Werewolves are too weak.

[frogglesmash]

Vampires vs Werewolves is a fairly common trope in fiction, but in d&d if a Vampire and a Werewolf with the same HD totals went toe to toe the Vampire would invariably win. I want to make some changes to Werewolves so they actually pose a meaningful threat to Vampires, and while I've got a couple ideas on how I'd do that, I'd like to see what the playground comes up with first.
Oh, and before anyone says something about Vampires being solitary and Werewolves working in packs I'd like to point out that the Vampire's Create Spawn ability exists and is far superior to the Werewolf's Curse of Lycanthropy ability in terms of both offspring power and control over said offspring.

[Bronk]

Well, you could start by comparing not just HD totals, but CR or ECL, for a more even comparison. Then I'd suggest treating the regular werewolf as a 'spawn' and compare the vampire to the werewolf lord instead.

[Eldan]

Class levels to the werewolf. Or use dire werewolves. They are pretty high up there.

[Tiri]

HD totals are inaccurate, because a vampire has a CR adjustment of +2 and an LA of +8, compared to a werewolf's +2 to CR (which only brings up their CR to their HD anyway) and +2 or +3 LA. It's a little unfair to use HD totals to compare them. Not to mention that the vampire is actually too over-LAed to really be playable, so if you used ECL instead of HD, the werewolf would most likely come out on top. Not so sure about if you used CR, but maybe.

[Troacctid]

The new improved werewolf template from Dreamscarred Press's latest playtest material (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479603-Dreamscarred-Press-Introduces-Lords-of-the-Wild-The-Playtest!) is only +1 ECL and quite solid. With the extra class levels, it should have no trouble standing up to a vampire.

[johnbragg]

ECL is probably your answer.
Your bog-standard Werewolf is a CR 3, 3 HD creature. Vampire Spawn is a 4HD, CR 4 creature.
RAW VAmpire LA is +8, Werewolf LA is +3. So give your Werewolves more class levels than your Vampires. PEople say the Vampire LA is too high, so let's say 3 extra levels if it's the same class.

"Werewolf Lord" with 10 levels of fighter is a CR 14. Compare that to a 7th level Vampire Fighter, and you've got a pretty even match.

[Tiri]

"Werewolf Lord" with 10 levels of fighter is a CR 14. Compare that to a 7th level Vampire Fighter, and you've got a pretty even match.

Even? The werewolf lord already has more HD and BAB just from having more fighter levels, and then he gets an extra 6 RHD on top of that. A 7th level vampire fighter would, first of all, only be CR 9, and even for all its special attacks like Energy and Blood Drain, it can't win with half the BAB and less than half the HP. The vampire might not even manage to hit the werewolf once before getting destroyed.

[stack]

Vampires have a huge list of exploitable weird weaknesses that clever werewolves could leverage as well.

[Fizban]

Vampires vs Werewolves is a fairly common trope in fiction, but in d&d if a Vampire and a Werewolf with the same HD totals went toe to toe the Vampire would invariably win. I want to make some changes to Werewolves so they actually pose a meaningful threat to Vampires, and while I've got a couple ideas on how I'd do that, I'd like to see what the playground comes up with first.
Oh, and before anyone says something about Vampires being solitary and Werewolves working in packs I'd like to point out that the Vampire's Create Spawn ability exists and is far superior to the Werewolf's Curse of Lycanthropy ability in terms of both offspring power and control over said offspring.
The problem has little to do with the hit dice or physical combat (though the Vampire wins there too): it's all about the special abilities. Without immunity to Dominate, the Lycanthrope is literally on a random clock as a single failed save makes them a slave. Without immunity to Energy Drain, the Lycanthrope's natural armor and damage reduction are useless because each hit causes a penalty on all rolls and ticks up to death regardless of hit points. I doubt that much if any of the Vampire vs Werewolf fiction includes at-will Domination attack out to 30' that crushes any mind without fail in 2-4 minutes, or gives their Vampires a wasting death touch that kills any living creature in less than a dozen strikes, nor do I remember many of them pulling the Gaseous Form trick.

