Harry Potter and Dresden Files Discussion

[JNAProductions]

Both are kinda similar. So which do you prefer?

Me personally, Dresden Files. I like the more limited magic, how there's more rules to it, and how Muggles actually matter.

[The Glyphstone]

Why one or the other? They're hardly similar at all beyond 'modern world with a secret magical world hidden beneath'. They're written for entirely different audiences, with entirely different themes. It'd be like comparing Cars and Fast&Furious because they both involve racing.

[Rater202]

They have different primary demographics-no conflict, you're allowed to like both.

Hell, Jim Butcher had no idea that Harry Potter was a thing when he named his Wizard Harry, and after a brief "Oh god people are gonna think I copied" period, he figured that people interested in Modern/Urban Fantasy would probably come to him when they finished Harry Potter.

Jim has even included jokes and referances poking fun at the coincidence.

@The Glyphstone Not quite an Apt Comparison. All of the HP Books after Philosopher's Stone were written for a growing Audience-the people who were 10-12 when the first book came out, so you get a series that steadily becomes more Mature with it's Audience.

Dresden Files is Consistently written for mid-teen to adult audiences.

[Yuki Akuma]

All I'll say is that Harry is the best wizard ever.

I mean, he came back from the dead! How many wizards can top that?

[JNAProductions]

I was just talking heavily Harry Potter with a friend, and I'm realizing more and more that I don't like the Harry Potter world nearly as much the Dresden Files world. Magic is far too powerful and unlimited in Harry Potter, without any of the limits Dresden Files have.

[The Glyphstone]

The HP World just isn't as developed. Dresden gets out and about frequently, interacts with his world, and has an effect on it. Potter lives in what is for all intents and purposes a bubble universe for 6 books, contained inside the grounds and territory of his school. The world outside Hogwarts just isn't relevant, so naturally it gets far less attention.

On those grounds, I'd also favor DF, simply because I am addicting to good world-building and Butcher does great world-building. Rowling's world-building isn't bad so much as absent for the most part. But as literary works I like them both immensely.

[JNAProductions]

And that is seriously starting to nag on me. I need the rules, the consistency, the existence.

[Lord Raziere]

All I'll say is that Harry is the best wizard ever.

I mean, he came back from the dead! How many wizards can top that?

:smallwink: I see what you did there.

[Traab]

I like dresden better. The rather large tonal shift of harry potter bothered me. I never reread anything past book 5. Heck, even book 5 was rarely reread.

[BlueHerring]

On those grounds, I'd also favor DF, simply because I am addicting to good world-building and Butcher does great world-building. Rowling's world-building isn't bad so much as absent for the most part. But as literary works I like them both immensely.This is basically my reasoning when I have to admit that I don't really like Harry Potter. It's not that it isn't a solid series, but at the same time, it feels very insulated from the wider world.

And then you have things that just feel downright lazy, like the Sorting Hat. I won't get into it, but being judged for your seven years at Wizard School because of your personality at the age of 11 is a bit ridiculous. And don't even get me started on the Time Turners.

I prefer DF much more because it plays with those ideas. Essentially, the "bad magic" is totally there and available for use, but the concept of abusing your power until you go down a slippery slope embraces the idea that power corrupts.

[thorgrim29]

All I'll say is that Harry is the best wizard ever.

I mean, he came back from the dead! How many wizards can top that?

Good one. Also, despite very superficial similarities (hidden magic in a modern world and that's about it) they are too different. I tend to prefer DF, the worldbuilding is better, the narrator voice is great, and it's much more consistent. As a coming of age story HP is very good though.

[Forum Explorer]

Dresden Files entirely. I don't like Harry Potter, as I feel it tried to take itself too seriously when it seemed that the problem was easily solved by whoever was smart enough to combine current muggle tech with magic and no one can do this apparently.

[Rater202]

And then you have things that just feel downright lazy, like the Sorting Hat. I won't get into it, but being judged for your seven years at Wizard School because of your personality at the age of 11 is a bit ridiculous.

They actually talk about that a bit in the last book.

[Talar]

So my big problems with Harry Potter deal mainly with Rowling herself. I do not like her as a person and it bleeds into my view of the books. It is obvious that much of the books were not planned and that she pulled a lot of it out of her butt. Then there are some huge missed opportunities, for instance in the Battle of Hogwarts she could have written about how Slytherins stayed and fought their parents and what not. There could have been real depth added there but she ignored it. Also much of what makes the HP verse worthwhile are things the fans came up with and not stuff she intended or has outright claimed is not the case but are better than her idea.

Also Dresden Files is just better and includes more original ideas.

[Xefas]

Puh, Voldemort wishes he had the Storm Front infinite-range-unblockable-undodgeable-no-save-no-line-of-sight-you-just-die-instantly heart explosion extravaganza spell.

I've totally been waiting for Harry to pull that trick out from under his (lack of) hat.

[The Glyphstone]

Puh, Voldemort wishes he had the Storm Front infinite-range-unblockable-undodgeable-no-save-no-line-of-sight-you-just-die-instantly heart explosion extravaganza spell.

I've totally been waiting for Harry to pull that trick out from under his (lack of) hat.

What has he fought that A) it wouldn't be a gigantic glowing-neon-sign violation of the First Law to do that on and B) would be vulnerable to it? It was a major ritual curse, not a combat spell anyways.

[Xefas]

What has he fought that A) it wouldn't be a gigantic glowing-neon-sign violation of the First Law to do that on and B) would be vulnerable to it? It was a major ritual curse, not a combat spell anyways.

I think the only two answers to 'A' would be 1) Anything not human, or 2) Anything, provided Harry is in a situation where he doesn't give a good goddamn about breaking a law or not.

And I guess 'B' would be anything that 1) Has a humanoid physiology and 2) Isn't inherently resistant to magic.

