Beating a lv 15 wizard

[treecko]

So I was talking to a friend about 3.5 and he said that a lv 15 wizard could beat pretty much any party of mundanes with no magic items. I would think this would be incorrect, but I've never played 3.5, so I don't know. So help me GiTP, what party of 4 mundanes could beat a wizard?

Mundanes have no magic items.
Wizard is fairly generic, but the the party should be able counter all common wizard tactics (invisibility, flying, mind control, summoning, etc).
For terrain, I'll arbitrarily say a forest. The wizard and the party enter, knowing they must battle each other, but know where each other.

Thanks!

EDIT: Party of 4, all lv 15

[JNAProductions]

You're new to 3.5 on GitP, aren'tcha?

Subscribing, because this will be fun!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So I was talking to a friend about 3.5 and he said that a lv 15 wizard could beat pretty much any party of mundanes with no magic items. I would think this would be incorrect, but I've never played 3.5, so I don't know. So help me GiTP, what party of 4 mundanes could beat a wizard?

Mundanes have no magic items.
Wizard is fairly generic, but the the party should be able counter all common wizard tactics (invisibility, flying, mind control, summoning, etc).
For terrain, I'll arbitrarily say a forest. The wizard and the party enter, knowing they must battle each other, but know where each other.

Thanks!Well, considering the best a level 1,000 monk with level 20 WBL could do to a level 20 wizard was a stalemate... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?218989-Wizard-20-versus-Monk-1000)

I mean, there ARE ways to take a wizard down regardless of defenses, but they're really obscure. The Lucid Dreaming skill, for instance, can hit the wizard while he's sleeping, drag his mind into the Dreamheart, and leave him there. And if he doesn't also have Lucid Dreaming pumped up, I'm pretty sure he can't escape. But that's the only "mundane" way I can think of to do it, if the wizard is properly paranoid.

[AvatarVecna]

So I was talking to a friend about 3.5 and he said that a lv 15 wizard could beat pretty much any party of mundanes with no magic items. I would think this would be incorrect, but I've never played 3.5, so I don't know. So help me GiTP, what party of 4 mundanes could beat a wizard?

Mundanes have no magic items.
Wizard is fairly generic, but the the party should be able counter all common wizard tactics (invisibility, flying, mind control, summoning, etc).
For terrain, I'll arbitrarily say a forest. The wizard and the party enter, knowing they must battle each other, but know where each other.

Thanks!

Beating a level 15 wizard without magic/items can be done...but not because mundanes can be awesome enough (beyond BS builds, of course); a wizard who's prepared spells cannot handle the party is a wizard who is going to get his ass kicked...but a wizard who has not prepared for the possibility that he doesn't have the right spells to fight the party should be prepared enough to teleport away and come back to the fight when he's scry'd all their weaknesses and prepared his spells accordingly.

EDIT: Now, if the wizard is prepared to use magic to cheat his mundane enemies out of a proper fight, and they don't have a way to even slightly mitigate this, they're basically screwed.

[eggynack]

This situation sounds very wizard-favorable overall. I'm not sure it's 100% odds of wizard success, but it's not too far off. I think the best bet on the mundane side would be an ultra-stealth character, particularly because the next best bet, the ubercharger, doesn't work too well when the ubercharger can't count on the possibility of initiative. Even that technique has plenty of workarounds, including just, y'know, being really hard to hit, but it's close to slight viability. In any case, while some arbitrary wizard would have below 100% odds, it's likely possible to design a wizard that would have a 100% success rate against four fully mundane opponents.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This situation sounds very wizard-favorable overall. I'm not sure it's 100% odds of wizard success, but it's not too far off. I think the best bet on the mundane side would be an ultra-stealth character, particularly because the next best bet, the ubercharger, doesn't work too well when the ubercharger can't count on the possibility of initiative. Even that technique has plenty of workarounds, including just, y'know, being really hard to hit, but it's close to slight viability. In any case, while some arbitrary wizard would have below 100% odds, it's likely possible to design a wizard that would have a 100% success rate against four fully mundane opponents.A sneakster with a thinaun weapon might be able to, even if the wizard is an astral projection, assuming the astral form getting ganked counts as "dying" and the "wizard" isn't actually just a remotely mind controlled drone, or something.

[Garktz]

You actually think your friend is correct.
He said, the wizard can "pretty much" beat any 4 man mundane party, so the moment you need to come here so the playground gives you a party to beat him, he.s right and can beat almost any other party...

[Malroth]

Beginner level no optimization on both parties it's about a 50/50% the odds are the wizard PROBABLY has something really useful that sounded cool in his spells list and the odds that all of it is useless grows increasingly tiny as the levels increase and the odds that the wizard wins entirely by accident is pretty high even if he's not properly prepared.

Normal level Pratical Optimization. 80% wizard/20% mundane assuming both parties know their stuff the odds the wizard is off guard is pretty low but they can make mistakes and sometimes forget either windwall or anti Ubercharger counters. The mundanes have to be well cordinated and play at the very top of their game to stand a chance but defeating a similiarly optimized wizard is possible.

Board level Theoretical Optimization 0% chance of defeating the wizard's Summon/Clone/Mind controlled minion 0% chance of meeting or finding the actual wizard 0% chance of surviving your initial preparations with ability to think about opposing wizard intact. Wizards have some scary powerful stuff and spontaneous divination and contact other plane means Shrodingers Wizard is a Real thing, He knows when you are sleeping he knows when you're awake he knows if you've been bad or good and has many many many options to stop threats cold before they are threats, he can be immune to all weaponry 24/7, can fight you from outside the Universe and call forth infinite reinforcements augmented by infinite amounts of magical gear, Nothing absolutely Nothing a mundane does matters at this level of play.

[Thurbane]

A group of level 15 "mundanes" is indeed going to have an extremely difficult time beating a level 15 wizard without using magic items.

