OOTS #1026 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Gnoman]

Spending that much of the comic playing up the obvious meaning of the title was a nice touch.

[Sniper Jo]

I know all too well the feeling of putting in a load of effort towards doing something in-game, only for another player to upstage you.
(grumbles)

[Casterbridge]

Great way to start the week, the return everyone's favorite murderous halfling.

[Norin Warstone]

I was terrified reading this, thinking Belkar was going to bite it. I like this outcome much more.

[Quild]

I sympathize with Belkar.
Reasonable adult admitting his mistakes?!? If that catches on, some beings will be out of a job!
Also Kill Steal. Sort of.


I'm surprised that Belkar had absolutely no spare weapon. He got Tarquin's dagger not long ago, I suppose he sold one in Tinkertown.

[manuelj]

"I'll just go get my daggers."

Giant, you rule man. That was a great line. I Love this strip.

[Toper]

Oh, Belkar, don't you know that plans only work if you don't tell anyone about them first (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html)?

[declinator]

Does Belkar prepare his taunts at dusk or at dawn - or does they come naturally to him?

[chy03001]

Thanks Giant!

So... Does Roy know how to control his weapon now? It seemed more deliberate this time around.

Also... It's kind of sad how much more suffering Belkar has to deal with now that he's chosen to play the game. I hope he gets the Chaotic Good afterlife when he dies.

[Willenium]

I honestly though this was good night Vienna for Belkar. If he chokes on a snack or something while celebrating final victory over team evil I'll be slightly miffed.

Do you think we'll see more Veldrina? V's bringing her tiger across.

[Mutant Sheep]

Ahh, Belkar. Great to see him back again.

[madtinker]

As always, a great comic and my favorite way to start the week.

[Epollo]

I missed Belkar! I understand that halflings get a bonus when fighting large creatures, but in the snow?

[Ivrytwr]

The 'absolutely' from Roy was the topper.
Just made Belkar's frustration that much more frustrating.
Thanks Giant.

[Windscion]

Lol, too perfect. Sorry, Belkar: sometimes we can do without you.

[Sam113097]

Is this the first time we've seen a Goliath in the comic?

[StorytellerHero]

Inb4 Belkar decides to save the Goliath's Head to use as a bowling ball.

[Commander672]

Poor Belkar. Can't even get a triumphant return for his troubles.

[yester]

I got tricked by the "I've got this" confidence, I still expect this charming gentleman to meet his maker quickly.

[Flibbert]

Kill-stealers!

[Rockbender]

Excellent! Excellent! Don't worry, Belkar... we all know how awesome you are... :-)

[EricS53]

This update is absolute gold! Time to see how V fairs getting wiskers to help (hopefully).

[Kantaki]

Poor Belkar... On some days nothing works out right.
On the other hand V might have saved his hide. For a moment I was a bit worried there. For the lower planes I mean. The halfling would deserve whatever that halfvampire tried to cast.

[Vinsfeld]

Poor Belkar, he just can't catch a break

[Yendor]

I was expecting Belkar to get upstaged over the Durkon thing. I'd kinda overlooked the goliath in the way.

So, maybe one more strip to wrap up the chapter? Will we switch scenes to Team Evil? Hel's Angels? The Legion of Doom?

[Carl]

That is so unfair :(. Here have a hug Belkar *hugs Belkar*.

Oi get off me you psychotic hafling...

[Grey Pilgrim]

I feel your pain Belkster... well, the emotional pain, not the got-flung-down-the-mountain-and-level-drained kind of pain.

Also: yaaay for the first page! (why is this so important to me?)

[Sylian]

You know, I think Belkar's Intelligence score might not be all that bad. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that he has an average Intelligence score or slightly above average, like 10-12 or so.

[Whelk]

Now who are the ones not being team players?

Glad to see Belkar back and well.

[Lady_Springtime]

I missed Belkar! I understand that halflings get a bonus when fighting large creatures, but in the snow?

Maybe the throwing things thing? (Snowballs and all that)

[Giscard76]

Great to see a some action and comedy after the last serious post, helps clear the palate if you will.

[StyxMotors]

I was terrified reading this, thinking Belkar was going to bite it. I like this outcome much more.

My exact feeling (which I presume was on purpose, well crafted Dr. Giant), by the end I was actually resigned to it.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I didn't think Belkar was going to bite it, but the casual anticlimax was definitely amusing and not entirely what I was expecting either.

[Kantaki]

Is this the first time we've seen a Goliath in the comic?

Kinda. That guy is the first Goliath we see, but he has shown up before. First when the Order arrived at the moot and later as a vampire when Belkar climbs back up the mountain.


Inb4 Belkar decides to save the Goliath's Head to use as a bowling ball.

Nah, a Goliath isn’t a Kobold.

[8BitNinja]

He was going to follow in the footsteps of David, but is dreams were literally cut apart with a sword and then went up in flames

:smallfrown:

[8BitNinja]

How long will it take before it goes into mist form?

Just wondering

[Whelk]

How long will it take before it goes into mist form?

Just wondering

You see the mist in the second-to-last panel.

[RblDiver]

Poor Belkar, gets thrown down a mountain and doesn't even get the satisfaction of the big reveal!

[JessmanCA]

Is no one talking about what the pink animal thing V had is?

Also what is the dark magic near B in the 2nd to last panel?

[Whelk]

Is no one talking about what the pink animal thing V had is?
Bugsby's cat-retrieving hand, used by Vaarsuvius to carry Veldrina's tiger.


Also what is the dark magic near B in the 2nd to last panel?
Presumably the vampire goliath going mist form.

[Sgt Pinback]

I'm glad I didn't scroll down until finishing the first page. Well played.

[Peelee]

Great googly moogly, i finally like Belkar.

[Shining Wrath]

What, indeed, is the point of facts if you don't get to gloat about knowing them first? Insufferable know it all voice Actually, there are many other benefits of facts. As the noted scholar Arturous of Benezak wrote ... Lancelot rides by, smites with sword

The "Wshhcnct" scene would make fine wallpaper.

And "Biting a rock, only dumber" is classic Belkar. Welcome back, little stabby friend.

[Ezekiel]

Poor Belkar getting his thunder stolen. :smallbiggrin:

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Shining Wrath]

Does Belkar prepare his taunts at dusk or at dawn - or does they come naturally to him?

He uses a 4th/5th edition mechanism and recharges them on a roll of 5 or 6.


I missed Belkar! I understand that halflings get a bonus when fighting large creatures, but in the snow?

Halflings get a racial bonus for thrown weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#halflings).
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings.


He was going to follow in the footsteps of David, but is dreams were literally cut apart with a sword and then went up in flames

:smallfrown:

He doesn't have a sling - or 5 smooth stones - and didn't try on a grown human's armor first, then reject it as too big. And we have no evidence Belkar can soothe Roy's headaches by playing on his harp.

EDIT:

It would be terribly anti-climactic if Belkar got ambushed by a leftover vampire on his way to get his daggers.

[Lathund]

Yay, back to the fun ones. Belkar is still great comic relief.

[Tarqiup Inua]

Good strip! I am just not sure I got the name of it. Is it a pun?

EDIT: Eh, okay... now it occurred to me... with the beast name at the beginning of the sentence and all that...

[Voidhawk]

Is this the first time we've ever seen Belkar's internal monologue?

[Kralzen]

Really funny, I missed the the little bastard.

[Griffincat]

Hooray for halflings! But where are his daggers that he has to go get them?

[LunarDrop]

This made my day. Thanks, Giant.

I knew that the anticlimax was coming and it was still funny as hell. Well played.

'We LITERALLY have bonuses for this"
Oh my God, yes. I remember Belkar in the gladiator arena with his pebble.

Too many great things about this comic to comment on.

And now I look like an idiot for guffawing in the middle of a quiet college lobby...

[aurilee]

Poor Belkar! :smallfrown:

I was rooting for him the whole way through, and thought the "NOW!!" panel at the end of the page might be the end of today's strip. Not only was I preparing myself for a huge cliffhanger, but also Belkar's triumphant victory.

Then Roy appeared...and Belkar's face was the saddest thing I'd ever seen.

V casually blasting the vamp-goliath was great...but sad.

His line about the daggers at the end was perfect, and made me want to give him a hug.

At least Roy acknowledged that Belkar was right. After he had totally stolen his thunder.

Overall hilarious strip though, funniest in a while. Especially because I was missing Belkar.

[Quibblicious]

"Dang it! I was going to kill that!" -- Me, every campaign, Belkar, right now :smallbiggrin:

[AutomatedTeller]

The vampire had x's for eyes, which means it's dead. I think that mist was just shaded weird.

Great comic. Poor Belkar.

I love how far this comic has gone - from "running away from goblins" to "ready to kill a goliath vampire without a weapon"

[Yendor]

Taking a look at this and 994, I think I can make out enough detail to decipher the runes in the circle (and I think there may be a typo). (It's a font called DwarfSpirits.)

THIS IS A CIRCLE OF TRUTH WHITCH (sic) IS LIKE A ZONE OF TRUTH ONLY IT WORKS FOR NARRATIVE REASONS. TRUE DAT.

[Doug Lampert]

I didn't think Belkar was going to bite it, but the casual anticlimax was definitely amusing and not entirely what I was expecting either.Yep, I can't understand why people constantly think Belkar is about to die.

Yes, there are a whole slew of prophesies. The prophesies aren't particularly ambiguous and between them eliminate almost every commonly suggested way to "cheat" the prophesy. Belkar WILL die prior to the final comic, this is as sure as Elan getting his happy ending is.

That said, why in the world would anyone expect him to be unusually likely to die PRIOR to the final confrontation at the gate in book 7?

Yeah, Rich can surprise me, so he could kill Belkar early, but in a meaningless fight against a minor vampire when Rich still has at least 1.5 books to go?

[lenon3579]

Poor poor Belkar...

[Emperordaniel]

Belkar lives to fight another day, it seems...

[Crusher]

Pure awesome! And poor Belkar. 100% of the rightness, yet 5% of the satisfaction.

Happy to see the team on the road again!

[lenon3579]

Taking a look at this and 994, I think I can make out enough detail to decipher the runes in the circle (and I think there may be a typo). (It's a font called DwarfSpirits.)

THIS IS A CIRCLE OF TRUTH WHITCH (sic) IS LIKE A ZONE OF TRUTH ONLY IT WORKS FOR NARRATIVE REASONS. TRUE DAT.


THAT is great.

[aurilee]

Taking a look at this and 994, I think I can make out enough detail to decipher the runes in the circle (and I think there may be a typo). (It's a font called DwarfSpirits.)

THIS IS A CIRCLE OF TRUTH WHITCH (sic) IS LIKE A ZONE OF TRUTH ONLY IT WORKS FOR NARRATIVE REASONS. TRUE DAT.

Colour me impressed!

That's hilarious.

[pendell]

*Snork* Now THAT is a funny update . And it's great to see Belkar again.

I'm ... a little confused , though, mechanically speaking.

We see X's in Goliath's eyes so that mean's he's at 0HP or lower , right?

