taking levels in a class just like they are - rather than it being a straight plot-related buff, there is an opportunity cost.

[Picasso007]

For the sorcerer/warlock, what patron does he have? Has anyone created a "Celestial Patron" homebrew yet? :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

That gives me an even better idea!
It is obviously a lot more work, but making a prestige class that he now qualifies for would be the perfect way of implementing these buffs!
The other players can't feel alienated because he is simply taking levels in a class just like they are - rather than it being a straight plot-related buff, there is an opportunity cost.

Along the same vein, what about a new oath. Oath of the Sacred Champion or some such. Having unique abilities are cool, being the founder of a new oath that young paladins aspire to follow? That's the coolest.

[Giant2005]

Along the same vein, what about a new oath. Oath of the Sacred Champion or some such. Having unique abilities are cool, being the founder of a new oath that young paladins aspire to follow? That's the coolest.

That would work too, it just seems like it would be much harder to implement. I mean a Paladin can only have one oath and the player would have to choose between them which would obviously cause issues if he liked his current oath. A prestige class just gives him more control in that he wouldn't have to choose between them but could take parts of both.

[Sigreid]

That would work too, it just seems like it would be much harder to implement. I mean a Paladin can only have one oath and the player would have to choose between them which would obviously cause issues if he liked his current oath. A prestige class just gives him more control in that he wouldn't have to choose between them but could take parts of both.

I suppose, but if you were to work with the player on building the oath I think it could work. The thing about the prestige classes is that to date, they don't fit the paradigm of the design. But what ever you do, it only has to work for your table. I would be interested to read how it works out.

[Gurifu]

Options for rewards that feel great for the recipient but don't make anybody worse by comparison:

Bonus aura abilities! Paladin gets a new toy, everybody gets to play with it.

If the Paladin is the party's only source of magical healing, bonuses to Lay On Hands. Everybody likes to be healed. Don't do this if you have a cleric or anybody with more healing magic than you can get out of a 50gp bottle.

Bonus utility spells - again, only if there's not a utility mage in the party.

Exemption from the material cost of Raise Dead and Revivify, especially if the Paladin is the only party member who can provide those services.

Bonus quests (given by the god/s) to new and interesting regions, with themed rewards, made possible by utility-oriented divine assistance channeled through the Paladin. Ex: A quest to the Elemental Plane of Fire; for the duration, the Paladin's lay-on-hands grants 12 hours of fire damage immunity; the party must infiltrate the City of Brass and prevent a Sultan of the Efreet from realizing his plan to enslave the city of Waterdeep as part of his play for power.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Was only thinking of letting the background benefits of folk hero accumulate to them.

The fame/renown route should be considered first, not die roll benefits. And fame is not always good.