The problems are somewhat alleviated if you make the Werewolves what they are: pack hunters. Vampire Domination and Energy Drain only work on a single target at a time, so the wolves only hunt in groups of 4 or more against 1 (one wolf to fail the save, one to stop that guy, and two to fight the vampire). Note that were-Wolves are still getting crushed by the Vamp's physical bonuses and afflicted lycanthropes have lower DR: were-Dire Wolves can match them for strength but that's still barely enough to scratch the DR*, followed by the fast healing, followed by Gaseous Form. Note also that a full Vampire has a minimum of 5 character levels, compared to a were-Dire wolf's 1+6 animal HD, so they're not really wining HD either.

So don't use Vampires, use Vampire Spawn since it's pretty clear that this is much more what the movies and other media are using. They get almost all the same abilities but have several crucial weaknesses: 4 crappy undead hit dice, DR 5/silver which means they and the weres both damage each other, lower AC, and less Energy Drain. Not having the full Vampire's ability to turn into a Dire Wolf better than you also helps. A single were-Wolf is still a losing propsition but could do it with luck, while a pack's got a good shot if they don't botch their saves. A were-Dire Wolf can take out a spawn in a couple hits. The vamp spawn still has tons of spot/listen to notice ambushes and still dominates at-will as it's main attack for a good 30% per round against even the were-Dire, but it's actually a chance of a fight. If you make the Shapechanger subtype grant immunity to Humanoid-only effects (in 3.0, Shapechanger was it's own type and thus did grant that immunity) then a Vampire Spawn vs a pair of Werewolves is a reasonable fight.

It's actually one of those almost eerie things until you remember how much the cultures and games and media all feed off each other. The vampires in media and dnd are taking their cues from the same sources, but since dnd phrases it as "Vampire and Vampire Spawn" rather than "Vampire and Ancient Vampire Lord," people tend to gloss over how the dnd full Vampire template is only supposed to be for the ancient and powerful vampires with the weird esoteric abilities. Anyone with 4HD or less becomes a spawn, and that includes over 90% of the population. The boss at the end of the movie is the only one who uses the dnd Vampire template, all the rest were spawn in dnd terms.

*Unless you rule that DR/silver+ Amulet of Mighty Fists works, in which case you're gonna need a lot of gear.

[Tiri]

The problem has little to do with the hit dice or physical combat (though the Vampire wins there too): it's all about the special abilities. Without immunity to Dominate, the Lycanthrope is literally on a random clock as a single failed save makes them a slave. Without immunity to Energy Drain, the Lycanthrope's natural armor and damage reduction are useless because each hit causes a penalty on all rolls and ticks up to death regardless of hit points. I doubt that much if any of the Vampire vs Werewolf fiction includes at-will Domination attack out to 30' that crushes any mind without fail in 2-4 minutes, or gives their Vampires a wasting death touch that kills any living creature in less than a dozen strikes, nor do I remember many of them pulling the Gaseous Form trick.


Well, I think that the vampire might not win in physical combat. The werewolf is by default a couple of levels ahead and has his wolf/hybrid form with good physical stats. The werewolf might have trouble with Energy Drain, but since he's a couple of Hit Dice ahead and the vampire only has d12 HD and no Con, the werewolf could possibly, especially with a good AC, manage to destroy the vampire before it drains him enough. The werewolf also probably has a pretty good Will save against domination unless the vampire is a Cha-focused character. So, barring Gaseous Form, I would say that the werewolf has at least a 50% chance of beating the vampire. As for Gaseous Form, I think reducing the vampire to that state still counts as a win for the werewolf. The werewolf would have a better chance against unadvanced spawn, though, true.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, no. Equal CR, werewolves send vampires packing. Spamming dominate person is not a good tactic, because the werewolf is under no obligation to sit there and wait for you (and both Alternate Form and gaseous form block the vampire from using the ability) and since giants can become lycanthropes, not all werewolves are subject to the ability to start with. If worst comes to worst, werewolves have scent and can make a decent showing of fighting while blind or while their eyes are averted.

[Âmesang]

Why not join forces? :smalltongue: Vampire Werewolf! (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20070323a)

Then just add the half-dragon template to give yourself Nightbane (http://adventurequest.wikia.com/wiki/Dracopyre) from Adventure Quest.

[KillianHawkeye]

DR 5/silver which means they and the weres both damage each other

Incorrect. Neither the vampire's nor lycanthrope's natural weapons are made of silver. Having a special material-based DR does not give one automatic means of bypassing similar DR.

[Pale Sun]

Use Half-Vampire + Necropolitan for a vampire with a decent LA

[Fizban]

Incorrect. Neither the vampire's nor lycanthrope's natural weapons are made of silver. Having a special material-based DR does not give one automatic means of bypassing similar DR.
I'm getting some deja-vu here. I'm quite sure this is a rule that's been debated to death but I've just re-checked the SRD and Rules Compendium and can't find it in the general DR rules or in the monster entries. Anyone know where I've heard it from then?

Well, I think that the vampire might not win in physical combat. The werewolf is by default a couple of levels ahead and has his wolf/hybrid form with good physical stats. The werewolf might have trouble with Energy Drain, but since he's a couple of Hit Dice ahead and the vampire only has d12 HD and no Con, the werewolf could possibly, especially with a good AC, manage to destroy the vampire before it drains him enough. The werewolf also probably has a pretty good Will save against domination unless the vampire is a Cha-focused character. So, barring Gaseous Form, I would say that the werewolf has at least a 50% chance of beating the vampire. As for Gaseous Form, I think reducing the vampire to that state still counts as a win for the werewolf. The werewolf would have a better chance against unadvanced spawn, though, true.
A standard were-Wolf deals at most 9 damage per natural weapon attack, while a full Vampire has DR 10/silver and magic, it fails utterly regardless of hit dice or anything else, and you've forgotten that the absolute minimum hit dice for a full Vampire is 5HD (and spawn get 4HD), assuming the template was applied by another Vampire (the template can be applied to a 1HD creature legally, but only by fiat rather than Blood Drain). Against the Spawn it has a better chance if it can penetrate the DR (which it apparently cannot via natural weapons), otherwise it's average damage is too low to overcome Fast Healing 2. The standard were-Wolf has a will save of +2, while a Vampire Spawn has a Dominate DC of 14, and even a fiat 1HD Vampire would have DC 12.

If you upgrade to were-Dire the will save is +7, still a 30% chance of failure, though the natural weapons will at least be able to outpace DR+Fast Healing now. Not fast enough to avoid 30% per round failure. Solo fighting a Vampire without Dominate immunity or a silvered greatsword is a bad idea.

Yeah, no. Equal CR, werewolves send vampires packing. Spamming dominate person is not a good tactic, because the werewolf is under no obligation to sit there and wait for you (and both Alternate Form and gaseous form block the vampire from using the ability) and since giants can become lycanthropes, not all werewolves are subject to the ability to start with. If worst comes to worst, werewolves have scent and can make a decent showing of fighting while blind or while their eyes are averted.
Have you actually done any of the math? I'll admit I hadn't considered fighting blind, obvious in retrospect, but they simply cannot afford the miss chance when they already can't keep up enough damage to kill it. A were-Wolf would add 1 class level to match a spawn, or 4 to match a 5HD vampire in CR. With a high will save and some bonus damage I could seem them reaching even, but you aren't sending them packing without blind-Sight or immunity to Dominate. A were-Dire wolf obviously fares far better, but it starts at CR 5 so it only gets 2 levels. Even if the Vampire can't Dominate in Alternate Form they can still turn into the same Dire Wolf form, while retaining better DR, Fast Healing 5, and Energy Drain for 2 negative levels. So unless the were-Dire Wolf has a magic silver weapon or immunity to negative levels, he's screwed.

