Jade Phoenix Mage Help

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello Playground!
I find myself building a Jade Phoenix Mage for an upcoming game and I'm quickly realizing I'm in over my head. Are there any tips/tricks you could pass on to me about this class? I was hoping to go Unarmed Swordsage/Sorcerer/Jade Phoenix Mage, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing? Starting level is 6, so I don't qualify for the class yet. But it'll be a fast paced 6-20 game, so I need to plan out my progression. Point buy is 36 with 2 flaws allowed.

Thank you!
-LP

[Cerefel]

First things first, The Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook) is really helpful for all things gishy. Do you want to take the full 10 levels of JPM? It'll likely keep you from getting 9th level spells on a spontaneous caster (without sublime chord anyway).

[LoyalPaladin]

First things first, The Gish Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook) is really helpful for all things gishy. Do you want to take the full 10 levels of JPM? It'll likely keep you from getting 9th level spells on a spontaneous caster (without sublime chord anyway).
Hmm... I'm sort of wondering if Stalwart Battle Sorcerer does everything I want without the loss of caster levels...

[Cerefel]

You could go an alternate route and do something like swordsage 1/bard 5/jade phoenix mage 4/sublime chord 1/jade phoenix mage 6/abjurant champion 3 which would give you 16 BAB and 9th level spells by level 20 as well as an initiator level of 15(.5)

Edit: Build mistake in original posting

[Amphetryon]

General JPM tips:

1. Delay your ToB Class as long as possible: You can get in with a single level of the Initiator Classes in conjunction with your Caster Class, and delaying gives you better access to Maneuvers and Stances.
2. Practiced Caster is a Feat Tax: You need it, barring specific DM Fiat to the contrary. Plan for that.
3. Get what you want, and get out: Unless you're after the JPM 10 ability specifically, you're almost certainly better off staying only long enough to grab whatever goody or goodies caught your eye to begin with, and moving to another choice, such as Abjurant Champion.
4. Mind your Action Economy: As with any Gish, you'll need to pay special attention to how you're using your actions, both to buff yourself and within the combat Rounds once you've entered the fray. Without buffing, you're unlikely to belong in the front lines, but spending too long buffing is a great way to relegate yourself to mop-up duty.

[Gabrosin]

You could go an alternate route and do something like swordsage 1/bard 4/jade phoenix mage 5/sublime chord 1/jade phoenix mage 5/abjurant champion 4 which would give you 17 BAB and 9th level spells by level 20 as well as an initiator level of 15(.5)

You can't get into JPM until seventh level, thanks to the 9 ranks in Concentration requirement.

I second the advice that Sublime Chord is the best way to get to ninths with JPM. Something like <initiator class> 1/Bard 6/JPM 2/<whatever you want> 1/Sublime Chord 2/JPM 8 will get you 9ths at level 20, and up to eighth level maneuvers.

More importantly, though, is getting to actually have fun with the character along the way. The best parts about JPM, in my opinion, are loaded into the first two levels. Once you're in and you've sacrificed a caster level, you may as well take it to level 5.

After level 5, though, you get diminishing returns. You still get full BAB and maneuver progression, which is great, but you also have to give up another caster level. If what you want is to maximize your arcane casting, you could drop out there, go into Abjurant Champion or another gishy PrC. Something like Sorcerer 5/Swordsage 1/JPM 2/Abj. Champ. 5/Spellsword 1/Ruathar 3/JPM 3 would get you 9ths and BAB +16 at level 20, at least under fractional rules. If you can swap Ruathar for something else that gives full BAB and casting for three levels, that would get you there too. What you lose here are maneuvers... you'd get a bunch of level 2s early on, and then you could sprinkle in JPM 3-5 when you wanted more, but your IL at 20 is only 13. You can supplement with feats, but if you're in JPM for a good maneuver progression, you might consider giving up the dream of 9th level casting and going something like Sorcerer 4/Swordsage 2/JPM 10/Swordsage 4. Now you'll hit 9th-level maneuvers while still having a ton of spells to fuel your JPM class abilities.

[LoyalPaladin]

You could go an alternate route and do something like swordsage 1/bard 5/jade phoenix mage 4/sublime chord 1/jade phoenix mage 6/abjurant champion 3 which would give you 16 BAB and 9th level spells by level 20 as well as an initiator level of 15(.5)

Edit: Build mistake in original posting
I think I'm suffering from build schizophrenia. I know I want to be a spontaneous caster with a lot of elemental casting. (Fireball, Lightning Bolts, etc.) While fighting unarmed, (which sounds like UA Swordsage to me...)