Best option is probably minionmancy through Leadership, Handle Animal etc. but even that is going to be very tough without breaking the spirit of the challenge (i.e. PCs might Diplomacy a Balor or Pit Fiend into assisting them).

How mundane is mundane? Do Binders, Warlocks, DFAs or Factotums count?

[Beheld]

A Level 15 Wizard can be hanging out in a Fortress on the moon while sending 150 Pit Fiends and 300 Glabrezus to kill the mundanes guided in their Greater Teleports by his Greater Scryings.

So... Yeah, he can pretty much beat a party of mundanes.

[eggynack]

A sneakster with a thinaun weapon might be able to, even if the wizard is an astral projection, assuming the astral form getting ganked counts as "dying" and the "wizard" isn't actually just a remotely mind controlled drone, or something.
I don't think the party has any shot at all if the wizard's allowed to be at a distance. Yeah, they can beat a couple of distance tricks, maybe, but there's a bunch that they're very unlikely to have a defense against.

A Level 15 Wizard can be hanging out in a Fortress on the moon while sending 150 Pit Fiends and 300 Glabrezus to kill the mundanes guided in their Greater Teleports by his Greater Scryings.

So... Yeah, he can pretty much beat a party of mundanes.
Yeah, the underlying truth of it is that you need to put a bunch of stipulations on the fight in order for it to be plausible for the mundanes to win. Without stipulations, like an inability to leave the arena, the wizard's chances of victory are a straight 100%. Given that your friend didn't put any stipulations on the fight like the ones you put down in the OP, it seems impossible for there to be mundane success.

[OldTrees1]

The word mundane is nebulous. Expect anything that the guy at the gym can't do that contributes towards a victory against the expected defenses (freedom of movement, overland flight, protection from arrows, mindblank, & contingent teleport) will be ruled as not mundane.

So the best showing I can think of is catapults/siege weapons. They would require the wizard to apply total cover or use control weather.

[ryu]

The word mundane is nebulous. Expect anything that the guy at the gym can't do that contributes towards a victory against the expected defenses (freedom of movement, overland flight, protection from arrows, mindblank, & contingent teleport) will be ruled as not mundane.

So the best showing I can think of is catapults/siege weapons. They would require the wizard to apply total cover or use control weather.

Eh. Tower shields are cheap.

[OldTrees1]

Eh. Tower shields are cheap.

Tower shields (20hp, 5 hardness) survive only 1-2 hits from a catapult(4d6-6d6) on average. So the wizard would have to pull out Control Winds to get it up to Tornado wind speeds(or a similar means, or a form of total cover that survives the damage)

[ATHATH]

The Wizard uses Celerity, then a scroll of Timestop. He then lays 20 or so Delayed Blast Fireballs at the feet of the mundane party that tried to harm him, Greater Teleports away (just in case), and Scries on the opposing party, to ensure that they have died a horrible, explosive death. His Astral Projection then Plane Shifts to wherever the opposing party went when they died, and annihilates their souls. He has all of these spells prepared because he's used copious amounts of cleverly worded divinations earlier to determine what any threats to his safety are, when they will try to harm him, how they will try to harm him, and how to defeat them.

Alternatively, he'a gone down the route of Pun-Pun and has achieved omnipotence.

[ryu]

Tower shields (20hp, 5 hardness) survive only 1-2 hits from a catapult(4d6-6d6) on average. So the wizard would have to pull out Control Winds to get it up to Tornado wind speeds(or a similar means, or a form of total cover that survives the damage)

Yeah.... Assuming you can find the wizard. He has total cover and thus can hide freely. All of his possessions also have the benefit of being hidden this way. And do keep in mind the distance at play. Good luck even finding your mark.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your friend is right. Even at very basic levels of optimization (zero optimization is literally selecting options at random) a wizard prepared for a fight will crush pretty much anthing a non-caster with no magic items can put forward.

More importantly; a party of 15th level anything; mundane, magical, or in between; absolutely should not be without magic items. One of the basic assumptions of the game is that adventurers aquire magic items, with what some woud consider stunning frequency, such that the worth of those items shoud approximate a benchmark set in the DMG on page 135, namely: wealth by level. The expectation that such magic items will be available is one of the things around which the game's balance was built (the ultimate results of such not withstanding). Ignoring this is one of those basic mistakes that a lot of newb DM's and grognards who refuse to accept it frequently make.

Don't misunderstand; there's nothing wrong with wanting to play without heavy use of magic items and it can be done, but doing it well requires understanding the roots of the system so that you can adjust them without breaking the game.

With appropriate WBL, a bit of prep' work, and being spec'ed for it, a party with no casters -can- win against equivalent level casters but it's no mean feat even then. Even moreso at levels 17 and up. Without any one of these elements, a caster that knows what he's doing is nigh-insurmountable without a caster on your side.

[Malroth]

I think the biggest problem is the assumption you made "can counter common wizard tactics summoning/invisibility/mind control". The counter you speak of is "bring your own magic user" and is in fact the dividing line between "magic user" and "mundane". Semi casting classes like Ranger Paladin and Bard get some counters in the form of their spell lists, Non casters like the Fighter Monk and Barbarian do not. Rogues usually can counter some of these things but mostly by their ability to use magic item types normally restricted to casters and function worse than the other non-casters in their absence. Martial Adepts and Meldshapers have their own toolsets that counter some of the common wizard tactics but they have far more in common with casters than they do with mundanes.

[Yahzi]

Mundanes have no magic items.
Mundanes without magic items can't beat any 15th level encounter. They can't even beat a CR 3 Shadow. No way they can beat a 15th lvl wizard.

[Mrs Kat]

EDIT: sorry, was approaching the problem more generally than "In a forest, wizard knows there are people who are going to attack him". I think most of my points stand, and this scenario adds the option of "the party hide while the wizard starves to death".