So why isn't he turning to mist and seeking his nonexistent coffin?

I don't get it. By SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) we shouldn't see X's in the vampire's eyes. We should see him turn to gas, seek a coffin, THEN be utterly destroyed. Of course there is a possibility that the other vampires can create a coffin for him in that time, saving his unlife.

Hrm ... another issue. Roy snapped the staff so unless Durkula researched Protection from Daylight AND passed it on to the other vampires, they're going to have to hide from the sun during daylight hours.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sam113097]

Kinda. That guy is the first Goliath we see, but he has shown up before. First when the Order arrived at the moot and later as a vampire when Belkar climbs back up the mountain.
We have confirmation that it's a Goliath now, though. I initially thought it was a stone giant

[Tiri]

We have confirmation that it's a Goliath now, though. I initially thought it was a stone giant

Couldn't have been. The priests of Hel said the only non-vampirable priest was a half-elemental.

Poor Belkar. This kind of thing keeps happening to him. Like in OotS 111: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html

[rman]

Hooray for halflings! But where are his daggers that he has to go get them?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html

On the ground where he was thrown through the window. Nice detail points for the Giant. Although this may mean Belkar has another encounter in the temple lined up. Perhaps some cleric will comment on his arc.

[factotum]

It's almost enough to make you feel sorry for the psychopathic little serial killer. Almost. :smallwink:

[Malfarian]

Poor Belkar is Vamp-blocked!

[aurilee]

*Snork* Now THAT is a funny update . And it's great to see Belkar again.

I'm ... a little confused , though, mechanically speaking.

We see X's in Goliath's eyes so that mean's he's at 0HP or lower , right?

So why isn't he turning to mist and seeking his nonexistent coffin?

I think someone also pointed this out earlier in the thread, but on the second-to-last panel, you can see the tail end of what looks like vampire mist (just above Belkar's head).

[Aedilred]

That said, why in the world would anyone expect him to be unusually likely to die PRIOR to the final confrontation at the gate in book 7?

Yeah, Rich can surprise me, so he could kill Belkar early, but in a meaningless fight against a minor vampire when Rich still has at least 1.5 books to go?

It does seem unlikely that Belkar would die in any situation that doesn't carry particular narrative weight. That said, it's not necessarily going to be the fight with Xykon that will account for Belkar. He never really cared about saving the world or defeating Xykon. Back when Miko suggested that the OotS were working for Xykon, he seemed almost excited at the prospect. He appeared to consider Tsukiko's offer to defect seriously. He's just fighting Xykon because he's being paid and he's got nothing better to do.

The whole Durkon business on the other hand seems like a genuinely personal one for him. He seemed genuinely affected by Durkon's sacrifice on his behalf, was the only member of the Order to identify the High Priest as a villain, and bringing him down was Belkar's mission long before it was the Order's. So his snuffing it while fighting the HPoH is foreseeable, though by no means guaranteed.

Biting it in a confrontation with some random vampire, though, does seem rather unlikely. It'd be a major anticlimax completely atypical for the comic, and all around a poor storytelling decision, I think.

[Seward]

I missed Belkar! I understand that halflings get a bonus when fighting large creatures, but in the snow?

Halflings get a bonus on thrown weapons in 3.5. He was referring to the snowball.

[Seward]

I don't get it. By SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) we shouldn't see X's in the vampire's eyes. We should see him turn to gas, seek a coffin, THEN be utterly destroyed. Of course there is a possibility that the other vampires can create a coffin for him in that time, saving his unlife.

It's fairly consistent with earlier panels, where the vampires X-d before misting. Rich has been good about showing that mist. Dead != destroyed, but the vampires at the Goodsmoot are all screwed as they won't find a coffin in the time limit. Malak had a similar problem.

And seriously, what is up with the OOTS dropping their weapons right and left. In the game the only way to be separated from your weapon is to be knocked unconscious, stunned or disarmed (or to voluntarily drop it with a free action), none of which happened to Roy or Belkar in any of the Goodsmoot scenes, yet we see both of them tossing their weapons aside as if they aren't a good chunk of their wealth by level.

[ChillerInstinct]

Sloppy, sloppy Roy, you ALWAYS make sure the evil undead thing is actually dead before you turn your back to it (even if you're in a hurry) At least V was there with the drive-by dusting to finish the job...

I wonder if Belkar's strategy would have worked, though. Considering he was pretty tenderized there's a lot of ways Operation: The Other Type of Fallen Hero could have ended poorly for him. Ah well, maybe next time.

[137beth]

Poor Belkar, he finally starts planning ahead and Roy cuts him off.

[RicB76]

Ha Ha, good stuff! I wonder how many other Belkar-logues we've missed over the years.

[Rift_Wolf]

Taking a look at this and 994, I think I can make out enough detail to decipher the runes in the circle (and I think there may be a typo). (It's a font called DwarfSpirits.)

THIS IS A CIRCLE OF TRUTH WHITCH (sic) IS LIKE A ZONE OF TRUTH ONLY IT WORKS FOR NARRATIVE REASONS. TRUE DAT.

I like how Rich uses magic fonts; in a way that's aesthetic, superfluous, inane and often fourth wall breaking. This is exactly how non-real language should be used.

[Anarion]

Fun setup, a nice bit of reuniting the party after all the separate sections going on, and we got some interesting Belkar perspective. I feel for him being upstaged by reality like that.

[Kopmon]

I'll just go get my daggers.

GOLDEN!

[Vargtass]

Is this the first time we've ever seen Belkar's internal monologue?

No, the first instance would be already in 42 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html)!

[JoeyTheNeko]

so, is this confirmation that goliaths are a race in the stickverse?

[DaggerPen]

Aw, poor Belkar. Truly, there is no justice in this world :smalltongue:

[Hiro Quester]

Belkar is being overly optimistic in claiming a kill steal.

Even with the Halfling bonuses to attack rolls, could those snowballs ever do enough damage to get through a vampire's damage reduction 10/silver and magic?

[Keltest]

Belkar is being overly optimistic in claiming a kill steal.

Even with the Halfling bonuses to attack rolls, could those snowballs ever do enough damage to get through a vampire's damage reduction 10/silver and magic?

No, but gravity probably could, from that height, which was the plan.

[Tyrrell]

"You were absolutely right about Durkon and I was wrong"

He might not be reveling in it now, but that statement should be both joyful and useful to Belkar (I shall, yet again, rub your face in my rightness and your wrongness) down the line.

[EccentricFellow]

LOL! and Totally Unfair! Belkar had this down and not even a single gloat. Poor fella, that hurts. I feel for you Belkar.

[McMurphy]

This was so friggin' hilarious. :D

[Hiro Quester]

No, but gravity probably could, from that height, which was the plan.

Even that was overly optimistic. Goliath children play a game called "Stubborn Root" (RoS p. 57) practicing at resisting a bull rush attempt to move them off a spot. The goliath's bonus in a grapple against a halfling means he'd have a decent chance of taking Belkar with him down the mountain (again!).

A goliath's bonus to jump checks and to climbing in mountains probably also works against Belkar's "trip and push" plan.

[Porthos]

What an awesome strip to wake up to in the morning. :smallsmile:

I think it is the perspective shot of Roy bisecting the Vamp!Goliath that really sells it.

Also, +1 for Belkar using the "Durkon" nomenclature. :smallcool: :smalltongue

[Sith_Happens]

gettingthebandbacktogether.png

:smallcool:

[8BitNinja]

And that, my friends, is a mood whiplash

[Havelocke]

May Belkar's foreshadowing be true "the manly halfling cuts off his head"...oh that's in the future! Fingers crossed for my favorite sociopath halfling!

[Shining Wrath]

*Snork* Now THAT is a funny update . And it's great to see Belkar again.

I'm ... a little confused , though, mechanically speaking.

We see X's in Goliath's eyes so that mean's he's at 0HP or lower , right?

So why isn't he turning to mist and seeking his nonexistent coffin?

I don't get it. By SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) we shouldn't see X's in the vampire's eyes. We should see him turn to gas, seek a coffin, THEN be utterly destroyed. Of course there is a possibility that the other vampires can create a coffin for him in that time, saving his unlife.

Hrm ... another issue. Roy snapped the staff so unless Durkula researched Protection from Daylight AND passed it on to the other vampires, they're going to have to hide from the sun during daylight hours.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Bisected vampire, is surprised but not double-x'd. Vampire flambe, double-x'd. Mist departs stage left in the next panel.


so, is this confirmation that goliaths are a race in the stickverse?

Yes, he's identified as a goliath in the strip title and also by Belkar's words. If you're playing a campaign in the OotSverse, you may now roll up a goliath.

[StClair]

Belkar was pretty awesome here, even though he did get gloat-blocked.

[8BitNinja]

Belkar was pretty awesome here, even though he did get gloat-blocked.

That's what happens when you're the shortest guy with the smallest reach

I will never actually know, I'm almost always the tallest in a group for some reason

[Aegis J Hyena]

Belkar gets no love.

At least he gets the chance to send Durkula where he belongs, right?

Yeah, nah. Roy'll steal that kill from him too :smallbiggrin:

[Illsbane]

Don't worry, Belkar. We the readers know how well you did, fighting two vampires without dying - and even learning to plan ahead! Very impressive.

[Peelee]

Even that was overly optimistic. Goliath children play a game called "Stubborn Root" (RoS p. 57) practicing at resisting a bull rush attempt to move them off a spot.

I'm sorry, what OotS book is that?

[Anansiil]

Haha, I was afraid for him at every turn!
A great perk to a horrid day! Cheated out of $1,100 dollars by my boss, a jerk hits my new car and leaves no note... but a new OOTS comic makes every day brighter! :D

[Killer Angel]

Poor Belkar. No satisfaction for you, really... :smalltongue:

[tomandtish]

LOL! and Totally Unfair! Belkar had this down and not even a single gloat. Poor fella, that hurts. I feel for you Belkar.

Agreed. Roy kill stealing when he has his snowball ready? Giant, that was just cold!

[8BitNinja]

Belkar is just reaping what he has sown

[Dunsparce]

I'm sorry, what OotS book is that?

It stands for Races of Stone, a D&D 3.5 book. On top of focusing on dwarves and gnomes, it also introduces the goliath race.

There were four other "Races of" books that put the focus on various races in D&D while at the same time introducing new ones.

[8BitNinja]

It stands for Races of Stone, a D&D 3.5 book. On top of focusing on dwarves and gnomes, it also introduces the goliath race.

There were four other "Races of" books that put the focus on various races in D&D while at the same time introducing new ones.

Aren't Gnomes more of "races of metal" material?

[littlebum2002]

It stands for Races of Stone, a D&D 3.5 book. On top of focusing on dwarves and gnomes, it also introduces the goliath race.

There were four other "Races of" books that put the focus on various races in D&D while at the same time introducing new ones.

What he was trying to say is that there is no evidence that this maneuver exists in the OOTS world. There are many things which exist in the D&D world which don't exist in the OOTS world, and vice versa. We didn't even know if Goliaths existed in this world until recently, so how can we know what their childhood games were?

[ti'esar]

Ahahahaha.

