How would you make shield use better/more interesting?

[Windrammer]

I love the idea of a blocking reaction move, as it much better evokes the sensation of shieldfighting. 5th edition has something like this I believe, but I think it should be a bit better and given with proficiency.

What if shields didn't actually give you a passive shield ac bonus (hear me out), but gave you a more significant bonus when you choose to use it as a reaction to an enemy attack roll. Then you can take a feat to have a persistent shield ac bonus which is less than the reaction bonus, like half or something.

Or maybe you could even make shield rolls, similar to attack rolls, to which you add your base attack bonus, sort of like Melee Evasion or the Wall of Blades maneuver.

[TheYell]

Use it like a Zulu. The first attack with the shield does no damage but leaves the opponent flatfooted during additional attacks with the "main" weapon

[frogglesmash]

Maybe incorporate shields into this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?136100-3-5-Parry-basic-combat-action-quot-attack-quot-option) set of homebrew rules i.e. let subtract shield bonus from AC until your next turn to add it to your parry check instead, or something along those lines.

[Castilonium]

Look into Path of War by Dreamscarred Press. It's 3rd party material for Pathfinder. Specifically, look at the Iron Tortoise discipline. It gives you a lot of reactive blocks and other fun attacks you use with a shield.

[paranoidbox]

In our games we simply made up a variant of the AC/DR system.

Our shields do not give AC, since they're used for absorbing a blow. Instead they give DR. This, together with some DR derived from armor and magical bonuses, actually works out quite well for us.

Heavily armored and shielded characters have a generally lower AC than Dex-based characters, but have a high enough DR that it doesn't matter. Usually they come out ahead even as AC doesn't actually scale well vs. high CR monsters anyway.

[ben-zayb]

In our games we simply made up a variant of the AC/DR system.

Our shields do not give AC, since they're used for absorbing a blow. Instead they give DR. This, together with some DR derived from armor and magical bonuses, actually works out quite well for us.

Heavily armored and shielded characters have a generally lower AC than Dex-based characters, but have a high enough DR that it doesn't matter. Usually they come out ahead even as AC doesn't actually scale well vs. high CR monsters anyway.
Wouldn't that mean massive DR for monsters that usually have high natural armor bonus?

[johnbragg]

Feats.

Be Awesome With a Shield. Take -2 to all attacks, add +1/2 BAB to your AC for the round. Essentially, you're Two-Weapon Fighting (-2 to all attacks), but instead of using your shield to bash, you're actively using it to block incoming attacks.

Add Shield Bonus to Touch AC. (Possible Feat, possible houserule.)

Devoted Guardian/Master Meatshield. Use Attacks of Opportunity to intercept attacks on allies within 5' step. Attacks, and damage, are rolled against you instead.

Special Attack, Shield Charge. Using your shield as a ram, add your BAB to Bull Rush or Overrun attempts

[Flickerdart]

To make shields better in a meaningful way, we should first determine why shields suck in the first place.

Takes up a hand
In a melee environment where two-handed Power Attack returns are the best way to get damage, wielding a shield means you hit half as hard.

Gives dubious returns
Not hitting for a lot is bad because D&D tends to be rocket tag - if you don't kill the other guy, the other guy kills you. The AC bonus from a shield does not do enough to protect you from the rocket tag, since to-hit is usually very high, and attacks that don't rely on hitting AC also exist.

In addition to shoring up weaknesses, we can also improve strengths. So what are shields good for, as it stands?

Cheap armour properties
You can move +X properties from your armour to a cheap +1 shield, and save big.

Now, we want to avoid making shields so good that everyone will want one, but we should bring them up to speed. Let's keep the offensive weakness of using a shield, and focus on its more iconic uses. I don't agree that feats are the solution because melee builds are already feat-starved. Here are my proposed changes:

New Shield Rules
A shield is not just a slab of wood or metal, but a tool crafted for war. To catch shields up to the variety we see in weapons, without writing a bunch of new shields, let's give them mix-and-matchable special abilities. Let us say that a light or heavy shield can have one such ability, a tower shield can have two, and a buckler gets zero. A masterwork shield gains another ability slot (so a masterwork buckler would get one special ability).


Gripping: A rim of soft wood, or metal hooks attached to the front, can catch a blade. If this shield is used to disarm, the weapon is stuck in the shield and you can remove it as a free action.
Layered: Alternating layers of wood and metal make this shield ideal for deflecting attacks. Add this shield's bonus to your touch AC, but only when you are not flat-footed.
Spiked: If you want shield spikes, you have to give up a slot.
Steady: You can brace this shield against an opponent bearing down on you. This shield grants a +4 bonus on checks to oppose a bull rush.
Tall: Tall shields protect your legs, granting you a +4 bonus against trip attempts. They also protect your mount, granting it +1 to AC.


Feel free to come up with more ideas.