There are a few ways I can think of around this.


Disguise or Hide in plain sight with poison.

Wizards get many ways of seeing invisible creatures, and seeing creatures who are magically disguised. However, most of these (True seeing etc) do not allow the caster to see past mundane disguises, or to see someone who is simply out-of sight. Having no magical equipment is an advantage here, as a simple detect magic or arcane sight no longer allows the wizard to discern the location of the mundanes.

A cunning rogue might infiltrate a wizard's servants, and poison the wizard without too much difficulty. Wizards do have access to detect poison, so the poisoner should observe the wizard closely to determine when he is scanning his food and drink for poison. Perhaps he scans his supper, but not his breakfast. Perhaps he scans all his meals, but leaves a cup of tea unattended in his lab. Wizards generally have poor fortitude saves, and many poisons will take a wizard out with the initial damage before he has time to polymorph into something or summon a horde of angels.

If the wizard is not particularly paranoid, new options open up. A wizard sleeping unprotected might be suffocated with a pillow, or a wizard not expecting to be assaulted might be hugged to death by an angry half-orc (who has levels in occult slayer).


Lies.

"Mr Wizard! That other wizard over yonder is plotting to kill you!"
Setting wizards against other wizards is one of the easiest ways of killing them.

"The King needs your help!"
If there are no suitable enemy wizards available, the wizard might be convinced to undertake a great work of research, sacrificing many of his spell slots every day towards some predefined arcane goal. If your mundanes are cunning, they might manufacture a growing crisis (such as an impending war) in order to create a sense of urgency. Setting the wizard dungeon-crawling is another alternative, sapping his spell slots and leaving him in a depleted state. The much weakened wizard may then be dispatched via poison, warm hugs, or giant megapede loose in the lab.

"Don't worry. I will protect you."
A sufficiently skilled mundane might pose as a powerful benefactor and put a wizard enough at ease that he neglects his magical defenses.

"I have it on good authority that disjoining artifacts increases your magical puissance."
Disguising yourself as a knowledgeable wizard and making social checks in the hopes of making the wizard do something idiotic is another viable option if your bluff and diplomacy are high enough.

Seduction is another viable option, but it depends upon a party member being willing to "take one for the team" and no small amount of DM fiat.




When magic items become available to the mundanes, the options open up further as use of UMD and antimagic field allow for less subtle tactics.

EDIT2: tactics specific to the scenario


Approach the wizard directly. Tell him you are from [whatever agency set up this death match]. You are his backup.
Overegg the threat of the supposed assailants. He can't scry them? Must be mindblanked. Those guys sound dangerous. Good thing you have us here.
Disguise trees/shrubs/rocks/animals as assailants, watch the wizard fail his spot check and burn his immediate action spells. Repeat until he stops using panic spells.
Make sure one of you has enough Knowledge(Arcana) to know what the wizard's full complement of spells is. Maybe use diplomacy/sense motive to check when he's out.
Make sure you all have pierce magical protection/pierce magical concealment and mage slayer to stop him casting defensively. He can't immediate action teleport more than once in the round, and none if he's flat footed.
Attack in the surprise round with poisoned weapons. So many poison saves.
Barring DM fiat, he dead.

[Malroth]

Yeah no none of those will work. Besides being able to be flat out immune to physical damage and poison, simply deciding to go home is a win for Mr wizard, He can be eating in a restraunt in a planar metropolis within 2 rounds and be back to the forest with recharged spells in 2 hours so starvation isn't anything that's happening to him any time ever even assuming he still needs to eat which many wizards gave up by lv 3.

1) A wizards has dozens of methods of creating 100% perfectly loyal servants in any form he wishes capable of being commanded with a thought and be unmistakable to any disguise or infiltration technique so no amount of bluffing is going to pass the rogue off as a arcane marked golem or a bound Djinn or a JuJu zombie or anything else the wizard has had access to for over 10 levels, Mages have also had access to completely unassailable extra-dimensional sleeping spaces for 10 levels as well so stabbing him in his sleep is impossible without Disjunction or Wish

2) The wizard has already been operating under the assumption that the other wizard has been planning on killing him for decades, Royal duties are far benieth a lv 15 caster and any research duties are the perview of the apprentice/simulacrum/bound djinn/homonculous/familiar and as for protection, He's a lv 15 wizard, he's seen every form of physical might fail before planning and stratagey thousands of times already and your presence will only confirm his suspicion.

as for your scenario, why is the wizard unable to scry? Mindblank might prevent divination spells but it's specificaly outside the rules of "mundanes with no magic items"

[Mystral]

So I was talking to a friend about 3.5 and he said that a lv 15 wizard could beat pretty much any party of mundanes with no magic items. I would think this would be incorrect, but I've never played 3.5, so I don't know. So help me GiTP, what party of 4 mundanes could beat a wizard?

Mundanes have no magic items.
Wizard is fairly generic, but the the party should be able counter all common wizard tactics (invisibility, flying, mind control, summoning, etc).
For terrain, I'll arbitrarily say a forest. The wizard and the party enter, knowing they must battle each other, but know where each other.

Thanks!

EDIT: Party of 4, all lv 15

I suggest stabbing him in his sleep. A lot.

[Mrs Kat]

Yeah no none of those will work. Besides being able to be flat out immune to physical damage and poison, simply deciding to go home is a win for Mr wizard, He can be eating in a restraunt in a planar metropolis within 2 rounds and be back to the forest with recharged spells in 2 hours so starvation isn't anything that's happening to him any time ever even assuming he still needs to eat which many wizards gave up by lv 3.

How is the wizard continuously immune to poison and physical damage? Show your working.

I assumed that staying within the forest was a parameter of the scenario. Otherwise your point is valid.

Your counterpoints for 1 and 2 depend heavily on the personality and background of the wizard and world in question. There are many reasons a wizard might have mortal retainers (fashion, tradition, and company, to name but three), and I think that on the balance it would be rare for a wizard to have only supernatural bound retainers.