General JPM tips:

3. Get what you want, and get out: Unless you're after the JPM 10 ability specifically, you're almost certainly better off staying only long enough to grab whatever goody or goodies caught your eye to begin with, and moving to another choice, such as Abjurant Champion.
These are all really helpful in general... #3 really made up my mind, though. I think I'm going to go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and dip into UA swordsage. The real reason I like JPM is the capstone... it's just so cool! Haha.

[Cerefel]

Blasting and gishing tend to be pretty hard to mix without something like the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling ability to let you use damage spells with weapon attacks.

[darksolitaire]

You can't get into JPM until seventh level, thanks to the 9 ranks in Concentration requirement.

You can, but it means you're taking two feats from cityscape to raise concentration above maximum. That's a pretty heavy investment unless you're playing human Wizard or can take flaws.

[Gabrosin]

You can, but it means you're taking two feats from cityscape to raise concentration above maximum. That's a pretty heavy investment unless you're playing human Wizard or can take flaws.

Fair point. You can also do it with stuff like UA's Item Familiar. Early entry methods are frowned on by most DMs, but as always, check with yours if you want to try for it.

[Cerefel]

I made a mistake in my first posting of the build which I have since corrected.

[Aleolus]

Speaking personally, I enjoy using Warmage for the arcane side to get into the class. Limits your out of combat utility, but by god can you make things blow up

[Kelb_Panthera]

OA has a variant for the sorcerer that replaces his class spell list with the wu-jen spell list. It's not nearly as good, in general, as the sorc/wiz list but it is very thematically appropriate for a gish and particularly a gish of the type you're building. Might be worth a consideration.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Blasting and gishing tend to be pretty hard to mix without something like the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling ability to let you use damage spells with weapon attacks.

This is very true. Not only are the build requirements completely different (blasters want metamagic, martial adepts want melee feats), you'll also run head first into the action barrier.
You only have so many things you can do in a round, and martial adepts are generally heavy on both standard and swift/immediate actions.
That meshes very well with a gish that focuses on buffing and out-of-combat utility, but it really doesn't work well with a blaster build.
Not to mention that there's no synergy between the two playstyles at all. Anything you get that increases your blasting does nothing for your martial side, and it's the same way for anything you get to improve your initiating.

The second problem is that battle sorcerer is really bad. You already have very limited spells known, and losing one more per level really cripples your casting.
Sorcerer in general has the problem that it is already a level behind in progression compared to other casters, so losing caster levels for JPM hurts them even more. Not an insurmountable problem, but something to consider.
I'd suggest either Wizard or Wu Jen for a JPM build. Wu Jen especially works really well with JPM at higher levels thanks to Body outside Body (among other spells), but it loses a lot of versatility compared to a wizard.

[Gabrosin]

Speaking personally, I enjoy using Warmage for the arcane side to get into the class. Limits your out of combat utility, but by god can you make things blow up

If you're going JPM, really all you want is something with a lot of spells you can then burn for Arcane Wrath. If you want to be a blaster mage, then be a blaster mage. Gaining a small handful of maneuvers from JPM isn't worth dropping two caster levels along the way, and the BAB gains won't help most elemental spells more than being able to cast more higher-level spells.

If you're going to punch things in the face, and you want to burn spell slots to punch things better and harder, JPM is a great choice. Getting +4 to hit and +1d10/lvl to damage isn't bad, as long as your fist is also geared to do a lot of damage. If JPM is your only real source of damage, then just casting the spell would be wiser. But at level 8, the Mystic Phoenix stance's bonuses, especially getting DR 6-8-10/evil all day by burning one spell slot, can go a long way.

[LoyalPaladin]

Is it possible to pull from other spell lists as a Sorcerer? The Wu Jen spell list seems really lack luster, but I do like a couple of its spells.

[Troacctid]

Is it possible to pull from other spell lists as a Sorcerer? The Wu Jen spell list seems really lack luster, but I do like a couple of its spells.

It's not impossible. The Sorcerer's spellcasting ability says that they may be able to learn other spells through special study or something. Ask your DM about spell research.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Wouldn't enlightened fist do the elemental punching thing better? Level 3 provides the channel spell, which means less action economy overlapping, and you still get to punch things. Grab 4 levels, then head into abjurant champion and continue on.