[Elder_Basilisk]

IMO, shields are actually a lot better than people give them credit for right now. At low levels and in lower than standard WBL games, it's hard to get enough AC from a shield and hard to get enough AC from other sources for the AC from a shield to really push you over the top. However in a more standard WBL game, by mid-levels, that +4 heavy shield can make a big difference in how often your character gets hit.

Shield slam and other various style feats also give some interesting and attractive options to characters who have enough feats to develop an interesting fighting style.

That said, some ideas to make them better:

Direct improvements

0. Additional +1 or +2 bonus for light and heavy shields.
1. Shield bonus applies to touch AC
2. Shield bonus applies to reflex saves (maybe just against area attacks)
3. Eliminate the animated shield (or use pathfinder rules)

Indirect improvements

1. Allow armbands of might (upping low number power attacks for one-handed weapon users really helps weapon+shield users)
2. Use Pathfinder's Power Attack
3. Introduce a feat to allow spellcasters to use a weapon to do somatic components for spells. (Shields other than bucklers would be a much better deal for clerics (and druids and paladins) if they could wield a shield and have a weapon in hand when casting spells. If they have to sheathe their weapon or loose their shield to cast a spell or have to leave a hand free and draw their weapon after casting spells, using a heavy shield involves a lot of ugly tradeoffs).

Interesting improvements

1. Allow deflect arrows to work when you are wielding a shield (rather than only when you have a free hand)
2. Add a feat to allow ray deflection with shields (I think Pathfinder already has one but maybe that's 3.5)
3. Allow Pathfinder's Shield Mastery feat.
3.1 Reduce the pre-reqs to BAB+6 or something
3.2 Interpret it to eliminate all of the two weapon fighting penalties--for both weapons.

[Deophaun]

Our shields do not give AC, since they're used for absorbing a blow. Instead they give DR.
I would have gone the other way: Shields provide AC, armor provides DR. Historically, it was the shield that kept you alive; it was the thing the enemy had to get around before they could even think of harming you, which is how AC functions.

[Starbuck_II]

You could use this optional rule:

Shields Shall be Splintered:
Beside AC bonus as a normal.
However, any time you take damage, you can opt instead to say your shield absorbed the full force of the blow. The shield is shattered and must be discarded, but you don't take any damage from that hit. Magic Shields have a 10% per bonus to survive and be used again this way taking no damage.

[martixy]

Flick did some good analysis with which I agree fully.

Here's my own theorycrafting:
(These are rules I am putting together for an upcoming game I'm gonna host. I am actually a fan of reducing rocket-tagginess.)

Double shield AC bonuses if you have enough strength. It breaks down to this:
- Light shield: +2 AC, 12 Str
- Heavy shield: +4 AC, 14 Str
- Tower shield: +8 AC, 18 Str

This potentially makes shield bonuses significant enough to warrant investiture. Even a dex-based character is likely to meet at least the light shield and it makes the tower shield a rather potent defensive option. Especially if you specialize in it. Literally. There is a feat called Shield Specialization that increases the AC you gain.

This is the point where I mention there are a crapton of published shield-related feats that are exactly what a lot of people are already suggesting.
(You guys are not the first to think of improving shields, the designers already did.)

Lords of Madness has Parrying shield which lets you add your shield bonus to Touch AC.
PHB2 has a quite a few good shield related feats.

See, the problem is not that there isn't anything interesting to do, it's that it is feat-expensive to do so.
So you might look into ways to alleviate the feat taxes required to get to the point of being able to do interesting things.

For example I allow "buying" proficiencies with BAB, which when they have to be bought with feats become unnecessary feat taxes. (2 BAB for shield proficiency, 3 for tower shield proficiency) This grants a small power boost if you pick a strong exotic weapon, but most of all it grants mundanes a lot more versatility.

Additionally, you do not have to look at things in isolation.
You can improve on shields' utility without specifically altering shields themselves all that much.

Consider the following house rule I've seen employed quite a lot(and intend to employ) - total defense adds your BAB to AC.

Just with that simple addition(even without the buff to shield AC), consider the following combo: Active Shield Defense + Robilar's Gambit + High-BAB(kind of required for Robilar).
You can hide behind the your shield and gain massive amounts of AC, while relying on AoOs for damage. There are easy ways to optimize the number of AoOs. And you can become nearly unhittable if you add the various other types of AC you're likely to have by the time you get Robilar's.

P.S. Someone mentioned some homebrew parry rules.
Well, you don't have make it that complicated. My version of parry is a defensive version of Robilar's Gambit. Same basic mechanic, but you roll your attack to deflect his, instead of attacking him(as an opposed attack roll).

[paranoidbox]

Wouldn't that mean massive DR for monsters that usually have high natural armor bonus?

It's not too bad. Natural Armor bonuses don't give that much DR for their value (it's like 1 per 5 NA). You get some DR from wearing armor, you get some DR from magical bonuses, but you get a huge spike from shields. Most monsters don't carry shields so their DR is rarely that high.

The nice thing about our system is that the game of rocket tag Flickerdart mentioned is severely lessened. (At least, against monsters.)


I would have gone the other way: Shields provide AC, armor provides DR. Historically, it was the shield that kept you alive; it was the thing the enemy had to get around before they could even think of harming you, which is how AC functions.

Sure, I see what you mean. We interpreted it the other way around.

[Starbuck_II]

But mine doesn't care about AC bonuses (which only thing feats do).

Mine lets you sacrifice a shield to protect you.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about this houserule?

Shields help a dextrous character defend themselves, by interposing the shield at opportune moments. As such, bucklers increase the maximum dexterity bonus of any armour worn by 1, light shields by 2, and heavy shields by 3. Tower shields, depending on interpretation, can be 4 (if they are simply bigger/better shields), or provide cover or evasion or similar (if they are portable walls).

You're not helping out anyone without a high dexterity bonus, but this improves the synergy between shields and heavy armour (to get the classic 'tank' setup), and allows higher AC (including touch AC), without providing flat bonuses.


I want to point out that it's not weird that shields become outmoded by better weaponry. It happened on Earth, it can happen on Oerth.

[Mr Adventurer]

I was wondering a similar thing a while back (I need to go back to that thread actually):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473864-3-5-What-would-this-rule-do-to-the-game

[Droopy McCool]

Double shield AC bonuses if you have enough strength. It breaks down to this:
- Light shield: +2 AC, 12 Str
- Heavy shield: +4 AC, 14 Str
- Tower shield: +8 AC, 18 Str

This potentially makes shield bonuses significant enough to warrant investiture. Even a dex-based character is likely to meet at least the light shield and it makes the tower shield a rather potent defensive option. Especially if you specialize in it. Literally. There is a feat called Shield Specialization that increases the AC you gain.

I like the doubled bonuses, but not the Str requirement. I know why you did it though. It does, in fact, balance the "buying proficiencies" method. I've created a different proficiency system for weapons and shields, Which allows you to pick which ones you are proficient with without blowing a feat. Also, you should throw Bucklers back in (with a 9 or 10 Str prereq) so archers can have an active shield bonus going.

McCool

[Chronikoce]

If you don't mind increasing the amount of rules then I would suggest looking at the shield rules for Hackmaster 5th edition. I think their shield rules are quite good, however it would definitely take some work to import into a d&d game. It may give you some nice ideas though.

[ace rooster]

Light shield gives dex to AC again.
Heavy shield gives str to AC.
Both capped by BAB. Keep SAD characters SAD while giving them a defensive option that scales similarly to the offensive one. This aims to make the trade fall off less at high levels.

Shields blocking spells. In addition to any other applying to touch AC against spells (and alchemical items and whatever else the DM rules it really should work against), shields grant a +2 bonus against spells that ask for a reflex save and permit a reflex save against any spell that doesn't, at a DC of 5 higher than the spell would normally need. Given that wooden boards usually break line of effect, it always strikes me as odd that a +5 tower shield does not. Do wizards just find it funny to build defensive items that transmit spell effects? Yeah, they probably do... and yes it is.


FlickerDart's analysis is correct, but only scratches the surface of the deeper issue. Defence is not viable in 3.5. This is not because you can't build an effective build for surviving, but that you can't do anything just by surviving. For example, if a fighter manages to get into melee with a caster the only thing they can really do is kill them. Spells provoke AoEs, but defensive casting and 5' adjusts mean that casters are barely inconvienienced by being in melee. Get rid of defensive casting options, and make casting a full round action (that you can take a move in) and suddenly shields get much better immediately, because a fighter can shut down a caster without having to maximise damage.

Unless tanking is made viable, tank items will never work well.

[Vizzerdrix]

What about having shields grant a miss chance? 10% per 1 ac.


Or instead, having shields grant more ac over all.

[Droopy McCool]

I've changed shield bashes so it doesn't deal damage, but instead opens up the enemy to attacks. Here it is.

Shield Bash
As a Standard action, you can bash someone with a light or heavy shield in order to knock them off balance. Only light and heavy shields can be used to make bash attacks, but you lose your shields bonus to AC in the same round you bash.

First, make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. Once you make this check, you immediately lose your shield's AC bonus.

If you succeed, your opponent must make a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + 1/2 BAB + Strength, losing either his Dexterity bonus to AC or his shield bonus to AC for failing (your choice, but he must be holding a shield for the second) until the start of your next turn, and you get an immediate AoO against him. If he makes the save, only you have lost your shield's AC bonus.

If you fail, your opponent gets an immediate attack of opportunity on you (w/o your shield AC), which he can use to take a five-foot step instead.

Also, a repurposed feat - Improved Shield Bash:
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Shield Proficiency
Benefit: You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a shield bash and retain the shields bonus to AC when you succeed on the Strength check.

McCool