That is all.

[Lingo]

If all you have is a giant hammer, does everyone look like Nale?

...

...

I registered just to make that joke.

...

I'll see myself out.

[Breccia]

It's odd, but this is the very first thing that lept to mind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html) when I saw this strip.

[Porthos]

It stands for Races of Stone, a D&D 3.5 book. On top of focusing on dwarves and gnomes, it also introduces the goliath race.

There were four other "Races of" books that put the focus on various races in D&D while at the same time introducing new ones.

Preeeeeeety sure Peelee realizes this.

As littlebum2002 intimated, Peelee was doing a fairly decent Kish impersonation. :smallwink:

[PallentisLunam]

All hail the sexy shoeless god of war. Praise be to death's lil helper. Ali S Fakenamington floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, seems like Belkar got some what upstaged for this part if the plot. I'm sure he'll have his moment to shine later on though.

[Ruck]

Yep, I can't understand why people constantly think Belkar is about to die.

Yes, there are a whole slew of prophesies. The prophesies aren't particularly ambiguous and between them eliminate almost every commonly suggested way to "cheat" the prophesy. Belkar WILL die prior to the final comic, this is as sure as Elan getting his happy ending is.

That said, why in the world would anyone expect him to be unusually likely to die PRIOR to the final confrontation at the gate in book 7?

Yeah, Rich can surprise me, so he could kill Belkar early, but in a meaningless fight against a minor vampire when Rich still has at least 1.5 books to go?

I tend to agree with this. Although there is a good case to be made that Belkar dies saving Durkon somehow, per Aedrilred's point on page 3.

At first I was thinking there were so many ways Belkar could kill a Goliath (David and Goliath of course leapt to mind)... then as Vaarsuvius headed down to the Moot and Roy set to leave, I was wondering if they'd all converge and save Belkar. And we got Belkar's sarcasm and Roy and Vaarsuvius showing up in the nick of time-- the best of both worlds!

[Dellis]

Is it just me, or THE ENTIRE STRIP is designed to tease Belkar's death? It literally puts the reader in a state of anxiousness.

We know that Belkar's gonna bite it and we expected it to happen around this moment. It stands to reason the author is aware of this, and actually it is probably intended, so he makes use of it.

Note how the dilatation of time through insight in Belkar's fighting plan stretches out the suspance about what's gonna happen in the next panels, pointing the attention to every single move.

Furthermore, note how we usually do not know the character's thoughts in combat - they usually explain the reasoning behind their actions through snarky comments while enacting them - so the situation is doubly anormal.

Not counting that Belkar's thoughts, in almost all panels, are what could be called "death flags": the character which utters them is normally doomed in popular media. "It's fine! I don't need weapons!" "Ok, I can do this. If he does this I'll do that, I can win." "Ok, that did the trick. In a second, I can go in and save the day. Just one more turn." "I'll go for this move... wait... NOW!"

The last one is especially important, since that "NOW!" to which is dedicated an entire full person panel just makes all the tension concentrate, the reader might well expect to see Belkar hit by the hammer midflip in the next panel: it's not random that it's the last panel in the page so you have an interruption before seeing what happened in the next one.

Then we see Roy entering the fray and destroying the vampire before Belkar can be hit (or evade). Totally climatic. Tension explodes, anticlimax, Belkar's safe. Reader breathes.

Last panels, the vampire stretching toward the same PC we know's gonna bite it soon, an heavily wounded PC i might add, whom an health drain could very well kill on the spot - V catches him at the last moment.

If that's not a wink to the readers, I don't know what it is.

What I know is I read every panel with my heart in my throat.

[ti'esar]

I can't speak for what the Giant intended, but I never thought Belkar was going to die in this strip, no. Too funny, and too low-stakes.

Though admittedly I'm not the sort of person who tends to go "is this it?" whenever Belkar finds himself in any sort of violent situation either.

[Hiro Quester]

If all you have is a giant hammer, does everyone look like Nale?

...

...

I registered just to make that joke.

...

I'll see myself out.

Exit well earned. Groaning applause.

[Dellis]

I can't speak for what the Giant intended, but I never thought Belkar was going to die in this strip, no. Too funny, and too low-stakes.

Though admittedly I'm not the sort of person who tends to go "is this it?" whenever Belkar finds himself in any sort of violent situation either.

Well, narratively speaking, insight in thoughts works best when those thoughts are foiled (since that surprises the reader more than when they go through). If they're gonna work and are somewhat clever, better not to show them to the reader before they get done, or it spoils surprise. I think Elan stated it somewhere.

Plus, abnormal situations (knowing a character's battle thoughts, again), are usually a good way to throw readers off-balance before the hit.

And the last panel is undoubtebly that - come on, bad evil guy sneaking up to the back of a character, incidentally, the same we know's gonna die? That can't be unintentional. I'd believe that if the target was V, which for all intents and purposes is probably gonna live this through at least for a while.

EDIT: I can concede the low stakes, good point! ^^ But that just means we 'might' have expected him not to die, not that the strip isn't designed to get you to think that!

[Shining Wrath]

That's what happens when you're the shortest guy with the smallest reach

I will never actually know, I'm almost always the tallest in a group for some reason

I will suggest that most likely the reason is that you're above average height. I'm sorry, I'm an engineer, empirical data is empirical.


If all you have is a giant hammer, does everyone look like Nale?

...

...

I registered just to make that joke.

...

I'll see myself out.

I,for one, welcome our new punishing overlord.

[tcrudisi]

I felt bad for Belkar. I was really wanting to see another moment of awesome.

[Illsbane]

I thought the way he just danced and dodged around a vampiric goliath while winding it up into unthinking rage was quite respectable...

[Sylthia]

Every time I see Belker, I make a point not to overscroll until I'm done reading each row.

[Lkctgo]

Considering how the moot isn't officially over. How can V stroll inside without breaking some archaic rule or another.

[Cizak]

Besides Haley when she was crypto-speaking, is this the first time in this comic a character has had an internal monolouge?

[Keltest]

Considering how the moot isn't officially over. How can V stroll inside without breaking some archaic rule or another.

The moot is officially on pause. Also, the people with the ability to force him out are all dead twice over.

[WickerNipple]

That was a great one, giant. Cheers.

[Jasdoif]

Besides Haley when she was crypto-speaking, is this the first time in this comic a character has had an internal monolouge?Roy identified an internal monologue way back in #46 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html).

[Kish]

Preeeeeeety sure Peelee realizes this.

As littlebum2002 intimated, Peelee was doing a fairly decent Kish impersonation. :smallwink:
Much as I hate to disagree with my invocation, I'd say that now that we have a goliath introduced in a way that suggests his culture is unlikely to be relevant, the book that introduces the race is probably more or less OotS-official, where it doesn't contradict something established.

That said, I think it's a serious mistake to try D&D rules-lawyer number-crunching Belkar's potential success or defeat in battle. That always seems to result in the conclusion, "He couldn't have, and therefore didn't, actually do what he did on a dozen occasions."

[blunk]

Considering how the moot isn't officially over. How can V stroll inside without breaking some archaic rule or another.She just has to stand at the entrance and call for an ush... oh.

[Keltest]

Much as I hate to disagree with my invocation, I'd say that now that we have a goliath introduced in a way that suggests his culture is unlikely to be relevant, the book that introduces the race is probably more or less OotS-official, where it doesn't contradict something established.

That said, I think it's a serious mistake to try D&D rules-lawyer number-crunching Belkar's potential success or defeat in battle. That always seems to result in the conclusion, "He couldn't have, and therefore didn't, actually do what he did on a dozen occasions."

I don't seem to recall Belkar ever knocking anyone larger and sturdier than him any significant distance, off cliffs or otherwise. Belkar is a decent fighter, but prone towards throwing people around like a rag doll he is not. In this case, I think skepticism of whether Belkar could actually achieve what he wanted to is warranted.

[Shining Wrath]

Considering how the moot isn't officially over. How can V stroll inside without breaking some archaic rule or another.

The rules regarding attendance at the moot stop at the golden barrier. The ushers used to prevent people from entering the temple to avoid disturbing the moot, but they are all dead now.

[ChillerInstinct]

I thought the way he just danced and dodged around a vampiric goliath while winding it up into unthinking rage was quite respectable...

Even moreso, when you consider how long he was probably doing it. Dvalin's vote, the vampire Zerg rush, the conversations with Veldrina and Wrecan... all that happened after Belkar climbed back up the mountain. Even if talking was a 100% free action in the OOTSverse, its safe to assume that it's been several minutes. Not bad, considering Belkar's still heavily injured from the fight with the HPoH and probably exhausted from his climb. Especially considering he was completely unarmed aside from the snowballs which probably weren't much more than a mild deterrent even factoring in his thrown weapon proficiency.

Really, Belkar just committed a pretty awesome feat of badassery when you stop to think about it.

[Peelee]

Much as I hate to disagree with my invocation, I'd say that now that we have a goliath introduced in a way that suggests his culture is unlikely to be relevant, the book that introduces the race is probably more or less OotS-official, where it doesn't contradict something established.

That said, I think it's a serious mistake to try D&D rules-lawyer number-crunching Belkar's potential success or defeat in battle. That always seems to result in the conclusion, "He couldn't have, and therefore didn't, actually do what he did on a dozen occasions."
Original intent was more along the lines of "even though this is heavily based on 3.5, the Giant has made it a point that his own world may or may not exactly mirrror official content, and in cases where such abilities, histories, or racial backgrounds are not already introduced, I will assume the stated ideas and plans will work until I am given in-comic reason to suspect otherwise."

I summarized.

If all you have is a giant hammer, does everyone look like Nale?

...

...

I registered just to make that joke.

...

I'll see myself out.
LingoForPres2016

[Doug Lampert]

I don't seem to recall Belkar ever knocking anyone larger and sturdier than him any significant distance, off cliffs or otherwise. Belkar is a decent fighter, but prone towards throwing people around like a rag doll he is not. In this case, I think skepticism of whether Belkar could actually achieve what he wanted to is warranted.
Sure, but that argument doesn't crunch any D&D numbers.

The thing about D&D number crunching of TOotS is that Rich is BETTER at it than many of the self-professed experts who try to nitpick him on this.

If Rich had wanted Belkar to toss the Goliath off a cliff, then Belkar would have tossed the Goliath off a cliff, and if Rich felt like wasting the time, he could crunch the numbers to PROVE that this was reasonable. (We know far too little about the Goliath's actual stats, feats, and level to contradict him on the plausibility of this result.)

Similarly, if Rich had needed the Goliath to be able to resist Belkar's bull's rushes and grapple checks even if Belkar rolls a 20 and the Goliath a 1 (no auto success on a 20 or autofailure on a 1 on checks), then I strongly suspect this could also be done relatively easily. (See not knowing much about this vampire's build.)

So there's no point in crunching numbers to declare an outcome. Within reason this was always going to play out as Rich wanted it to.

Now, it would be OUT OF CHARACTER for Belkar to win by casually tossing a larger foe around, so story logic says Belkar was unlikely to win that way, and story logic is far more reliable in this sort of case than D&D number crunching when one set of numbers is almost entirely unknown.

[8BitNinja]

Sure, but that argument doesn't crunch any D&D numbers.

The thing about D&D number crunching of TOotS is that Rich is BETTER at it than many of the self-professed experts who try to nitpick him on this.

If Rich had wanted Belkar to toss the Goliath off a cliff, then Belkar would have tossed the Goliath off a cliff, and if Rich felt like wasting the time, he could crunch the numbers to PROVE that this was reasonable. (We know far too little about the Goliath's actual stats, feats, and level to contradict him on the plausibility of this result.)

Similarly, if Rich had needed the Goliath to be able to resist Belkar's bull's rushes and grapple checks even if Belkar rolls a 20 and the Goliath a 1 (no auto success on a 20 or autofailure on a 1 on checks), then I strongly suspect this could also be done relatively easily. (See not knowing much about this vampire's build.)

So there's no point in crunching numbers to declare an outcome. Within reason this was always going to play out as Rich wanted it to.

Now, it would be OUT OF CHARACTER for Belkar to win by casually tossing a larger foe around, so story logic says Belkar was unlikely to win that way, and story logic is far more reliable in this sort of case than D&D number crunching when one set of numbers is almost entirely unknown.

We're all still going to crunch numbers

[Keltest]

We're all still going to crunch numbers

Indeed. And if the crunch didn't add up and Rich had it work, I think we would be within our rights to call foul. Belkar weighs like 30 lbs, by his own estimate. Common sense dictates he would more than likely bounce off of a regular armored person, let alone a Goliath. Without the crunch to turn it into a "D&D physics are silly and broken" scenario, he would struggle to get away with it, I think.

[Ruck]

I really like the detail that you can see Roy and Belkar's breath when they speak, but not the vampire goliath's.

[8BitNinja]

Indeed. And if the crunch didn't add up and Rich had it work, I think we would be within our rights to call foul. Belkar weighs like 30 lbs, by his own estimate. Common sense dictates he would more than likely bounce off of a regular armored person, let alone a Goliath. Without the crunch to turn it into a "D&D physics are silly and broken" scenario, he would struggle to get away with it, I think.

If Belkar can weigh 30 pounds and take on a Goliath, then Roy can have a 30 charisma, all my hypotheses are no longer hypotheses, they are theories

[DaggerPen]

If Belkar can weigh 30 pounds and take on a Goliath, then Roy can have a 30 charisma, all my hypotheses are no longer hypotheses, they are theories

I'm... not sure I follow?

[Peelee]

I'm... not sure I follow?

Seconded..

[8BitNinja]

I'm... not sure I follow?

A while ago, on a board about Roy and Celia, I temporarily concluded that Roy had 30 charisma, since things don't have to really make sense in order of the stick if a 30 pound halfling can smash into a goliath without a problem, I can keep my old hypothesis on Roy having 30 charisma

[Whelk]

I don't seem to recall Belkar ever knocking anyone larger and sturdier than him any significant distance, off cliffs or otherwise. Belkar is a decent fighter, but prone towards throwing people around like a rag doll he is not.

Wasn't the plan to goad the goliath into trying to charge him as he stood near the edge, then tripping the goliath so it would go tumbling over the edge thanks in part to its own momentum? I know one of the reasons I enjoy playing halflings is because it's fun to find ways to be effective in physical combat despite size/strength penalties.

[SunnyFox]

I don't seem to recall Belkar ever knocking anyone larger and sturdier than him any significant distance, off cliffs or otherwise. Belkar is a decent fighter, but prone towards throwing people around like a rag doll he is not. In this case, I think skepticism of whether Belkar could actually achieve what he wanted to is warranted.

Think again about his plan. The Goliath charges him, he trips the Goliath. Now the Goliath has a lot of forward momentum (from his own charge) and is off balance. Next, Belkar does a flying leap and hits the Goliath in the back with all the speed he can muster, adding his momentum into the equation. All things considered, that would probably be enough to send the Goliath careening off the cliff.

[Ellye]

You know, I think Belkar's Intelligence score might not be all that bad. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that he has an average Intelligence score or slightly above average, like 10-12 or so.I never understood why people assume that Belkar has low Intelligence.

He has shown understanding of racial and class features even of other classes;

He has always fought in tactical ways, using environment and improvised weapons to his advantage.

[8BitNinja]

I never understood why people assume that Belkar has low Intelligence.

He has shown understanding of racial and class features even of other classes;

He has always fought in tactical ways, using environment and improvised weapons to his advantage.

Maybe a 13?

[Narshe]

Think again about his plan. The Goliath charges him, he trips the Goliath. Now the Goliath has a lot of forward momentum (from his own charge) and is off balance. Next, Belkar does a flying leap and hits the Goliath in the back with all the speed he can muster, adding his momentum into the equation. All things considered, that would probably be enough to send the Goliath careening off the cliff.

Considering "real-world" physics, this. p=mv, and this would be delivered in the form of angular momentum - so it's at least possible. Belkar is a veteran (high-level) warrior, and the knowledge of where to hit people to get the effect he wants is probably instinctive by now, so I would say maybe even probable.

By D&D rules, Belkar'd (small creature) be doing a trip attack against a Goliath (medium creature), which is only one size category higher, and therefore permissible. Whether he'd win a contested strength check at a -4 penalty (I don't remember whether he has enough feats left, apart from what's known in Class & Level geekery, to have taken Improved Trip), I don't know - but it's a plausible plan.

[Roland Itiative]

Poor Belkar, hasn't he learned that if he exposes his plan through thought balloons like that, it's bound to not play out? Elan would facepalm at his inability to think silently.

[Elenna]

Yay, I was actually right about what would happen in OOTS for once! :smallbiggrin: (Totally expected an anticlimax from the beginning of the strip.)


Not counting that Belkar's thoughts, in almost all panels, are what could be called "death flags": the character which utters them is normally doomed in popular media. "It's fine! I don't need weapons!" "Ok, I can do this. If he does this I'll do that, I can win." "Ok, that did the trick. In a second, I can go in and save the day. Just one more turn." "I'll go for this move... wait... NOW!"

I read that as irony - Belkar keeps thinking about how he's going to have this dramatic win, meanwhile we know that Roy is coming down the mountain, probably in time for a funny anticlimax.

But I can definitely see where your interpretation is coming from.


Last panels, the vampire stretching toward the same PC we know's gonna bite it soon, an heavily wounded PC i might add, whom an health drain could very well kill on the spot - V catches him at the last moment.

That might have scared me, since I can see the Giant having the anticlimax and then twisting it again by having Belkar die after he seemed to be safe - except that I didn't actually notice the vampire until the second time I read the strip. :smallredface:


Well, narratively speaking, insight in thoughts works best when those thoughts are foiled (since that surprises the reader more than when they go through). If they're gonna work and are somewhat clever, better not to show them to the reader before they get done, or it spoils surprise. I think Elan stated it somewhere.

Yep, this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html).


And the last panel is undoubtebly that - come on, bad evil guy sneaking up to the back of a character, incidentally, the same we know's gonna die? That can't be unintentional. I'd believe that if the target was V, which for all intents and purposes is probably gonna live this through at least for a while.

Yeah, I'm 99% sure V is not going to die (at least not permanently) at least until the IFCC calls in all of their debt. After that, though, it could easily become a Redemption Equals Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionEqualsDeath) situation.

[Ruck]

If Belkar can weigh 30 pounds and take on a Goliath, then Roy can have a 30 charisma, all my hypotheses are no longer hypotheses, they are theories

Or maybe you're making unfavorable assumptions to derive that it makes no sense. To wit:


Think again about his plan. The Goliath charges him, he trips the Goliath. Now the Goliath has a lot of forward momentum (from his own charge) and is off balance. Next, Belkar does a flying leap and hits the Goliath in the back with all the speed he can muster, adding his momentum into the equation. All things considered, that would probably be enough to send the Goliath careening off the cliff.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Don't care about the rules or the physics, I just want to point out that Roy is going to the left in the big panel and is going to the right in the next one, and it bothers me.

[PallentisLunam]

Don't care about the rules or the physics, I just want to point out that Roy is going to the left in the big panel and is going to the right in the next one, and it bothers me.

He's still traveling in the same direction. It's a camera flip not a mistake. Unless you count crossing the line as a mistake...

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Hmm. I didn't think of a camera flip.

I tend to think of OOTS has happening in two-dimensional space, rather than three.

unrelated: A roy-Vaarsuvius high-five of vampire-wrecking would have been the most amazing thing. Somebody make a poster of that, now.

[PallentisLunam]

I am surprised that Rich has never had a joke where someone masters the art of stealth by learning how to rotate their body about its vertical axis. But then it might be precisely because the comic happens in three dimensional space and not two. Would still make for a good joke, I think.

[Orful Biggun]

Loved this strip, loved the mood whiplash, loved the ego-balloon popping, etc., etc. Awesome all the way 'round.


Yep, I can't understand why people constantly think Belkar is about to die.


It does seem unlikely...
The whole Durkon business on the other hand seems like a genuinely personal one for him ...
Biting it in a confrontation with some random vampire, though, does seem rather unlikely ...

Agree with both of you. It's quite possible to be wrong about this but I personally think that The Giant has a lot more Belkar story left in him yet. And I know I'M not ready to wave goodbye to the little dude, sheesh, you don't realize how much you miss something until it's gone, that's one reason I think this strip was so great, it was almost like a homecoming.


Is it just me, or THE ENTIRE STRIP is designed to tease Belkar's death? ...
What I know is I read every panel with my heart in my throat.

Having said that about not thinking Belkar will die yet, I was just like you, on the edge of my seat.

[Shale]

I can't help but think that Belkar's reaction in panel 17 and 18 is not just to Vaarsuvius' drive-by fireballing but to the fact that a flying tiger just zipped over his head.

[ReturnOfTheKing]

For once, I feel kinda sorry for the little a-hole :smallfrown:

[ReturnOfTheKing]

I can't help but think that Belkar's reaction in panel 17 and 18 is not just to Vaarsuvius' drive-by fireballing but to the fact that a flying tiger just zipped over his head.

Totally missed that the first time, thanks for pointing it out. Wish Rich had positioned the tiger closer to the centre of the frame to emphasize the general ridiculousness of the situation, but whatevs.

[PallentisLunam]

For once, I feel kinda sorry for the little a-hole :smallfrown:

Our sexy shoeless god of war does not take kindly to short jokes. :smalltongue:

[Shadowscale]

Give Belkar the tiger and he's practically an beastmaster at this rate.

[8BitNinja]

Give Belkar the tiger and he's practically an beastmaster at this rate.

No, beast masters don't stab things

[Tobimaro]

Roy did a great job of keeping Belkar alive, and love seeing V get the kill-steal. Belkar just cannot get a break. :smalltongue:

[dsollen]

I'm not sure, but I think this is the first time we actually saw B-man's internal thoughts, not counting when he was talking to figments of his imagination (which, come to think of it has happened a few times).