[Troacctid]

You don't even need Enlightened Fist to channel touch spells through a punch. Any caster with Improved Unarmed Strike can punch their enemy in the face as part of casting a touch spell, if they're so inclined. Enlightened Fists just get to do it on a full attack (and for more damage).

[Kelb_Panthera]

You don't even need Enlightened Fist to channel touch spells through a punch. Any caster with Improved Unarmed Strike can punch their enemy in the face as part of casting a touch spell, if they're so inclined. Enlightened Fists just get to do it on a full attack (and for more damage).

and with rays if you stick around that long.

[Darrin]

Is it possible to pull from other spell lists as a Sorcerer? The Wu Jen spell list seems really lack luster, but I do like a couple of its spells.

Transcend mortality is usually the cherry on top of the sundae, although body outside body on a Martial Adept is definitely an eye-opener. Wu-Jen 5/Warblade 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4 I think is the typical build?

[Val666]

Please someone make this clear for me. There's this quote in Body Outside Body spell:


"They can do anything you can, except cast spells or use spell-completion or spell-trigger items."

I understand that spell-like abilities are different from spells, so Body Outside Body doesn't restrict spell-like abilities. If this is approved you can go Wu-Jen 5/Crusader or Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Archmage 4. It's a bit late game but use the High Arcana: Spell-Like Ability to turn Body Outside Body, Giant Size and Trascend Mortality into spell-likes. Proceed to create a bunch of copies (all with lower hp than the other), apply Giant Size, Trascend Mortality, etc. You can also create the biggest Emerald atomic bomb ever because Emerald Immolation is also a spell-like.

Is this possible :v?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Please someone make this clear for me. There's this quote in Body Outside Body spell:


"They can do anything you can, except cast spells or use spell-completion or spell-trigger items."

I understand that spell-like abilities are different from spells, so Body Outside Body doesn't restrict spell-like abilities. If this is approved you can go Wu-Jen 5/Crusader or Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Archmage 4. It's a bit late game but use the High Arcana: Spell-Like Ability to turn Body Outside Body, Giant Size and Trascend Mortality into spell-likes. Proceed to create a bunch of copies (all with lower hp than the other), apply Giant Size, Trascend Mortality, etc. You can also create the biggest Emerald atomic bomb ever because Emerald Immolation is also a spell-like.

Is this possible :v?

Not only possible but detailed before in a guide on body outside body somewhere on the forum.

Also, in before Naruto joke.

[LoyalPaladin]

Also, in before Naruto joke.
It's funny you say that, since this build was originally intended to mimic a certain Naruto character (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Madara_Uchiha)... it may not be the world's best series, but it had some cool characters.

[Cerefel]

It's funny you say that, since this build was originally intended to mimic a certain Naruto character (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Madara_Uchiha)... it may not be the world's best series, but it had some cool characters.

In that case, Wu Jen could probably replicate a lot of his flavor, especially in combination with maneuvers and stances allowing for more spontaneous combat-oriented abilities.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's funny you say that, since this build was originally intended to mimic a certain Naruto character (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Madara_Uchiha)... it may not be the world's best series, but it had some cool characters.

If you're doing Madara then you'll need to go with wizard. The wu-jen list just doesn't have the punch to match him.

I actually do enjoy Naruto Shippuden. I just wanted to call it out before the bad puns started. That said, Madara's just not fair. He told being dead to go screw itself and made it listen in a world where res magic just about doesn't exist at all.

[LoyalPaladin]

If you're doing Madara then you'll need to go with wizard. The wu-jen list just doesn't have the punch to match him.
Build suggestions? I felt that spontaneous casting was more Naruto-esque.


I actually do enjoy Naruto Shippuden. I just wanted to call it out before the bad puns started. That said, Madara's just not fair. He told being dead to go screw itself and made it listen in a world where res magic just about doesn't exist at all.
I don't mind it. It's entertaining, to say the least. Madara is the only character that grabs my attention every time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Build suggestions? I felt that spontaneous casting was more Naruto-esque.

What I meant was more the sorc/wiz spell list than, necesarrily, the wizard class itself. A full build will take a while to pull together to match all of the techniques he's displayed use on. Come to think of it though, an archivist RKV might be a better fit than anything arcane.

Give me some time and I'll see what I can come up with.