Considering the OP is looking for Werewolves vs Vampires as portrayed in other media I would assume humanoids are the point, not giants, with kung-fu slams and natural weapons being the order of the day. Sure load them both up with silvered swords and armor and the fight may tip in the wolves' favor, but I don't think that's the target. I maintain that the best plan is to use vampire spawn properly, and give the werewolves innate immunity to humanoid-only effects. Choose Wolf or Dire Wolf depending on who you want to win duels.

[KillianHawkeye]

Incorrect. Neither the vampire's nor lycanthrope's natural weapons are made of silver. Having a special material-based DR does not give one automatic means of bypassing similar DR.


I'm getting some deja-vu here. I'm quite sure this is a rule that's been debated to death but I've just re-checked the SRD and Rules Compendium and can't find it in the general DR rules or in the monster entries. Anyone know where I've heard it from then?

No. There is no debate about this. The rules are RIGHT THERE in the general rules for DR (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction). The glossary of the Monster Manual would be the place to look to find a lot of this kind of useful information.

Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage.

Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

When a damage reduction entry has a dash (-) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.

The lines I've bolded are the only provisions for a creature automatically overcoming any type of damage reduction. If you have DR/magic or DR/epic, you overcome the same type of DR with your natural attacks. If you have an alignment subtype, you overcome DR that is vulnerable to your alignment (this DR is typically possessed by creatures of opposing alignment, see Demons and Devils not overcoming each other's DR even though they're enemies in the Blood War).

Any DR that is requires a particular physical damage type or a special material has no automatic bypass in the rules.

[Tiri]

A standard were-Wolf deals at most 9 damage per natural weapon attack, while a full Vampire has DR 10/silver and magic, it fails utterly regardless of hit dice or anything else, and you've forgotten that the absolute minimum hit dice for a full Vampire is 5HD (and spawn get 4HD), assuming the template was applied by another Vampire (the template can be applied to a 1HD creature legally, but only by fiat rather than Blood Drain).

The werewolf can't simply get a magic silvered weapon because of what, again? If we are assuming he's fighting a vampire of either equal CR or ECL, he will certainly have the wealth to do so.


Even if the Vampire can't Dominate in Alternate Form they can still turn into the same Dire Wolf form, while retaining better DR, Fast Healing 5, and Energy Drain for 2 negative levels. So unless the were-Dire Wolf has a magic silver weapon or immunity to negative levels, he's screwed.


They lose the Energy Drain in an alternate form, and their AC and low hit points don't improve either.

[Fizban]

No. There is no debate about this. The rules are RIGHT THERE
Chill dude, I'm cool with being wrong and I told you I already checked it. Like I said, I've had this come up before, I just know that I wasn't the only one who thought it worked that way. It actually supports my argument since Vampires have the better DR anyway: even if the wolves spend their cash on magic silver weapons, the vampires can spend the extra 2,000 they have left on whatever they want.

The werewolf can't simply get a magic silvered weapon because of what, again? If we are assuming he's fighting a vampire of either equal CR or ECL, he will certainly have the wealth to do so.
Well firstly because it's lame and not what I think the OP is going for, who cares if he's a werewolf if he fights with a sword? Secondly, that depends entirely upon how they're being assigned gear. A 3rd level NPC can just barely afford a +1 silvered sword and a pair of pants, so sure the werewolf could have that and nothing else, and so could the vampire, and the vampire is still superior in strength, natural armor, and dexterity, and has fast healing and can end the fight with a single Dominate. If they're being assigned gear as monsters, because there's a lot of them and the DM doesn't want to wreck the game with excess cash, then the werewolf can't afford a magic silver weapon until CR 7. While the Vampire gets double standard treasure and only needs a non-magic silver weapon, which is cheap even at CR1 (the Spawn gets normal treasure same as the Wolf).

They lose the Energy Drain in an alternate form,


Energy Drain (Su)

Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Alternate Form (Su)

A vampire can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack and dominate ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another or until the next sunrise. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Alternate Form
. . .
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
A full Vampire does not lose Energy Drain in alternate form, and Energy Drain applies to any natural attacks it might have.

and their AC and low hit points don't improve either.
The full Vampire template provides better stats in every category than a were-Wolf, including natural armor and dexterity. Vampires get d12 hit dice, exactly equivalent to the Werewolf's d8+3s: giving the werewolf an extra hit die will allow him to match it. The CR adjustment for Werewolf is exactly the same as that of a full Vampire, meaning they have the same number of hit dice or character levels, meaning no it's not losing on anything. A were-Dire Wolf, using CR comparisons, is the only way the lycanthrope can exceed the hit dice on the Vampire: a were-Dire Wolf has HD7 and CR7 (and higher con), giving it a total of +20 hit points over that of the 5HD Vampire. And not a single one of you has addressed the universal Fast Healing that both full and spawn vampires have. Unless you magically one-round it to death, every single round it's getting +2 or +5 hp more than you. Considering I'm the one actually making all the examples here, I'm quite sure no one else but the OP has actually bothered to make the comparisons along any axis.

I'm sure you can make a lycanthropic character based on HD or CR or something that can beat a vampire of equal whatever in a fair fight. But if you're actually building them as NPCs, or Ao forbid, monsters, it's not going to happen by anything but luck. If you use an extremely specific narrow band of methods (rating based on equal CR, the Werewolf always has a +1 silvered weapon, Werewolf has a specific player character build that gives them a combination of domination immunity or blindsight and extra melee-power, and the Vampire is not allowed any similar Elite status or rebuilding and is stuck with a crappy build), then congratulations you've managed to rig the game. Every other scenario the Werewolf is unambiguously at a massive disadvantage.

So I will reiterate once again: make the wolves immune to Dominate, and save the full Vampire template for the once per campaign boss. Actually there's an even easier fix for the first one: give all Werewolves the Vampire Hunter feat for free, lycanthropes already get a bunch of bonus feats so what's one more? If you run all your NPCs/monsters as PC classed builds in large numbers at mid or higher levels then you've got a completely different problem by the way, and at that point you can swing it either way depending on how much char-op you're willing to put on either side. If it's a PC that you're worried about, Vampire Hunter should be enough, maybe have them take or additionally give them Enduring Life to delay the effects of Negative Levels. Which is followed by Lasting Life (also requires the lame Endurance feat), which basically means you get rid of all your Negative Levels as long as you survive the fight (removing up to 1/round). All those feats are in Libris Mortis if you didn't guess.

[awa]

I agree if the point is to emulate the werewolf vrs vampire feud as depicted in some common media the werewolf needs to be able to do it without items.

Allowing werewolves to be treated as magic beasts when beneficial would protect vrs dominate
allowing them to smell supernatural energies and thus track a vampire back to his coffin no matter his form would give them a way to permakill them.

Now the problem is the vampire has so many options we could just make the werewolf immune to those options but that personally is unsatisfying normally in werewolf vrs vampire scenarios the groups are roughly equal not just that were wolfs are anti vampire specialists. (sometime vampires are better most of the time and werewolves are better on the full moon)

So Id make it so the werewolf can turn into the dire wolf as the default form (maybe only during full moon)
Now only old powerful vampires can face a werewolf head to head so they have to play it smart creating a bunch of expendable spawn and summoned animals to soften them up first hit and run to try and us their fast heal but cant take to long because otherwise the sun rises and the werewolf tracks them down to the lair.