I must say, his thoughts were...sane. Not a single plot to kill, rape, pillage, or plunder. I know he was sort of focused on the whole defeat the evil vampire thing, but really his internal thoughts seemed both more ordered and decent then most of the things he said out loud. And the sad thing is I find that really disconsorting.

I'm wondering if he is using his craft disturbing mental image skill to mess with me the way he did with by agreeing with Roy just to make him more uncomfortable lol.

[blunk]

No, beast masters don't stab thingshttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/TheBeastmaster.jpg

I know he was sort of focused on the whole defeat the evil vampire thing, but really his internal thoughts seemed both more ordered and decent then most of the things he said out loud.Psychopathy ain't psychosis!

[skim172]

One thing I've realized about the Giant:

He loves an anticlimax.

It's delicious. :smallamused:

[skim172]

Psychopathy ain't psychosis!

Well, he does think imaginary devils talk to him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html).

[Seward]

If Belkar can weigh 30 pounds and take on a Goliath, then Roy can have a 30 charisma, all my hypotheses are no longer hypotheses, they are theories

Belkar can kill ogres and giants, so why not a Goliath?

Seriously, his plan wasn't to bull rush the Goliath anyway. It was to get the stupid thing to charge him, dodge, and have it fail a reflex save and fall down the cliff. That's why he was going to do "a flip".

Also, even if the GM disallowed such use of terrain, Belkar is a high level ranger with pretty good strength, excellent armor class and at least one rage/day, and the goliath is a mid-level cleric with a vampire template. Even if we did assume he needed to use bull rush for this maneuver, the goliath isn't going to hit on the AOO, Belkar is going to hit on the touch attack and his odds of succeeding are decent (it's only one size category different, you can do combat maneuvers in that range).

So Belkar takes a -4 for size, countered by +2 for charge and +2 for raging. We're now looking at raw strength. The whole point of being a TWF ranger is to have a strength emphasis instead of dex, he probably started with a 14ish strength, has statbumped strength at least twice and has at least a +2 strength item, so call it 18 strength. The goliath was a cleric, so he's unlikely to have started with more than 16 str and hasn't statbumped it, but he gets a +2 racial so call it about the same strength before the vampire template. He gets a +6 strength from the template.

So Belker enters into a bull rush contest with about a -3 disadvantage. The thing about bull rush is the d20 looms huge compared to any likely advantage two reasonably strong characters will have. Belkar only needs to roll a 13 when the dude rolls a 10 to push him off the cliff. Hell, even if I'm way off in the strength of the two characters, the Goliath needs a +19 advantage to not be pushed off, and in a str vs str check, that isn't going to happen. So yeah, Rich can right Belkar as pushing anybody off the cliff if he wants to, because as long as the target of the bull rush isn't size large, a good roll by Belkar and a poor one by the other guy will cause him to lose.

That's assuming Belkar isn't getting massive circumstance bonuses from his many rounds of enraging and setting up the attack in the first place, not to mention the snow/ice on the ground etc.

If it was something where BAB comes into play (like grappling, or the way all combat maneuvers work in Pathfinder), Belkar's 15ish BAB would more than crush the goliath's likely 6ish BAB, and their relative strength/size wouldn't be enough to offset that. Belkar could probably have grappled that Goliath into a pin, except that wouldn't have solved his problem, because he could'nt hurt a vampire with his 1d2+strength nonlethal grapple damage.

As an aside, Rich is totally willing to have a character do something they normally can't. Roy bluffed Haley once and went "whew, natural 20 on untrained bluff". If Rich wants Belkar to push the Goliath off the cliff he can lampshade the dice to indicate a strong roll on Belkar's part or a weak roll on the Goliath's part, as he did with Elan's boots of stealth twice, Haley failing to evade maximized fireballs (save DC is too high!", even though save DC on a maximized fireball is always kind of low but the d20 can always mess you up) the cleric vs redcloak "is a 21 enough? no. " and afterlife "wait, I rolled a 22". That means he doesn't establish Belkar as routinely tossing large folks around, but acknowledges that in this world physics it isn't all that unusual for such a thing to happen.

[Morquard]

I mean we saw this whole "I was wrong, you were right" thing coming a mile away, and still i had to laugh out loud when it actually happened.

[Neoriceisgood]

I really had to laugh & actually feel a bit sorry for Belkar.


This is not how he pictured him being proven right to go. :smallbiggrin:

[Cizak]

Hmm. I didn't think of a camera flip.

I tend to think of OOTS has happening in two-dimensional space, rather than three.

Look at the door and the three paths leading away from it. Seems like Roy leaps straight out the door and just continues running forwards, which is where they came from (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html) and probably where the Mechane is still parked.

EDIT: Woops, kind of late to reply to this, maybe. I thought I was on the last page of the thread.

[Kareasint]

Yeah, Belkar, you do that.

Nice comic. It will take a while to get out of there. Everybody keeps leaving the ship.

[Shining Wrath]

Indeed. And if the crunch didn't add up and Rich had it work, I think we would be within our rights to call foul. Belkar weighs like 30 lbs, by his own estimate. Common sense dictates he would more than likely bounce off of a regular armored person, let alone a Goliath. Without the crunch to turn it into a "D&D physics are silly and broken" scenario, he would struggle to get away with it, I think.

If RW physics were reliable in 3.5, a 30 pound person would have a maximum strength of maybe 5, tops. There's no way to have tiny muscles with short lever arms be effective at wielding weapons. And a finesse weapon would still do less damage when wielded by a weak person - a rapier or dagger still relies on the power of the thrust to penetrate. Therefore, the very existence of a martial class halfling means physics is off the metaphorical gaming table. I conclude that if Belkar even exists, he can trip a Goliath, because D&D physics is significantly different than ours, and OotS physics can differ from D&D physics whenever plot and / or humor require it.

[omnitricks]

Oh come on, they didn't just show up Belkar when he was able to show off halfling bad assery.

[Vargtass]

I'm not sure, but I think this is the first time we actually saw B-man's internal thoughts, not counting when he was talking to figments of his imagination (which, come to think of it has happened a few times).



Besides Haley when she was crypto-speaking, is this the first time in this comic a character has had an internal monolouge?

As already pointed out earlier in the thread, the first time would be in strip 42: Belkar unleashed (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html).

[sengmeng]

That goliath vampire got Miko'd!

[Adeptus]

Great strip Giant. You're in good form :smallcool:

[Adeptus]

You know, I think Belkar's Intelligence score might not be all that bad. It wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that he has an average Intelligence score or slightly above average, like 10-12 or so.

It's the wisdom score usually associated with lemmings that's the dump stat.

[KorvinStarmast]

If RW physics were reliable in 3.5, a 30 pound person would have a maximum strength of maybe 5, tops. There's no way to have tiny muscles with short lever arms be effective at wielding weapons. And a finesse weapon would still do less damage when wielded by a weak person - a rapier or dagger still relies on the power of the thrust to penetrate. Therefore, the very existence of a martial class halfling means physics is off the metaphorical gaming table. I conclude that if Belkar even exists, he can trip a Goliath, because D&D physics is significantly different than ours, and OotS physics can differ from D&D physics whenever plot and / or humor require it. Belkar weighing 30 pounds or so is suggested here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) but I agree that a fighter of that size doesn't practically exist in our reality. It takes a world of fantasy and imagination, and stretching things (tall tales, anyone?) to arrive at a warrior in hobbit size. (If the game just did away with gnomes and halflings, would it really lose anything? I don't think so, but others will of course disagree).

[Jay R]

If Belkar can weigh 30 pounds and take on a Goliath, ...

That would be as foolish as a man fighting a bull in an arena.

But it happens.

In both cases, you don't fight strength against strength. You goad the bigger, stronger opponent into charging you, and then dodge the charge.


Belkar weighing 30 pounds or so is suggested here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html) but I agree that a fighter of that size doesn't practically exist in our reality. It takes a world of fantasy and imagination, and stretching things (tall tales, anyone?) to arrive at a warrior in hobbit size.

In any world in which humans can fight dragons, halflings can fight goliaths.


I don't get it. By SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) we shouldn't see X's in the vampire's eyes.

I love it. We have so completely internalized Rich's art style that we believe the SRD refers to X's in corpse's eyes.

[8BitNinja]

In any world in which humans can fight dragons, halflings can fight goliaths.

There were and are people who are much taller and stronger than normal people in real life, those are giants

Small people can take them on in a fight just like any normal person

Now where's a dragon I can kill?

[Bobblit]

Well, count me into the team fearing that Belkar was going to die. Ain't I original.

But, good to see Belkar again! I found the "we literally have bonuses for this" line very funny, although I'm not quite sure why. Must be that the internet has trained me to find everything that contains the word "literally" amusing. :smallamused:

[Shining Wrath]

There were and are people who are much taller and stronger than normal people in real life, those are giants

Small people can take them on in a fight just like any normal person

Now where's a dragon I can kill?


“Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.” G.K. Chesterton

Just look around, 8bit. You'll find one. In fact, the problem is choosing which one.

[8BitNinja]

Just look around, 8bit. You'll find one. In fact, the problem is choosing which one.

I'm going for the big red one, the one that knows powerful magics and can nuke me from outer space

Who is with me?

[PallentisLunam]

I'm going for the big red one, the one that knows powerful magics and can nuke me from outer space

Who is with me?

Only if we can go for a Blue, a Black, a Green, and a White after the first one. I'm a collector at heart :smallwink: sue me.

[obaryb]

I'm the only who still thinks that Belkar will kill the current HPoH and get dusted?

[8BitNinja]

Only if we can go for a Blue, a Black, a Green, and a White after the first one. I'm a collector at heart :smallwink: sue me.

Yes, we will kill all of these

so right now we have

8BitNinja
PallentisLunam
Chuck Norris
The Dragonborn

[PallentisLunam]

So are we being crass and going for the big guns or do we do this right, i.e. bows, arrows, and sharpened steel bars?

[Shining Wrath]

So are we being crass and going for the big guns or do we do this right, i.e. bows, arrows, and sharpened steel bars?

I'm an engineer, a.k.a. Wizard. He'll never know what hit him.

Nuke me from space? I *own* space. I'll bet red dragons never even heard of a Hohmann transfer orbit let alone own a copy of Bate, Mueller, White "Fundamentals of Astrodynamics". We will bring Death From Way Above.

[Seward]

There were and are people who are much taller and stronger than normal people in real life, those are giants

Small people can take them on in a fight just like any normal person

Now where's a dragon I can kill?

Indeed. When I was in college and trying to learn Karate I had the privilege of sparring with a black belt who was perhaps 4 feet 10 inches tall and 90 pounds of lean muscle. I at the time was 6'3" and probably nearly double his weight. He was so freaking fast...my reach meant nothing, my strength meant nothing. Likewise in a proper front stance you can use no effort to resist somebody pushing you with all their might, even if they significantly outweigh you. It's just lever arms with your bone structure, all of their force goes into the ground as long as your technique is right and they don't shift the direction of their push.

As for rapiers, well, in Karate we kept our stances relatively low, for balance and to allow pushing off the ground to get enough power into a punch to have it do anything useful. My friends who fenced had very high stances, because so much power gets concentrated in the point of a rapier that you can use the strength of your wrist alone to kill somebody.