Most 15th level wizards I know have a team of adventurers at least.




as for your scenario, why is the wizard unable to scry? Mindblank might prevent divination spells but it's specificaly outside the rules of "mundanes with no magic items"

In the text of scry, the wizard must have some connection to a creature he has no knowledge of in order to scry him. As a DM, I would rule that he must have some knowledge of the party in order to scry them.

If he could scry them, scry is still vulnerable to mundane hide checks, which cannot be bypassed with True seeing or Arcane Sight.

[Beheld]

How is the wizard continuously immune to poison and physical damage? Show your working.

Poison: Literally anything. Off the top of my head, Extended Elemental Body Air gives 100ft fly speed, immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits (and therefore precision damage), and flanking. For a duration of between 30 and 44 hours depending on how much work the Wizard puts into Caster level.

Physical Damage: 1) Not leaving your personal demiplane at all.
2) Not leaving your personal demiplane at all, except when you are under the effects of Superior Invisibility. (Hard to do physical damage to things you don't know are there.)
3) As above, but be an Incantatrix and always be under the effects of Superior Invis, Ironguard, Ghostform, and whatever 47 other spells you want at all times.
4) Boost your AC to something nonsense high through assorted Defending weapons, spells, polymorph into high dex and natural armor form, ect.


I assumed that staying within the forest was a parameter of the scenario. Otherwise your point is valid.

Why would that be part of the parameters. Frankly, as a level 15 Wizard, very few things would benefit from my actual physical presence when I could instead send a Legion of CR 20 Devils to do it for me.

[Mrs Kat]

Off the top of my head, Extended Elemental Body Air gives 100ft fly speed, immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits (and therefore precision damage), and flanking. For a duration of between 30 and 44 hours depending on how much work the Wizard puts into Caster level.

Ok, I'll give you that one. Not seen it on a loadout before, but it's a legitimate use of an eighth slot.

[ben-zayb]

I could've sworn there was already a thread like this a month or two ago. My mundane-based advice is the same: use either Diplomancy or Leadership to get another T1/T2 on your side.


Ok, I'll give you that one. Not seen it on a loadout before, but it's a legitimate use of an eighth slot.

Of course, it is arguably the best 7th level standalone all-day buff.

[Beheld]

Ok, I'll give you that one. Not seen it on a loadout before, but it's a legitimate use of an eighth slot.

Actually, it's a legitimate use of zero spell slots. Because you cast it on a day where you aren't doing anything, and then after you rest for 8 hours and prepare spells for one hour, you have between 21 and 35 hours of duration left.

Just like you do the same thing with extended Superior Resistance, Extended Energy Immunity (Acid, Cold, Electricity), and so forth.

[Malroth]

Now if this scenairo did not have the "no magical gear" clause this would be a whole different ballgame, the rogue squad could use scrolls of divination to find out when he's sleeping. Planar bind scroll an Efreet for unblockable Wish based transportation into the Wizards lair and kill him off with a +5 Thininium Spellstoring dagger with a Disjunction inside. This however would not count as beating him via mundane means but by using their wealth to become a better Wizard.

[Beheld]

Now if this scenairo did not have the "no magical gear" clause this would be a whole different ballgame, the rogue squad could use scrolls of divination to find out when he's sleeping. Planar bind scroll an Efreet for unblockable Wish based transportation into the Wizards lair and kill him off with a +5 Thininium Spellstoring dagger with a Disjunction inside. This however would not count as beating him via mundane means but by using their wealth to become a better Wizard.

It... isn't even that. If a level 15 Wizard doesn't have Mindblank, he deserves what he gets.

[LokeyITP]

You can read the OP as the wizard doesn't have magical stuff either. Doesn't change things unless you count spells learned on level-up as magical things (I forget which way the books tend to go on this--as long as the wizard gets 30 spells + cantrips, he's good).

Wish based teleport is hard to defend against, it's why wizards eat the xp cost to put their enemies where they want them :)

[Beheld]

Wish based teleport is hard to defend against, it's why wizards eat the xp cost to put their enemies where they want them :)

Wish based teleport is super undefined. The actual text is "Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."

Some people believe that "regardless of local conditions" means you can teleport people into lava and walls and stuff (I think for the most part everyone agrees this is true). Some people believe it means you can teleport people into Dead Magic Planes while they are inside a Dimensional Lock. I personally don't believe the second one, but even if you did, you can wear Dimensional Shackles and that's not a "local condition" and if you are in an unhallow location that casts Dimensional Anchor on you, that's also not a local condition stopping you.

Some people go further, to claim that "one creature per caster level" means "Transport Traveler Wish is the most powerful Divination effect in the game" such that you can Wish for "The King's Murdered to be transported to here" to figure out who it was, or, because Wish isn't a Divination effect, you can wish for "The Wizard who spent 64 Pit Fiends to beat me up" and just get that guy.

I am... highly skeptical... of those claimed wish methods.

[Albions_Angel]

Look OP. Im gunna say something that I only can because this forum doesnt have a downvote mechanic. People here assume a high level of optimization in hypothetical situations. Most people who comment on these threads have such a huge knowledge of the game that what they consider "low op" is still LEAGUES above the average game. And in that situation, core, expansions, third party, dragon magazine, the wizard ALWAYS wins. If your friend is approaching it from that angle, he is OBJECTIVELY right.

Here is your angle. ALMOST NO GAME IS PLAYED THAT WAY. You show me a game where someone plays a god wizard, Ill show you 50 where the DM chucks them out for being a spoil sport, and 100 more where the wizard is the weakest party member. And by that, I mean making the wrong spell choices, hanging on to their spells for fear of wasting them, not being given down time, no additional spells, the list goes on.

So, the question. Can a group of 4 mundanes (lets assume a rough group of 1 barb, 2 fighters and a rogue, seems fairly typical) take a level 15 wiz in a NORMAL game?

Well, the answer is probably still no. You have said no magic items. Magic items in 3.5 are everywhere. There is an economy. This isnt 5th. That said...

What if its a group of 5. The wizard and those 4 mundanes. And they come across some treasure that the wizard wants to do something with. So there they are, wandering along, and the 4 mundanes strike. Sorry mr Wiz. Game over for you in the vast majority of games. That wizard is down under 400 points of damage in the surprise round. There aint no coming back from that (well, there is, its 3.5, but you get the point).

If the wizard knows you are coming, you are toast. If he doesnt and you have to cross a distance to get to him, you are probably still toast. But if you DO get to him, most wizards in most games are down to their already running spells, which buff their ac to high heaven and give miss chances. Luckily for you, mundanes at 15th level do a lot of hits per round, can hit high AC, and when they do connect, will shred the wiz.

I repeat. This only works in normal games. Just one person from this forum at a table and the rules change. Sorry, thats just how it is.

I should probably give an honorable mention to Tome of Battle. Wanna do the same thing in "slightly better than average games"? ToB will do it for you. Also, oddly enough, give Truenamer, Binder and Psions a look. Technically none of those are magical, and even with the broken DC scaling of Truenamer, they might make effective mage hunters if leveled the right way...

Now I need to go hide because this forum will be yelling at me for several days.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Look OP. Im gunna say something that I only can because this forum doesnt have a downvote mechanic. People here assume a high level of optimization in hypothetical situations. Most people who comment on these threads have such a huge knowledge of the game that what they consider "low op" is still LEAGUES above the average game. And in that situation, core, expansions, third party, dragon magazine, the wizard ALWAYS wins. If your friend is approaching it from that angle, he is OBJECTIVELY right.

Here is your angle. ALMOST NO GAME IS PLAYED THAT WAY. You show me a game where someone plays a god wizard, Ill show you 50 where the DM chucks them out for being a spoil sport, and 100 more where the wizard is the weakest party member. And by that, I mean making the wrong spell choices, hanging on to their spells for fear of wasting them, not being given down time, no additional spells, the list goes on.

So, the question. Can a group of 4 mundanes (lets assume a rough group of 1 barb, 2 fighters and a rogue, seems fairly typical) take a level 15 wiz in a NORMAL game?

Well, the answer is probably still no. You have said no magic items. Magic items in 3.5 are everywhere. There is an economy. This isnt 5th. That said...

What if its a group of 5. The wizard and those 4 mundanes. And they come across some treasure that the wizard wants to do something with. So there they are, wandering along, and the 4 mundanes strike. Sorry mr Wiz. Game over for you in the vast majority of games. That wizard is down under 400 points of damage in the surprise round. There aint no coming back from that (well, there is, its 3.5, but you get the point).

If the wizard knows you are coming, you are toast. If he doesnt and you have to cross a distance to get to him, you are probably still toast. But if you DO get to him, most wizards in most games are down to their already running spells, which buff their ac to high heaven and give miss chances. Luckily for you, mundanes at 15th level do a lot of hits per round, can hit high AC, and when they do connect, will shred the wiz.

I repeat. This only works in normal games. Just one person from this forum at a table and the rules change. Sorry, thats just how it is.

I should probably give an honorable mention to Tome of Battle. Wanna do the same thing in "slightly better than average games"? ToB will do it for you. Also, oddly enough, give Truenamer, Binder and Psions a look. Technically none of those are magical, and even with the broken DC scaling of Truenamer, they might make effective mage hunters if leveled the right way...

Now I need to go hide because this forum will be yelling at me for several days.

Nope. Core only (ick) has the most broadly abusable spells in the game including the extremely egegious contingency. Your scenario is utterly shut-down by a contigent resilient sphere (CL 7to prevent catching anyone else) to protect him while he polymorphs into a hydra and then proceeds to shred the mundanes when the sphere drops. If he's feeling generous, he'll give them the full 7 minutes as a head start to flee. If not, he casts; in order; fly, dim door, polymorph and then attacks immediately.

This is available at level 11 to make it an absolute no-win for the mundanes. Two spells to completely shut down the non-caster side of the scenario, both core, and with no other buffs in place; contingency and resilient sphere. This is a fairly minimal amount of optimization. It's literally using two spells for really obviously applications. Any newb has a very real chance of stumbling into this combo just by reading through the spell section of the PHB.

It gets better the lower you go in level but that's a fairly low bar for a minimum, "the non-casters can't win," level of competence.

[AvatarVecna]

Nope. Core only (ick) has the most broadly abusable spells in the game including the extremely egegious contingency. Your scenario is utterly shut-down by a contigent resilient sphere (CL 7to prevent catching anyone else) to protect him while he polymorphs into a hydra and then proceeds to shred the mundanes when the sphere drops. If he's feeling generous, he'll give them the full 7 minutes as a head start to flee. If not, he casts; in order; fly, dim door, polymorph and then attacks immediately.

This is available at level 11 to make it an absolute no-win for the mundanes. Two spells to completely shut down the non-caster side of the scenario, both core, and with no other buffs in place; contingency and resilient sphere. This is a fairly minimal amount of optimization. It's literally using two spells for really obviously applications. Any newb has a very real chance of stumbling into this combo just by reading through the spell section of the PHB.

It gets better the lower you go in level but that's a fairly low bar for a minimum, "the non-casters can't win," level of competence.

Seconding Kelb; Core has some of the most broken stuff in the game, because it was designed when the writers knew the least about balance. A 15th lvl wizard without a Contingency is a dead wizard even in a low-op game (hell, we've even seen it in OOTS), and a 15th lvl Wizard is high enough level that his Contingency could be Teleport. The char-op level of the wizard is important, I'll grant you, but the difference between casters and non-casters is that non-casters have to work to really break the game (such as thrown weapon builds that can reliably make 30+ attacks per round against Touch AC and dealing Con damage, Swift Hunters that can kill the Tarrasque in one round, fast-flying uberchargers, and so on), while casters can break the game if they even half-try, or even just by accident (Polymorph: X-headed Pyro-/Cyro-hydra is a Core-only option that lets you outdamage most low-/mid-op non-casters in the DPR department, even when they have good splat support).

The lower-op the Wizard is, the better chance the non-casters have. The lower level the wizard is, the better chance the non-casters have. But the one fact, the one single factor, that will make a difference in this fight is this: if the wizard is prepared, in any way, to be attacked (even if that preparation is absolutely no spells other than Contingency: Teleport), the wizard will win, because he can teleport away and come back tomorrow with a full allotment of combat spells, ready to lay the smackdown. Sure, you could set a time limit, or a limited arena size (where leaving the arena means you forfeit), or the mundanes get to pit their 4 characters worth of WBL against the Wizard's 1 characters worth of WBL, but only that last one is anything other than an arbitrary attempt to give the non-casters some kind of chance against the ridiculous BS of magic.

[OldTrees1]

Nope. Core only (ick)


Seconding Kelb; Core has

Strange responses considering his point had nothing to do with core. Go reread his post to double check. The word core only appears once and it is in a list
And in that situation, core, expansions, third party, dragon magazine, the wizard ALWAYS wins.Meaning that in *predescribed forum "low" OP or higher situation* regardless of how many sources are or are not available,.

I eagerly await your actual replies to his post.

[Beheld]

Yeah, I'm going to have to Third Kelb. So far the only thing I have suggested that makes it an auto win is that:

1) The Wizard could be somewhere else: Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm)
2) The Wizard could send 50 Pit Fiends to kill you: Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend)

That is literally all that is required for the Wizard to have 100% chance of winning, and that's all Core, and honestly, it's not even high OP. It's called, literally realizing that the Planar Binding spells exist and using them for literally anything.

Now if you just declare that the Wizard is not allowed to use any kind of Binding spell... well, I can probably still get 100% win out of Dominate or Animate Dead. But if you just declare he's not allowed to use any of the totally core, totally explicitly supposed to be used for minions, minion spells, then it might get into the territory where the Wizard has some small semblance of dying if he's also an idiot. But just the existence of Greater Planar Binding is a statement that "How many fighters can a Wizard kill?" is answered by "infinity."

[busterswd]

Strange responses considering his point had nothing to do with core. Go reread his post to double check. The word core only appears once and it is in a list Meaning that in *predescribed forum "low" OP or higher situation* regardless of how many sources are or are not available,.

I eagerly await your actual replies to his post.

The mentality behind those responses is that even your most basic, non splat book Wizard has a free reset button in Contingency, which is not an unusual spell for a wizard to have prepared at all, even in a low OP game. The instant the wizard knows he's under attack and is given time to prepare, the mundanes lose.

[eggynack]

Yeah, I'm going to have to Third Kelb. So far the only thing I have suggested that makes it an auto win is that:

1) The Wizard could be somewhere else: Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm)
2) The Wizard could send 50 Pit Fiends to kill you: Greater Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingGreater.htm), Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend)

That is literally all that is required for the Wizard to have 100% chance of winning, and that's all Core, and honestly, it's not even high OP. It's called, literally realizing that the Planar Binding spells exist and using them for literally anything.

Now if you just declare that the Wizard is not allowed to use any kind of Binding spell... well, I can probably still get 100% win out of Dominate or Animate Dead. But if you just declare he's not allowed to use any of the totally core, totally explicitly supposed to be used for minions, minion spells, then it might get into the territory where the Wizard has some small semblance of dying if he's also an idiot. But just the existence of Greater Planar Binding is a statement that "How many fighters can a Wizard kill?" is answered by "infinity."
It's more likely that a limit would be placed on the wizard's ability to teleport out of the area than on his ability to command creatures or even to use contingency. Such a limitation is rather bog standard, as these things go. Still, I see no reason why this or any other limitation, beyond the possibility of an upper limit on overall optimization (which I don't think would preclude your suggestions), would suit this scenario.

[AvatarVecna]

Strange responses considering his point had nothing to do with core. Go reread his post to double check. The word core only appears once and it is in a list Meaning that in *predescribed forum "low" OP or higher situation* regardless of how many sources are or are not available,.

I eagerly await your actual replies to his post.
The mentality behind those responses is that even your most basic, non splat book Wizard has a free reset button in Contingency, which is not an unusual spell for a wizard to have prepared at all, even in a low OP game. The instant the wizard knows he's under attack and is given time to prepare, the mundanes lose.

This, essentially. Low-op wizards are using basic spells in their intended use, with little to no creativity. High-level, low-op wizards cannot be prepare for every eventuality at one time, it's just not possible (even high-op wizards have some trouble with that). The huge advantage the wizard has is that, if their current spell load-out is insufficient for the task they find themselves in, and they don't have a party dragging them down, they can leave and return when they've had time to prepare for that specific fight (barring circumstances that prevent them from leaving, such as the aforementioned time/area limit).

What it comes down to is 3 questions: firstly, is the wizard prepared in a way that can allow him to curbstomp these particular mundanes in any way (probably not, but maybe); secondly, is there any preparation the wizard could take that would allow them to curbstomp these particular mundanes in any way (almost 100% yes); thirdly, is the wizard capable of avoiding a fight with this group long enough to prepare himself in a way that allows him to curbstomp them (almost 100% yes).

