Evil Cleric of Loviatar, roleplay help?

[Jarmen4u]

Hey guys, I've got this character idea that I want to really get into, but I'm having a hard time fleshing out the roleplay aspect of it.

She's a LE cleric of Loviatar, goddess of pain and femdom. One of the tenets is that the character self-flagellates during her prayers to get her spells.

Now without getting too magical realm/fetish-y, how can I swing this as a serious character?

[gfishfunk]

I think its step by step. Answer these questions in order, and you will have a personality and style to play. Stop when you feel like you have a good character.

1. Why is she a priest / cleric to this god in particular? What happened to get her there?
2. What does she hope to achieve?
3. What is one redeeming thing about her (even though she is lawful evil)? A thing that you would generally associate with good.
4. What is one non-evil habit that she does consistently? What makes her laugh?
5. What is her flaw?
6. Who is she friends with in her party? (The idea that evil characters just kill / don't care about the lives of anyone is totally played out and depthless).
7. Sometimes she wistfully thinks of a different career, sort of as a 'what if' reminiscence. What was that other career?
8. She consistently screws something up, something encountered in everyday life. What is it?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Once you've got the personality down, I'd think about some bonds. The church of Loviatar has a habit of spawning secret cults all over the place; you'll probably be able to find some buddies to hook up with in any large town of city.

Also, keep an eye on the laws. It's likely that Loviatar worship will be illegal in some places and fine in others.

And remember to celebrate your holidays! It's Candle Rites on the 12th of every month, which is unique to your church.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

The people above me have some good suggestions. Additionally, for any cleric character, see if you can find sourcebooks that actually give quotes from your churches dogma and work similar statements into your speech from time to time.

Stuff like "Pain tests all but but gives strength of spirit to the hardy and true."

There's some lines of dogma on the Forgotten Realms wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Loviatar

[randomodo]

Also, how evil is the character?

I recall one heretical sect of Loviatar that contended that there is a finite amount of pain in the universe, and pain inflicted upon oneself reduces the amount of pain that others can potentially suffer.

This, admittedly, was under the construct in which you could be one alignment step away from your deity. It's probably not so much a lawful evil and closer to lawful neutral. You're still placating Loviatar by inflicting pain, but you're doing it on yourself.

[Princess]

Evil doesn't necessarily have to a proactive desire to harm others - it just means you consider some options that might scare other people.

Also, with any cleric character, what I usually do is come up with a personality that I could imagine an actual functional adult having, and then I read as much material as I can find about the deity/religion of the cleric, and I brainstorm how to make those mesh without one overwhelming the other.

You could start with just coming up with personality traits, ideals, and flaws without worrying about the cleric part, and go read what you can find about Loviatar and make only necessary adjustments - that way your character isn't just a walking religion, but the faith comes through as well.

[Serket]

She's a LE cleric of Loviatar, goddess of pain and femdom. One of the tenets is that the character self-flagellates during her prayers to get her spells.

Now without getting too magical realm/fetish-y, how can I swing this as a serious character?

On the one hand, everyone above gave solid advice. So that's nice and useful.:smallsmile:

On the other hand, I think your (admirable!) attempt to make a serious character is probably impossible, because the deity fluff is close to nonsensical.
Consider: the dogma says "Kindnesses are the best companions to hurts, and increase the intensity of suffering. Let mercy of sudden abstinence from causing pain and of providing unlooked-for healing come over you seldom, but at whim," which can be rephrased as "create abusive relationships".
It also says "Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it." which is just... weird. Hurt people who want it, hurt people who deserve it, and hurt people because you can hurt them a lot? It's inconsistent. Being nice to masochists is a motivation rather at odds with hurting people who don't want to be hurt.
Also, what about this Goddess is Lawful? :smallconfused:

Why would a person worship this Goddess? A person would have to enjoy inflicting pain. And they would also need to believe pain a sacred thing, in and of itself. Perhaps... perhaps they consider pain to be the most primal sensation, the purest thing there is? "Pain is how you know you're alive". Maybe they think of pain-creation as an art form, and themselves an artist. So that could work, but how does it fit with hurting people just because you can? Gah. It seems like the writer didn't understand BDSM, but put some in anyway, because "mmm, sexy ladies with whips". :smallannoyed:

[Princess]

On the one hand, everyone above gave solid advice. So that's nice and useful.:smallsmile:

On the other hand, I think your (admirable!) attempt to make a serious character is probably impossible, because the deity fluff is close to nonsensical.
Consider: the dogma says "Kindnesses are the best companions to hurts, and increase the intensity of suffering. Let mercy of sudden abstinence from causing pain and of providing unlooked-for healing come over you seldom, but at whim," which can be rephrased as "create abusive relationships".
It also says "Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it." which is just... weird. Hurt people who want it, hurt people who deserve it, and hurt people because you can hurt them a lot? It's inconsistent. Being nice to masochists is a motivation rather at odds with hurting people who don't want to be hurt.
Also, what about this Goddess is Lawful? :smallconfused:

Why would a person worship this Goddess? A person would have to enjoy inflicting pain. And they would also need to believe pain a sacred thing, in and of itself. Perhaps... perhaps they consider pain to be the most primal sensation, the purest thing there is? "Pain is how you know you're alive". Maybe they think of pain-creation as an art form, and themselves an artist. So that could work, but how does it fit with hurting people just because you can? Gah. It seems like the writer didn't understand BDSM, but put some in anyway, because "mmm, sexy ladies with whips". :smallannoyed:

I definitely don't disagree with your points there (I think somebody just thought "Dominatrices follow rules, right? So Lawful?"), but having a personality of the character in mind first would make it much easier to "interpret" a particular Sect of the Church of Loviatar into something you can work with. (A bit like how different groups within real world religions sometimes make seemingly completely different conclusions from the same scripture). Also, if you keep the idea of "1 step away" in mind, that implies there are Lawful Neutral and Just Plain Evil sects within the church.

Maybe the LN wing is all about punishment as an aspect of order and the authors were too busy doing "research" into other things to remember to mention that in the book. Official D&D materials are a starting point, not the end all, be all of playing. (Which the original author of Forgotten Realms, among many other designers, has pointed out several times.) Real religions rarely maintain complete orthodoxy and consistency among all followers, so why wouldn't a fictional church show similar diversity? Unless, of course, your DM has decided that Loviatar's Avatar personally beats people to death if they do things incorrectly, but that would be pretty extreme.

[Ninja_Prawn]

On the one hand, everyone above gave solid advice. So that's nice and useful.:smallsmile:

On the other hand, I think your (admirable!) attempt to make a serious character is probably impossible, because the deity fluff is close to nonsensical.
Consider: the dogma says "Kindnesses are the best companions to hurts, and increase the intensity of suffering. Let mercy of sudden abstinence from causing pain and of providing unlooked-for healing come over you seldom, but at whim," which can be rephrased as "create abusive relationships".
It also says "Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it." which is just... weird. Hurt people who want it, hurt people who deserve it, and hurt people because you can hurt them a lot? It's inconsistent. Being nice to masochists is a motivation rather at odds with hurting people who don't want to be hurt.
Also, what about this Goddess is Lawful? :smallconfused:

Why would a person worship this Goddess? A person would have to enjoy inflicting pain. And they would also need to believe pain a sacred thing, in and of itself. Perhaps... perhaps they consider pain to be the most primal sensation, the purest thing there is? "Pain is how you know you're alive". Maybe they think of pain-creation as an art form, and themselves an artist. So that could work, but how does it fit with hurting people just because you can? Gah. It seems like the writer didn't understand BDSM, but put some in anyway, because "mmm, sexy ladies with whips". :smallannoyed:

Although I agree that overall, the church of Loviatar comes across as "mmm, sexy ladies with whips", I'm not sure your specific criticisms really stack up.

1. What's wrong with an edict to "create abusive relationships"? This is an *evil* church, after all!

2. "Hurt people who want it, hurt people who deserve it, and hurt people because you can hurt them a lot? It's inconsistent." No it's not! Nothing could be more consistent than "the solution to every problem/situation is to hurt people"! Maybe the need to hurt people is more about the Loviatar worshipper than the person being hurt? Like... maybe the whole church is just a thin pretext for sadists to get their kicks while simultaneously being told they're awesome and righteous?

3. "what about this Goddess is Lawful?" She imposes a rigid schedule on her followers. She values discipline ("there is no true punishment if the punisher knows no discipline."). She does not care at all about people having freedoms. She is "calculating and despotic (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Loviatar)".

4. "Why would a person worship this Goddess?" There are plenty of people out there looking for any excuse to hurt others. Loviatar gives them the will and the way. She rewards her faithful - by enduring pain they prove their worthiness and Loviatar respects that. And Loviatar's Mercy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner) really is a thing that works.

[Regulas]

Also keep in mind for an Evil god, your character doesn't necessarily have to know the full truth about the church.

I remember that the lore on the Church of Hextor; often publicly portrays itself as a populist for the greater good organisation "We're the good guys" with only the upper echelons knowing the truth. So you could have a cleric who believes his god/godess isn't even evil, after all an evil god would have no qualms with deceiving you granting you power as it manipulates you into secretly serving it's own goals.

[Serket]

What's wrong with an edict to "create abusive relationships"? This is an *evil* church, after all!

In isolation, nothing. If the writer had only said "evil sadists" and not gone for any consensual BDSM references, there would be no inconsistency and no problem. But, they did. And for someone who practices ethical BDSM, that inconsistency is very very annoying.


Nothing could be more consistent than "the solution to every problem/situation is to hurt people"! Maybe the need to hurt people is more about the Loviatar worshipper than the person being hurt? Like... maybe the whole church is just a thin pretext for sadists to get their kicks while simultaneously being told they're awesome and righteous?
...
There are plenty of people out there looking for any excuse to hurt others. Loviatar gives them the will and the way.

Okay, pure unethical sadism makes sense. But it doesn't help the with the problem of making a serious character. Yes, you can write an out-and-out sadist backed up by divine magic, but they're hardly a protagonist. They're more like a cartoon villain, albeit R-rated.

[Regulas]

In isolation, nothing. If the writer had only said "evil sadists" and not gone for any consensual BDSM references, there would be no inconsistency and no problem. But, they did. And for someone who practices ethical BDSM, that inconsistency is very very annoying.



Okay, pure unethical sadism makes sense. But it doesn't help the with the problem of making a serious character. Yes, you can write an out-and-out sadist backed up by divine magic, but they're hardly a protagonist. They're more like a cartoon villain, albeit R-rated.

To you I would say
Remember that evil doesn't mean stupid, I would generally say that any evil character even a cleric is largely the same as any good character the difference being they won't let morality stop them when making a decision, or they believe something evil is good. To be a protagonist, make your character exactly like a good character but just change specific morals relevant to the church. I know I'm breaking an internet trope here, but even Hitler largely thought what he was doing was for the best of his country.

Also remember being a cleric doesn't mean you are forced into doing things where it would be blatantly detrimental or suicidal. Even serial killers try to keep there activities secret, and I don't think this character would have any issues (especially as lawful) pretending to not be an evil sadist in order to fit in or avoid being burned at the stake (as I opened with Evil doesn't mean stupid).