Problems with a Gunslinger

[GoldMonk]

I'm playing through my first game of Pathfinder with friends. They drew me in and I've been having a great time... Until recently. Our gunslinger class has lately emerged as an immensely powerful character, hitting even on natural 1's, and dealing over a hundred damage every turn. Good for him, I would have said. Were it not for the fact that my Paladin hasn't had a chance to be in combat the last four sessions. And that's all I'm good at. We have a bard for social and knowledge skills, a cleric for heals, a druid for aoe casting, and now this gunslinger handles ALL single target DPS. Am I just being a poor sport? I feel like my presence in these sessions are completely irrelevant, and for the fist time since we've started six months ago, I'm not excited for further sessions. Any advice on how to feel relevant, or should I just suck it up?

[Geddy2112]

This is just what gunslingers do-at mid level, they simply dominate damage dealing and that is that. Big enemies have garbage touch AC so its literally the broad side of a barn. However, there is no way to hit on a natural 1 according to the rules, so either they have a way to re roll attacks or your DM has houseruled that you can hit on a natural 1(which should be a misfire). If your DM has ruled that you can hit on a natural 1 with an attack, I would beg them to reconsider because that hoses you.

Your DM should balance out combats so you don't just blow everything away-hordes of small enemies, things with huge bonuses against ranged attacks, enemies that close and grapple, throw will saves at the gunslinger, etc. Enemies should have DR to at least slow down the torrent of bullets. DM's need to enforce loading times, misfires, and ammunition. If ammo is common and they are using dual revolvers with rapid reload, well you are basically screwed.

One enemy you could request your DM throw at you is a ghost. They are incorporeal, so even if the gunslinger hits it will be half damage. Their AC is their touch AC so the gunslinger will have trouble hitting. The best part is that they are evil, so you will get to smite them, do absurd damage, and look like a total bamf(I mean, you are the paladin, killing evil is kind of your thing). The cleric can channel energy and help there too. Another option would be taking the tank/shield role for the party. I doubt your gunslinger friend is setup to take a beating and continue on, but you sure as hell can. Tie up hordes of things and slice and dice, using lay on hands to stay in the fray long after you should have gone down.

First, talk to the gunslinger and let them know you feel useless and are not having fun.Then, talk with your DM, and let them know that you are not having fun and see if they can change up the encounters.Both the DM and player probably don't know and I doubt they want to make you feel useless. If they are nice but nothing changes, maybe roll up a new character. If they tell you "too bad","learn to optimize" or " lol screw you" then leave the group. Don't play in a game you don't have fun in, and certainly don't play with people who don't like you(but I don't think the latter is the case).

[Arutema]

hitting even on natural 1's

A natural 1 always misses, and unless you take great precautions otherwise, a firearm misfires on a natural 1 and must be cleared or risk exploding. Most misfire on a natural 2 as well.

I'm not saying they're well-balanced, but they are especially broken if you go breaking the rules.

[GoldMonk]

A natural 1 always misses, and unless you take great precautions otherwise, a firearm misfires on a natural 1 and must be cleared or risk exploding. Most misfire on a natural 2 as well.

He claims to have taken a feat that means he hits as long as his attack surpasses the opponents touch AC, natural ones or no. I don't know if it's a gunslinger perk or a mythic one (he's a champion and a musket master). But he took two rounds--one surprise and he rolled highest initiative on the next-- to kill the big bad that was supposed to summon zombies for "the rest of us". I think I will speak to the GM, cause I think he feels thwarted as well, but I don't want to call out my friend on cheating without evidence, especially with how new I am to the game.

[Florian]

I'm playing through my first game of Pathfinder with friends. They drew me in and I've been having a great time... Until recently. Our gunslinger class has lately emerged as an immensely powerful character, hitting even on natural 1's, and dealing over a hundred damage every turn. Good for him, I would have said. Were it not for the fact that my Paladin hasn't had a chance to be in combat the last four sessions. And that's all I'm good at. We have a bard for social and knowledge skills, a cleric for heals, a druid for aoe casting, and now this gunslinger handles ALL single target DPS. Am I just being a poor sport? I feel like my presence in these sessions are completely irrelevant, and for the fist time since we've started six months ago, I'm not excited for further sessions. Any advice on how to feel relevant, or should I just suck it up?

Yes, you´re (partly) a spoil-sport here.

The Gunslinger does what the class is meant to: Massive single-target damage. That´s what the "mundanes" are there for. That kind of efficiency is traded for being able to cast spells and flexibility there.

I´m rather worried why your Paladin can´t to pull that off. PF Paladins are extremely hard hitters and should be able to out-perform a Gunslinger when Smite is up.

[TheIronGolem]

He claims to have taken a feat that means he hits as long as his attack surpasses the opponents touch AC, natural ones or no.

Never heard of such a feat, not even third party. Definitely find out what this feat is and where it's from, because I very much doubt it works that way.


but I don't want to call out my friend on cheating without evidence, especially with how new I am to the game.

That's a good instinct and you should follow it. Give your friend the benefit of the doubt unless/until he's caught straight up cheating; even if he's wrong about this "hit on a 1" feat it might be an honest mistake. Assume it is until proven otherwise.

That said, Florian's point is also valid. Gunslingers do exactly one thing in PF: deal Big Damage to single targets at range. Paladins, on the other hand, can do quite a few things. Whatever the solution to this problem ends up being, it should still leave the Gunslinger's ability to put big holes in bad guys intact, and your encounters should take that ability into account.

[AvatarVecna]

He claims to have taken a feat that means he hits as long as his attack surpasses the opponents touch AC, natural ones or no. I don't know if it's a gunslinger perk or a mythic one (he's a champion and a musket master). But he took two rounds--one surprise and he rolled highest initiative on the next-- to kill the big bad that was supposed to summon zombies for "the rest of us". I think I will speak to the GM, cause I think he feels thwarted as well, but I don't want to call out my friend on cheating without evidence, especially with how new I am to the game.

While this particular thing is BS (musket master gives jo such benefit, and I'm pretty sure Mythic doesn't either), that doesn't get around the issue with gunslingers: namely, that they dominate the DPR game, which will almost always be true. I've built 20th lvl Gunslingers that can one round kill anything of equal CR or lower, given the right equipment, and I've built gestalt gunslingers that can increase that from "equal CR" to "anything except the three most power SRD foes"...and even then, Orcus and the Pinodaemon are like 2-3 round kills (but it wonct happen since they'll toast the gunslinger on their turn), with Lucifer being the only one where it's not even remotely feasible that my build could get lucky enough to one round kill.

Some solutions to this are to present foes that mitigate the gunslingers advantages (high Touch AC, better range, incorporeal, etc) or to present challenges that canct be immediately overcome with a hail of bullets; including some kind of puzzle element will make things much more interesting overall, I think.

[ATHATH]

Is 3rd edition stuff allowed? You could take DMM and/or Sword of the Arcane Order and serve as the party's arcane caster/buffer. Sanctified spells are also quite cool.

[Necroticplague]

Can you ask him for the name of that feat? If it actually exists, I'd be really interested.

But anyway, to the main topic: the problem seems to be more with your paladin than the gunslinger. Paladins are a hybrid class who can do several different things mediocerly. Gunslingers are a specialist class that do exactly one thing, and do it well. If your paladin is being built for just damage, that's the problem. The gunslinger will pretty much always have you beat there, because he's sacrificed pretty much everything else. Find a niche the other aren't filling and slot yourself in.

[DaedalusMkV]

While this particular thing is BS (musket master gives jo such benefit, and I'm pretty sure Mythic doesn't either)
Mythic does give access to an ability, Always a Chance, which causes attack rolls of a natural 1 to hit if the attack would exceed the enemy's AC. This ability would not work with non-Advanced firearms, obviously, because the Misfire rules override the standard to-hit rules and straight-up say that any Misfire result always misses, so unless he's got some sort of house-rule or custom magic item going on he should not be hitting on a natural 1, because that will always be a Misfire with a musket.

Moreover, if he's Full Attacking with a Musket, it means he's using alchemical cartridges. And that should mean he's hitting Misfires on a 2 or less, at best. The Misfire rules are the primary limitation to Gunslinger DPR at high levels*, and just ignoring them as seems to be happening in this game is a great way for them to get way out of hand. Without that 10% chance of missing and needing to spend an action to remove the broken condition**, Gunslingers are obviously just going to demolish everything that doesn't one-shot them first.

*Unless Advanced Firearms are allowed, in which case you might want to start seriously boosting your monsters' Touch AC or handing out hard-to-ignore DR to pretty much everyone, because a Gunslinger dual-wielding revolvers with a third arm option to reload and Rapid Reload is going to pretty much kill everyone who isn't specifically built for not getting killed by guns. Especially with Mythic on the table, you can't assume large hordes will do anything either. If he takes the right Path Ability, he'll just put a bullet in each and every one of them as a Swift Action by spending two Mythic Power points then get back to murdering your boss monster.

** Yes, he could have taken Legendary Item to make it an Artifact weapon and thus be indestructible through conventional means. A broken musket Misfires on a 1-6 with Alchemical cartridges. At that point, you're just an archer with really expensive ammunition.

[Necroticplague]

Mythic does give access to an ability, Always a Chance, which causes attack rolls of a natural 1 to hit if the attack would exceed the enemy's AC. This ability would not work with non-Advanced firearms, obviously, because the Misfire rules override the standard to-hit rules and straight-up say that any Misfire result always misses, so unless he's got some sort of house-rule or custom magic item going on he should not be hitting on a natural 1, because that will always be a Misfire with a musket.

Not a custom magic item. There's a wondrous item that makes a little spider that sits on your gun and cleans it between shots, which gets rid of the misfire chance. I'm pretty sure there are a few ways a gun can be enchanted to not misfire, as well (off the top of my head, Reliable can reduce it, while Greater Reliable can pretty much eliminate it altogether, there might be a musket equivalent to Pistol of the Infinite Sky I don't know of).

EDIT: Figurine of Woundrous Power (Slate spider).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that your DM isn't familiar with gun-fighting tactics. If so, point a few things out to him;

Cover is your friend. If the room has a table, overturn it and keep it between you and the gun. If there's a corner to duck behind, duck behind it. If there's an expendable minion nearby, put him between you and the gun. The bonus from partial cover is an unnamed bonus and counts against everything while total cover prevents a hit altogether. Likewise, crossfire is also your friend. Thrown weapons, bows, crossbows, ranged spells, and guns are all options to return fire without giving up cover and allow you to withdraw from combat -and- attack on the way out. People aren't -typically- eager to rush into oncoming fire.

Pretty much ever since guns came into common use people have been rightly afraid of being on the wrong end of one because they are -very- good at dealing significant damage even through armor. Consequently, the above tactics quickly became broadly known by successful gun-fighters while unsuccesful ones were elimiated quite quickly, usually with a bullet in them whether it proved lethal or not.

Pass that along to your DM and see if things don't get at least a little better.

Also; adding to the voices of people that say a feat/feature/what-have-you that eliminates the consequences of natural 1's for a gunslinger is stupidly overpowered and doesn't sound kosher.

[GoldMonk]

Yeah, he has the Mythic Feat "Always a Chance." As to avoiding misfires, all he said is he has a "Gunslinger Perk." At the risk of sounding petulant, I didn't find anything, so that may be something we have a conversation about with the GM. Now, I do appreciate the advice of talking with the GM about making encounters to be "Gunslinger Resistant." I get the feeling he isn't too happy with it either. Hopefully with all that, my Paladin can get back to being the front-line tank he was at the beginning of the campaign.

[Extra Anchovies]

The problem here is first and foremost in the Pathfinder firearm system. Weapons deal damage through successful attacks against normal AC; every rule and option that affects weapon use is designed and balanced with that in mind. Introduce weapons that deal damage through attacks against touch AC, and some of the rules and options become unbalanced. The solution is to lock Gunslingers into Bolt Ace, and maybe let characters refluff their crossbows as guns if firearms fit in the setting.


EDIT: Figurine of Woundrous Power (Slate spider).

Oh, that is so cool. Link (http://www.pfsdb.com/magicitems/figurines-of-wondrous-power-slate-spider) for the lazy. I'm surprised that it's so pricey for a 1/day effect, though.

[TheYell]

I'm a monk with a gunslinger backup, and I just charge in swinging and let him worry about the +4 he has to roll to avoid hitting me. Usually he does.

[Anlashok]

The problem here is first and foremost in the Pathfinder firearm system.
While partially true, an archer or THFer or a mounted charger ... or a paladin is going to be just as destructive.

The main problem here is that the DM is building encounters to the gunslinger's strength (a single enemy at close range with an apparently manageable touch AC and no special defenses of any kind) and the paladin is losing initiative.

Likely if the paladin was the one winning initiative it'd be the gunslinger complaining about the same thing.

[Arutema]

Yeah, he has the Mythic Feat "Always a Chance." As to avoiding misfires, all he said is he has a "Gunslinger Perk." At the risk of sounding petulant, I didn't find anything, so that may be something we have a conversation about with the GM. Now, I do appreciate the advice of talking with the GM about making encounters to be "Gunslinger Resistant." I get the feeling he isn't too happy with it either. Hopefully with all that, my Paladin can get back to being the front-line tank he was at the beginning of the campaign.

Ah, I am guessing he's using the first printing of Ultimate Combat. The sentence "At 13th level, a musket master never misfires with a two-handed firearm." was stricken from the second printing by errata.