A high-level wizard whose idea of fighting non-casters involves getting within weapon range is a low-op wizard, and potentially a stupid one. But even a wizard who mostly uses blast spells, even a wizard who bans conjuration and transmutation to specialize in enchantment, even a wizard played by someone without a single rank of Profession (Optimizer) or Knowledge (What The Hell You're Doing) has at least a basic understanding of when a wizard is at their best (namely, when they are prepared for the fight that occurs) and when wizards are at their worst (in the fight they're not prepared for), and can understand and appreciate the usefulness of a good Contingency. 9 year old me understood this his first read-through of the Player's Handbook, and 9 year old me was a moron who thought Polymorph was meh at best while thinking Meteor Swarm was as useful as Time Stop. It doesn't take an optimizer to know that a wizard who escapes to fight another day can now return even stronger than before; even the wizards in the Harry Potter universe know this, and they can't even figure out how to properly abuse time travel, for pete's sake.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Strange responses considering his point had nothing to do with core. Go reread his post to double check. The word core only appears once and it is in a list Meaning that in *predescribed forum "low" OP or higher situation* regardless of how many sources are or are not available,.

I eagerly await your actual replies to his post.

His post heaviy implied, if not outright stated, that the problem is that the level of optimization considered "minimal" on the forum is significantly higher than an average game. He then supported this by highlighting the idea that most forum goers assume that petty much all sources are available. I counter-pointed that even if you assume -no- sources outside the core rulebooks and no "trickery" beyond simply using a couple of spells for the most obvious applications of those spells, which is an -extremely- low bar for low-optimization, that it's -still- an extremely lop-sided engagement to the point that it's basically unwinnable for the non-casters. I even threw in an extra bone in not having the wizard withdraw and return on an alpha-strike basis days or even weeks later when the non-casters would stand literally no chance whatsoever outside of divine intervention.

I'll now further postulate that you could throw the non-casters a further bone in giving them access to the entire complete X line of books, the paperback class books (tome and blood, defenders of the faith, song and silence, etc), the environment books (stormwrack, sandstorm, etc), and the entire races line and made the wizard stick to the exact same tactics; contingent resilient sphere to neutrallize the alpha-strike, followed by an aggressive response; from the still core only wizard that it wouldn't significantly change how lop-sided the scenario is as long as everyone is still denied their WBL. It'd be a lot tougher than the core-only scenario but even a blaster wizard or well built blaster -sorcerer- would still have very good odds of winning an -overwhelming- victory. It's a lot tougher to stomp to death a rabbit than an ant but neither poses a noteworthy threat unless you lay down and let them bite at your throat.

and note; I actually -like- playing non-ToB non-casters and half-casters (Paladin, ranger, hexblade, etc). Not being able to solve pretty much any problem with one of a handful of spell-lines (polymorph, summon monster, planar binding [even non-abusive]) is much more engaging to me.

Seriously, name an obstacle that can't be solved by shapechanging, summoning, or calling.

[johnbragg]

Look OP. Im gunna say something that I only can because this forum doesnt have a downvote mechanic. People here assume a high level of optimization in hypothetical situations. Most people who comment on these threads have such a huge knowledge of the game that what they consider "low op" is still LEAGUES above the average game.

You have a point here, but it doesn't matter in this case. There is a disagreement over what "low OP" means. To them, it means "restraining my Tier 1 caster for the good of everyone's fun." To you and me, it means "what a 1st time player would do, picking spells from the SRD based on things they've seen X-Men do that seem useful." So contingency and planar binding, although pretty much "I win" buttons in this situation, aren't low-OP options. Teleport, polymorph, and limited wish, however, ARE low-OP options. And they're ALSO "I win" buttons in this situation, since from the original post, it doesn't say the wizard can't run away and come back tomorrow with a different spell selection.

Just using "X-Men Level Optimization", the wizard is using overland flight because he's a wizard, not some pissant mundane who walks or rides a horse. He knows he must battle, so he flips through the SRD for useful spells. With a little bit of advice, he focuses on spells that have long durations, 1 hour/level. Scrying eyes means he'll find the mundanes. When he finds them, he teleports within range, but not within sword range and blasts them with 6 fireballs in a row, because no one told him that Evasion is a thing. But the Barbarian with 139 hp fails 2 reflex saves and makes 4, taking 140 hp damage. So now he has to figure out what to do about the Rogue, but he still has all of his 4th level spell slots, and 6ths and 7ths. (His 5ths are all Teleport, because just in case.)

Meanwhile, the mundanes can't do anything to him except shoot arrows. Either he casts protection from arrows. or mirror image, or stoneskin, or he casts teleport and comes back the next day with better spells.


Wizard is fairly generic, but the the party should be able counter all common wizard tactics (invisibility, flying, mind control, summoning, etc).
For terrain, I'll arbitrarily say a forest. The wizard and the party enter, knowing they must battle each other, but know where each other.

For benefit of OP, they pretty much can't counter any of those things. Maybe they have a good enough Spot and Listen check to make invisibility not as good as it could be. But if Wizard is flying, then he isn't giving you footsteps to hear or footprints to see, and he's probably not close enough to make sorta-knowing-where-he-is matter.



And in that situation, core, expansions, third party, dragon magazine, the wizard ALWAYS wins. If your friend is approaching it from that angle, he is OBJECTIVELY right.

Here is your angle. ALMOST NO GAME IS PLAYED THAT WAY. You show me a game where someone plays a god wizard, Ill show you 50 where the DM chucks them out for being a spoil sport, and 100 more where the wizard is the weakest party member. And by that, I mean making the wrong spell choices, hanging on to their spells for fear of wasting them, not being given down time, no additional spells, the list goes on.

But even then, you had to construct a scenario where the wizard is taken by surprise and killed by his adventuring companions.




MythWeavers randomly generated Barbarian 15
Roman, male human Bbn15: CR 15; Size M (5 ft., 4 in. tall);
HD 15d12+30; hp 139; Init +2; Spd 40 ft.; AC 12; Attack
+20/+15/+10 melee, or +17/+12/+7 ranged; SV Fort +11, Ref
+9, Will +5; AL CE; Str 20, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 11,
Cha 10.

Languages Spoken: Auran, Common.


Skills and feats: Climb +17, Handle Animal +18, Hide +2,
Intimidate +10, Listen +14, Move Silently +2, Ride +18,
Speak Language +1, Spot +0, Survival +6, Swim +17;
Blind-Fight, Cleave, Endurance, Lightning Reflexes, Mounted
Combat, Power Attack, Run.

Possessions: 59,000 gp in gear.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And to really hammer home my first point in this thread, if you change the scenario above to core only plus MiC and everyone gets their full WBL, the gap between the opposing sides closes far more than in my previous arrangement of core only wizard vs common splats but no WBL mundanes.

[OldTrees1]

This, essentially. Low-op wizards are using basic spells in their intended use, with little to no creativity. High-level, low-op wizards cannot be prepare for every eventuality at one time, it's just not possible (even high-op wizards have some trouble with that). The huge advantage the wizard has is that, if their current spell load-out is insufficient for the task they find themselves in, and they don't have a party dragging them down, they can leave and return when they've had time to prepare for that specific fight (barring circumstances that prevent them from leaving, such as the aforementioned time/area limit).
-snip-

Thanks. I appreciate you second reply to their post. I knew you would make good points which is why I was initially discouraged by the miss.

Nice HP reference by the way :smallwink:

[ryu]

And to really hammer home my first point in this thread, if you change the scenario above to core only plus MiC and everyone gets their full WBL, the gap between the opposing sides closes far more than in my previous arrangement of core only wizard vs common splats but no WBL mundanes.

This is not to say that the gap is actually closed. It's just that now the two points lay somewhere within the same plane, rather than just the same multiverse. Do keep in mind though that any one plane is still infinite, but the gap is still closer.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is not to say that the gap is actually closed. It's just that now the two points lay somewhere within the same plane, rather than just the same multiverse. Do keep in mind though that any one plane is still infinite, but the gap is still closer.

Too true. For a final point; if the non-casters get to use every part of the animal (all sources) and the wizard is stuck with core only and both sides get their full WBL the gap actually closes to the point that both sides can see each other and you have something approximating a fair fight, or even an overwhelming victory if the "mundanes" (hate that description) are hi-op and the wizard is a newb. Wealth and extra sources do -way- more for non-casters than they do for casters with few exceptions (looking at you, complete mage).

[Zanos]

I suggest stabbing him in his sleep. A lot.
If a wizard is level 15, he either doesn't need to sleep, or the place where he does sleep is absolutely lethal to any form of life that isn't specifically designated by him.

Either that, or he isn't level 15, because he is dead.

In this scenario though, as always, player > build > class, and this is especially true with wizards. Nobody sucks more than a badly played wizard, and few classes are more powerful than a well made one and played one.

I will say that from any sort of practical optimization standpoint it would be tremendously difficult if not outright impossible for a 4 man team with no access to magic to defeat the wizard. Wizards naturally get access to game changing effects that non-magical classes lack. This is rather game spanning and difficult to describe completely, but an easy example is, say, forcecage. The walls are literally indestructible outside of magical effects, there is no save, and the only reliable way to escape it is to teleport, which the party can't do. Speaking of teleportation, if the wizard decides he doesn't want to fight, he can just turn invisible or teleport away, then scry the party and kill them at his convenience.

[ATHATH]

Just imagine the outcome of 4 guys from the gym (unless you're using ToB) with pool noodles (those foam tubes) trying to fight against someone who can shoot fire from his hands, fly, mind control people, force people to dance uncontrollably, raise the dead, turn into a hydra, bind demons, teleport, use telekinesis to fling 15 or so blades at people, etc. That's pretty much how this fight will go.

[eggynack]

Just imagine the outcome of 4 guys from the gym (unless you're using ToB)
Nah, if they're ToB then they're just particularly buff guys from the gym. Shouldn't alter the results either way. I guess IHS could change things, if you take a broad reading, but that's reaching a bit.

[atemu1234]

Nah, if they're ToB then they're just particularly buff guys from the gym. Shouldn't alter the results either way. I guess IHS could change things, if you take a broad reading, but that's reaching a bit.

Yeah, at this point the only thing that can beat him (if, and only if, properly optimized) is a 16th+ level wizard.

[ryu]

Yeah, at this point the only thing that can beat him (if, and only if, properly optimized) is a 16th+ level wizard.

An equally leveled and optimized tier 1 still has a shot.

[atemu1234]

An equally leveled and optimized tier 1 still has a shot.

Only one that can cast wizard spells; it's by far the most diverse and useful spell list in the game. So that leaves... StP Erudite?

[Beheld]

Only one that can cast wizard spells; it's by far the most diverse and useful spell list in the game. So that leaves... StP Erudite?

Even then, nothing can even deal with the endless Pit Fiend Army short of Wish cheese to get your own endless Pit Fiend army, since StP Erudite can't have 8th level spells at level 15.

[ryu]

Only one that can cast wizard spells; it's by far the most diverse and useful spell list in the game. So that leaves... StP Erudite?

Archivist, artificer, StP erudite, psion learning powers from an StP erudite, any number of common PrCs granting wizard spell access along with more and early entry tricks, and more.

Wizard 20 is not the most powerful thing in the game. It's just high tier 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Archivist, artificer, StP erudite, psion learning powers from an StP erudite, any number of common PrCs granting wizard spell access along with more and early entry tricks, and more.

Wizard 20 is not the most powerful thing in the game. It's just high tier 1.Pun Puuuuuun! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImBolnTVH8)

[ryu]

Pun Puuuuuun! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QImBolnTVH8)

I was deliberately avoiding talking about that. Besides, we all know the first ingredient in any sane and internally consistent setting is a pun-pun who doesn't get involved much beyond preventing anyone from becoming pun-pun.