[The Glyphstone]

I think the only two answers to 'A' would be 1) Anything not human, or 2) Anything, provided Harry is in a situation where he doesn't give a good goddamn about breaking a law or not.

And I guess 'B' would be anything that 1) Has a humanoid physiology and 2) Isn't inherently resistant to magic.

Harry doesn't break the Laws of Magic. That's his thing. I'm not sure why you think he'd even consider it.

[Forum Explorer]

Puh, Voldemort wishes he had the Storm Front infinite-range-unblockable-undodgeable-no-save-no-line-of-sight-you-just-die-instantly heart explosion extravaganza spell.

I've totally been waiting for Harry to pull that trick out from under his (lack of) hat.

It does require you to have a mystic bond to the target though, like some of their hair or blood. And I don't think Harry has ever had that advantage over his main antagonist of the story.

[Rater202]

Um, Laws of Magic aren't "rules," they're a "do this and it will irreparably stain your soul, also these guys will cut your head off" thing.

And technically, Harry did use the spell himself later in the series.
So my big problems with Harry Potter deal mainly with Rowling herself. I do not like her as a person and it bleeds into my view of the books. It is obvious that much of the books were not planned and that she pulled a lot of it out of her butt. Then there are some huge missed opportunities, for instance in the Battle of Hogwarts she could have written about how Slytherins stayed and fought their parents and what not. There could have been real depth added there but she ignored it. Also much of what makes the HP verse worthwhile are things the fans came up with and not stuff she intended or has outright claimed is not the case but are better than her idea. very few people are going to go from "I've been raised to believe this" to "I'm going to fight my parents to the death because this thing I've been raised to believe is right is actually wrong," in one day, and most of the slytherins came back to fight anyway.

[Xefas]

Harry doesn't break the Laws of Magic. That's his thing. I'm not sure why you think he'd even consider it.

Right, and there's a point in the book line that if I'd said "Man, I can't wait for Harry to go full necromancer and smash up a half dozen city blocks of Chicago with a giant zombie." I'd've sounded just as insane. Rabid fans would be howling for my blood over broken laws and broken masquerades and what-not. There would be name calling.

It's a matter of circumstances.

[Rater202]

Right, and there's a point in the book line that if I'd said "Man, I can't wait for Harry to go full necromancer and smash up a half dozen city blocks of Chicago with a giant zombie." I'd've sounded just as insane. Rabid fans would be howling for my blood over broken laws and broken masquerades and what-not. There would be name calling.

It's a matter of circumstances.

He didn't break the Law-The Law aainst Necromancy only aplies to humans, he used it on a T-Rex. No Law broken.

He's never gonna break the first law(kill humans or human like things with magic), because he's already broken it and if he does it again there's no defense.

And, as I said, he's already used the heart ripper curse. Or rather, the curse that the Heart Ripper Curse is a pathetic watered down version of.

[Xefas]

He didn't break the Law-The Law aainst Necromancy only aplies to humans, he used it on a T-Rex. No Law broken.

I understand that. And, so, he wouldn't be breaking the law by externalizing the internal organs of a non-human. That's sort of my point.



And, as I said, he's already used the heart ripper curse. Or rather, the curse that the Heart Ripper Curse is a pathetic watered down version of.

True. But the context was a lot different.

[Talar]

very few people are going to go from "I've been raised to believe this" to "I'm going to fight my parents to the death because this thing I've been raised to believe is right is actually wrong," in one day, and most of the slytherins came back to fight anyway.

True, but throughout the series slytherins are just bad because bad. And I always dislike that in any form. And I would point out that it wouldn't necessarily be in one day. Everyone changes once they go off to college which is what essentially Hogwarts is, for instance my beliefs do not match my parents as I prepare to graduate college, but in high school they were more in line with my parents. But yeah anyway, my beef is with the author, good story but could have been great with a better writer behind it.

[Rater202]

True, but throughout the series slytherins are just bad because bad.

No. Malfoy, his thugs, The first Slytherin Quiditch Captain, and like, three others were depicted as bad, and for most of them it's because they were raised to be bad.

Among former Slytherins you have Tom, who is legitimately a psychopath, Snape who is probably the most complex character and mean becuase of reasons only tangenatly related to his Slytheriness,and exactly one other Deatheater is confirmed Slytherin, though we can infer about others.

And Salazar was apparently a jackass.

That is not a big enough sample size to say that they're all bad because bad. I would go so far as to say that non of them are bad because bad-the bad ones all have reasons to be bad... Exocet for Tom, but he's psycho.

[Kitten Champion]

I like both book series to an extent. Harry Potter did an excellent job giving to me the whole fantasy school life when I was a kid, I think its characters stood out as distinct and colourful, and some of the mystery plotting I rather like -- in particularly compared to a lot of YA fiction I've read.

On the other hand, the magic is mostly dull, a lot of the world doesn't make much internal sense, there's a lot of extreme conveniences there to push the plot along, it gets pretty corny particularly when they get into the Moral of the Story in the conclusion, the romantic relationships were pretty forced and just skippable overall, and I really didn't like the conclusion for a variety of reasons.

With Dresden? Sort of hit-or-miss for me. Dresden himself can range from funny and charming to grating and too over-the-top, sometimes the narrative and supporting cast can feel too cliched, and some of Butcher's books feel like they're simply treading water... but when they do work, and Butcher's doing clever twists on noir detective tropes or taking this magical underworld in interesting places, I can quite enjoy them.

I would say I prefer Dresden for two reasons though...

First - Dresden's a fun character to follow around for the most part and yields to deeper complexity at times, whereas Harry's more of bland protagonist character which is about projecting yourself on more than anything and that ceased to be a thing I really wanted to do as I grew up with Rowling's books. Harry Potter has great characters, but Harry Potter isn't among them.

Secondly - I could, and I suppose did, play an RPG set in the world of the Dresden Files, and I simply wouldn't want to do the same with Harry Potter's. Butcher does a good job creating a wider sense of perspective to his world, as in there's more to it than what Dresden's experiencing and people are living, breathing, and acting when not on the page. With Harry Potter, the world in general feels highly artificial or simply inert when it's not actively engaging with its protagonist. Really, so much of it feels confined to Rowling's pen and not my imagination. Her world has charm, certainly, but it's claustrophobic once you get outside the meagre confines of Hogwarts.

[Twrbs883]

magic can be a bit perverted sometimes. it's not really into checking all boxes and fulfilling all those pretty prophecies and one harry's as just good as another. dresden vs voldemort . and potter vs well , the universe.

[Velaryon]

I don't think the series have more than a few superficial similarities, but between the two I prefer Dresden.

I didn't read the Potter series until I was an adult, so unlike a lot of its fans I did not grow up with the characters. Its lack of internal consistency and fairly large gaps of logic didn't bother me a whole lot at the time, but in retrospect they are rather glaring. The books have charm, but to me they were just another fantasy series, and once I was done I moved on.

One thing I really don't understand is the constant tinkering with the universe after the books were done. It's like Rowling just can't let it go. The frequent and mostly inconsequential "reveals" of things she decided about the characters after the books were done just seem to me like she's writing fanfiction for her own books. I don't begrudge her or her fans that enjoyment, but I don't really see any point to it either.

As for the Dresden Files, it's a very good (but not perfect) series that I really enjoyed, especially in audiobook format. The TV series seemed like a dud, but the books and comics have been a lot of fun. I wouldn't mind running the RPG either, but none of my regular gaming buddies are big readers so to them it would just be another RPG, and another system they'd have to learn.

[lord_khaine]

And that is seriously starting to nag on me. I need the rules, the consistency, the existence.

Thats how i ended turning to Sanderson :P

[Grytorm]

Um, Laws of Magic aren't "rules," they're a "do this and it will irreparably stain your soul, also these guys will cut your head off" thing.

For the most part. It hasn't really gone into it but one or two of the rules while still fall into the head cut off territory might not muck around with your soul. Mostly the 6th law about time travel seems to be more that messing with time is really stupid and dangerous. Don't do it. And maybe violating the 2nd law isn't inherently damaging to the soul but is still illegal so you cannot sneak around the 1st law. Edit: And they weakened the 3rd law a little in one of the later books. Allowing mental battles for training purposes.

Edit: Also I like Dresden Files more, but I really need to finish Harry Potter. Especially since I enjoy the lengthy radical alteration fan fictions to much.
ie: Oh God Not Again, and HP and the Methods of Rationality.

[The Glyphstone]

When people mention HP Fanfiction, I always feel compelled to bring up Thinking In Little Green Boxes. Especially now that Deadpool has his own movie, maybe it'll get more chapters.

[Grytorm]

When people mention HP Fanfiction, I always feel compelled to bring up Thinking In Little Green Boxes. Especially now that Deadpool has his own movie, maybe it'll get more chapters.

I read the first couple chapters, I think off of your recommendation. I just wasn't willing to read it when it got into Pokemon though.

[Clertar]

In terms of world building, I can't really tell, as the writing of the DF was so horrifying I could never get into the series.

In terms of writing, then, I'd have to give it to HP. Not just because the DF is written like second-tier fanfic, but because Rowling was actually a very skilled writer that gave us a contemporary Roald Dahl style that ended up transitioning to very decent quality young adult fiction.

But to tell the truth, if I disregard the major term, I'd say that Charles de Lint crafts much better urban magic worlds and tales than either Butcher or Rowling.

[Traab]

I just read a lot of crossover fanfiction now so its hard to recall the standard hp stuff I liked. But harry potter in the star wars universe is always entertaining. Same for hp/avengers. One that pops to mind is The Real Us. Its one of those "Haha, you only THINK you know what happened!" type of stories. Basically, its post book 7 (though not epilogue) and they get called on to tell the grand tale of the entire series of events for a press conference at hogwarts. Turns out harry hermione and a fair few others were pretending the whole time. The weasleys get a bit of a bashing. I want to finish the dresden books before I dip into the fanfiction for that as I have enough spoilers already dangit. I had major plot points spoiled up to, I want to say Dead Beat, because of a fanfic I read that had a LOT of crossovers including a brief dresden cross which managed to give away just... SO MUCH INFO. hand, coin, brother, girlfriend, mab owning his debt, etc etc etc On the plus side it had him training Bruce Wayne to be a wizard PI because bruce thought it was totally badass how dresden stopped that robber who was mugging his parents after a night at the movies. /cough Harry thinks Bruce will be great at it, gods gift to criminal investigation. The Worlds Greatest Detective. Not sure why he thinks that, but you know, optimism, thy name is dresden. :smallbiggrin:

[Chen]

For the most part. It hasn't really gone into it but one or two of the rules while still fall into the head cut off territory might not muck around with your soul. Mostly the 6th law about time travel seems to be more that messing with time is really stupid and dangerous. Don't do it. And maybe violating the 2nd law isn't inherently damaging to the soul but is still illegal so you cannot sneak around the 1st law. Edit: And they weakened the 3rd law a little in one of the later books. Allowing mental battles for training purposes.

You know I'm not sure how the whole staining your soul thing works.

Ebenezer is the Blackstaff who is allowed to break the laws of magic. He can use magic to directly kill other humans. When he did it WITH the blackstaff he did it on a fairly large scale (~200 people dead in Changes). He also used magic to drop that satellite on that Vampire's compound, no doubt killing some regular humans in that regard too. I mean the position itself grants him the authority to do it, but I don't see how a "legal" position could somehow absolve him of the soul staining bit. I suppose it could only work if he's using the staff which may "absorb" some of that soul staining stuff. It did seem to affect him when he killed the gunmen in Changes.

[The Glyphstone]

You know I'm not sure how the whole staining your soul thing works.

Ebenezer is the Blackstaff who is allowed to break the laws of magic. He can use magic to directly kill other humans. When he did it WITH the blackstaff he did it on a fairly large scale (~200 people dead in Changes). He also used magic to drop that satellite on that Vampire's compound, no doubt killing some regular humans in that regard too. I mean the position itself grants him the authority to do it, but I don't see how a "legal" position could somehow absolve him of the soul staining bit. I suppose it could only work if he's using the staff which may "absorb" some of that soul staining stuff. It did seem to affect him when he killed the gunmen in Changes.


There's a bit where Harry can see "veins of venomous black" creeping up Ebenezer's arm from the Blackstaff in Changes (p396), so I think the staff itself definitely has to be more than just a symbol of office in terms of protecting the Blackstaff (the person) from the corrupting power of magical murder.

Generally, as seen with Molly in her internal monologues (in side stories), and externally via accounts of other warlocks, the corruption/staining is that Dark magic is addictive. Each time you use it, it becomes easier and more tempting to do it again, escalating and amplifying until you are a crazed magical serial killer/megalomaniac/whatever. So the Laws just flat-out prohibit the use of dark magics to try and prevent anyone from even beginning that downward spiral.

[AvatarVecna]

So my big problems with Harry Potter deal mainly with Rowling herself. I do not like her as a person and it bleeds into my view of the books. It is obvious that much of the books were not planned and that she pulled a lot of it out of her butt. Then there are some huge missed opportunities, for instance in the Battle of Hogwarts she could have written about how Slytherins stayed and fought their parents and what not. There could have been real depth added there but she ignored it. Also much of what makes the HP verse worthwhile are things the fans came up with and not stuff she intended or has outright claimed is not the case but are better than her idea.

Also Dresden Files is just better and includes more original ideas.

Even as a huge fan, I have to agree with the bolded part. There's a lot of handwaving going on in the HP books...but that's one of the things that's made it so good for fanfiction; when the vague explanation for everything is "uh...magic" or characterization is based on whatever short phrase the author originally used to describe the character, the fans can fill in the blanks however they please, which leads to a lot of creative ideas (as well as a mountain of terrible ones).


I just read a lot of crossover fanfiction now so its hard to recall the standard hp stuff I liked. But harry potter in the star wars universe is always entertaining. Same for hp/avengers. One that pops to mind is The Real Us. Its one of those "Haha, you only THINK you know what happened!" type of stories. Basically, its post book 7 (though not epilogue) and they get called on to tell the grand tale of the entire series of events for a press conference at hogwarts. Turns out harry hermione and a fair few others were pretending the whole time. The weasleys get a bit of a bashing.

"The Real Us" is on a short list of HP fanfics that I remember by name for how good it is. It effectively rewrites canon in a short, succinct manner by giving some extra scenes showing how everything going on in the canon foreground was an elaborate hoax.And it's one of the only fanfictions I've seen that successfully makes Umbridge out to be a good person.

[GloatingSwine]

All I'll say is that Harry is the best wizard ever.

I mean, he came back from the dead! How many wizards can top that?

They don't even let you in to wizard club until you've come back from the dead at least once.


(Also turns out Harry was only mostly dead, which is different from all dead).



There's a bit where Harry can see "veins of venomous black" creeping up Ebenezer's arm from the Blackstaff in Changes (p396), so I think the staff itself definitely has to be more than just a symbol of office in terms of protecting the Blackstaff (the person) from the corrupting power of magical murder.

Most speculation is that the Blackstaff is Mother Winter's walking stick

[thorgrim29]

One that pops to mind is The Real Us. Its one of those "Haha, you only THINK you know what happened!" type of stories. Basically, its post book 7 (though not epilogue) and they get called on to tell the grand tale of the entire series of events for a press conference at hogwarts. Turns out harry hermione and a fair few others were pretending the whole time.

I started that yesterday.... it's alright, could use a bit less 12 years old sex. I read a HP/Avengers fanfic once that was pretty cool (actually, 2 of them). One where Harry, post-books, befriends Tony Stark and gradually gets pulled into the avengers, and the other where James was actually Thor and once he gets his memory back he comes to take care of his son. Sometimes when I'm bored I wander through the recommanded fanfic lists on TvTropes.

[Traab]

I started that yesterday.... it's alright, could use a bit less 12 years old sex. I read a HP/Avengers fanfic once that was pretty cool (actually, 2 of them). One where Harry, post-books, befriends Tony Stark and gradually gets pulled into the avengers, and the other where James was actually Thor and once he gets his memory back he comes to take care of his son. Sometimes when I'm bored I wander through the recommanded fanfic lists on TvTropes.

Wand and Shield and Child of the Storm im assuming? Yeah, both excellent, though child of the storm is better imo. Though too be fair I guessed on wand and shield since there are a few stories along those lines, including an immortal harry who works in a mechanic shop that happened to bump into tony when his car broke down just outside.

[thorgrim29]

Wand and Shield and Child of the Storm im assuming? Yeah, both excellent, though child of the storm is better imo. Though too be fair I guessed on wand and shield since there are a few stories along those lines, including an immortal harry who works in a mechanic shop that happened to bump into tony when his car broke down just outside.

Yeah, that one.

[Sapphire Guard]

I don't really see these two as comparable, which is better is just a question of taste.

[TeChameleon]

I'm not sure this necessarily has to be an 'or' question, honestly.

I'd say that for myself, I prefer the Dresden Files by a bit, but that Harry Potter is the more iconic & landmark series.

... granted, I'm also guilty of a half-finished Dresden Files/Harry Potter crossover fanfic that I really, really, really need to get back to and finish off (health issues caused a stall, which in turn caused a vicious case of writer's block :smallfrown:), so I can honestly say that I rather enjoy both (if anyone actually cares, it's entitled, naturally, "A Wizard Named Harry")

Although I still think that Voldemort was an idiot who got too far on raw magical power and (apparently) charisma.

[Rater202]

... granted, I'm also guilty of a half-finished Dresden Files/Harry Potter crossover fanfic that I really, really, really need to get back to and finish off (health issues caused a stall, which in turn caused a vicious case of writer's block :smallfrown:), so I can honestly say that I rather enjoy both (if anyone actually cares, it's entitled, naturally, "A Wizard Named Harry")

...Is it posted anywhere, and how does that even work?

I mean, utterly incompatible definitions of magic and wizard societies, so unless dimensional traveling magic is involved somehow...

[Eldan]

I've seen more than a few Dresden/Potter crossovers online, but none that went very far. I think one literally went with "Man, those British wizards are weird. They do all their magic with wand foci and never learn how to do it without."

[Traab]

...Is it posted anywhere, and how does that even work?

I mean, utterly incompatible definitions of magic and wizard societies, so unless dimensional traveling magic is involved somehow...

Nah, its not that incompatible. And its easily explained by going the whole route of different cultures learn different magic. You have wanded wizards, dresden style semi wandless wizards, shaman, witch doctors, yogis, druids, whatever. The simple solution is to just go the normal fannon route of wandless magic being something that can be learned by anyone for various reasons. Something like, "Yeah its hard to learn wandless magic, as an adult who has spent decades learning how to do it with a wand. Start off young and its surprisingly easy to pick up both."

[JNAProductions]

Changed title to HP and DF discussion. Feels more appropriate.

[Traab]

Also, the only thing stopping me from reading dresden fanfiction is that I have only just started reading Small Favor. I have several more books to go till I have caught up completely and I really dont want to bump face first into more spoilers by reading fanfics that could be taking events from lord knows how far into the series and going on from there.

[Rater202]

Nah, its not that incompatible. And its easily explained by going the whole route of different cultures learn different magic. You have wanded wizards, dresden style semi wandless wizards, shaman, witch doctors, yogis, druids, whatever. The simple solution is to just go the normal fannon route of wandless magic being something that can be learned by anyone for various reasons. Something like, "Yeah its hard to learn wandless magic, as an adult who has spent decades learning how to do it with a wand. Start off young and its surprisingly easy to pick up both."

No, it's pretty much utterly incompatible.

for one, Harry Potter Magic ignores physics and follows it's own rules, while Dresden Magic explicitly follows Physics.

For Two, HP magic can do things instantly that a Dresden Wizard would have to do as a ritual.

For three, The Laws of Magic that Dresden Wizards follow don't seem to apply to HP wizards-the only problem with killing people with magic is if you use the Killing Curse on a Human, everything else is the same as killing normally. They Mind Wipe and Confund people all the time-even the good guys, who suffer no repercussions upon themselves from using the Imperius Curse on people, Time Turners are given to schoolchildren to help them in their course work-All of those things would either irreparably stain your soul or get you a date with the chopping block if you did it in Dresden Land.

For four, the implication is that everyone in HP casts like that, and Likewise in Dresden the Implication is that all mortal practitioners follow the same basic rules with their cultures only influencing how they actually use the magic.

For Five: Magic is genetic in HP, coming from either inheritance or mutation-Rowling has even referred to it as a gene, and either you have it or you don't. In Dresden, everybody can do at least Basic Magic if they learn how, but there are degrees of Magical Power-Humans go from Minor Talents to Focused Practitioners to Sorcerers to Full Blown Wizards, and even with Wizards some are stronger than others.

Even word of Jim is that Magic in Dresden works nothing like Magic in HP.

The only way to realistically have a Crossover between the two is to either involve dimension hopping accidents to to have one or both be Massivly AU.

[Eldan]

Yeah, the mind control and time travel is the main problem. I think the usual solution is saying that HP doesn't do it, since the first is creepy and the second too easy a solution for all kinds of things anyway.

[Rater202]

Yeah, the mind control and time travel is the main problem.

And the "physics" problem


I think the usual solution is saying that HP doesn't do it, since the first is creepy and the second too easy a solution for all kinds of things anyway. And then it's not Harry Potter anymore-the memory erasing id pretty much the only way the HP wizards have managed to stay hidden so long.

[Xefas]

And then it's not Harry Potter anymore-the memory erasing id pretty much the only way the HP wizards have managed to stay hidden so long.

Amusingly, in a hypothetical situation of Hogwarts being shunted through the Nevernever into Dresden World, they wouldn't need to break the Third Law to hide their activities anymore.

Everyone would just assume they're really advanced Harry Potter cosplayers. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I did enjoy that one short fic where John Constantine was teaching defence against the dark arts.

[The Glyphstone]

I did enjoy that one short fic where John Constantine was teaching defence against the dark arts.

"See a Dark Wizard? Shoot him. Okay, class is over, I'm getting a smoke."

[Rater202]

Amusingly, in a hypothetical situation of Hogwarts being shunted through the Nevernever into Dresden World, they wouldn't need to break the Third Law to hide their activities anymore.

Everyone would just assume they're really advanced Harry Potter cosplayers. :smalltongue:

That falls under "Dimensional traveling shenanigans" which doe not require you to reconcile the magic.

I was specifically talking about fics where they're already the same world, where it's actually impossible to reconcile the magic.

[Traab]

No, it's pretty much utterly incompatible.

for one, Harry Potter Magic ignores physics and follows it's own rules, while Dresden Magic explicitly follows Physics.

For Two, HP magic can do things instantly that a Dresden Wizard would have to do as a ritual.

For three, The Laws of Magic that Dresden Wizards follow don't seem to apply to HP wizards-the only problem with killing people with magic is if you use the Killing Curse on a Human, everything else is the same as killing normally. They Mind Wipe and Confund people all the time-even the good guys, who suffer no repercussions upon themselves from using the Imperius Curse on people, Time Turners are given to schoolchildren to help them in their course work-All of those things would either irreparably stain your soul or get you a date with the chopping block if you did it in Dresden Land.

For four, the implication is that everyone in HP casts like that, and Likewise in Dresden the Implication is that all mortal practitioners follow the same basic rules with their cultures only influencing how they actually use the magic.

For Five: Magic is genetic in HP, coming from either inheritance or mutation-Rowling has even referred to it as a gene, and either you have it or you don't. In Dresden, everybody can do at least Basic Magic if they learn how, but there are degrees of Magical Power-Humans go from Minor Talents to Focused Practitioners to Sorcerers to Full Blown Wizards, and even with Wizards some are stronger than others.

Even word of Jim is that Magic in Dresden works nothing like Magic in HP.

The only way to realistically have a Crossover between the two is to either involve dimension hopping accidents to to have one or both be Massivly AU.

No its NOT utterly incompatible. Its easily handled by showing that different types of magicals are capable of different things. Most of the "doesnt follow physics" stuff is either hand wavable or easily tweaked in story. Im looking for specific examples however, as its hard to refute a generic "doesnt follow physics". but im fairly sure I could create a reason why it works in most cases. Thats one and two down, though a little backwards.

The laws of Magic in dresden verse are basically like arguing legal definitions between nations. Just because the USA doesnt allow sexual harassment doesnt mean that in iran its also illegal. Different governments for different groups of magicals mean different rules. We never get the ICW explained in the stories iirc. For all we know, dumbledoore represents his specific group of governments while the merlin or someone he chooses represents the white council's style of magical government. Once again, easy to work around. And just like how there are lots of arguments and friction between various governments in the UN over things like human rights and oppressive laws and such, the same could hold true in a unified verse where both hd and hp exist.

As for four, meh, they only talk about magical europe and even then they are clearly really really isolated from the world around them. Magical britain especially is a drastically shrinking nation that is desperately trying to convince itself that it isnt dying out rapidly. Keeping a bunch of teenagers that all have to go to the same school and receive the same government approved education means its not exactly hard to ensure they dont learn much about these other groups of magicals unless they have to for some reason. Once again, simple explanation that also makes sense. As for why dresden doesnt know about it, who says he doesnt? Why would he CARE about a group of insanely xenophobic isolationist spell casters that have absolutely no interest in anything connected to anything he is doing and who live a freaking continent away? He doesnt spend much time talking about new zealand either, does that mean the place doesnt exist in dresdenverse?

Point five. Once again easily explained. Anyone CAN learn magic, but you need a certain minimum amount to do so naturally and those tend to get snatched up in europe by the wanded casters. It could also be used to help explain why wanded casters seem to be more powerful than most dresden types. They have a larger base amount of magical power to work with. It is similar to when dresden talks about molly. She will never be a good combat caster for many reasons. Among them being that she doesnt have the raw power to use heavy combat spells. Heck, he has had to create tiny versions of his normal battle magic just to teach her some without exhausting her after a single cast. Keep in mind in still reading the series, so im unsure if this changes, dont get specific if it does. For all we know, squibs are those in the middle range. Too weak to use wanded magic, but still strong enough to learn dresden style magic and be pretty darned good at it. Its just not well known in good old britain because either A) they dont want the magical brits aware of other sources of magical training, or B) they tend to murder their squibs or at best abandon then ignore their existence, and dont know it.

Word of jim is a valid point, but one that is easily ignorable in fanfiction since, you know, it tends to do what the person writing it wants, and its so easy to justify in this case.Word of god doesnt get to shut down the option because if we followed word of god fanfiction wouldnt exist, because changing how the author sees things wouldnt be allowed.

[Gnoman]

The laws of Magic in dresden verse are basically like arguing legal definitions between nations. Just because the USA doesnt allow sexual harassment doesnt mean that in iran its also illegal. Different governments for different groups of magicals mean different rules. We never get the ICW explained in the stories iirc. For all we know, dumbledoore represents his specific group of governments while the merlin or someone he chooses represents the white council's style of magical government. Once again, easy to work around. And just like how there are lots of arguments and friction between various governments in the UN over things like human rights and oppressive laws and such, the same could hold true in a unified verse where both hd and hp exist.


Breaking the Laws Of Magic isn't a mere legal matter. Doing so damages your mind in ways that are not present in the Potterverse. The magic systems are fundamentally incompatible.

Also, the White Council is headquartered in Scotland, the same country Hogwarts is in.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah. Messing with people's minds screwed Molly up for a while (and the effects linger still). Obliviate is used like candy in HP.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah. Messing with people's minds screwed Molly up for a while (and the effects linger still). Obliviate is used like candy in HP.

Plus the warlock who got executed at the beginning of Proven Guilty, the Korean kid who had mind-melted his entire extended family into slaves. He just went outright insane.

[Traab]

And dont they kinda show damage being done in harry potter through dark magic? Im not sure how deep rowling went into it, but we do see some effects that could easily translate over. For example, ever notice how the people who use tons of dark magic are baby eating monsters that revel in pain despair and horror? (so long as it isnt theirs?) Yes harry uses the imperious, like once, and a failed attempt at a crucio, but then, dresden broke these laws of magic as well and HE isnt evil. Its a gradual thing. The more you use it, the more you want to use it, the more the damage piles up till you are a mass murdering lunatic out severing chunks of his soul in a stupid attempt to become immortal.

Its something dresden harps on a lot after becoming a grey cloak. How most of these warlocks were probably decent kids once who screwed up because they had noone to warn them or to train them, or to even point out why going into someones mind is a bad thing, even if you are only doing it to help them. By the time they got noticed it was too late and they had passed the moral event horizon. That guy who mind slaved his family? He probably started out with making them leave him alone when they annoyed him, or giving him "permission" to do stuff they wouldnt normally have allowed. Stuff that being a normal teenager he wouldnt think twice about the long term effects of. Then as he did it more and more, it twisted him more and more and he went further and further until blam, the council noticed, he was mustache twirlingly evil, and execution time.

As for Obliviate, thats a fair point. I could probably justify it by using some sort of made up crap like I have seen done before. "Using a wand helps to separate yourself from the deeply personal effects of the magic you are using. It almost works like a filter, weakening the effect it has on your soul" After all, while we know obliviators exist, we dont know things like, how long they tend to stay in the field, what they end up like long term, or if there are any known side effects to the caster. Or even try to split hairs about how intent is also key. What makes the unforgivables just that is the intent. You have to WANT your target to suffer unimagiable pain, to die, to be controlled, etc. All the wanded want is to keep their existence a secret. So the taint would be greatly lessened and further weakened by using a wand. But yeah, thats still a good sticking point. But its not an insurmountable one.

[Rater202]

Also, the White Council is headquartered in Scotland, the same country Hogwarts is in.

And he's part of a Master Apprentice Chain going back to Merlin, who was apparently a Big Deal in HP so it would be Odd if the wizards in Europe did things diferantly than Merlin.

Let's face it, you can not compare the magics

There's even a quate from Jim that something like a flying broom would probably kill a Dresden Wizard who tried it.

The only way to reconcile it is to do a massive AU for one, if not Both of the stories, and if you're gonna change that much it's not going to be Harry Potter or the Dresden Files anymore, it's gonna be "Harry X: With Special Guest Star this guy who claims to be Harry Y but isn't really."

Take Gilderoy Lockheart. If HP Magic was just a "kind" of magic, the same as Dresden Magic but done diferantly the same way that Listens-To-Winds Magic is Different from Dresden's, different traditions of the same thing, then Lockheart would have been a Dark lord at best or stark raving mad at worst by the time of Chamber of Secrets, what with all of the Memory Charms he uses, because screwing with people's heads does that to you in the Dresden System.

Potions! That's another example. In HP, Potions are a subtle art and science with complicated steps and a variable number of very specific ingredients.

In the Dresden Files, a Potion is any seven ingredients that fit a theme appropriate to the kind of potion you're making.

Edit at Traab: The People who use Dark Magic suffer no repercussions from using Dark Magic. They're evil because they're either insane or Racists pricks, and if you read Half Blood Prince Tom was a sociopath before he even knew he was magic.

Also, in the Dresden Files dark magic is like a potent drug. Use it even once and it sicks with you forever, always tempting you.

The only Dark Magic that has actual consequences are Horcruxes, which make you ugly if you make more than one of them.

[Traab]

Yes and logia powers dont exist in naruto either, that doesnt mean you cant have a cross over with one piece as them being in the same universe. (Sound of a Jinchuuriki being a good example) Any fanfiction you want to write is going to run into issues of "but it doesnt work that way!" somewhere along the line. In this case its two styles of magic that are close enough, though obviously not identical. At the very least you can thread it together with enough fridge logic to make it work. Yes there are holes in trying to join the two together that need to be patched, but there are holes in harry potter all by itself! That doesnt invalidate the story though.

*EDIT* Yeah, and tom was a mind controller before he knew he was a wizard, remember? He took pleasure in making them do things, in making bad things happen to his fellow orphans, in making them hurt.

[Rater202]

Yes and logia powers dont exist in naruto either, that doesnt mean you cant have a cross over with one piece as them being in the same universe.

Here's the difference: Devil's Fruit are not Chakra. They are not Ninja Tricks, they are not special techniques.

They do not contradict the Naruto Setting in anyway shape or form, so you can go ahead and plop them in with minimal effort.

Hell, considering Chakra comes from the Fruit of the Shinju, they're even thematically appropriate to be plopped into Naruto.

Magic in the Dresden Files is magic. Magic in Harry Potter is magic. Magic in one setting is completely different from magic in the other. You can not call two completely different things by the same name. Magic in both settings is utterly incompatible with the other, thus, you can not have both because they contradict each other.

So, if you want a crossover, you're option is to AU the Hell out of one of them, to the point where it's not really Harry X anymore, or you can use dimension jumping crap,and then you don't have to anymore. There is no "close enough to thread together" here.

Other differences: No Sight in HP, no Soul Gazes in HP(and Harry has had plenty of people look him in the eye), Soul Damage is only caused by Murder in HP and is permanent unless you feel remorse, meanwhile Dresden uses pieces of his soul as ammo later in the series and it regenerates on it's own over time.

[Traab]

That last point is a guess at best. Noone ever comes out and says that the only way to damage your soul is to make horcruxes. They just describe what making one does to you. They do however go into how the unforgivables work, and all the talk about how you have to want the horrible thing to happen is, to me, close enough to make it work. If dark magic was really harmless to the person casting it in the hp universe, why would it be specifically forbidden and hated? There has to be a reason why mind control, torture, and a curse that can be used for nothing but killing are so forbidden. Especially when there are spells than can do similar things that arent. Compulsions are not life sentence in harry potter land, but direct mind control is. Once again, this leads back into one of my more ropey justifications, that the taint these spells have on your soul is somehow lessened through wanded magic. Therefore only the really big bad ones like those three are utterly forbidden because the taint is just so bad on them that it cant help but twist the caster over time.

Soul Gazes no, but Sight? Eh, you could probably argue that they dont need it as they have various spells that let them see magic, or through illusions or whatever else you can think of. So once again, an argument could be made that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because they dont mention it doesnt mean it cant exist. Look, im not saying the magic systems are the same, they clearly arent. Im just pointing out that you can patch the holes decently enough to get by with them unless you run into someone obsessed with digging as deep into the minutia as possible.

[Rater202]

Eh, you could probably argue that they dont need it as they have various spells that let them see magic, or through illusions

Why would they invent those Spells if they had the Sight, which is, if I may remind you, an inherent ability of all Wizards in DF? Why invent a spell to do something you can already do?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, no. But if your only argument is "they haven't explicitly said it doen'st exist" than yo're gonna lose the argument.

I also didn't say that Horcruxes were the only way to damage your soul.

In order to make a horcrux, you have to damage your soul first. This is canon.

In order to damage your soul, you have to murder someone in cold blood. This is Also Canon. This is also what I actually said.

In order to rejoin the severed parts of your soul, you must feel total and utter remorse. This is canon.

If there was another way to split your soul, then it would have been mentioned, because that's a pretty freaking obvious thing to mention.

Splitting your soul is evil and unnatural, also canon.

Compared tot he Dresden Files, where the Main character eventually gains the ability to rip out pieces of his soul and use them as Ammo like it's not even a thing, it regenerates over time, and it's considered Holy magic.

[Traab]

Why would they invent those Spells if they had the Sight, which is, if I may remind you, an inherent ability of all Wizards in DF? Why invent a spell to do something you can already do?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, no. But if your only argument is "they haven't explicitly said it doen'st exist" than yo're gonna lose the argument.

Like the Sight.

I also didn't say that Horcruxes were the only way to damage your soul.

In order to make a horcrux, you have to damage your soul first. This is canon.

In order to damage your soul, you have to murder someone in cold blood. This is Also Canon. This is also what I actually said

If there was another way to do it, then they would have said so, because that's one of the really obvious things to mention.

Im pretty sure they dont say that murder is the only way to split your soul, just that its the way that is used by voldemort, and to explain why a chunk of his soul was able to attach itself to harry in the first place (ignoring the massive plot hole of his mothers protection as thats another can of worms entirely) I think the phrase was something like, "Such as killing someone in cold blood, a total innocent" blah blah blah. Point being that it was an example, not the ONLY example. And why would they mention other ways since they have nothing to do with the plot? The whole point was to explain what went on that night that set these events in motion. There was no reason to go into a dissertation on the 1001 ways you could damage your soul besides cold blooded murder.

And finally, "She would have said so" is not an argument that can be used seriously when talking about an author that shows her inability to do math, or even the slightest of fact checking on things like days of the year, and thats just for starters. Her entire story is filled with holes, shaky justifications, and patches applied after the fact to explain things that didnt make sense. Its a good series, it is NOT a good example of world building. Its incomplete and at several points somewhat contradictory.

[Rater202]

"By an act of evil — the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: he would encase the torn portion..."

Exact quote from when Slughorn explains what a Horcrux is, prompted by Tom asking how one splits their soul.
To split your soul, it has to be murdern.

Note the "the supreme" which implies a singular path to which something could be done.

[TeChameleon]

... ooookay, didn't really expect that strong a response to my offhanded mention of a half-finished fic O.o

The fic in question can be found here (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8902388/1/A-Wizard-Named-Harry) with the warning that while I do want to finish it (and yes, I know how long it's been :smallfrown:), I'm not sure when that will happen courtesy of life being, well, life.

To answer the questions that have come up: I consider the two magic styles to be functionally incompatible precisely because of the Laws of Magic thing from the Dresdenverse (and also the fact that there are a surprising number of things that are advanced magic in one universe and beginner in the other, and vice versa...). The laws of physics thing was one that I hadn't really considered, but is a good point. So I used dimension hopping shenanigans (via the Nevernever from the Dresdenverse, which canonically contains other fictional worlds).

Basic fic info: Dresden gets dumped into Potter's head and winds up 'being' him... complete with his (incomplete due to it being a while since he read them, and also a bit muddled due to having watched the movies as well, but still functional) knowledge of the Harry Potter series. Happens near the end of Chapter 6 of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone in the Potterverse timeline, and in the year between Turn Coat and Changes in the Dresdenverse timeline.

[Traab]

Exact quote from when Slughorn explains what a Horcrux is, prompted by Tom asking how one splits their soul.
To split your soul, it has to be murdern.

Note the "the supreme" which implies a singular path to which something could be done.

Ok, so I remembered the quote wrong. I do find it interesting that his quote meshes rather well with the first law of dresden magic though. Thou shalt not kill humans with magic (or we will kill you with a freaking sword) The supreme act of evil is also the first thing outright forbidden in dresdens universe, and for pretty similar reasons. Huge act of evil that causes some serious long term damage to the caster. Now, the soul thing growing back is a sticking point. Hmm, did they ever specify that voldemort doesnt have a soul anymore? Or even confirm in some way that he only had a tiny portion left? Destroying his horcruxes didnt destroy his soul (it did those portions, which is also why they all looked different, since they were made at different times) what it did was destroy his anchors so his soul would pass over like everyone elses when he was finally killed for the last time. They said that until voldy noone had ever tried to split their soul multiple times, and voldemort picked 7 because its a powerful magical number, not because its a hard and fast limit necessarily.

I still maintain that there is a lot of overlap and the rest can be jammed together into a faintly logical whole overall, but I doubt either of us are going to change our minds at this point.

[Rater202]

In the Dresdenverse you can kill all you want as long as you don't kill a human with magic.

Edit: It's heavily implied that the reason Tom is so ugly is because he's mutilated his soul beyond repair.

[Traab]

In the Dresdenverse you can kill all you want as long as you don't kill a human with magic.

Edit: It's heavily implied that the reason Tom is so ugly is because he's mutilated his soul beyond repair.

Heh, it just came to mind, awhile back I read a hp story that included dresden magic and magic circuits from fate/stay night. All magic systems existed, each was under the authority of their respective governing bodies, and harry was trying to figure out ways to gain access to all the magic systems himself. Has little to do with the topic at hand, it was just an interesting setup that I wish I could remember the name of so I could review how they made it work. I think he was trying to get them all because each had its strengths and weaknesses, but making them work together was a work in progress, I dunno.