Now in any kind of fantasy world, this stuff is turned up to 11, or even 110. But it's the same idea. Finesse fighters use weapons that concentrate force if technique is correct, strength fighters use something more like a claymore where their ability to whip it around with some speed matters and any hit is nearly as devastating with a blunt weapon as it is with a sharp one, and armor has a harder time defeating it. Endurance fighters like Romans unsurprisingly look like Sword & Board folks.

[Quartz]

I am surprised that Rich has never had a joke where someone masters the art of stealth by learning how to rotate their body about its vertical axis. But then it might be precisely because the comic happens in three dimensional space and not two. Would still make for a good joke, I think.

Funnily enough, there's a D&D spell, Duodimension, which would be epically appropriate for that.

[Khallazar]

"I'll just go get my daggers."

Giant, you rule man. That was a great line. I Love this strip.


More like :belkar:: I'll just go fetch the bits of my shattered pride, if you excuse me...

[littlebum2002]

Indeed. When I was in college and trying to learn Karate I had the privilege of sparring with a black belt who was perhaps 4 feet 10 inches tall and 90 pounds of lean muscle. I at the time was 6'3" and probably nearly double his weight. He was so freaking fast...my reach meant nothing, my strength meant nothing. Likewise in a proper front stance you can use no effort to resist somebody pushing you with all their might, even if they significantly outweigh you. It's just lever arms with your bone structure, all of their force goes into the ground as long as your technique is right and they don't shift the direction of their push.

As for rapiers, well, in Karate we kept our stances relatively low, for balance and to allow pushing off the ground to get enough power into a punch to have it do anything useful. My friends who fenced had very high stances, because so much power gets concentrated in the point of a rapier that you can use the strength of your wrist alone to kill somebody.

Now in any kind of fantasy world, this stuff is turned up to 11, or even 110. But it's the same idea. Finesse fighters use weapons that concentrate force if technique is correct, strength fighters use something more like a claymore where their ability to whip it around with some speed matters and any hit is nearly as devastating with a blunt weapon as it is with a sharp one, and armor has a harder time defeating it. Endurance fighters like Romans unsurprisingly look like Sword & Board folks.

All of this is true (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWxlZ52O0rI)

[StLordeth]

Lol fantastic strip.

[8BitNinja]

So are we being crass and going for the big guns or do we do this right, i.e. bows, arrows, and sharpened steel bars?

What do you want to use?

I'll go with the theme

[PallentisLunam]

What do you want to use?

I'll go with the theme

I've got all of the above, so lets go crazy :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

Does this remind anyone else of the strip from OOPC's where they get into their first fight, and they plan out how everything is going to go and it fails miserably?

I don't know why but that was the first thing I thought of when I read this.

[8BitNinja]

I've got all of the above, so lets go crazy :smallbiggrin:

Let's get some .50 Caliber Machine Guns, mount them on jeeps, and fill 'em with lead

If you wanted to get traditional, we could pack bows, the ones like the bow Ahnold had in Predator

There's also the RPG-7's in the trunk of one of the jeeps, and I put a cooler full of mountain dew in the other

[Ruslan]

Does this remind anyone else of the strip from OOPC's where they get into their first fight, and they plan out how everything is going to go and it fails miserably?

I don't know why but that was the first thing I thought of when I read this.

Actually, reminds of the gladiator training when Belkar is showboating, until Roy gets mad and knocks in back into Basic.

[HandofShadows]

Belkars' theme song today "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" by the Stones. :smallamused:

[Shining Wrath]

Let's get some .50 Caliber Machine Guns, mount them on jeeps, and fill 'em with lead

If you wanted to get traditional, we could pack bows, the ones like the bow Ahnold had in Predator

There's also the RPG-7's in the trunk of one of the jeeps, and I put a cooler full of mountain dew in the other

I was going for wrapping our Paladin in ablative armor, equipping him with a titanium lance, and hitting the dragon from behind with a Paladin doing 20,000 MPH descending from orbit.

Overkill?

If we're taking a dragon out with more prosaic methods I think MANPADs combined with chain guns might be the ticket.

For real fun get an A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog). Heavy armor than the dragon and a "machine gun" that fires depleted uranium rounds each about the size of an ear of corn. Good times!

[Peelee]

I was going for wrapping our Paladin in ablative armor, equipping him with a titanium lance, and hitting the dragon from behind with a Paladin doing 20,000 MPH descending from orbit.

According to KSP, that's not how de-orbiting works.

[Hamste]

Only if we can go for a Blue, a Black, a Green, and a White after the first one. I'm a collector at heart :smallwink: sue me.

I swear if you kill Dudley the dragon I will never forgive you.

[Shining Wrath]

According to KSP, that's not how de-orbiting works.

KSP? Or KSC? Kennedy Space Center I've heard of.

And yes, you'd lose speed coming through the atmosphere, so the ablative armor needs to be ballistic and have some sort of pitch and yaw control.

[Hamste]

KSP? Or KSC? Kennedy Space Center I've heard of.

And yes, you'd lose speed coming through the atmosphere, so the ablative armor needs to be ballistic and have some sort of pitch and yaw control.

I'm guessing Kerbal Space Program the premier means of learning advanced rocket science in these modern times.

[Peelee]

KSP? Or KSC? Kennedy Space Center I've heard of.

And yes, you'd lose speed coming through the atmosphere, so the ablative armor needs to be ballistic and have some sort of pitch and yaw control.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/six_words.png
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/orbital_mechanics.png

/joke

[8BitNinja]

I was going for wrapping our Paladin in ablative armor, equipping him with a titanium lance, and hitting the dragon from behind with a Paladin doing 20,000 MPH descending from orbit.

Overkill?

If we're taking a dragon out with more prosaic methods I think MANPADs combined with chain guns might be the ticket.

For real fun get an A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog). Heavy armor than the dragon and a "machine gun" that fires depleted uranium rounds each about the size of an ear of corn. Good times!

I would be honored to be launched from space into a dragon with a titanium lance, strap me to the rocket

[Kish]

I'm the only who still thinks that Belkar will kill the current HPoH and get dusted?
I would be amazed if you're the only one.

Would you, or anyone else who thinks that, care to make a smaaaaall wager of saaaay, 30 gold pieces?

[PallentisLunam]

I swear if you kill Dudley the dragon I will never forgive you.

So, what you're saying is :belkar: it's worth something to you to keep Dudley safe?


I would be honored to be launched from space into a dragon with a titanium lance, strap me to the rocket

Hey! The only fair way to do this is by lottery. You can't just volunteer and get chosen. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I would be amazed if you're the only one.

Would you, or anyone else who thinks that, care to make a smaaaaall wager of saaaay, 30 gold pieces?

Arrrr, me treasure chest be buried deep in tha Caribbean Isles, else I'd be throwin' me dubloons inta tha pot.

[Kantaki]

Hey! The only fair way to do this is by lottery. You can't just volunteer and get chosen. :smallbiggrin:

:smallamused: Nah, if the Paladin has a deathwish wants to be a hero let him volunteer.
I call dibs on the clean-up duty.How often do I get the chance to raise a dragon and a Paladin as minions? And even if they aren't salvageable I might learn something...:smallamused:

[PallentisLunam]

:smallamused: Nah, if the Paladin has a deathwish wants to be a hero let him volunteer.
I call dibs on the clean-up duty.How often do I get the chance to raise a dragon and a Paladin as minions? And even if they aren't salvageable I might learn something...:smallamused:

But I wanna drop in from orbit and be raised as a cool undead minion. :smallfrown:

[8BitNinja]

So, what you're saying is :belkar: it's worth something to you to keep Dudley safe?



Hey! The only fair way to do this is by lottery. You can't just volunteer and get chosen. :smallbiggrin:

Are you a Paladin too? My order is celebrating it's 1589th anniversary next week (no reason given for this number or date)

If you want to get dropped from space at terminal velocity, you must joust me for it

[PallentisLunam]

Are you a Paladin too? My order is celebrating it's 1589th anniversary next week (no reason given for this number or date)

If you want to get dropped from space at terminal velocity, you must joust me for it

Pft. LN Knight thank you very much.

[ShaneWegner]

OK guys, so I got a ridiculous string of possible inferences as I drifted off to sleep last night and my unconscious took over.

TL:DR- V HAS A PLAN FOR THE DIRECTORS.

0: Although it was masked under humor, V just cast that fire wave thing with no verbal component, apparently with the Silent Spell metamagic feat.
0.1: I'm assuming almost every spell including that flame wave thing ordinarily has a verbal component. If not this entire line is busted.
0.2: I'm ALSO assuming that The Giant is OCD and didn't just forget a detail like that no matter how small it seems by accident.

1- That implies V has leveled at least once lately. The Laurin Shattersmith duel could have done it. Or helping damage control the Mechane (novel use of mechanics), and resisting the lightning bolts of a God (Thor) probably worth something. Or who knows, even a few RP experience points for bonding with Blacking just now. And took the Silent Spell feat. For reasons we'll get to.
1.1- Laurin used Silent Spell metamagic on everything she cast. From her psychological profile, she HATES being touched by magic, and apparently hates telegraphing what she's doing verbally too.
1.2- V saw some value in this approach and has decided to take the feat as well.

2.0- V is probably also planning to take the Still Spell feat.
2.1- Xykon was "teaching" about the utility of getting resistance rings to say, fire, while casting fire spells (such as Still Meteor Swarm) during V and X's duel.
2.2- But casually casting the Still Meteor Swarm while grabbed/grappled by Bixby's Lich-Grabbing Superhand (or whatever) was a lesson in itself. Xykon just keeps on trucking through minor things like full-body incapacitation.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html
2.3- that implies V has been trancing and mentally reviewing the details of this fight, replaying them over and over, cooly analyzing every single tactical aspect.
2.4- that implies that V's iron mind has grown, and V is now willing to replay even humiliating, painful memories in order to learn from them. That represents character growth. V's unwillingness to trance and thus re-live the painful fall of Sapphire City was a strong contributing factor towards the demonic deal anyway.

3.0- V has a very specific plan.
4.0- When V's soul was "timed out" during the critical Girard's Gate incident, the Three Directors strapped V's soul to a manacles board, and then gagged V after V was using the situation to attempt to glean intelligence.

5- I estimate that V is coldly calculating to resist the Three at either V's second or third "time out"! With Still Spell and Silent Spell, V would be capable of casting spells even when strapped to that board and gagged.
5.01- I'm maintaining the assumption that souls and spirits retain the mystic power to cast in these circumstances. V specifically mentioned zhe would retain all spellcasting powers as a ghost and haunt the Order if killed early on. SURELY we've seen other spirit-like entities cast also. (The Ghost Martyrs? The afterlife?)
5.1- V might even have been materially translated to the plane, bypassing the spirit thing altogether. The Three Directors implied V's soul was stripped out of V's body which remained behind, but you know I get the feeling they are willing to let someone believe something not entirely true based off what they say, and perhaps even lie?
5.2- The simplest way I can think of would simply be to cast Planar Shift or Planar Gate and immediately shift back when recalled, robbing the Three of their possession and badly disrupting their plan. The longer one would seem to be the better one to rob, but the third and final one might be better. If V robs the 2nd one, they could immediately or soon thereafter recall V with the 3rd, this time with an unholy array of ways to prevent escape.
5.3- Although The Three are very high level, they're not infinitely high. Middle management. High teens? Low 20s?
5.31- Last possession, Blackwing's soul came along for the ride too, due to being a bounded familiar.
5.32- Blackwing wears a re-shaped ioun stone bracelet, which specifically reduces the effects of level gap on terms of being able to land spells.
5.33- Frustratingly, V's robes and underclothes also translated to the evil plane (denying us a chance to settle the pointless curiosity of V's true sex.)
5.34- It stands to reason that Blackwing's "clothes", ie the bracelet, would translate too.
5.35- I see no reason why the soul image of the stone wouldn't resonate its magical effects even in a spiritual plane. Roy's sword etc worked in his plane.

6.0- V could, in theory, take some offensive spell shots at the Three, possibly even doing serious damage to them in some form or other before escaping. Due to their complete confidence in their situation, they'd be quite flat-footed. They're overconfident and disdainful of restrained mortal souls.
6.1- I don't know what spells in V's arsenal are most likely to injure or otherwise thwart the designs of fiends, daemons and devils, but V does. Prismatic Spray and hope? Plane Shift them into a holy plane and let angels dog pile them? I defer to V's knowledge on this one.
6.2- This implies that V is not passively waiting for the Directors to just have their way. V is slowly, meticulously opening options. That means V is putting in effort to make SOME sort of atonement for the past, in what small ways might work.

7.0- In their gambit to present a very simple contract with almost no riders, the Directors have robbed themselves of usual demonic language. They said "There's no need to trick you when we can get what we want by playing it straight." So there aren't any clauses like "You can't escape" or "If you leave, that stops the clock on our possession" or "You can't attack us". (They lack the humility to consider that even remotely necessary.) So the door is open for V to try something.
7.1- If V could injure one of the directors, there is a possibility one of the others might see it as an opportune time to jump them for some sort of gain. One of them MIGHT have even planned it that way.
7.12- Things look they're going well, but that's what a potential betrayer would WANT them to think, right? And a prisoner escaping like that would be proof that maybe their three-Director team isn't as perfect or as infallible as it might seem.
7.13- It was implied that teaming up like this was kind of a shakey proposition.

Well done, V. I know it might not work, or might only inconvenience them, but I applaud your effort.
If your apprenticeship ends with you becoming an archmage who injured some arch-fiends on the path to saving the world, that would be a pretty legendary tale indeed.

I LOOK FORWARD TO V's VERY, VERY CAREFULLY FORESHADOWED PLANS.

[tcrudisi]

There were and are people who are much taller and stronger than normal people in real life, those are giants

Small people can take them on in a fight just like any normal person

Now where's a dragon I can kill?

Slovenia. (http://abcnews.go.com/International/scientists-eagerly-await-rare-birth-baby-dragons-slovenian/story?id=37308164)

Seriously, they are in Slovenia.

[Mx56]

ShaneWegner - Re: 1.1, Laurin is a psion, not a spellcaster, they don't have verbal or somatic components and hence don't require still or silent spell feats. Not terribly important in terms of the logic of what you're saying, just FYI.

Re: V's spellcasting abilities as a disembodied soul, I don't think we can necessarily assume they'd have any. The souls used for the soul splice explicitly couldn't cast spells without a host body (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html), IMO makes more sense to assume V's status when timed out is analogous to that than specific undead (ghosts) or positive energy variants. Obviously no way to know one way or another until confirmed in comic, but from a story telling POV, suspect that Rich isn't going to let V magic their way out of the consequences of their actions, because I'd argue the consequences of V's actions are the entire point of their arc.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

OK guys, so I got a ridiculous string of possible inferences as I drifted off to sleep last night and my unconscious took over.

TL:DR- V HAS A PLAN FOR THE DIRECTORS.
...

Almost certainly.

V might have levelled up thanks to the fight against Laurin, although V (according to the levels/equipment thread) seems to have levelled up back in 935 and has also been scribing scrolls since then, which takes experience points. Uncertain either way.

I'd also point out that Plane Shift is a Conjuration school spell, which is why V didn't use it to return immediately from the Semi-elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. Ditto for Gate (which V isn't high enough level to cast yet anyway).

My thoughts:

Chances are the fiends are going to want to leave the longest remaining time for last (whether that's the final gate, depriving the Order of V's support against Xykon or whatever), so if they need to grab V before then, they'll use the shorter one. They also need to replace their TV, which may mean their timing of grabbing V could be a little off, so using the shorter time before the longer one makes sense on that count too.

V will probably want to make sure that any actions are going to work - the shorter time would give V a chance to try something small and insignificant that proves it will work without alerting the fiends, before taking them on in the last time.

There's also Sabine, probably Nale, and maybe Thog to account for as well - V could team up with the mostly post-mortem linear guild to take on the IFCC, especially if what V's planning doesn't quite work, and needs Sabine to do something to free V up.

Or whatever V does is enough to allow the Order to locate V, then Durkon can cast something to bring some or all of the Order across to assist - although given the storyline, I think it's V's role to deal with the IFCC, and having the Order help would invalidate that.

[8BitNinja]

Pft. LN Knight thank you very much.

Ah, so you do care about all the honor this task holds

But if you do not want to joust, then I have no choice but to do a much more dangerous form of making this decision

Rock
Paper
Scissors

[Dellis]

I read that as irony - Belkar keeps thinking about how he's going to have this dramatic win, meanwhile we know that Roy is coming down the mountain, probably in time for a funny anticlimax.

But I can definitely see where your interpretation is coming from.

Hm, I can see where you're coming from too. I guess this boils down to wether one expects death or a joke, since your observation - entirely justifiable - means one can read the strip both ways.




That might have scared me, since I can see the Giant having the anticlimax and then twisting it again by having Belkar die after he seemed to be safe - except that I didn't actually notice the vampire until the second time I read the strip. :smallredface:

Hey! Not fair! xD I was there trembling through every panel, and you waltz through it not noticing it? I hate you! xD




Yep, this strip


Thanks, hadn't the time to find it xD



Yeah, I'm 99% sure V is not going to die (at least not permanently) at least until the IFCC calls in all of their debt. After that, though, it could easily become a Redemption Equals Death situation.

Seconded. V's sort of got a Plot Armor 'till he has paid off his debts.

... which may end up being worse than being dead already, too T_T. Bad Evil Fiends. T_T

[Quibblicious]

If RW physics were reliable in 3.5, a 30 pound person would have a maximum strength of maybe 5, tops. There's no way to have tiny muscles with short lever arms be effective at wielding weapons. And a finesse weapon would still do less damage when wielded by a weak person - a rapier or dagger still relies on the power of the thrust to penetrate. Therefore, the very existence of a martial class halfling means physics is off the metaphorical gaming table. I conclude that if Belkar even exists, he can trip a Goliath, because D&D physics is significantly different than ours, and OotS physics can differ from D&D physics whenever plot and / or humor require it.

I'll disagree.

Martial arts training, whether armed or unarmed, is about creating the leverage to move, strike, or otherwise impact your opponent, regardless of your strength. You learn to use the movement and momentum of your opponent to your advantage.

Strength matters little in such cases.

As for outright strength, I'd like to introduce you to the daughter of my HS friend, Ginger Phennel. She's a power lifter.

Like her mother, she's got some form of dwarfism, so she's maybe four feet tall. Basically the high side of halfling size. She probably weighs about 100 lbs, and in pics I've seen her bench pressing 80+ lbs.

Most people can't bench 80 lbs.

So strength isn't so limited in smaller folks.

:smallsmile:

[Quibblicious]

Belkars' theme song today "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" by the Stones. :smallamused:

That reminded me of when Microsoft introduced Windows 95. They payed a ton to use the Stones' song "Start me up".

They had to cut it off in ads right before the "You make a grown man cry" line...

[8BitNinja]

That reminded me of when Microsoft introduced Windows 95. They payed a ton to use the Stones' song "Start me up".

They had to cut it off in ads right before the "You make a grown man cry" line...

Windows 95 does make grown men cry, at least by today's standards

and not in the good way

[littlebum2002]

That reminded me of when Microsoft introduced Windows 95. They payed a ton to use the Stones' song "Start me up".

They had to cut it off in ads right before the "You make a grown man cry" line...


Windows 95 does make grown men cry, at least by today's standards

and not in the good way

Not to mention that the line right after "you make a grown man cry" would be far too inappropriate for a Microsoft ad.

[Willenium]

0: Although it was masked under humor, V just cast that fire wave thing with no verbal component, apparently with the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

What if the speech balloons for the spell were off panel?

[8BitNinja]

What if the speech balloons for the spell were off panel?

Cue the X-Files music

[F.Harr]

Hah ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha


Poor Belkar. He was all set up for his thing and then life happened.

So, does the starmettle play NO role in the glowing green fire? I assume it did, but the same role that extra few BTU's of heat play in pushing water into steam.

[Rift_Wolf]

0: Although it was masked under humor, V just cast that fire wave thing with no verbal component, apparently with the Silent Spell metamagic feat.

What if the speech balloons for the spell were off panel?

Not every spell is said out loud. Zztdri and Xykon have cast without naming their spells before.



So, does the starmettle play NO role in the glowing green fire? I assume it did, but the same role that extra few BTU's of heat play in pushing water into steam.

The Starmetal probably plays some role in the glowing green fire. Maybe becoming a weapon of Legacy makes the effect more dependable.

We know it didn't have that effect before the Starmetal (for Roy) and we never saw it proc for Horace (which doesn't prove anything, but should be addressed for the sake of argument). The Starmetal might've tipped the balance from it being 'magic Sword my grandfather liked' to 'unique and ancestral weapon of my forefathers'.

[8BitNinja]

Not every spell is said out loud. Zztdri and Xykon have cast without naming their spells before.

Please cite, I believe you, but I would like to recall which comics

There's a lot of details to remember

[aurilee]

Not every spell is said out loud. Zztdri and Xykon have cast without naming their spells before.

Sure, but I think in this case the point is that the fire spell V used is one that would normally need a vocal component. Presumably other spells cast without naming them simply didn't have that as a requirement.

Zztdri and Xykon could also have Silent Spell.

[Burner28]

What's the current debate about?

[Ruck]

V also cast Exploding Runes on the phylactery without saying anything. I think Rich just leaves out verbal components when he wants to hide something for plot reasons or when they would be redundant clutter (as seems to be the case here, since the spell is obviously Flame Strike).

[Keltest]

V also cast Exploding Runes on the phylactery without saying anything. I think Rich just leaves out verbal components when he wants to hide something for plot reasons or when they would be redundant clutter (as seems to be the case here, since the spell is obviously Flame Strike).

That seems unlikely, given that Flame Strike is not on the wizard spell list.

[Ruck]

That seems unlikely, given that Flame Strike is not on the wizard spell list.
Okay, I'll admit to not knowing D&D, but it looks just like the Flame Strike spell I've seen in past pages of this comic, so that was the conclusion I made. In any case, is there some roughly equivalent wizard spell?

My point is still the same, that there are reasons to leave the spell name out of the panel that have nothing to do with the Silent Spell feat or any foreshadowing.

[littlebum2002]

I think this is a similar situation to the Harry Potter movies. In that universe, performing a nonverbal spell is extraordinarily difficult, yet witches and wizards are seen doing it very often in the films. I believe it is said somewhere, perhaps in an interview with the author or something, that this doesn't mean everyone knows how to cast every spell nonverbally, but simply that having them always yell the names of their spells during duels would make the movies less exciting.

In the same way, I think having characters in OOTS not say the names of their spells every time is done just to make the comic look better, not to convey what metamagic feats they have.

[Kantaki]

But I wanna drop in from orbit and be raised as a cool undead minion. :smallfrown:

:smallconfused:Wait, you want to be turned into a undead? What in Thargunitoth’s name is wrong with you?:smallconfused: Not that it matters to me. A undead is a undead and volunteers mean a lot less trouble.:smallamused:

What does say about this forum that V not saying the name of the spell she used immediately causes a discussion wether or not he has a plan against the Fiends?
Only good things of course!:smallbiggrin:
I kinda doubt V has any plans to take on the terrible trio - the three seem to be a bit outside her weightclass. He and Roy certainly have something planned to get around the remaining „invitations”.

[8BitNinja]

Kantaki, if you desecrate that Knight's corpse by reanimated, may Heironeous have mercy on you because I will not

[Ruck]

I think this is a similar situation to the Harry Potter movies. In that universe, performing a nonverbal spell is extraordinarily difficult, yet witches and wizards are seen doing it very often in the films. I believe it is said somewhere, perhaps in an interview with the author or something, that this doesn't mean everyone knows how to cast every spell nonverbally, but simply that having them always yell the names of their spells during duels would make the movies less exciting.

In the same way, I think having characters in OOTS not say the names of their spells every time is done just to make the comic look better, not to convey what metamagic feats they have.

Yes, this is essentially what I was trying to say.

[Kantaki]

Kantaki, if you desecrate that Knight's corpse by reanimated, may Heironeous have mercy on you because I will not

Are those threats really necessary? We are all civilized people in a civilized place.
And if that knight wishes to be risen as one of the undead -weird as that may be - who am I to deny it? Does it really matter that much in what form, by what means someone chooses to continue to exist?
Is it that important for you what kind of energy enables the body to move?
Besides, the fact that you intend to launch yourself at a dragon, from orbit no less, makes your threat sound somewhat hollow. I only have to wait until you initiate that crazy plan.

[DaggerPen]

Are those threats really necessary? We are all civilized people in a civilized place.
And if that knight wishes to be risen as one of the undead -weird as that may be - who am I to deny it? Does it really matter that much in what form, by what means someone chooses to continue to exist?
Is it that important for you what kind of energy enables the body to move?
Besides, the fact that you intend to launch yourself at a dragon, from orbit no less, makes your threat sound somewhat hollow. I only have to wait until you initiate that crazy plan.

Not to side my NG self with a necromancer or anything, but, well... I gotta side with the necromancer here. One does have the right to have one's remains disposed of as they wish, so long as it isn't in a way injurious to others. If these two wish to have their little agreement, who's to stop them? :smalltongue:

[PallentisLunam]

:smallconfused:Wait, you want to be turned into a undead? What in Thargunitoth’s name is wrong with you?:smallconfused: Not that it matters to me. A undead is a undead and volunteers mean a lot less trouble.:smallamused:

Preferably something that retains sentience but if that is out of the question then, since my remains do me no good, I'm fine with donating my body to magic. :smallbiggrin:

Just stencil my name on them and don't go terrorizing any villages.

[Jasdoif]

Just stencil my name on them and don't go terrorizing any villages.Wait. Do you mean "don't go to villages with the intent to terrorize them", or "don't go near any villages lest they feel terrorized?" This has come up before....

[PallentisLunam]

What I mean is: Should the honor I amassed in life be tarnished by the actions of my body after death, then my spirit will rise and wreak vengeance upon those responsible. :smalltongue:

[Shining Wrath]

I am afraid I find it amusing that people are citing the achievements of 90 and 100 pound adult humans as evidence that a 30 pound halfling would be capable of human strength. Does the phrase "factor of three" mean anything? So if 100 pound mom can bench press 80 pounds, a proportionately strong 30 pound Belkar bench presses 24 pounds. If swinging a weapon, also reduce by a factor of two for arms half as long.

[skim172]

I am afraid I find it amusing that people are citing the achievements of 90 and 100 pound adult humans as evidence that a 30 pound halfling would be capable of human strength. Does the phrase "factor of three" mean anything? So if 100 pound mom can bench press 80 pounds, a proportionately strong 30 pound Belkar bench presses 24 pounds. If swinging a weapon, also reduce by a factor of two for arms half as long.

Ah, such naivete. That's the problem with humans, always thinking other races are the same as they are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).

See, you all are thinking of halflings as just really small humans. But their biology is utterly different. Unlike humans, halfling bodies are composed entirely of muscle, from skull to hairy feet. This explains how Belkar can leap and flip several times his height despite having stubby little legs - the raw force packed in that dense musculature is like the explosion of several atomic bombs in a single bound.

In fact, halflings are so densely-packed with muscle that the very atoms in their bodies have collapsed under their own gravity into material akin to that of a neutron star. Such is the amount of strength Belkar has. The gravity he generates is so intense that he requires the strength of several gods just swing and move his arms - this is the only reason he doesn't obliterate every enemy with a mere flick of a fingernail.

As for why he only "weighs" thirty pounds, the neutronic composition of a halfling's body is such that technically, he exerts more gravity on the planet than it does on him. When he leaps and jumps around, he's actually pushing the planet around under his feet.

Incidentally, this is why you never see a group of halflings together. Their collective gravitational force could rip apart fabric of space-time. No halfling can ever spend too much time near another halfling, lest they end the planet as they know it. They live solitary lives, separated from their own mothers from infancy, for the sake of the planet. It is a grave burden they bear...

Which is, incidentally, why they're all sociopathic munchkins.They're very disturbed little singularities - and they have no brains, just coiled muscle tissue in their skulls, and collapsed miniature black holes in place of a soul.

[Shining Wrath]

Ah, such naivete. That's the problem with humans, always thinking other races are the same as they are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).

See, you all are thinking of halflings as just really small humans. But their biology is utterly different. Unlike humans, halfling bodies are composed entirely of muscle, from skull to hairy feet. This explains how Belkar can leap and flip several times his height despite having stubby little legs - the raw force packed in that dense musculature is like the explosion of several atomic bombs in a single bound.

In fact, halflings are so densely-packed with muscle that the very atoms in their bodies have collapsed under their own gravity into material akin to that of a neutron star. Such is the amount of strength Belkar has. The gravity he generates is so intense that he requires the strength of several gods just swing and move his arms - this is the only reason he doesn't obliterate every enemy with a mere flick of a fingernail.

As for why he only "weighs" thirty pounds, the neutronic composition of a halfling's body is such that technically, he exerts more gravity on the planet than it does on him. When he leaps and jumps around, he's actually pushing the planet around under his feet.

Incidentally, this is why you never see a group of halflings together. Their collective gravitational force could rip apart fabric of space-time. No halfling can ever spend too much time near another halfling, lest they end the planet as they know it. They live solitary lives, separated from their own mothers from infancy, for the sake of the planet. It is a grave burden they bear...

Which is, incidentally, why they're all sociopathic munchkins.They're very disturbed little singularities - and they have no brains, just coiled muscle tissue in their skulls, and collapsed miniature black holes in place of a soul.

I stand corrected!

But now I'm wondering about Halfling reproduction - sounds like sex could be, er, explosive.

[Keltest]

I stand corrected!

But now I'm wondering about Halfling reproduction - sounds like sex could be, er, explosive.

Halflings form from meteorites. Whenever someone wishes on a shooting star, all the non-happy energy that isn't used in the wish gets used to make a Halfling.

[Rift_Wolf]

Please cite, I believe you, but I would like to recall which comics

There's a lot of details to remember

I'm on the mobile site so can't link. However, the first showdown between V and Z has Z firing Lightning without saying anything, and at the end of the Xykon/V duel, Xykon tears down the walls of his Tower after V and O-chul escape. In the latter case, X was yelling while casting, so the spell he was casting would've been out of place. Likewise, in 1026, when V flies past its a very busy shot; there's a lot of elements we need to see. Having him stuff 'burning hands' into a speech bubble might've been too much clutter in the frame. That's my guess, anyway.


Halflings form from meteorites.

Isn't that a Moby song?

[Quibblicious]

What I mean is: Should the honor I amassed in life be tarnished by the actions of my body after death, then my spirit will rise and wreak vengeance upon those responsible. :smalltongue:

So... making a ghoul is right out?

[Quibblicious]

I am afraid I find it amusing that people are citing the achievements of 90 and 100 pound adult humans as evidence that a 30 pound halfling would be capable of human strength. Does the phrase "factor of three" mean anything? So if 100 pound mom can bench press 80 pounds, a proportionately strong 30 pound Belkar bench presses 24 pounds. If swinging a weapon, also reduce by a factor of two for arms half as long.

The scaling is non-linear, and training matters.

That's my counterargument in a nutshell.

Q

[Quibblicious]

Ah, such naivete. That's the problem with humans, always thinking other races are the same as they are (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html).

...

In fact, halflings are so densely-packed with muscle that the very atoms in their bodies have collapsed under their own gravity into material akin to that of a neutron star. Such is the amount of strength Belkar has. The gravity he generates is so intense that he requires the strength of several gods just swing and move his arms - this is the only reason he doesn't obliterate every enemy with a mere flick of a fingernail.

As for why he only "weighs" thirty pounds, the neutronic composition of a halfling's body is such that technically, he exerts more gravity on the planet than it does on him. When he leaps and jumps around, he's actually pushing the planet around under his feet.



My gods! Chuck Norris is a tall halfling!!


:smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Halflings form from meteorites. Whenever someone wishes on a shooting star, all the non-happy energy that isn't used in the wish gets used to make a Halfling.
This is why we can't have nice things. :smallfrown:

[Pyrous]

Incidentally, this is why you never see a group of halflings together. Their collective gravitational force could rip apart fabric of space-time. No halfling can ever spend too much time near another halfling, lest they end the planet as they know it. They live solitary lives, separated from their own mothers from infancy, for the sake of the planet. It is a grave burden they bear...


There are three halflings at the Godsmoot. Guess how the Gods will destroy the world if Dvalin votes yes.

[8BitNinja]

There are three halflings at the Godsmoot. Guess how the Gods will destroy the world if Dvalin votes yes.

https://thecinematicexperiance.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/lord-of-the-rings-1-the-fellowship-of-the-ring-9.jpg

We are all dead