Dismembering a Polymorphed Starfish

[RickAllison]

Okay, this is an odd question, but one that came up while discussing how terrifying a gargantuan sea star could be. If a Polymorphed/True Polymorphed starfish had parts of it ripped off and then allowed to heal, what happens if the pieces are Dispelled? Each piece can become a full starfish identical to the first, so would they become:

A) Just starfish. This raises the question of which piece is the original person, but would be the easiest to adjudicate.

B) Each becomes a copy of the base form. This one could get... well, ridiculous. Admittedly, anyone who consented to become an unintelligent bottomfeeder and have his arms ripped off probably isn't right in the head to begin with...

C) Each becomes a copy of the base form, but there is only one mind to go around. Hive mind, away! I like this interpretation solely because I enjoy the image of a crazy, coastal druid having numerous clones and being a very surreal boss for a party :smallsmile:

Thoughts?

[Astral Avenger]

This reminds me of the Crystal Cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6132389&postcount=1) campaign log (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6401791&postcount=5).
I'm partial to option 2, especially if the resulting creatures are both thinking they're the original and the other must die. Almost Ice Assassin shenanigans in feel. Option 3 is always fun too, nothing quite like questionably sane hive minds with massive amounts of power.

[RickAllison]

This reminds me of the Crystal Cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6132389&postcount=1) campaign log (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6401791&postcount=5).
I'm partial to option 2, especially if the resulting creatures are both thinking they're the original and the other must die. Almost Ice Assassin shenanigans in feel. Option 3 is always fun too, nothing quite like questionably sane hive minds with massive amounts of power.

Kind of reminds me about the one Animorphs story where Rachel split into two separate forms who had different aspects of her personality. So with my current character, he could have his greedy thief form, his staunch enforcer of contracts form, his loyalty form, his kindness and generosity form, and his cold and calculating killer form!

[Slipperychicken]

Polymorph: The process of dismembering the starfish reduces its hp to 0 and the creature reverts.

True Polymorph: The newly-created starfish are distinct creatures and not under the spell's effect. Only one of the starfish is affected by the spell (whichever the DM judges to be the original; perhaps by whichever has the most mass in a given division?), it turns back to its normal form, and the other starfish remain as they were, as starfish. This works because the starfish are not all the same creature, but are offspring of the original.

[MaxWilson]

A similar question occurs for a Black Pudding, which can be dismembered without reducing it to 0 HP first...

My ruling as DM is #1.

[RickAllison]

Polymorph: The process of dismembering the starfish reduces its hp to 0 and the creature reverts.

True Polymorph: The newly-created starfish are distinct creatures and not under the spell's effect. Only one of the starfish is affected by the spell (whichever the DM judges to be the original), it turns back to its normal form, and the other starfish remain as they were, as starfish. This works because the starfish are not all the same creature, but are offspring of the original.

Two things: It is possible to remove a starfish's limbs without reducing its HP to 0, at least if D&D starfish are anything like real-life starfish (else this question wouldn't be quite so interesting). The TP reasoning is potentially valid, but there is an issue: the definition of whether the offshoots are actually offspring. Biologically, there is no reason why one portion of the starfish would be the one that was the original because (barring mutations that are unlikely to occur over the context of this question) every new starfish is biologically identical to the original. Each arm and the central portion are identical in terms of biology and there is no brain or other centralized memory to really dictate which is the origin. It would be even worse in the case of the family Asteriidae who reproduce by fission. In those, the central disk itself splits so you could not even claim the portion with that as the original.

[Squibsallotl]

Strangest thread title ever. Also potentially a great name for a psytrance track.

[RickAllison]

Strangest thread title ever. Also potentially a great name for a psytrance track.

The beauty of TTRPGs: being able to ponder what happens when a shapeshifted person undergoes asexual reproduction through being physically ripped apart. Does make for some rather odd combinations of ideas...

[Kane0]

This isn't even my final form!

Assuming the polymorphed form is permanent, I'd say each piece you rip off and grow becomes a new creature identical to the base. Thus if you have a fiendish gargantuan starfish that you cut an arm off then grow it becomes a second fiendish gargantuan starfish. New creature, statistically (and genetically, like the real thing) the same.

[busterswd]

Possibility four: you dispel a new starfish. You see a dismembered foot surrounded by ectoplasm.

[Balyano]

I'm not sure how the rules work on this. But the first thing to pop into my mind was to let them be five distinct personalities, kind of like the different aspects of ravens mind from teen titans. Have the player take control of one of them and then the group has to hunt the rest down and force them to merge back into the player. One by one.

[gullveig]

As of wikipedia, it seems that only a permanent true polymorph will do the shenanigan...


The damaged tissue healed in about 10 days and the animal grew a new arm over the course of several months.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction_in_starfish#Autotomy_of_arms

EDIT: Know I'm thinking about the use of spells like Cure Wounds, Regenerate and Restoration to speed up the process... :P

[hacksnake]

I doubt there are any rules that address this specifically so assuming this is just an opinion "what would you do?" kind of thread...

If it was already a ridiculous gonzo game where simulacrum shenanigans fit in I'd just make them uncontrolled clones. How they reacted to this would be somewhat up to the target's personality. If it was an item then I guess you can just dup items that way.

Another route that might be cool would be kind of like that Jet Li movie 'The One'. Your power is divided between all the clones and whenever you kill a clone you absorb his power. Clones are independent. This could make a fun basis to a campaign and be a way to enforce plot-based leveling up (the only way you 'earn exp' is by eliminating shards of yourself and absorbing them).

For a 'normal' game I'd go with "the biggest piece was the original; you can't dupe. If it's two exactly equal pieces it's a 50/50 split which one is the original" approach.

[Shaofoo]

Why not take example of a creature that has actual regenerative properties coded in the game: the troll.

There is a variant where you can chop up a troll and each hand, leg and even head can act on its own but they don't turn into other trolls, if the troll regenerates the limb then the severed limb dies.

So I don't think that you'll be able to chop up a starfish into multiple starfishes just like you can't chop up a troll into a troll army.

Probably I would say that each living being has a spark of life that you can't duplicate regardless how the creature can regenerate. Splitting a starfish in half will have one side being able to regenerate and the other rotting away.

Of course this is speaking in D&D terms and not real life.