[LoyalPaladin]

What I meant was more the sorc/wiz spell list than, necesarrily, the wizard class itself. A full build will take a while to pull together to match all of the techniques he's displayed use on. Come to think of it though, an archivist RKV might be a better fit than anything arcane.

Give me some time and I'll see what I can come up with.
Thanks for the help, Kelb!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thanks for the help, Kelb!

No problem.

Quick question: would being Good pose a problem?

[LoyalPaladin]

No problem.

Quick question: would being Good pose a problem?
Not at all. I'm actually playing this character as good.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So here's what I'm thinking;

Archivist 5/warblade 1/JPM 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/RKV 5/JPM +1/ <X>

Feats at 3 and 6 are southern magician and alternative source spell so that you're casting both arcane and divine spells.

For the last 4 levels I was thinking wyrm-wizard to pick up body outside body and giant size to fluff as shadow clones and susanoo. This will leave you casting as a 15th level archivist and sitting at IL 15 and a native BAB of 16 (or 15 if you're not using fractional). Now I know that doesn't sound great, but consider this; you have access to -all- divine spell lists. This feels like a good fit for Madara's extremely broad list of techniques known. You have several of the better features of both of the caster/initiator hybrids and you have the unquestionably immense power of a 15th level caster. You're not quite as good as a straight T1 but no gish can be so "big deal."

If the DM calls BS on JPM advancing archivist (it's the class you're preparingn and casting arcane spells with, so how is that not an arcane spellcasting class?) then you're back to a bog-standard sorcerer/initiator/ JPM/ wyrm wizard build using arcane preparation to qualify for wyrm wizard so you still get those two spells for his iconic abilities. You could just as easily go with two levels in wyrm wizard and cheese some other way of spamming a replica creation spell like, perhaps, simulacrum or even project image but I'd stick with wyrm wizard.

Eeking out the last two levels of spellcasting is going to force you to give up something. You could give up BOB and giant size and not lose levels to wyrm wizard. You could give up a -lot- of power and build on a wu-jen base, or you could give up the martial adept angle and have both magical power, BOB, and giant size. Stupid wu-jen only spells.

How's that grab you?

[LoyalPaladin]

So here's what I'm thinking;

Archivist 5/warblade 1/JPM 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/RKV 5/JPM +1/ <X>

Feats at 3 and 6 are southern magician and alternative source spell so that you're casting both arcane and divine spells.

For the last 4 levels I was thinking wyrm-wizard to pick up body outside body and giant size to fluff as shadow clones and susanoo. This will leave you casting as a 15th level archivist and sitting at IL 15 and a native BAB of 16 (or 15 if you're not using fractional). Now I know that doesn't sound great, but consider this; you have access to -all- divine spell lists. This feels like a good fit for Madara's extremely broad list of techniques known. You have several of the better features of both of the caster/initiator hybrids and you have the unquestionably immense power of a 15th level caster. You're not quite as good as a straight T1 but no gish can be so "big deal."

If the DM calls BS on JPM advancing archivist (it's the class you're preparingn and casting arcane spells with, so how is that not an arcane spellcasting class?) then you're back to a bog-standard sorcerer/initiator/ JPM/ wyrm wizard build using arcane preparation to qualify for wyrm wizard so you still get those two spells for his iconic abilities. You could just as easily go with two levels in wyrm wizard and cheese some other way of spamming a replica creation spell like, perhaps, simulacrum or even project image but I'd stick with wyrm wizard.

Eeking out the last two levels of spellcasting is going to force you to give up something. You could give up BOB and giant size and not lose levels to wyrm wizard. You could give up a -lot- of power and build on a wu-jen base, or you could give up the martial adept angle and have both magical power, BOB, and giant size. Stupid wu-jen only spells.

How's that grab you?
That looks really great and really fits! I think that many classes might get a book thrown at me if I try it at our table... but someday they have to let me do it...

[darksolitaire]

If the DM calls BS on JPM advancing archivist (it's the class you're preparingn and casting arcane spells with, so how is that not an arcane spellcasting class?) then you're back to a bog-standard sorcerer/initiator/ JPM/ wyrm wizard build using arcane preparation to qualify for wyrm wizard so you still get those two spells for his iconic abilities.

Generic Spellcaster from Unearthed Arcana would be a good fit since it's basically sorcerer with access to druid and cleric spell lists. If allowed. Needs a DM who is on board with the build idea obviously :smalltongue: